Civil Disobedience Against the Detroit Emergency Manager Pledged

[antongast]

choo-choo trains to nowhere.

You know, I pretty much agree with your broader point about emergency managers, but I don't really understand why your post has a random right-wing anti-transit talking point shoehorned into the middle of it.

[313WX]

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on bankruptcy, which is the alternative.

That's the way it SHOULD be handled anyway

[English]

That's the way it SHOULD be handled anyway

That's the way Detroit's financial situation will likely be handled. We're not the first city to be in this position, and we certainly won't be the last.

[English]

You know, I pretty much agree with your broader point about emergency managers, but I don't really understand why your post has a random right-wing anti-transit talking point shoehorned into the middle of it.

You're right, of course. I'm not against mass transit. Apologies, I was being snarky and mocking the language that a few of the pro-EM posters have used in other contexts.

[Baselinepunk]

"As long as the powers are for exigent circumstances and are reasonable and necessary to serve an important public purpose its constitutional."

I'm not very familiar with the case you're citing as support; in that case did New Jersey loan the State an amount of money that, if the State paid the loan back, would've made New Jersey whole?

I'm getting the feeling that this loan is going to be a BIG issue because [IMHO] cannot come in, take over with an EFM because the City is running a deficit to almost the tune of what the State owes the City.

In addition I posit that there may be a compelling argument that, when citing past poor practices/effectiveness of EM/EFMs in this State, the SCOTUS could rule against the State.

[Baselinepunk]

"As long as the powers are for exigent circumstances and are reasonable and necessary to serve an important public purpose its constitutional."

I'm not very familiar with the case you're citing as support; in that case did New Jersey loan the State an amount of money that, if the State paid the loan back, would've made New Jersey whole?

I'm getting the feeling that this loan is going to be a BIG issue because [IMHO] that State cannot come in, take over with an EFM because the City is running a deficit to almost the tune of what the State owes the City. That's just smells ... really, really bad -- and someone looking to make a name for themselves in the legal profession, would be glad to "go Pro Bono" on the States ass.

In addition I posit that there may be a compelling argument that, when citing past poor practices/effectiveness of EM/EFMs in this State, the SCOTUS could rule against the State.

[michigansheik]

The churches in Detroit, no matter what type [[store front or otherwise) should pay some taxes, not get off scott free. The clergy in Detroit are the first ones in the CAY complaining about something yet they don't pay a dime. If they want to back Detroit and help it, then they should make a sacrifice themselves, just like the City is asking it's employees to do and is asking the citizens to do. Incidentally, I feel that all churches, no matter where they are located, suburbs, city, etc., should pay taxes. I know of one suburb where the church is tax exempt and the large, two story home where the pastor lives with his family is tax exempt as well, that should change.

I agree...if these churches really want to help, pay some taxes and encourage your membership to pay their taxes. someone on another post made a good point why don't the churches work on the murder rate and social fabric issues...maybe there's more money and tv time to fight the efm...

whats the other option to an efm...that should be the discussion not civil disobedience.

if benton harbor had 9 heavy equipment operators for 5 pieces of equipment i can only imagine what kinds of waste is going on in detroit....i will say that in 7 years though my trash has always been picked up...even on the fewer and fewer bulk days...which i think made dumping worse btw.

[mwilbert]

Ultimately, the United States government could use an Emergency Financial Manager appointed by a consortium of our multinational corporate overlords to balance the federal budget and eliminate the debt and the deficit. Wouldn't that be nice? It would solve all of our political issues in DC...

It's just a different situation. Detroit isn't sovereign. The US has no higher level of government to make rules for it or to review its policies. It would be extremely dangerous to install a dictator to run the US for a few years and get things straightened out as there is no one capable of providing effective review of whatever actions such a person might take. Nothing of the kind is true of an EM--they will still be operating within the confines of Michigan and US law and institutions. Nor am I aware of any Federal constitutional right to municipal government. Maybe there is a problem under the Michigan constitution, but, if so, no doubt people will litigate it.

[rjk]

Anyone know what the negative impact on the city/region/state would be if Detroit has to file for Bankruptcy? As far as the cities bond rating isn't it pretty much crapola anyways?

[313WX]

Anyone know what the negative impact on the city/region/state would be if Detroit has to file for Bankruptcy? As far as the cities bond rating isn't it pretty much crapola anyways?

Yes, it would effectively drag down everyone's bond rating.

That's exactly why the EFM was created. Not because the region/state cares about what happens to Detroiters or the city itself [[which has lately been the meme going around), they wouldn't care if Detroit proper slipped into the Detroit river today [[if anything there would be a celebration). All they care about is how a Detroit bankruptcy would impact their financial vitality, because just recently they've magically come to the once considered insane realization that after disinfranchising it for the past 40 years they do need Detroit more than they thought. The EFM is a way to re-structure Detroit while softening the blow on their part.

That said, I say let Detroit go into bankruptcy. It'll give the anti-regionalization zealots around here a wake-up call if nothing else.

[bartock]

That's the way Detroit's financial situation will likely be handled. We're not the first city to be in this position, and we certainly won't be the last.

That's kind of my point...if you are going to do a Chicken Little, end of human rights [[with the usual racial bend) bit with respect to the EFM, I am interested in your position on bankruptcy, which will most certainly be worse.

[313WX]

I am interested in your position on bankruptcy, which will most certainly be worse.

The outcome will pretty much be the same either way for Detroit proper, so I don't see your point here...

[bartock]

The outcome will pretty much be the same either way for Detroit proper, so I don't see your point here...

I am sure there are those who would prefer a bankruptcy out of spite just because a lower bond rating will hurt the state as a whole more [[and, by proxy, Detroit proper more). Anyway the point is why is the possibility of an EFM being slammed when the alternative is bankruptcy? What is the point of treating one as a trampling on the Constitution [[when it clearly isn't), without treating the other the same?

[313WX]

Anyway the point is why is the possibility of an EFM being slammed when the alternative is bankruptcy? What is the point of treating one as a trampling on the Constitution [[when it clearly isn't), without treating the other the same?

How is bankruptcy trampling on the constitution? If you're financially insolvent then that's the proper recourse to take. Remind you, DPS is still buried in debt under a EFM. But now the citizens of Detroit have lost their right to vote for representatives from the community to manage their schools and the teacher's union have effectively lost their right to negotiate their contracts, both of which are quite possibly illegal. And it will stay this way until the job "according to the state" is considered "done" [[which could be never). There's no reason the same thing won't happen to Detroit the municipality. Bankruptcy would be quicker anyway. Judges have better things to do than sit on their ass and dictate what happens in Detroit forever like an EFM does. They'll do what's necessary and move on to their next case. Furthermore, Detroiters will have the choice to decide if they want to file for bankruptcy. No one will come in to tell them when and how to do it.

[bartock]

"if you're financially insolvent then that's the proper recourse to take."

Um, OK.

Detroiters are citizens of the State of Michigan. There is a difference between what folks want versus the End of the Universe, steal my rights take.

[Hermod]

Regional consolidation [[making the 713,000 Detroiters residents of a 4,000,000 resident "Greater Detroit" city) would have a lot more affect on the ability of A-A's in Detroit to make their collective voices heard than a temporary EFM. If you were to consolidate the region, the Detroit political and religious elements would be in court in 24 hours claiming that the change in political boundaries hurts the political power of a minority and they would win. There is a lot of case history on this of cities being barred from annexation of wealthy suburbs because it would change the voting balance to the detriment of A-A's.

[SWMAP]

Furthermore, Detroiters will have the choice to decide if they want to file for bankruptcy. No one will come in to tell them when and how to do it.

Not correct. There are triggers established somewhere in Michigan law that would require a Michigan municipality to file for bankruptcy when certain conditions exist. I believe that not being able to meet payroll is one of them. Another is late bond payments. And, of course, the bankruptcy judge would be in charge then and telling us how to and what to do - and he/she isn't elected by Detroiters, either.

[noise]

What is the point of treating one as a trampling on the Constitution [[when it clearly isn't), without treating the other the same?

I'd argue it's clearly not very clear.

As for myself, I'm just not that interested in dictatorship.

[gnome]

Noise are you supportive of Mr. Obama's recess appointments?

[noise]

Noise are you supportive of Mr. Obama's recess appointments?

No. I'm also not supportive of holding Congress hostage so nothing can move forward or be accomplished. Really, I'm not supportive of many governmental decisions lately. Then again, maybe "supportive" is the wrong word to use. In life, I like to weigh the options.