Judge Rules Tiger Stadium Demolition Can Proceed

[buildingsofdetroit]

any current photos? I've missed out on taking photos myself..

I've been updating daily at www.buildingsofdetroit.com/places/tiger

Just click on demo pix. There are two pages in that gallery. The latest ones are on page 2.

[Fnemecek]

There's much to respond to so let's get started.

1. Planning problem: then, not now; yesterday, not tomorrow. The stadium went vacant in what, 1999? So the 501[[c) organization is established when? 2007 or 2008? The time for this was when people still had fond memories of the stadium, not when they're acclimatized to life in a new facility.

The OTSC was established on May 11, 2007 once an agreement had been formally established with the City of Detroit. Establishment of a separate legal entity to manage the project was a requirement of said agreement in order to avoid commingling of funds.

Prior to that, preservation efforts were undertaken under the auspices of Greater Corktown Development Corporation. These efforts actually began before Tiger Stadium even became vacant. It just took a few years to bring the City of Detroit on board.

And these deadlines - who set them? I understand it was OTSC, who should have no trouble understanding the consequences of missing them.

The deadlines were set as part of the overall agreement between the City and the OTSC. Like any agreement, there are various provisions - such as notice to the other parties - before various things are done. It's because this notice wasn't given that caused the demolition to be termed a suprise.

2. Fundrasing problem: lack of equity. Although we have heard about "earmarks" [[under attack in the Senate) and "tax credits," [[which have to be sold to a discount if there is anyone to buy them),

The earmark was passed by both houses of Congress and signed into law by the President last March. I don't know what attacks you are referring to, but if someone wanted to stop the earmark it would neccessitate another law being passed by the both houses of Congress and the President signing it to void the first one. That is extremely unlikely.

Tax credits can either be sold at a discount for upfront cash or retained until the entity files it annual tax return. There's never been a case of someone not being able to find a buyer for a tax credit of this size. The insinuation that the OTSC might not be able to find one is simply ridiculous.

3. Advocacy problem[[s): "you don't want to buy my vacuum cleaners? Then you're an idiot." Where to even start on advocacy? Let's begin with attacking the city and its various agencies while you are trying to negotiate with one of them [[this goes for people in OTSC and people allied with it).

Please name one person affiated with the OTSC who publicly said anything negative about the DEGC prior to the decision to demolish.

The fact of the matter is that the OTSC paid ball very nicely with the three Mayors of Detroit, the City Council and the DEGC - only to have the proverbial rug pulled out from under them. This fact does not inspire anyone else to treat the DEGC as anything other a schoolyard bully.

PREACH. Of course, instead of looking at that objectively, someone is going to look for a typo or some timeline point that you may have gotten wrong and focus on that instead.

Don't worry. I can correct your spelling, Kraig, without losing focus on the underlying fact that you have very little understanding of the subject matter and critical thinking skills can be summed up as " 2 + 2 = asparagus".

[kraig]

There's much to respond to so let's get started.

The OTSC was established on May 11, 2007 once an agreement had been formally established with the City of Detroit. Establishment of a separate legal entity to manage the project was a requirement of said agreement in order to avoid commingling of funds.

Prior to that, preservation efforts were undertaken under the auspices of Greater Corktown Development Corporation. These efforts actually began before Tiger Stadium even became vacant. It just took a few years to bring the City of Detroit on board.

The deadlines were set as part of the overall agreement between the City and the OTSC. Like any agreement, there are various provisions - such as notice to the other parties - before various things are done. It's because this notice wasn't given that caused the demolition to be termed a suprise.

The earmark was passed by both houses of Congress and signed into law by the President last March. I don't know what attacks you are referring to, but if someone wanted to stop the earmark it would neccessitate another law being passed by the both houses of Congress and the President signing it to void the first one. That is extremely unlikely.

Tax credits can either be sold at a discount for upfront cash or retained until the entity files it annual tax return. There's never been a case of someone not being able to find a buyer for a tax credit of this size. The insinuation that the OTSC might not be able to find one is simply ridiculous.

Please name one person affiated with the OTSC who publicly said anything negative about the DEGC prior to the decision to demolish.

The fact of the matter is that the OTSC paid ball very nicely with the three Mayors of Detroit, the City Council and the DEGC - only to have the proverbial rug pulled out from under them. This fact does not inspire anyone else to treat the DEGC as anything other a schoolyard bully.

Don't worry. I can correct your spelling, Kraig, without losing focus on the underlying fact that you have very little understanding of the subject matter and critical thinking skills can be summed up as " 2 + 2 = asparagus".

By all means, correct my spelling, after you've "paid ball" as you put it. I understand that the OTSC blew it. I understand that if someone wants a 33 million dollar project, treating that project like a hobby that you get around to in your spare time is not the way to go about it. I understand that there was practically little to no activity between the last time the OTSC went to Council with their hats in their hands and the point to which the DEGC voted to tear the stadium down. I understand that the OTSC took for granted that Cockrel was going to remain the mayor and there was not a sense of urgency to get the deal done once the OTSC had a friendly face on the 11th floor of the CAYMC. I understand that the rest of the stadium is being torn down. I understand that someone like you isn't going to learn from this and come better prepared when another opportunity to preserve something comes along. I understand that, instead, someone like you will make the same mistakes and blame the same results on others.

[HazenPingree]

By all means, correct my spelling, after you've "paid ball" as you put it. I understand that the OTSC blew it. I understand that if someone wants a 33 million dollar project, treating that project like a hobby that you get around to in your spare time is not the way to go about it. I understand that there was practically little to no activity between the last time the OTSC went to Council with their hats in their hands and the point to which the DEGC voted to tear the stadium down. I understand that the OTSC took for granted that Cockrel was going to remain the mayor and there was not a sense of urgency to get the deal done once the OTSC had a friendly face on the 11th floor of the CAYMC. I understand that the rest of the stadium is being torn down. I understand that someone like you isn't going to learn from this and come better prepared when another opportunity to preserve something comes along. I understand that, instead, someone like you will make the same mistakes and blame the same results on others.

Kraig, I think you are being pretty disrespectful to a wonderful group of amazing people. .

You must understand that the people fighting for the stadium were HARD WORKING DETROIT residents. My dad, who works at least 40 hours a week and is on many non-profit boards, managed to carve out time each and every week to work on this project. I can vouch for it, I saw him do it. Calling this a non-serious "hobby" is insulting. These were dedicated DETROIT volunteers who worked their asses off. George Jackson, a Southfield resident, gets paid a hefty salary to disrupt the only major non-governmental development project in town, while an all volunteer group is trying to develop what would have been a city park and museum and gets city support from ONE council member. These were hardworking folks who had a passion and made time for it.

And I don't think it is fair to think that the OTSC was ever sitting pretty. They worked tirelessly to get funds. I myself was working on some grants the Friday of demolition. These things are slow. George Jackson himself woud know, he took how many years to piece together the Book-Cadillac deal?

Also, Ken Cockrel was not friendly to this deal. In fact, it seems that he and Bing are BOTH in George Jackson's pocket.

Please be realistic. George Jackson NEVER wanted this to work. I think that once he saw that the Stadium deal was ACTUALLY going to work, he freaked out and pushed the red button. The DEGC were the bad guys, not the OTSC.

Taking a while to do volunteer economic development should not be a crime. Last time I checked what IS inexcusable is demolishing a building when:

-A non-profit is paying for security
-There are bigger and worse buildings to be demolished [[lee plaza?! Packard?)
-There is a plan that will EVENTUALLY come through
-There is tremendous neighborhood support for saving it
-There is no city-generated development plan for the site
-The building is extremely historic

Either the DEGC is the most spiteful organization I have ever seen, or there is a VERY dirty rat somewhere.

[Melocoton]

Taking a while to do volunteer economic development should not be a crime. Last time I checked what IS inexcusable is demolishing a building when:
-A non-profit is paying for security
-There are bigger and worse buildings to be demolished [[lee plaza?! Packard?)
-There is a plan that will EVENTUALLY come through
-There is tremendous neighborhood support for saving it
-There is no city-generated development plan for the site
-The building is extremely historic
Either the DEGC is the most spiteful organization I have ever seen, or there is a VERY dirty rat somewhere.

Well put andylinn. Have you tried to publish something along these lines in one of our two newspapers? Perhaps in one of the opinion pages that the Freep guy was talking up the other day. Someone needs to light a fire under some enterprising reporter on the apparent dirty dealing here..

[kraig]

Kraig, I think you are being pretty disrespectful to a wonderful group of amazing people. .

You must understand that the people fighting for the stadium were HARD WORKING DETROIT residents. My dad, who works at least 40 hours a week and is on many non-profit boards, managed to carve out time each and every week to work on this project. I can vouch for it, I saw him do it. Calling this a non-serious "hobby" is insulting. These were dedicated DETROIT volunteers who worked their asses off. George Jackson, a Southfield resident, gets paid a hefty salary to disrupt the only major non-governmental development project in town, while an all volunteer group is trying to develop what would have been a city park and museum and gets city support from ONE council member. These were hardworking folks who had a passion and made time for it.

And I don't think it is fair to think that the OTSC was ever sitting pretty. They worked tirelessly to get funds. I myself was working on some grants the Friday of demolition. These things are slow. George Jackson himself woud know, he took how many years to piece together the Book-Cadillac deal?

Also, Ken Cockrel was not friendly to this deal. In fact, it seems that he and Bing are BOTH in George Jackson's pocket.

Please be realistic. George Jackson NEVER wanted this to work. I think that once he saw that the Stadium deal was ACTUALLY going to work, he freaked out and pushed the red button. The DEGC were the bad guys, not the OTSC.

Taking a while to do volunteer economic development should not be a crime. Last time I checked what IS inexcusable is demolishing a building when:

-A non-profit is paying for security
-There are bigger and worse buildings to be demolished [[lee plaza?! Packard?)
-There is a plan that will EVENTUALLY come through
-There is tremendous neighborhood support for saving it
-There is no city-generated development plan for the site
-The building is extremely historic

Either the DEGC is the most spiteful organization I have ever seen, or there is a VERY dirty rat somewhere.

I don't think I was being disrespectful at all. You just didn't like my comments. I've posted on either this thread or one of the others that Thom Linn worked his ass off. The problem was the majority of the OTSC didn't do much of anything. I understand you not wanting to say that, but, I have no problem saying it. Kathy Wendler and the Southwest Detroit Business Association have had Ken Cockrel and the City planning Commission in their back pocket for years, and you know this to be true. Too bad, she barely did more than show up at a few hearings. Had she and most of the others put in the kind of effort that your father did, things probably would have worked out differently. Now, I know you're going to defend her and the others out of loyalty. But, you know that's as true as the fact that the rest of the stadium is coming down.

[Beech Cricker]

Andy, thanks for your detailed post in clearing the air. There is just so much misinformation out there.

And yes, the real story of Tiger Stadium's fate needs to be told but I really doubt anyone from the mainstream media will take that on, for whatever reason. At least they haven't to date.

[kraig]

Andy, thanks for your detailed post in clearing the air. There is just so much misinformation out there.

And yes, the real story of Tiger Stadium's fate needs to be told but I really doubt anyone from the mainstream media will take that on, for whatever reason. At least they haven't to date.

The real story is being told. People just don't like what that story is. The OTSC had their chance and they blew it, period. If the DEGC in any way violated the agreement between themselves and OTSC, then the OTSC would have been screaming to the heavens and telling every tv and newspaper reporter that put a camera or microphone in the faces of the Tiger Stadium mourners over the entire week of this ordeal about it. Andy is too emotional right now to see things the way it is. While Andy is close to a member of the OTSC, an actual member of the OTSC, the one who signed the paperwork that incorporated the OTSC, has publicly stated that George Jackson did more than anyone else to help the OTSC. Revisionist history isn't going to help prepare anyone for future endeavors of this magnitude. Even by his own recollection, Andy proved my point. A 33 million dollar preservation project is not a project that you can manage to "carve time out for". You carve time out to collect stamps or coins. You carve time out to go to the gym or plant a garden. No one carves out time for a development project, that's a full time gig if ever there was one. Reality needs to set in on everyone.

[Beech Cricker]

While Andy is close to a member of the OTSC, an actual member of the OTSC, the one who signed the paperwork that incorporated the OTSC, has publicly stated that George Jackson did more than anyone else to help the OTSC.

I find this hard to believe unless it came from one particular person who comes to mind that likely has/had ulterior motives. Being that this "actual member of the OTSC" publicly stated this you can reveal his/her name, yes?

[Beech Cricker]

[quote=kraig;32102]The real story is being told. People just don't like what that story is. The OTSC had their chance and they blew it, period. If the DEGC in any way violated the agreement between themselves and OTSC, then the OTSC would have been screaming to the heavens and telling every tv and newspaper reporter that put a camera or microphone in the faces of the Tiger Stadium mourners over the entire week of this ordeal about it. [quote]

And I'll say the agreement was a joke, completely one-sided in favor of the DEGC. The stance was basically sign the agreement or the Stadium is gone. Period. This is akin to having a gun being placed to your head. Is that really negotiating in good faith? Is that promoting development in the city? I think not.

[HazenPingree]

The real story is being told. People just don't like what that story is. The OTSC had their chance and they blew it, period. If the DEGC in any way violated the agreement between themselves and OTSC, then the OTSC would have been screaming to the heavens and telling every tv and newspaper reporter that put a camera or microphone in the faces of the Tiger Stadium mourners over the entire week of this ordeal about it. Andy is too emotional right now to see things the way it is. While Andy is close to a member of the OTSC, an actual member of the OTSC, the one who signed the paperwork that incorporated the OTSC, has publicly stated that George Jackson did more than anyone else to help the OTSC. Revisionist history isn't going to help prepare anyone for future endeavors of this magnitude. Even by his own recollection, Andy proved my point. A 33 million dollar preservation project is not a project that you can manage to "carve time out for". You carve time out to collect stamps or coins. You carve time out to go to the gym or plant a garden. No one carves out time for a development project, that's a full time gig if ever there was one. Reality needs to set in on everyone.

which member of the OTSC are you talking about? Beech is correct, the agreement was "sign this or we tear it down now," and it was 100% one sided in favor of the DEGC.

The DEGC did nothing but toss road blocks in the way of the project. If they really wanted it done, they would have helped the conservancy.

What exactly is the point of an "economic development agency" anyway? oooh yeah... now I remember: the point of an economic development agency is to set up road blocks for development projects and to demolish buildings. Good work DEGC. A+.

[HazenPingree]

kraig, are you thinking of the mass email by Jeff Wattrick?

Although it wasn't visible to me, I was informed it was sarcasm.

[Novine]

"No one carves out time for a development project, that's a full time gig if ever there was one. Reality needs to set in on everyone."

There are dozens of people on the DEGC staff who are getting well-paid to do this kind of work. How many fingers were lifted in the DEGC offices to assist this project?

[Tigersfan]

"That reminds me: They finished demolishing old Tiger Stadium. It's now an expanse of depressing rubble and debris, a city block in ruins. Meaning it now looks like most every other block in downtown Detroit."

http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/story/1096120.html

[kraig]

which member of the OTSC are you talking about? Beech is correct, the agreement was "sign this or we tear it down now," and it was 100% one sided in favor of the DEGC.

The DEGC did nothing but toss road blocks in the way of the project. If they really wanted it done, they would have helped the conservancy.

What exactly is the point of an "economic development agency" anyway? oooh yeah... now I remember: the point of an economic development agency is to set up road blocks for development projects and to demolish buildings. Good work DEGC. A+.

Everyone knows that the DEGC didn't want the project going through. So wouldn't that put the onus on the OTSC to make sure that they didn't give the DEGC any opening to torpedo the project?

[kraig]

kraig, are you thinking of the mass email by Jeff Wattrick?

Although it wasn't visible to me, I was informed it was sarcasm.

The one I'm referring to is somewhere on DetroitYes. It didn't appear as sarcasm to me.

[kraig]

"No one carves out time for a development project, that's a full time gig if ever there was one. Reality needs to set in on everyone."

There are dozens of people on the DEGC staff who are getting well-paid to do this kind of work. How many fingers were lifted in the DEGC offices to assist this project?

No one is saying that the DEGC is without fault. But the responsibility is always on the developer, which was the OTSC in this case, to get things done.

And as far as all of this the OTSC had a gun to their head crap, the OTSC chose to try to develop Tiger Stadium. Now, if there is any part of the agreement, and it takes two or more parties to reach an agreement [[so remember the OTSC agreed when the option was there to walk away), that was violated by the DEGC. The OTSC would have and should have been screaming to high heaven that the DEGC was violating the agreement. That hasn't happened.

[kraig]

"The problem was the majority of the OTSC didn't do much of anything."

You would think that Andy would have made a point to dispute this statement. Sometimes silence speaks volumes.

[Novine]

Or he has a life which doesn't allow him to post dozens of times to the same thread like others do on here?

[ghettopalmetto]

Everyone knows that the DEGC didn't want the project going through. So wouldn't that put the onus on the OTSC to make sure that they didn't give the DEGC any opening to torpedo the project?

The property is owned by the City of Detroit. How could the onus possibly be on OTSC???

The onus was on the City of Detroit to maintain its own property and utilize it in a responsible manner. The onus was on the DEGC to commit to "economic growth". Fail and Fail.

[kraig]

Or he has a life which doesn't allow him to post dozens of times to the same thread like others do on here?

Whoooeeee. A zinger, go congratulate yourself.

If he was able to respond to the rest of the post, he could have responded to that.

[kraig]

The property is owned by the City of Detroit. How could the onus possibly be on OTSC???

The onus was on the City of Detroit to maintain its own property and utilize it in a responsible manner. The onus was on the DEGC to commit to "economic growth". Fail and Fail.

Because the OTSC approached the DEGC to develop Tiger Stadium and had reached an agreement with the DEGC to develop Tiger Stadium. The Onus is on both parties to hold up their respective ends of the agreement, and since part of making payments were to be made by the OTSC, then the onus was on the OTSC to make them.

[ghettopalmetto]

Because the OTSC approached the DEGC to develop Tiger Stadium and had reached an agreement with the DEGC to develop Tiger Stadium. The Onus is on both parties to hold up their respective ends of the agreement, and since part of making payments were to be made by the OTSC, then the onus was on the OTSC to make them.

The OTSC had no legal authority to prevent demolition, as they were not the property owners. The best they could ever hope to do was negotiate in good faith, but DEGC always held the cards, and OTSC knew that.

I believe the people on this forum who were on the OTSC will be more than happy to tell you that they made the requisite payments. Demolition was not the result of late payments by OTSC, anyway, but the result of a short-sighted misguided de facto policy of pre-ordained demolition enforced by DEGC.

[kraig]

The OTSC had no legal authority to prevent demolition, as they were not the property owners. The best they could ever hope to do was negotiate in good faith, but DEGC always held the cards, and OTSC knew that.

I believe the people on this forum who were on the OTSC will be more than happy to tell you that they made the requisite payments. Demolition was not the result of late payments by OTSC, anyway, but the result of a short-sighted misguided de facto policy of pre-ordained demolition enforced by DEGC.

Scorpion and the frog. Did the DEGC do one thing that wasn't expected of them?

[Beech Cricker]

Scorpion and the frog. Did the DEGC do one thing that wasn't expected of them?

Uh, yeah--aren't they charged with promoting development in the city? They did just the opposite.