Judge Rules Tiger Stadium Demolition Can Proceed

[kraig]

"Is there a significant amount of money left in the OTSC? Why not use the remaining funds to maintain the baseball field and plant a few trees? I'd donate again to that cause."

What makes you think that the DEGC would let that happen? They have no interest in letting anyone have use of the site.

They publicly admitted yesterday that they have no developers lined up for the site.

Tiger Stadium earmark still could be spent

Associated Press

Detroit -- A $3.8 million federal earmark intended to help save Tiger Stadium may end up being spent even if nothing is left of the stadium.
U.S. Sen. Carl Levin said Tuesday his earmark was designated for "preservation and redevelopment of a public park and related business activities" in Detroit's Corktown neighborhood.
The Michigan Democrat says even if the building is gone, the money still would be available for a new redevelopment plan by the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy involving the ball field.
Board member Gary Gillette says the group hasn't decided its plans.
Levin's office didn't know how long the money would be available or what happens if it isn't spent.
Crews began leveling the stadium Monday. The ballpark opened in 1912, and the Tigers departed in 1999.




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© Copyright 2008 The Detroit News. All rights reserved.





Your still probably 100% accurate.

[EastsideAl]

I've stayed away from this topic because just thinking about it made me furious, but now that the deed is practically done, and I've actually witnessed it with my own eyes, I just have to say: what an incredibly stupid waste. And for what? Another nice big vacant lot? What the hell sort of "progress" is that? Is that really what our city needed? Is that really going to somehow improve or add to the lives of the people of this poor struggling city?

I actually thought that the Navin Field idea was pretty inspired, a good way to save at least the oldest most historic part of a place many people loved, and size it so that it could be put it back into productive use. All at little or no cost to the city. There was a little hand-written sign stuck to the fence there that really said it all: "more vision less demolition." Unfortunately, the city government's buddies don't make any green off of "vision."

So they tear out or demolish by neglect the pieces of our urban fabric, with no plans to replace them, just to line someone's pockets, and to prove, I guess, just how empty, vacant, useless, and stupid a city can become.

[buildingsofdetroit]

Comerica Park has all the atmosphere of a suburban shopping mall food court.

Haha. Word. That's the perfect way of describing it. But that's what the people want these days. No use in crying over spilled Tiger Stadium at this point.

[Huggybear]

Right, don't cry over spilled milk, waste no introspection on past mistakes, and wait for this to happen again and again and again. Then bitch about it, blame others, and call people names.

Tiger Stadium is an excellent case study - a project where OTSC and its supporters need to own up to their own [[1) poor planning; [[2) largely ineffective fundraising and organization; and [[3) poor advocacy. Each of these teaches a lesson. And until the self-styled "preservationists" learn the lessons, they are going to be pwned by "The Man."

Let's take those in turn.

1. Planning problem: then, not now; yesterday, not tomorrow. The stadium went vacant in what, 1999? So the 501[[c) organization is established when? 2007 or 2008? The time for this was when people still had fond memories of the stadium, not when they're acclimatized to life in a new facility. And these deadlines - who set them? I understand it was OTSC, who should have no trouble understanding the consequences of missing them. "Surprise" vote to demolish? Is it a surprise if you stop paying the mortgage and get foreclosed?

Planning lesson: Get yourselves in gear with a proactive plan for your list of endangered sites and start organizing to attract businesses to your projects. Yesterday. Don't set overambitious goals and fail - it destroys your credibility.

2. Fundrasing problem: lack of equity. Although we have heard about "earmarks" [[under attack in the Senate) and "tax credits," [[which have to be sold to a discount if there is anyone to buy them), isn't the real reason no one took the OTSC project seriously that there was no equity in the project? The cash ended up being, what, less than 1/20 of the project cost? That's not even enough equity to buy a bungalow on a subprime mortgage. And in light of this, "working with" the city, or DEGC, or whomever is really just a way of saying "hey, we have this great idea - but we want you to fund it - and possibly to forego other things to do so" That's no different from every other redevelopment idea. Unfunded ideas are like belly buttons: everybody has one.

Fundraising lesson: don't limit your organization's composition to "smart people." Expand it to "rich people." Smart people are often poor [[ask everyone working at a nonprofit), and rich people are often... well, not smart. Don't emulate the capitalization of others who have tried and failed.

3. Advocacy problem[[s): "you don't want to buy my vacuum cleaners? Then you're an idiot." Where to even start on advocacy? Let's begin with attacking the city and its various agencies while you are trying to negotiate with one of them [[this goes for people in OTSC and people allied with it). If DEGC is holding the keys to the site [[and really to any gap funding that is available), how intelligent is it to call it incompetent, duplicitous, monstrous, etc.? If you were DEGC, why would you bother with anyone who had little money and but a big mouth? Went to City Council to get your way? How about over to Wayne County Circuit Court. That's not partnership, it's blatant antagonism and the strategy of a child who doesn't get what he wants from dad, so he goes to mom.

Advocacy lesson: understand your target audience, understand what it responds to, and make the sale.

And the advocacy issues don't stop there - it would be one thing if Jackson hated the project [[or his board did) - but OTSC failed as well to make the City Council or Judge Edwards see the light. Judge Edwards determined that it was not overwhelmingly likely that the OTSC project would succeed.

All we hear from the OTSC set is "so and so lacks vision." The real problem is that OTSC lacked a vision it could sell to fans, financiers, or the the powers that be.

[kraig]

Right, don't cry over spilled milk, waste no introspection on past mistakes, and wait for this to happen again and again and again. Then bitch about it, blame others, and call people names.

Tiger Stadium is an excellent case study - a project where OTSC and its supporters need to own up to their own [[1) poor planning; [[2) largely ineffective fundraising and organization; and [[3) poor advocacy. Each of these teaches a lesson. And until the self-styled "preservationists" learn the lessons, they are going to be pwned by "The Man."

Let's take those in turn.

1. Planning problem: then, not now; yesterday, not tomorrow. The stadium went vacant in what, 1999? So the 501[[c) organization is established when? 2007 or 2008? The time for this was when people still had fond memories of the stadium, not when they're acclimatized to life in a new facility. And these deadlines - who set them? I understand it was OTSC, who should have no trouble understanding the consequences of missing them. "Surprise" vote to demolish? Is it a surprise if you stop paying the mortgage and get foreclosed?

Planning lesson: Get yourselves in gear with a proactive plan for your list of endangered sites and start organizing to attract businesses to your projects. Yesterday. Don't set overambitious goals and fail - it destroys your credibility.

2. Fundrasing problem: lack of equity. Although we have heard about "earmarks" [[under attack in the Senate) and "tax credits," [[which have to be sold to a discount if there is anyone to buy them), isn't the real reason no one took the OTSC project seriously that there was no equity in the project? The cash ended up being, what, less than 1/20 of the project cost? That's not even enough equity to buy a bungalow on a subprime mortgage. And in light of this, "working with" the city, or DEGC, or whomever is really just a way of saying "hey, we have this great idea - but we want you to fund it - and possibly to forego other things to do so" That's no different from every other redevelopment idea. Unfunded ideas are like belly buttons: everybody has one.

Fundraising lesson: don't limit your organization's composition to "smart people." Expand it to "rich people." Smart people are often poor [[ask everyone working at a nonprofit), and rich people are often... well, not smart. Don't emulate the capitalization of others who have tried and failed.

3. Advocacy problem[[s): "you don't want to buy my vacuum cleaners? Then you're an idiot." Where to even start on advocacy? Let's begin with attacking the city and its various agencies while you are trying to negotiate with one of them [[this goes for people in OTSC and people allied with it). If DEGC is holding the keys to the site [[and really to any gap funding that is available), how intelligent is it to call it incompetent, duplicitous, monstrous, etc.? If you were DEGC, why would you bother with anyone who had little money and but a big mouth? Went to City Council to get your way? How about over to Wayne County Circuit Court. That's not partnership, it's blatant antagonism and the strategy of a child who doesn't get what he wants from dad, so he goes to mom.

Advocacy lesson: understand your target audience, understand what it responds to, and make the sale.

And the advocacy issues don't stop there - it would be one thing if Jackson hated the project [[or his board did) - but OTSC failed as well to make the City Council or Judge Edwards see the light. Judge Edwards determined that it was not overwhelmingly likely that the OTSC project would succeed.

All we hear from the OTSC set is "so and so lacks vision." The real problem is that OTSC lacked a vision it could sell to fans, financiers, or the the powers that be.

PREACH. Of course, instead of looking at that objectively, someone is going to look for a typo or some timeline point that you may have gotten wrong and focus on that instead.

[Blarf]

I love Comerica Park bashing. I can't stand that place. What a waste. If they actually did Comerica Park right, it could have been awesome.

The design is horrible, it's bland, it's boring. They incorporate NOTHING of old Tiger Stadium into the design. They tried with the flagpole, but couldn't even manage that. Than they build the fence in so the fake one isn't even on the field anymore.

The upper deck is too far away. There is no shade. The Ferris wheel is retarded.

The fountain in center field is tacky. Ohhhh, it erupts water when the Tigers hit a home run, how original!

The loud speakers blast a sound clip of Tiger growl whenever they threaten a run. Stupid and not intimidating.

And on top of all that, we have these ugly giant tiger and baseball bat statues on the exterior. The place looks like a cheap circus.

[Danny]

So long Tiger Stadium and thanks for 90 years of memories.

WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET!

That's what happens if white folks left Detroit.

[kraig]

So long Tiger Stadium and thanks for 90 years of memories.

WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET!

That's what happens if white folks left Detroit.

Huh? What?

[rjlj]

I don't think Comerica Park is that bad, but feel there could have some design improvements. As much as I want to see a new hockey arena, I am fearful of what the Ilitchs come up with. I feel their taste in design can be summed up as being gaudy.

[ghettopalmetto]

I don't think Comerica Park is that bad, but feel there could have some design improvements. As much as I want to see a new hockey arena, I am fearful of what the Ilitchs come up with. I feel their taste in design can be summed up as being gaudy.

You mean the people who sell $5 ready-to-go "pizzas" are tasteless? Say it isn't so!

[EastsideAl]

Comerica is ugly, tacky, soulless, and worse than that, a pretty lousy place to watch a baseball game. I went once when the place first opened, and again with a friend when the team was in the pennant race a few years ago, which only confirmed my first impression. I won't be going back.

I was in Tiger Stadium hundreds of times from the time I was 5 years old, and looked forward to each and every visit. The place had history, atmosphere, and the best close-in views of the game of any park in baseball. Those who dismiss its architecture, or take the passion of us fans for the place as mere nostalgia, know nothing about watching actual baseball games. The only real problem the place had was all of those posts. But then I notice that the Texas Rangers built their faux-historical ballpark to actually duplicate the right field stands at Tiger Stadium, posts and all.

I might not object to the new ballpark so much had they built something with some historical flavor or character, and had designed it with the actual viewing of baseball games in mind [[although I still would object to the final, ridiculously wasteful and unnecessary, destruction of Tiger Stadium). Instead the Tigers seemed to have gone out of their way to avoid nearly any feel of the old ballpark or reference to the history of the team there - almost like the place is a big "F_U" to those who loved the old stadium. Other teams, like Texas and Baltimore, went out of their way to build ballparks that had some reference to the history of the game, and many new stadia, like Baltimore's, were built to fit in with and enhance the urban fabric and feel of a big city. But what we got was a shining new suburban shopping mall food court of a ballpark, which is cookie-cutter bland in pretty much every respect, and, worst of all, where the game itself is only a rumor from many of the seats.

[Flanders]

Comerica is ugly, tacky, soulless, and worse than that, a pretty lousy place to watch a baseball game. I went once when the place first opened, and again with a friend when the team was in the pennant race a few years ago, which only confirmed my first impression. I won't be going back.

I was in Tiger Stadium hundreds of times from the time I was 5 years old, and looked forward to each and every visit. The place had history, atmosphere, and the best close-in views of the game of any park in baseball. Those who dismiss its architecture, or take the passion of us fans for the place as mere nostalgia, know nothing about watching actual baseball games. The only real problem the place had was all of those posts. But then I notice that the Texas Rangers built their faux-historical ballpark to actually duplicate the right field stands at Tiger Stadium, posts and all.

I might not object to the new ballpark so much had they built something with some historical flavor or character, and had designed it with the actual viewing of baseball games in mind [[although I still would object to the final, ridiculously wasteful and unnecessary, destruction of Tiger Stadium). Instead the Tigers seemed to have gone out of their way to avoid nearly any feel of the old ballpark or reference to the history of the team there - almost like the place is a big "F_U" to those who loved the old stadium. Other teams, like Texas and Baltimore, went out of their way to build ballparks that had some reference to the history of the game, and many new stadia, like Baltimore's, were built to fit in with and enhance the urban fabric and feel of a big city. But what we got was a shining new suburban shopping mall food court of a ballpark, which is cookie-cutter bland in pretty much every respect, and, worst of all, where the game itself is only a rumor from many of the seats.

Likewise, I went to a game at Tiger Stadium in it's final year 1999, and then a game at CoPa in 2000. It was so alien to me, being seated so distant from the field, and I resented all of the references, kiosks, and banners to Tigers teams and players of the past, who never played there. I had no emotional connection to the team or the park, might as well have been at a Rockies/Marlins game. I have never gone back, although I have warmed up to the Tigers' teams since '05, of course.

[kraig]

I bet there are going to be some grandchildren and great-grandchildren of some of you posters that say you hate Comerica Park that are going to form a conservancy to save it decades from now.

[Novine]

I don't normally comment on the TS versus CoPa debate because the Tigers were never going to play again at TS and we're stuck with CoPa. But amen to the comments about the experience. I wouldn't be bothered by the merry-go-round and fountains and all the other bric-a-brac if I could get a decent seat without having to pay a gazillion bucks. Anything on the second deck sucks. There's some decent seats in the outfield but even in the early evening in the summer, you get fried by the sun. Plus. there's too few of them. At TS, you were right up on top of the field. At CoPA, not. I don't understand the obsession with the poles. I went to dozens of games at TS and never sat behind a pole. I'm sure it sucked if you did but how many people really had an obstructed view? Couldn't they have replicated some of that experience with modern engineering? If you're going to CoPa and don't care about the baseball, maybe none of this matters. To anyone wanting to enjoy the game on the field, the experience is subpar.

[R8RBOB]

I stated in an earlier post that I was in the minority about the end of Tiger Stadium. I support the decision to tear the remaining structure that is currently standing. No where in the US has a former baseball or football stadium has been used for something other than an event. Stadiums serve one purpose: to host events. The OTSC and groups before them were thinking with their hearts, not with their heads. Like most of you I don't support a vacant lot. I do understand the frustration about removing the stadium and having nothing come behind it.

Yesterday, I was driving west on Joy Road where I came across a huge lot of land which once was the Herman Gardens projects. For anyone who knows the "D" know about Herman Gardens.[[I can remember the Southfield bus going thru the projects) I remember how TPTB tore down all the structures on that land and there was promises to build new affordable houses on the land. This was back in the 90's and yet the land is still empty. Because of this non-development, the buildings on Joy that once were businesses closes their doors and the buildings have gone into decay. The gas station on the corner Southfield and Joy: closed and also in decay.

I said Tiger Stadium should have been torn down 9 years ago. I should have added that there should have been a real plan to develop the property after the Tigers left. The City, Mike Ilitch, anyone who had something to do with Tiger Stadium is at fault for letting the stadium sit empty. Just like Herman Gardens, TPTB decided to make up plans on the fly, meanwhile the years passed by and the stadium just decayed. The Tigers and the city could have solved the problem about what to do with the land by building Comerica Park next to Tiger Stadium and knock down Tiger Stadium for the new parking lot but this is Detroit and in Detroit EVERYTHING has to be difficult

[Hypestyles]

any current photos? I've missed out on taking photos myself..

[Rob]

Tiger Stadium was a dump, but my god did Tiger Stadium ooze character. The three cramped, all encompassing decks made it feel like baseball was the only reason to be there. You walked in and all you could see was grass and seats. No skyline, no Pepsi Porch, no restaurants or souvenir shops stood out. You never saw a pop fly go up and then think, "huh, when did they change the huge Verizon advertisement on the side of the building". So many seats right on top of the players. And even if the seats were empty at least the tall stadium provided a sense of scale for the flyballs and homers. You could feel the history in the old, smelly, rusting structure.

I'm not sad they are tearing down the stadium. It's over. I'm only sad that there is nothing... nothing visually at Comerica that will ever remind me of the feeling of being at Tiger Stadium. There isn't one seat in the upper deck I like to sit in. The upperdeck starts were the lower deck ends! It is nice to be able to view the game from anywhere, but again isn't that what a good seat is for? It's as if the designer conceded the fact that most people would hate their seat and made tons of standing room as a result. Perhaps the original Tiger Stadium preservationists should have cut their losses early and sided with the owner. Concentrated their efforts on influencing the design of the new park.

[treinman]

Here's a shot of where the broadcast booth used to be. Taken Tuesday afternoon. 6/9/09.

-- Tim

Attachment 1688

[EastsideAl]

I stated in an earlier post that I was in the minority about the end of Tiger Stadium. I support the decision to tear the remaining structure that is currently standing. No where in the US has a former baseball or football stadium has been used for something other than an event. Stadiums serve one purpose: to host events. The OTSC and groups before them were thinking with their hearts, not with their heads. Like most of you I don't support a vacant lot. I do understand the frustration about removing the stadium and having nothing come behind it.

I agree that the OTSC's neo-Navin Field plan was a longshot. But if it had worked then this city and this area would have had something special. And you are a little wrong when you say that no old stadiums have been reused, I can think of the old Braves Field that was used for many years by Boston University for football [[as Nickerson Field), and after they dropped the sport has been successfully downsized and re-purposed for soccer. In San Diego Balboa Stadium, and in San Francisco Kezar Stadium have both been reconfigured from their pro football size and are still in use for high school football, soccer, track meets, and concerts.

Again, it would have been a longshot for this plan to have worked. But instead of having something potentially special and historically interesting, they were seemingly in a gigantic unstoppable hurry to turn it into just another example of all that's least special and most depressing about this city: another vacant lot. And nothing bothers me more about this - not the nostalgia of thousands, not the loss of structure itself, not the cheap crappy replacement, not the decades of history now irretrievably lost - than the fact that we end up with nothing but another wonderful, useless, stupid vacant lot as a monument to the idiotic lack of productive vision and respect for our history that has plagued this city throughout my life.

Hey, but "demolition is progress."

[R8RBOB]

I agree that the OTSC's neo-Navin Field plan was a longshot. But if it had worked then this city and this area would have had something special. And you are a little wrong when you say that no old stadiums have been reused, I can think of the old Braves Field that was used for many years by Boston University for football [[as Nickerson Field), and after they dropped the sport has been successfully downsized and re-purposed for soccer. In San Diego Balboa Stadium, and in San Francisco Kezar Stadium have both been reconfigured from their pro football size and are still in use for high school football, soccer, track meets, and concerts.

No, I'm right about reusing stadiums. Let me paste the quote. "No where in the US has a former baseball or football stadium has been used for something other than an event." Focus on the word "event." I am fully aware that stadiums can be reused as stadiums for another sports venue. Sports is considered an event. I was referring to the off-the-wall ideas for Tiger Stadium. Retail, condos, office space, a museum for Ernie Harwell baseball collection!!!! These ideas would have worked if a plan was designed to knock the stadium down and use the land to build retail shops, build housing even have Ernie's museum with the Tigers as a partner.

[HazenPingree]

3. Advocacy problem[[s): "you don't want to buy my vacuum cleaners? Then you're an idiot." Where to even start on advocacy? Let's begin with attacking the city and its various agencies while you are trying to negotiate with one of them [[this goes for people in OTSC and people allied with it). If DEGC is holding the keys to the site [[and really to any gap funding that is available), how intelligent is it to call it incompetent, duplicitous, monstrous, etc.? If you were DEGC, why would you bother with anyone who had little money and but a big mouth? Went to City Council to get your way? How about over to Wayne County Circuit Court. That's not partnership, it's blatant antagonism and the strategy of a child who doesn't get what he wants from dad, so he goes to mom.

Huggybear, though I don't agree with you, you have some points... However, your advocacy point is far off base. While George Jackson has called my father, Thom Linn, a "Slim Ball," I have never heard ANYONE from the conservancy address the DEGC in anything less than a respectful manner.

When have you heard someone from the conservancy call anyone "incompetent, duplicitous, monstrous..." I've heard "lacks vision," sure, but that hardly seems defamation of any sort.

[Danny]

Maybe the Old Tiger Stadium will be proposed site for the Red Wings. That would bring Corktown business revenues back to life.

[R8RBOB]

Maybe the Old Tiger Stadium will be proposed site for the Red Wings. That would bring Corktown business revenues back to life.

I think we all know that isn't going to happen.

[Novine]

"Huggybear, though I don't agree with you, you have some points"

Huggybear has been a consistent apologista for Demolition Geo. Jackson so don't expect him/her to stray far from the party line.

[kraig]

Maybe the Old Tiger Stadium will be proposed site for the Red Wings. That would bring Corktown business revenues back to life.

Illitch doesn't own the land surrounding the stadium. He would want that in order to collect the parking revenue. As most people suspect, he will probably build it around the fox, where he controls most of the land and already and can collect additional revenue from the parking he owns around Comerica Park that doesn't get used a lot in the wintertime.