Judge Rules Tiger Stadium Demolition Can Proceed

[rjlj]

I don't think Comerica Park is that bad, but feel there could have some design improvements. As much as I want to see a new hockey arena, I am fearful of what the Ilitchs come up with. I feel their taste in design can be summed up as being gaudy.

[ghettopalmetto]

I don't think Comerica Park is that bad, but feel there could have some design improvements. As much as I want to see a new hockey arena, I am fearful of what the Ilitchs come up with. I feel their taste in design can be summed up as being gaudy.

You mean the people who sell $5 ready-to-go "pizzas" are tasteless? Say it isn't so!

[EastsideAl]

Comerica is ugly, tacky, soulless, and worse than that, a pretty lousy place to watch a baseball game. I went once when the place first opened, and again with a friend when the team was in the pennant race a few years ago, which only confirmed my first impression. I won't be going back.

I was in Tiger Stadium hundreds of times from the time I was 5 years old, and looked forward to each and every visit. The place had history, atmosphere, and the best close-in views of the game of any park in baseball. Those who dismiss its architecture, or take the passion of us fans for the place as mere nostalgia, know nothing about watching actual baseball games. The only real problem the place had was all of those posts. But then I notice that the Texas Rangers built their faux-historical ballpark to actually duplicate the right field stands at Tiger Stadium, posts and all.

I might not object to the new ballpark so much had they built something with some historical flavor or character, and had designed it with the actual viewing of baseball games in mind [[although I still would object to the final, ridiculously wasteful and unnecessary, destruction of Tiger Stadium). Instead the Tigers seemed to have gone out of their way to avoid nearly any feel of the old ballpark or reference to the history of the team there - almost like the place is a big "F_U" to those who loved the old stadium. Other teams, like Texas and Baltimore, went out of their way to build ballparks that had some reference to the history of the game, and many new stadia, like Baltimore's, were built to fit in with and enhance the urban fabric and feel of a big city. But what we got was a shining new suburban shopping mall food court of a ballpark, which is cookie-cutter bland in pretty much every respect, and, worst of all, where the game itself is only a rumor from many of the seats.

[Flanders]

Comerica is ugly, tacky, soulless, and worse than that, a pretty lousy place to watch a baseball game. I went once when the place first opened, and again with a friend when the team was in the pennant race a few years ago, which only confirmed my first impression. I won't be going back.

I was in Tiger Stadium hundreds of times from the time I was 5 years old, and looked forward to each and every visit. The place had history, atmosphere, and the best close-in views of the game of any park in baseball. Those who dismiss its architecture, or take the passion of us fans for the place as mere nostalgia, know nothing about watching actual baseball games. The only real problem the place had was all of those posts. But then I notice that the Texas Rangers built their faux-historical ballpark to actually duplicate the right field stands at Tiger Stadium, posts and all.

I might not object to the new ballpark so much had they built something with some historical flavor or character, and had designed it with the actual viewing of baseball games in mind [[although I still would object to the final, ridiculously wasteful and unnecessary, destruction of Tiger Stadium). Instead the Tigers seemed to have gone out of their way to avoid nearly any feel of the old ballpark or reference to the history of the team there - almost like the place is a big "F_U" to those who loved the old stadium. Other teams, like Texas and Baltimore, went out of their way to build ballparks that had some reference to the history of the game, and many new stadia, like Baltimore's, were built to fit in with and enhance the urban fabric and feel of a big city. But what we got was a shining new suburban shopping mall food court of a ballpark, which is cookie-cutter bland in pretty much every respect, and, worst of all, where the game itself is only a rumor from many of the seats.

Likewise, I went to a game at Tiger Stadium in it's final year 1999, and then a game at CoPa in 2000. It was so alien to me, being seated so distant from the field, and I resented all of the references, kiosks, and banners to Tigers teams and players of the past, who never played there. I had no emotional connection to the team or the park, might as well have been at a Rockies/Marlins game. I have never gone back, although I have warmed up to the Tigers' teams since '05, of course.

[R8RBOB]

I stated in an earlier post that I was in the minority about the end of Tiger Stadium. I support the decision to tear the remaining structure that is currently standing. No where in the US has a former baseball or football stadium has been used for something other than an event. Stadiums serve one purpose: to host events. The OTSC and groups before them were thinking with their hearts, not with their heads. Like most of you I don't support a vacant lot. I do understand the frustration about removing the stadium and having nothing come behind it.

Yesterday, I was driving west on Joy Road where I came across a huge lot of land which once was the Herman Gardens projects. For anyone who knows the "D" know about Herman Gardens.[[I can remember the Southfield bus going thru the projects) I remember how TPTB tore down all the structures on that land and there was promises to build new affordable houses on the land. This was back in the 90's and yet the land is still empty. Because of this non-development, the buildings on Joy that once were businesses closes their doors and the buildings have gone into decay. The gas station on the corner Southfield and Joy: closed and also in decay.

I said Tiger Stadium should have been torn down 9 years ago. I should have added that there should have been a real plan to develop the property after the Tigers left. The City, Mike Ilitch, anyone who had something to do with Tiger Stadium is at fault for letting the stadium sit empty. Just like Herman Gardens, TPTB decided to make up plans on the fly, meanwhile the years passed by and the stadium just decayed. The Tigers and the city could have solved the problem about what to do with the land by building Comerica Park next to Tiger Stadium and knock down Tiger Stadium for the new parking lot but this is Detroit and in Detroit EVERYTHING has to be difficult

[Rob]

Tiger Stadium was a dump, but my god did Tiger Stadium ooze character. The three cramped, all encompassing decks made it feel like baseball was the only reason to be there. You walked in and all you could see was grass and seats. No skyline, no Pepsi Porch, no restaurants or souvenir shops stood out. You never saw a pop fly go up and then think, "huh, when did they change the huge Verizon advertisement on the side of the building". So many seats right on top of the players. And even if the seats were empty at least the tall stadium provided a sense of scale for the flyballs and homers. You could feel the history in the old, smelly, rusting structure.

I'm not sad they are tearing down the stadium. It's over. I'm only sad that there is nothing... nothing visually at Comerica that will ever remind me of the feeling of being at Tiger Stadium. There isn't one seat in the upper deck I like to sit in. The upperdeck starts were the lower deck ends! It is nice to be able to view the game from anywhere, but again isn't that what a good seat is for? It's as if the designer conceded the fact that most people would hate their seat and made tons of standing room as a result. Perhaps the original Tiger Stadium preservationists should have cut their losses early and sided with the owner. Concentrated their efforts on influencing the design of the new park.

[Danny]

Maybe the Old Tiger Stadium will be proposed site for the Red Wings. That would bring Corktown business revenues back to life.

[R8RBOB]

Maybe the Old Tiger Stadium will be proposed site for the Red Wings. That would bring Corktown business revenues back to life.

I think we all know that isn't going to happen.

[kraig]

Maybe the Old Tiger Stadium will be proposed site for the Red Wings. That would bring Corktown business revenues back to life.

Illitch doesn't own the land surrounding the stadium. He would want that in order to collect the parking revenue. As most people suspect, he will probably build it around the fox, where he controls most of the land and already and can collect additional revenue from the parking he owns around Comerica Park that doesn't get used a lot in the wintertime.

[Fnemecek]

There's much to respond to so let's get started.

1. Planning problem: then, not now; yesterday, not tomorrow. The stadium went vacant in what, 1999? So the 501[[c) organization is established when? 2007 or 2008? The time for this was when people still had fond memories of the stadium, not when they're acclimatized to life in a new facility.

The OTSC was established on May 11, 2007 once an agreement had been formally established with the City of Detroit. Establishment of a separate legal entity to manage the project was a requirement of said agreement in order to avoid commingling of funds.

Prior to that, preservation efforts were undertaken under the auspices of Greater Corktown Development Corporation. These efforts actually began before Tiger Stadium even became vacant. It just took a few years to bring the City of Detroit on board.

And these deadlines - who set them? I understand it was OTSC, who should have no trouble understanding the consequences of missing them.

The deadlines were set as part of the overall agreement between the City and the OTSC. Like any agreement, there are various provisions - such as notice to the other parties - before various things are done. It's because this notice wasn't given that caused the demolition to be termed a suprise.

2. Fundrasing problem: lack of equity. Although we have heard about "earmarks" [[under attack in the Senate) and "tax credits," [[which have to be sold to a discount if there is anyone to buy them),

The earmark was passed by both houses of Congress and signed into law by the President last March. I don't know what attacks you are referring to, but if someone wanted to stop the earmark it would neccessitate another law being passed by the both houses of Congress and the President signing it to void the first one. That is extremely unlikely.

Tax credits can either be sold at a discount for upfront cash or retained until the entity files it annual tax return. There's never been a case of someone not being able to find a buyer for a tax credit of this size. The insinuation that the OTSC might not be able to find one is simply ridiculous.

3. Advocacy problem[[s): "you don't want to buy my vacuum cleaners? Then you're an idiot." Where to even start on advocacy? Let's begin with attacking the city and its various agencies while you are trying to negotiate with one of them [[this goes for people in OTSC and people allied with it).

Please name one person affiated with the OTSC who publicly said anything negative about the DEGC prior to the decision to demolish.

The fact of the matter is that the OTSC paid ball very nicely with the three Mayors of Detroit, the City Council and the DEGC - only to have the proverbial rug pulled out from under them. This fact does not inspire anyone else to treat the DEGC as anything other a schoolyard bully.

PREACH. Of course, instead of looking at that objectively, someone is going to look for a typo or some timeline point that you may have gotten wrong and focus on that instead.

Don't worry. I can correct your spelling, Kraig, without losing focus on the underlying fact that you have very little understanding of the subject matter and critical thinking skills can be summed up as " 2 + 2 = asparagus".

[kraig]

There's much to respond to so let's get started.

The OTSC was established on May 11, 2007 once an agreement had been formally established with the City of Detroit. Establishment of a separate legal entity to manage the project was a requirement of said agreement in order to avoid commingling of funds.

Prior to that, preservation efforts were undertaken under the auspices of Greater Corktown Development Corporation. These efforts actually began before Tiger Stadium even became vacant. It just took a few years to bring the City of Detroit on board.

The deadlines were set as part of the overall agreement between the City and the OTSC. Like any agreement, there are various provisions - such as notice to the other parties - before various things are done. It's because this notice wasn't given that caused the demolition to be termed a suprise.

The earmark was passed by both houses of Congress and signed into law by the President last March. I don't know what attacks you are referring to, but if someone wanted to stop the earmark it would neccessitate another law being passed by the both houses of Congress and the President signing it to void the first one. That is extremely unlikely.

Tax credits can either be sold at a discount for upfront cash or retained until the entity files it annual tax return. There's never been a case of someone not being able to find a buyer for a tax credit of this size. The insinuation that the OTSC might not be able to find one is simply ridiculous.

Please name one person affiated with the OTSC who publicly said anything negative about the DEGC prior to the decision to demolish.

The fact of the matter is that the OTSC paid ball very nicely with the three Mayors of Detroit, the City Council and the DEGC - only to have the proverbial rug pulled out from under them. This fact does not inspire anyone else to treat the DEGC as anything other a schoolyard bully.

Don't worry. I can correct your spelling, Kraig, without losing focus on the underlying fact that you have very little understanding of the subject matter and critical thinking skills can be summed up as " 2 + 2 = asparagus".

By all means, correct my spelling, after you've "paid ball" as you put it. I understand that the OTSC blew it. I understand that if someone wants a 33 million dollar project, treating that project like a hobby that you get around to in your spare time is not the way to go about it. I understand that there was practically little to no activity between the last time the OTSC went to Council with their hats in their hands and the point to which the DEGC voted to tear the stadium down. I understand that the OTSC took for granted that Cockrel was going to remain the mayor and there was not a sense of urgency to get the deal done once the OTSC had a friendly face on the 11th floor of the CAYMC. I understand that the rest of the stadium is being torn down. I understand that someone like you isn't going to learn from this and come better prepared when another opportunity to preserve something comes along. I understand that, instead, someone like you will make the same mistakes and blame the same results on others.

[1KielsonDrive]

Somebody here used to say something like -'tear that shit down'! Well, I agree! Not because it should be torn down but because Detroit doesn't deserve it! This city has demolished [[by neglect and every other means it could possibly conjure up) any and every thing worthwhile it's ever had. Old City Hall [[they oughtta tear the present one down with all of the politicians in it), Hudson's, Stroh Brewery, Joseph Campau House [[Little Harry's), Grand Riviera Theatre, Vanity, Graystone, etc, etc. I could go on and on. Most of the historic stuff they tear down here in Detroit, other cities would give an arm and a leg for. Look at the MCD. Look at Fort Wayne, Grande Ballroom. I'm sick of this fucking city. I've been to one game at COMA and I'll never attend another. I'll never eat another Little Pissy Caesar Pizza. No more Red Wings games. What in the fuck does anyone at City Hall expect tourists to come here to see? I've driven to Boston, Chicago, Cincinatti [[Crosley Field) just to see their old ballparks. I've been to other cities to see historic structures like the old fort in Baltimore Harbor. I forgot the name I'm so pissed. Fucking politicians in Detroit are just ignorant and crooked!

[DocTerry]

Reddog, it's so refreshing to hear from someone who is able and willing to look at both sides, and agree to disagree. And I am genuinely sorry that it did not turn out as you'd wished. I don't think any of us, including those who just want to see this done, are/were opposed to seeing the park-and-retail plan work.
And no, Novine, I won't be complaining about a Wal-mart or even a vacant lot - I'm looking forward to waking up to a different view one morning. If the trash from there doesn't blow onto my lawn like all the trash from the opening day and st. pat's day mayhem does, I'm sure some of us will go over periodically and clean it up.

[kathy2trips]

I'd love to see stock car races here; even amateurs. It would be fun, profitable and go a long way to reinforcing Detroit's status as an automotive center.

[urbanoutdoors]

http://baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=1302

[R8RBOB]

I'm sorry but I'm in the minority here. Tiger Stadium should have been torn down 9 years ago.

I understand that there are a number of people who have/had a love affair with Tiger Stadium but the park has been not in use for the last 10 years. People have stated that we need to preserve Detroit's history but really what can anyone do with a pre-WW1 baseball stadium? The Conservancy have worked for the last 22 years to keep Tiger Stadium in use. 10 years of that 22, the stadium sat empty and not in use and yet no money was brought to the table. The Conservancy had deadlines extended and still could not deliver and people are surprised the city is tearing down the rest.

I loved driving by Tiger Stadium. I was sad that the Tigers were going leave the Corner at the end of the 99 season, but life goes on. The stadium should have been knocked down back in 2000. I remember how the "Red Barn" on Grand River stood empty for years before the city decided that it was time. It is time now......

[detourdetroit]

look, there's a lot of misinformation here. the conservancy only worked on this project for a little over three years. it's a shame they couldn't distinguish themselves from previous efforts [[and that's nothing against previous efforts). the real travesty is that the powers that be and the community never formed a real partnership to forward the city. in my opinion, the city never really had any intent to see the conservancy's plan through.

here's an example of something that can be done when politics and grassroots advocacy work together to FORWARD the city and BUILD UPON the existing assets of the city. The High Line effort took 10 years and required convincing the powers that be that demolition was dumb.

Detroit loses out again...a figment of status quo leadership more than anything else. Bing's folks resemble the folks that have been running things for years. go figure!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/09/ar...e-RO.html?_r=1

[zitro]

I wrote this last year when the wrecking ball first started to swing on the old gal and thought I'd share it with those who care.

Goodbye Old Girl

I’m tired and old, it’s time to say bye,
My house was your home, yes even for Ty.
When Babe set foot on my tall green bright grass
I told him okay I’ll give you a pass
I’ve been through a lot they come and they go.
But grieve me not friends I’m no longer the show
There’s Harry and Cochrane and Prince Hal and Charley
There were so many laughs boy did Cash like to party.
They had Murder’s Row but we had our Hank
And our home grown son Willie was built like a tank
Tram and Sweet Lou each were just like a son
As Ernie would say “2 for the price of one�.
My neighborhood burned back in 67’
That 68’ team was a gift down from heaven,
My shoulders are slumped and I’ll soon be debris
But weep not dear friends, no weep not for me.
Al Kaline first class, he was born with a touch
Kirk though rambunctious but tough in the clutch
That 84’ team sure did have swagger
But the Padres learned fast when we gave them the dagger
From Bennett to Navin to Briggs then into Tiger
My name may have changed but my roof just got higher.
I’ve opened my home to friend and to foe
But now it’s my time, it’s my time to go.
My final decree as my walls start to crumble
May a smile cross your face when you think of Michigan and Trumbull.

[Gsgeorge]

I'm sorry but I'm in the minority here. Tiger Stadium should have been torn down 9 years ago.

I understand that there are a number of people who have/had a lover affair with Tiger Stadium but the park has been not in use for the last 10 years. People have stated that we need to preserve Detroit's history but really what can anyone do with a pre-WW1 baseball stadium?

Uh....

We've gone over this:
- Community youth baseball park
- Ernie Harwell collection baseball museum
- Offices for greeting card company
- Retail

[R8RBOB]

Uh....

We've gone over this:
- Community youth baseball park
Don't the city have enough parks?

- Ernie Harwell collection baseball museum
We have museums that can host the "Ernie Harwell Baseball Collection"

- Offices for greeting card company
Prime office space is available, downtown of course.

- Retail
The one thing I agree with, but we don't need the empty shell of a stadium for retail.

If the money was there, then this would have been a moot point.

[Mackinaw]

Totally agree with Jackie and Trumpeteer. Comerica might be much more comfortable for the players, and might have more "amenities" for fans, but the one amenity I want is to be able to follow the action in the midst of other people who are following the action. That has not occurred in the majority of the many games I've attended at CoPa [[usually only the playoffs have such an atmosphere). The problem is that the designers and ownership did not have an appreciation of what made Tiger Stadium good for the fans, and they erected something completely different. Perhaps if it all went down 5-10 years later we would have built a replica like in NY.

RIP Tiger Stadium.

[rjlj]

Ghettopalmetto, the argument can last forever. Just be glad R8RBOB and kraig are not in powerful decision-making positions. They are part of the same visionless generation that run this city and will need to die off before major positive change takes place in this city.

Here is the DEGC supporting their decision to tear down the stadium. Didn’t I read yesterday or hear on the radio on Friday that the DEGC said they had potential developers interested I the site? And the lies continue.

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090...etroit-Council

[kraig]

Ghettopalmetto, the argument can last forever. Just be glad R8RBOB and kraig are not in powerful decision-making positions. They are part of the same visionless generation that run this city and will need to die off before major positive change takes place in this city.

Here is the DEGC supporting their decision to tear down the stadium. Didn’t I read yesterday or hear on the radio on Friday that the DEGC said they had potential developers interested I the site? And the lies continue.

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090...etroit-Council

So now I'm visionless because I don't want the City to spend taxpayer money to demolish a house that's not abandoned? I see that you've decided to step over that sublime line as well. Look, everyone knows that the OTSC had the deck stacked against them. But, when you're in a situation where someone is looking to capitalize on the first thing that you do wrong, you can't afford to do anything wrong. And if you do, you should take the steps to correct things if the other party hasn't capitalized on it. The OTSC blew that, big time. They also didn't take advantage of having a Mayor that was sympathetic to their cause. If you want to talk about visionless, talk to them.

[GREENTROIT]

@Jackie and @Trumpeteer...

Jackie, I am a hardcore baseball fan. Like you, when I go to Tiger's games I want to focus on the action. But I don't see how Comerica has extra "clutter," and especially disagree with your point on bad seating. Comerica's sightlines are far better than anything Tiger Stadium offered. It was engineered to provide each seat with a great view. I've sat just about everywhere in the park and my experiences support this. As far as the extra clutter, sure. There is music in between batters and there's a giant scoreboard with racing donuts once a game. But when the game is going on, its all baseball. I don't see how Comerica takes away from the game. And the extra money Ilitch has made from the changes have allowed for a competitive team. Would you rather field a team with players like Cabrera, Ordonez, Granderson, Verlander, etc... Or keep paying Bobby Higginson and Robert Fick $10M to do nothing. I guarantee that Pudge never comes to Detroit [[and turns the franchise around) if they still play in Tiger Stadium.

@ Trumpeteer:

I have many, many friends in Boston [[I used to live there). And yes, Fenway has a nostalgiac air about it. It has to do with the charms of the Green Monster and Pesky Pole, etc. But many of those friends HATE Fenway. They hate the enormous lines for the bathroom, the 10 inch wide seats that cost $150 a piece, and the two hundred person line for a beer. I promise you that if a totally new stadium built as a replica of Fenway was offered to Red Sox fans they would jump immediately. I'm sure whatever documentary you watched put the slant they wanted on it, but those fans want a modern park.

[Trumpeteer]

@Jackie and @Trumpeteer...

@ Trumpeteer:

I have many, many friends in Boston [[I used to live there). And yes, Fenway has a nostalgiac air about it. It has to do with the charms of the Green Monster and Pesky Pole, etc. But many of those friends HATE Fenway. They hate the enormous lines for the bathroom, the 10 inch wide seats that cost $150 a piece, and the two hundred person line for a beer. I promise you that if a totally new stadium built as a replica of Fenway was offered to Red Sox fans they would jump immediately. I'm sure whatever documentary you watched put the slant they wanted on it, but those fans want a modern park.

Dear EXPERT, the "documentary" was World News Tonight last night. Incredible that your friends hate Fenway but it continues to sell out. Must be a great situation to be in. Thanks for your invaluable input into the discussion.