Feds, Snyder kill Woodward Light Rail Line

[bailey]

I was reading a blog that kinda explained their apparent confusion about curbside rail. I'd never even see it before until this proposal, but the blog pointed out that it does exist in some cities, except the rail is always running along the curb on a one-way street. It's also always just one line going in one direction. Woodward, as we all know, is a two-way thoroughfare, so the curbside thing just doesn't make sense at all.

http://www.transportmichigan.org/201...s-gilbert.html

Interesting article. However can it really be called "confusion" at this point? I mean, the Gilbertonians have had all manner of expert, multiple public forums, and all kinds of studies state unequivocally that curb side and in traffic is just plain stupid for M1. We're way past "confusion"...we're more into willful ignorance.

[Dexlin]

Well, that's a serious worry, that one one side is an additional bus system, on the other a parking shuttle and -- as usual -- the monkeys in the middle.

Of course, a Crain's reporter had insisted that the issue was not where it would run at all, and that Detroit's business leaders weren't balking at the LRT proposal because of alignment issues ... sigh ...

Just to be clear, DDOT and the private group had reached a compromise quite a few months ago where the vast majority of the line would run in its own, seperate center-lane for the vast majority of the line, but become more like a streetcar [[curbside running in traffic) in the immediate downtown vicinity. No one was lied to. The city had largely won out for making this legitimate light rail save for a small downtown portion.

With the city having been sidelined, though, Gilbert can run his little tram wherever he wants to...if he's able to get it off the ground, at all, anymore.

[bailey]

Just to be clear, DDOT and the private group had reached a compromise quite a few months ago where the vast majority of the line would run in its own, seperate center-lane for the vast majority of the line, but become more like a streetcar [[curbside running in traffic) in the immediate downtown vicinity. No one was lied to. The city had largely won out for making this legitimate light rail save for a small downtown portion.

With the city having been sidelined, though, Gilbert can run his little tram wherever he wants to...if he's able to get it off the ground, at all, anymore.

If that actually came to fruition, then it's pretty much a distinction without a difference. If it's running half the line at the curb and in traffic with no grade separation, then why have it at all? Its only one line. So, instead of having something to bypass traffic and get people out of their cars, its going to be sitting in traffic at a gridlocked intersection after a game...or more likely, sitting at a intersection at 3 oclock on a random Tuesday where the traffic lights are malfunctioning and no one can figure out right of way, it makes the whole thing pointless.

[antongast]

If it's running half the line at the curb and in traffic with no grade separation, then why have it at all?

Rosa Parks Transit Center to Grand Circus Park isn't anywhere near half the line, that's like five blocks.

[rbdetsport]

I know that. You know that. It's a lot harder to explain that to my parents at Hall Rd. and Hayes.

That's funny because my parents, who live at 21 Mile and Hayes, understand what the LRT could have done for our region and were VERY pissed off at our regional, state, and federal governments about this.

[Brian1979]

I give up on Detroit, it's the worst major city in the country. High crime, no mass transit, pothole filled streets, miserable weather [[can't blame that on the city though). They let the same idiots run this city every single time it's just someone different in charge that's all, all the mayors this city has had since 1973 have been a joke, Archer was the only halfway decent mayor. You don't even have to leave the midwest to find a far, far more superior city than Detroit and that would be Chicago. I will never believe anything positive about Detroit unless I see it.

[animatedmartian]

^^^ Hell, even a smaller mid-sized town that doesn't have quite all the amenities but still is a perfectly functioning city seems like a better option than Detroit at this point.

[Brian1979]

The only thing is East St. Louis, Gary and Camden are much smaller than Detroit and are not the major cities in their metro areas.

I think this is an excellent quote, and I agree 100%.

That said, light rail, and transit in general, is only one piece of the overall puzzle that is reimagining an urban center. The investment in, say, light rail, doesn't necessary lead to revitalization, and it isn't clear that another modal choice would result in better or worse outcomes.

Ever been to East St. Louis? Much worse than Detroit, and they have added new light rail lines. Hasn't done a thing. Gary, IN is much worse than Detroit, and they've had interurban rail [[basically a cross between trolley and commuter rail) for probably more than a century. Camden, NJ has both light rail and heavy rail, and is probably as bad as Detroit.

And how about buses? Seattle only had buses until about five years ago. They were doing quite well urbanistically and economically before they added rail. Even now, they have very limited rail, with just a few miles in operation. I don't think anyone could realistically claim that Seattle is urban or successful because of the recently constructed rail.

So why was Seattle attractive to young, urban-minded folks before the introduction of rail, and why are East St. Louis and Gary repellent to almost everyone despite the rail infrastructure? Obviously there are many factors to consider, many of which have nothing to do with transit or mobility.

[Brian1979]

^^^ Hell, even a smaller mid-sized town that doesn't have quite all the amenities but still is a perfectly functioning city seems like a better option than Detroit at this point.

Yeah pretty much, anything is better than Detroit. I can't believe how dysfunctional Detroit is. At one point this was the 4th largest city in the nation, now it's 18th and is lost in the 1950's.

[j to the jeremy]

I give up on Detroit, it's the worst major city in the country. High crime, no mass transit, pothole filled streets, miserable weather [[can't blame that on the city though). They let the same idiots run this city every single time it's just someone different in charge that's all, all the mayors this city has had since 1973 have been a joke, Archer was the only halfway decent mayor. You don't even have to leave the midwest to find a far, far more superior city than Detroit and that would be Chicago. I will never believe anything positive about Detroit unless I see it.

Don't forget, the suburbs are equally guilty, a little dose of regionalism can go along way. The city has tried to get mass transit regionally and been shut down by closed minded attitudes

[casscorridor]

*bump* i wanted to talk about capacity of light-rail. I was checking out Denver's system, and they have trains that are three-cars long, and each car is about twice the size of a standard bus, so it has the capacity of about six buses. How could any bus system ever equal this?

Also, I keep seeing articles stating basically that there is no possible way 3 billion of transit-oriented development could happen along Woodward, some articles stating it would have to appear out of thin air, like magic. But take a look at Denver-- they have light-rail going through some pretty rough areas that are now experiencing huge developments, such as five-story apartments over retail. Closer to downtown, the amount of developments is huge. I saw that Rosetti [[a Metro Detroit Firm) was working on a multi-billion dollar project around one station, which made me think about what the impact in Detroit would be.

Yesterday I was walking down Woodard, and thought about how many buildings have already been built or renovated just in Midtown, how many are being bought and renovated Downtown, with the worst transit in the country... there has already been billions in development just this decade. Now imagine if we had at least the standard transit for a city of our size-- light-rail-- what Woodward and adjacent streets would look like. Cass would probably be lined with new small or medium sized buildings and storefronts, Woodward with larger apartment and office buildings and major retail.

Which brings be back to capacity again... I think it is a well-established fact that density is facilitated through mass transit. The New York City Subway spread density throughout the city. Denver's light-rail is building up density in neighborhoods that more resemble Detroit. No bus system has ever done this. Buses simply meet the demand where it is, they do not create demand. And since bus lines are not permanent, developers usually don't gear their development toward them. In other words, the buses will not serve any new riders, and create little to new development. Light-rail on the other hand would attract many new riders [[not that it needs them to survive, it doesn't) AND lead to billions in development.

I can still see a day when light-rail trains are zipping down Woodward and the neighborhoods along the route are vibrant, walkable and safe-- places where people want to live. That just isn't going to happen with a bus.

[[note: im not opposed to BRT, just opposed to it on Woodward, it would work great on Gratiot or Grand River, where there is a real need to improved bus service, but little prospect for major redevelopment until the Woodward corridor develops first).

[Baselinepunk]

"High crime, no mass transit, pothole filled streets, miserable weather [[can't blame that on the city though)."

True to a point but in some areas D-Town is vastly improved from when I was a youngin`.

[canuck]

Don't forget, the suburbs are equally guilty, a little dose of regionalism can go along way. The city has tried to get mass transit regionally and been shut down by closed minded attitudes

Herein lies the key, j to the jeremy; I oftentimes think that the ultimate goal of surrounding municipalities is for Detroit's failure to occur on its own. It is very much like Haiti in that everything was done to punish that country for being independant from its former landowning french masters. The country had to pay a huge debt to be free that was paid well into the 20th century. And it went on over time with the US marines landing there in the early 20th century to "stabilize" the place and stem the flow of refugees into New Orleans and other points on the gulf. The result is that we always will point to the people who abide there for the violence and poverty in their lives. Facts like abandonment, long drawn out period of inopportunity are almost never pointed out for the city's outcome in the media.

Building a timely transit system and running a metro council would have meant more integration, more mobility of the kind suburbanites cringe probably.

[313WX]

"High crime, no mass transit, pothole filled streets, miserable weather [[can't blame that on the city though)."

True to a point but in some areas D-Town is vastly improved from when I was a youngin`.

Other than Downtown/Midtown/New Center [[a 5 sq. mile area), name one please...

[Wesley Mouch]

Other than Downtown/Midtown/New Center [[a 5 sq. mile area), name one please...

Old Redford.

In the last few years, many new businesses have opened. Coffee Shop. Art Gallery. Restored Masonic Temple as business incubator. Sweet Potato Sensations bakery. Drug Store on corner has chased away the drug dealers. Motor City Blight Busters. Community gardens. Wendy's and White Castle have moved into area. I'm not in denial that there have been many losses of business in area, but 20 years ago the place was a mess, and dangerous. Now its a neighborhood on the rebound with a business association once again.

There's one area for ya, Mr. Negativity.

[Hermod]

*bump* i wanted to talk about capacity of light-rail. I was checking out Denver's system, and they have trains that are three-cars long, and each car is about twice the size of a standard bus, so it has the capacity of about six buses. How could any bus system ever equal this?

Also, I keep seeing articles stating basically that there is no possible way 3 billion of transit-oriented development could happen along Woodward, some articles stating it would have to appear out of thin air, like magic. But take a look at Denver-- they have light-rail going through some pretty rough areas that are now experiencing huge developments, such as five-story apartments over retail. Closer to downtown, the amount of developments is huge. I saw that Rosetti [[a Metro Detroit Firm) was working on a multi-billion dollar project around one station, which made me think about what the impact in Detroit would be.

A few months ago, there was an article in Progressive Railroading about the Denver rail system. The organizers did a great job of getting all of the suburban mayors and county supervisors on board and all of the mayors supported a referendum to tack on a transit subsidy to the general sales tax. The public responded and the tax was imposed. They began to build the line. Two things happened that the promoters did not foresee or forgot to mention. Cost overruns began as soon as construction started. The country also began to enter a recession in 2008 which reduced the amount of sales tax collected. Now they want to go out on another referendum to double the transit part of the sales tax so that the system can be completed [[and operated). Guess what? The suburban mayors are reluctant to be the cheerleaders this time.

[Brian1979]

"High crime, no mass transit, pothole filled streets, miserable weather [[can't blame that on the city though)."

True to a point but in some areas D-Town is vastly improved from when I was a youngin`.

I'm sorry I forgot to note, large areas of abandonment. The only areas of Detroit that have improved since I've been born are Midtown and Downtown. The city has lost 500,000 people in my lifetime.

[1953]

Freeways going the way of the dodo:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/27/ar...me&ref=general

[stasu1213]

I don't think there would be a permanent plan for light rail in Detroit as long as GM, Chrysler, and Ford are claiming this city as their hometown. The Oil companies and gas stations, which are all over the place, won't profit if everyone is taking a trolley or train. They have the men and women in place to make sure the light rail idea doesn't become a reality.

[corktownyuppie]

I don't think there would be a permanent plan for light rail in Detroit as long as GM, Chrysler, and Ford are claiming this city as their hometown. The Oil companies and gas stations, which are all over the place, won't profit if everyone is taking a trolley or train. They have the men and women in place to make sure the light rail idea doesn't become a reality.

I respectfully disagree. On the list of things which auto manufacturers feel threatened by, light rail is hardly on the radar. No one, not even the staunchest transit advocates, pictures a NYC-style grid of subways/trains here in SE Michigan. Even in Chicago, where their mass transit system is decades and decades ahead of where we most optimistically be in 10 years, the primary mode of transportation is by automobile.

The biggest obstacle, in my opinion, is an inability for the various units of municipal government to agree on a structure which will culminate in a mutually beneficial system of raising operating funds and allocating those funds equitably.

The Big 3 see most of their sales growth coming from overseas and will be almost totally unaffected by any kind of transit system in place here.

Another way of looking at the issue is that the people with the money don't want to fund something they ignorantly think will be of no benefit to them. The people who will benefit from a transit system regularly make unreasonable demands about controlling the funds that are allocated to to operating the system.

Result? Gridlock.

[ghettopalmetto]

I don't think there would be a permanent plan for light rail in Detroit as long as GM, Chrysler, and Ford are claiming this city as their hometown. The Oil companies and gas stations, which are all over the place, won't profit if everyone is taking a trolley or train. They have the men and women in place to make sure the light rail idea doesn't become a reality.

Which is why you'd never see something so silly as say, a streetcar line going directly to the Ford Rouge plant.

[Wesley Mouch]

...
The biggest obstacle, in my opinion, is an inability for the various units of municipal government to agree on a structure which will culminate in a mutually beneficial system of raising operating funds and allocating those funds equitably.
...
Another way of looking at the issue is that the people with the money don't want to fund something they ignorantly think will be of no benefit to them. The people who will benefit from a transit system regularly make unreasonable demands about controlling the funds that are allocated to to operating the system.

Result? Gridlock.

Precisely.

I might add to this the lack of confidence that it will be run efficiently, and not just as a jobs program / wealth redistribution mechanism.

[stasu1213]

I respectfully disagree. On the list of things which auto manufacturers feel threatened by, light rail is hardly on the radar. No one, not even the staunchest transit advocates, pictures a NYC-style grid of subways/trains here in SE Michigan. Even in Chicago, where their mass transit system is decades and decades ahead of where we most optimistically be in 10 years, the primary mode of transportation is by automobile.

The biggest obstacle, in my opinion, is an inability for the various units of municipal government to agree on a structure which will culminate in a mutually beneficial system of raising operating funds and allocating those funds equitably.

The Big 3 see most of their sales growth coming from overseas and will be almost totally unaffected by any kind of transit system in place here.

Another way of looking at the issue is that the people with the money don't want to fund something they ignorantly think will be of no benefit to them. The people who will benefit from a transit system regularly make unreasonable demands about controlling the funds that are allocated to to operating the system.

Result? Gridlock.

The foreigners overseas who purchase american automobiles would look at the Big 3 as hypocrites if many people in the so-called Motor City are riding light rails and rapid busses instead of relying on cars. I had alway wondered why the people mover didn't go as far as the New Center area. A light rail could had went to 8 mile and businesses could had been developed within the downtown to 8 mile area of Woodward. Many people are worry about the suburbs not tagging along with the light rail project. Why can't we start it off by building it within the city limits first. The gas stations, car comapnies, and insurance companies in Michigan will lose a lot if high speed and light rail start to run in the city and state

[313WX]

Why can't we start it off by building it within the city limits first.

Because we don't have the money to build any mass transit system in the city proper just for the city proper by only the city proper.

Most Detroiters can't even get a emergency response in a reasonable time, let along afford to build and operate a transit system of the size you're proposing. Heck, we're even struggling to maintain the little elevated train to nowhere we alerady have downtown.

[ghettopalmetto]

The foreigners overseas who purchase american automobiles would look at the Big 3 as hypocrites if many people in the so-called Motor City are riding light rails and rapid busses instead of relying on cars.

Let me ask you this. How many times do you consider the "hypocrites" in Munich, Stuttgart, Seoul, and Tokyo when buying a car?