Feds, Snyder kill Woodward Light Rail Line

[urbanhat]

Regardless of whether M1 was ever financially viable, the way this decision was handled is maddening. Whatever happened to transparency in governing? Why was there not a public discussion here? Why is the public discussion only happening now, after the decision?

Moreover, why don't the people advocating for transit have more of a say in this discussion? To everyone in this forum, do you feel that your voice is being heard? This forum, facebook, the Craig Fahle show, are all blowing up today over this, and the majority is in favor of transit. A recent SEMCOG survey showed the majority of the region's residents support improved transit [[and it's unlikely SEMCOG went out of its way to skew those numbers). Where is the coalition to advocate for this? All due respect to TRU--TRU does great work--but don't we need a broader coalition?

[illwill]

Iheartthed,

i find it pretty interesting that you think downtown detroit real estate is worthless without light rail transit? i personally disagree but if you're correct then our city is completely doomed. if you're saying that people were moving downtown all along on speculation that light rail would soon follow and those who planned to eventually relocate were doing so because of mass transit then detroit is in a sad state. i thought people were coming to detroit just because it was detroit?? because of the art scene, the independent movement scene etc...detroit AS-IS. i mean, i understand land speculators were betting on it, but i'm talking about people looking to live in the city.

i personally thought detroit would never get light rail and i don't think we ever will. detroit is too broke and i also never thought the routes made sense either. i think this whole this entire fiasco was rushed, poorly planned.

another thing..what makes dan gilbert and the other "m-1 crew" qualified to be transportation experts? this is the problem with detroit. the wrong people are in charge. gilbert should stick to doing what he does.

iheartthed, i hope your're wrong because if you're right then detroit just hit a brick wall in terms of growth. but i think i'm right. i think people will still move to detroit "for what it is." detroit.

[urbanhat]

Also, just wondering, hypothetically, what would happen if a tax to fund operating costs for a transit system were put up for a vote across the region? Would it pass?

Voters across the country have a good track record of taxing themselves to support transit. In 2011, 78% of transit ballot measures succeeded-- 16 of these were in Michigan. http://www.cfte.org/success/2011BallotMeasures.asp.

[antongast]

I'm in favor of light-rail, high-speed busses anything as long as anyone who has worked for DDOT or SMART have nothing to do with the new system.

I don't really think it's fair to blame the employees of DDOT and SMART for the quality of the service. The fact is, we're paying for crappy bus service, and that's what we're getting. Even if the professional-level employees at other large-city transit systems are a bit better qualified overall [[I don't know whether this is the case, but it seems plausible that a system with a halfway decent reputation and a relatively secure future is in a better position to attract top-notch employees), I don't think that swapping Detroit's administrative staff for Chicago's or Pittsburgh's would lead to substantially better outcomes in the absence of a funding fix and a strong political commitment to transit. The administrators at SMART and DDOT, whatever their strengths or shortcomings, are pretty much dealing with an impossible situation here.

[Russix]

I often thought WWLR was the key to finally forming an RTA. It's something people who live in the Woodward corridor north of 8 Mile would be interested in. Something to put pressure on Patterson to come to the table and see interest in a Detroit "jewel". OC has the money to build even without New Starts to Pontiac if they wanted to. BRT has always been part of the plan for Detroit, just after 5 years of various studies, LRT came out being the most bang for the buck for Detroit, and Woodward was selected[[by the public) as the best place to start. BRT was suppose to come after LRT, primarily because it really requires an RTA to operate.

The WWLR would fill a huge hole in Detroit's urban fabric, a subway[[not the kind you get sandwiches at). Promote a densily urban taxbase which is the symbiotic relationship between urban areas and transit. I think BRT is great, unforunately it's not the money maker LRT would have been on Woodward.

Oh and here's the petition:
http://www.change.org/petitions/rein...m-1-light-rail

[thecarl]

Clearly, BRT is the "coyote ugly" of the transportation world. The ride was great, but once you got off, you found yourself looking at a bus, not a train - so you have to chew your arm off.

[JRich2425]

@Rick Snyder: "Just when I think you couldn't get any dumber, you do something like this..." Thanks for killing Michigan, one poor decision at a time.

[stinkytofu]

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...he-rails-on-m1

Private investors apparently still have interest in pursuing.

[Flintoid]

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...he-rails-on-m1

Private investors apparently still have interest in pursuing.

Glad to see this. Hopefully with light rail and BRT, we can have comprehensive transit with economic development for the city's urban core.

[HistoryNotHisStory]

This is true, except BRT can do the exact same thing, except much cheaper, and doesn't require transfers as with light rail.

With BRT, you could board downtown, and go to Somerset, Twelve Oaks, or Hall Road job centers without transfers. This would be impossible with light rail. So Sally Smith who lives in Detroit works at WalMart in Troy will benefit from a faster, more direct commute than with light rail.

If, however, the primary intent is to build up downtown [[rather than provide regional mobility), then I totally agree that light rail is a vastly superior choice. Fixed rail will assist spatial concentration.

How is BRT cheaper???

THE AMERICAN PEOPLE IS THE MISINFORMED CREATURE ON THE PLANET.

IN FIVE TO TEN YEARS, PETROLEUM WILL BE UNAFFORDABLE.

WHAT WILL YOU RUN YOUR BUSES ON THEN.

WE ARE SO CONCERNED ABOUT HERE AND NOW AND FORGET TO PLAN FOR THE LONG TERM.

OUR PEOPLE AND LEADERS ARE IGNORANT!

LEARN THE FACTS PEOPLE!

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...nergy-outlook/http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...nergy-outlook/

OR JUST SIMPLY WATCH THE DOCUMENTARY!

[HistoryNotHisStory]

i think, in the long run, this will be very good news. In terms of mobility, light rail offers no advantages over buses.

Light rail's relative advantages have nothing to do with mobility, which is why it was primarily conceived as another urban renewal project, rather than a transportation project.

it takes energy to run buses.
It takes energy to run light rail.

However, a light rail system runs on electricity [[the grid).

The buses runs on petroleum based fuels. Which has been cited by the scientific community and by opec and by the international energy association that the supplies of oil is depleting. Which means higher prices.

If southeast michigan invests in buses, they will be converted to electric rails in ten years due to the high cost of fuel.

Our leaders have no foresight!

[corktownyuppie]

If southeast michigan invests in buses, they will be converted to electric rails in ten years due to the high cost of fuel.

Our leaders have no foresight!

I don't have as strong views as you do about the fuels issue, so I don't want to debate that. You are right that our leaders have no foresight.

Sometimes you need to sell people what they WANT, before they trust you enough to sell them what they ACTUALLY NEED.

If you're right that 10 years from now, people in all the suburbs realize that they really DO love transit but that buses are no longer efficient, then that's till better off where we are now, where it's like pulling teeth to get anyone even talking about transit. Yes will that cost more in the long run? Sure. But remember, you don't ever get to the long run if you don't get through the short run.

[Hermod]

it takes energy to run buses.
It takes energy to run light rail.

However, a light rail system runs on electricity [[the grid).

The buses runs on petroleum based fuels. Which has been cited by the scientific community and by opec and by the international energy association that the supplies of oil is depleting. Which means higher prices.

If southeast michigan invests in buses, they will be converted to electric rails in ten years due to the high cost of fuel.

Our leaders have no foresight!

You can also have trolley buses. You have to build the overhead wire, but you do not have to build the tracks. You run on the pavement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybus

[bartock]

Crain's did a good write up to answer some of your questions. I think they were being a little too optimistic, though. I'll explain why further down. From Crain's:



In other words, they will have to tear more buildings down for parking structures.



In other words, you're ceding all of those people to Chicago and the coasts because your region is too cheap to build a stupid, bare bones light rail line.


Probably the best point of all. The decision makers don't know what the fuck they're talking about. They're trying to speak to us in Spanish while the rest of us are conversing in Portuguese. They think it all sounds the same, but we're really speaking two different languages.

Anyway, as I said above, the article is a bit too optimistic. That's because it doesn't take into account that historic renovations only make sense when the property values are expensive [[or expected to). Density pushes up the value of land, which pushes up the value of the buildings built on the land, which is the basis of the incentive to restore old buildings. No transit, no density, no increase in property values. So really, the transit is the base of it all. That's why I said Dan Gilbert's buildings will be worthless without the train line.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...ith-light-rail

Actually, your post about about buses regionally and light rail along Woodward in the city is exactly what I agree with. I disagree with those who think light rail from 8 mile to the Civic Center ALONE was going to do anything for any long-term goals.

[mwilbert]

There doesn't appear to be any imminent shortage of natural gas, and CNG buses are widely available and don't need any wires. This is not a particularly strong objection to bus transit.

[HistoryNotHisStory]

sometimes you need to sell people what they want, before they trust you enough to sell them what they actually need.

If you're right that 10 years from now, people in all the suburbs realize that they really do love transit but that buses are no longer efficient, then that's till better off where we are now, where it's like pulling teeth to get anyone even talking about transit. Yes will that cost more in the long run? Sure. But remember, you don't ever get to the long run if you don't get through the short run.

that is the most lame excuse for sitting on your big bus and doing nothing!

The people were not sold on a rapid bus system!
It's being ram-rodded down our throats!

I repeat once again that the majority of the masses is ignorant!

[corktownyuppie]

I repeat once again that the majority of the masses is ignorant!

Well, yeah. That's the problem! So the question is how do we deal with ignorant masses? When you find a way, let me know. It's all I can do to go to the grocery store and not end up behind someone who's trying to scan a head of lettuce at the self-serve computer checkout.

[urbanhat]

http://www.freep.com/article/20111214/NEWS06/111214023/Detroit-s-U-S-reps-push-Washington-give-light-rail-another-chance?odyssey=mod|breaking|text|FRONTPAGE

[Russix]

http://www.freep.com/article/2011121...text|FRONTPAGE

How many years does it take Detroit to go full circle? Nine Years. Now were back to DARTA and Speedlink. Thanks Engler!

[Dexlin]

I love the clueless folks trying to put perfume on this turd. You call can keep sounding like abused spouses if you'd like, the rest of us are going to save ourselves and remove ourselves from the situation. Time to stop settling, and settling for sh%t that may not even come, either. You all can keep running back into the arms of the politicians who've totally shot their credibility, the rest of us will continue to advocate for REAL economic development and transit solutions.

Many of these responses are absolutely perfect examples of learned helplessness. You'll eat anything fed to you, and pretend it's a steak dinner because you can't deal with the truth. Metro Detroit can very much afford this, and they should have stayed on track by developing the LRT as part of the greater regional system that was going to include better bus service, regardless. Metro Detroit can afford this, a stubborn bloc don't want to spend the money.

[Hermod]

that is the most lame excuse for sitting on your big bus and doing nothing!

The people were not sold on a rapid bus system!
It's being ram-rodded down our throats!

I repeat once again that the majority of the masses is ignorant!

While you sit in comfort on your smooth and beautiful LRT.
Attachment 11525

[rjk]

So when are all you people who are so angry you could spit going to have a protest march? Bitching on the internet will only get you so far, you need to take it to the street. You could do a Love Train conga line down the middle of Woodward.

[Dexlin]

The Detroit News is confirming what we all thought. The bait-and-switch decision to scrap the years-long LRT planning was made by only Bing, Snyder, and LaHood. Every other party involved in the project or who would be effected by it were blindsided, the private investors, the region's congressional delegation, DDOT, SMART, SEMCOG, who has been coordinating regional transit plans for years, now, etc...

The Southeastern Michigan Council of Governments, a regular player in transportation projects throughout the region, was not a part of discussions on the Woodward corridor.

"My understanding is that it was an extremely high level committee that consisted of only LaHood, the governor and Mayor Bing," said Carmine Palombo, SEMCOG's director of transportation programs. "That's the committee."

Snyder's office then goes on to lie in the article claiming others were involved. He then makes some bullshit claim that this does not preclude the light rail line, even though it obviously displaces it and makes it more difficult to do if you're trying to ram a BRT line down the avenue.

Why should Penske and Gilbert and the rest ever trust either Bing or Snyder on anything ever again? Why should they continue investing in a city where the mayor can smile in their faces and promise them something only to pull the carpet from out under their feet, again? Forget that this is about light rail, this is ultimately and issue about trust and credibility, and Bing & Co. blew it. I wouldn't trust either of them on anything as far as I could throw them.

If they decided to remove M1's money from support for a BRT system I don't blame them. Whose to say that they put their necks out, again, and Bing & Co. pulls another fast one on them? This is the kind of epic blundering that can cause boycotts of all kinds. Bing and Snyder can take their glorified, gussied-up, stuck-in-traffic bus lines and shove 'em.

[Detroitdave]

Detroitdave,

This is why most people have left Detroit. If you think Detroit will be aground breaking city in your life time then you're seriously mistaken. Peoplewho have entrepreneurial dreams usually get burned out and leave. It's a greatcity to become an entrepreneur but it's hard living when you're constantlybeing fought...especially by the city government. I tried to make a differenceonly to be disappointed everytime.

You should be living in Detroit for what it is. Plenty of good reasons butconvenience and a progressive city government isn't one of them.

illwill,

Lack of a clear and strong city government was a Big reason we moved away ,way back in the 80's when I was a kid, however I would come back to visit the other side of my family several times a year .
Being born in Detroit and raised between here and the west coast I was able to see both sides of the coin per se. Watching Detroit implode on it self through the 70's, 80's and 90's was heartbreaking . Watching such a amazing city going to hell was amazing .
In a way, Detroit is a lot like watching Lindsey Lohan, a train wreak you can't turn away from.
I keep thinking " now what ?' One step forward, three steps back .
I've lived in a city where a lot of the same arguments were made about rail mass transit and I've watch that rail built from the ground up, and after all the noise, pretty much, EVERY area, where the rail line goes has benefited . If you were ask anyone who used that rail system they couldn't imagine the city without it .
One would be hard pressed to find a city that has built a rail system and continue building that system, didn't work , I've only aware of a handful . This could be the first step of a much better and serious effort toward a stronger core city , I feel The city of Detroit and it's people won't really benefit from this, but once again the outer suburbs. Putting rail up "The Road of America" would be putting a spine back into Detroit . All of the spin off from rail traffic on woodward would have help revive the city core, now it will be more of the same that we already have and look how that turned out .
It's time to think outside of the box and become more forward thinking , Think 10/20 years down the road. Even though the people mover isn't the best , during events its filled with people .Had it been done right and really went somewhere , that could have been the first step and the rail up Woodward the second .
The benefits out way the means in this case .

[Pam]

IN FIVE TO TEN YEARS, PETROLEUM WILL BE UNAFFORDABLE.

WHAT WILL YOU RUN YOUR BUSES ON THEN.

Biodiesel? Already used in some places.