4 dozen Catholic parishes targeted to close, merge in Detroit, suburbs

[townonenorth]

So what? The parish to which I belong was founded by Irish canal diggers. I'm not the least bit Irish. Neither are the Hispanics, Arabs, Blacks, Indians, and half the White members of the congregation.

So you actually live in a real city. I'm jealous.

[townonenorth]

It's the suburbanites who CHOSE to flee. If you choose to move 20-30 miles from your parish, then I'd hope you'd expect your parish to be located 20-30 miles away from your new home. As I posted above, my church [[located in a downtown area) has parishoners who "commute" 20 miles each way to attend Mass. So let's get over this idea that a Diocese has a compelling need to build a new church every time a family moves further from the urban core. The Archdiocese of Detroit wrote its own ticket by--much like everything else in Southeast Michigan--completely overbuilding beyond its means to maintain the facilities.

There's more than a bit of self-righteousness going on here. For six decades [[mostly) white Detroiters have fled ever-outward. They buy a house in a newly-developed area, moving away from the trappings of civilization, then expect everyone to come running with:

*new roads
*new schools
*new water and sewer lines
*new shopping
*new police and fire protection
*new churches

All of this is EXPENSIVE beyond belief, and the current state of Southeastern Michigan attests to that. The same pile of money can only be spread over so large an area before it grows too thin to be sufficient.

At it's best, it's piss-poor long-term fiscal management. At it's worst, a naive belief that sprawling ever-outward is some sort of natural manifestation that must continue at all costs.

Sense-of-entitlement-atcha.

You are far from even coming close to the reasoning that you need to be at.

Here's a clue: There were towns, and townships, and actual PEOPLE living in these areas you speak of long before the flight to the suburbs occured. There were roads, and, by God, actual places of worship and parishes there. So to speak of some sense of entitlement would require that you take what the people that built their towns from scratch away from them.

But I'm sure that doesn't matter to you, with the myopia of the righteous.

[jcole]

Let me explain a VERY simple concept to you:

In the past 40 years, the population growth in Southeastern Michigan has been ZERO.

And let me reply very simply to you: Romeo St Clements was established in 1921, Utica St Lawrence in 1916 and Centerline St Clements in 1854. Armada St Mary of the Mystical Rose in 1946. Do you see a pattern here? There were already parishes out in the evil 'burbs for people to attend and as the population grew so did the congregations. Yes, some have been added, but there was a firm base out there before some of the city churches were established. Should the Archdiocese perhaps have not built the ones in the city and told the people of Detroit to hoof it out to Macomb county come Sunday? Or maybe have torn those down to teach them a lesson in accepting people that moved out of Detroit in the 60's?

[jhartmich]

St. Joseph's is probably the most impressive and beautiful church in the entire Archdiocese. I can't imagine they would close it. Though I do know that it has very light attendance.

IMO, it's far more impressive and beautiful than the cathedral.

We do have light attendance 125 - 175 between the two masses on Sunday. We do have some endowments that are pretty substantial. Allot of the old German families left quite a bit of money to St. Joseph Church. Per parishioner, St. Joseph takes in more money that SHM or St. Josaphat.

I would hate to lose any of the three churches. It's in God's hands. We'll see what happens.

[jackie5275]

And let me reply very simply to you: Romeo St Clements was established in 1921, Utica St Lawrence in 1916 and Centerline St Clements in 1854. Armada St Mary of the Mystical Rose in 1946.

Going up the Oakland County side you have St. Patrick's in White Lake est 1840, St. Mary's in Milford est 1890, Royal Oak Shrine est. 1925 for some examples.

[townonenorth]

Going up the Oakland County side you have St. Patrick's in White Lake est 1840, St. Mary's in Milford est 1890, Royal Oak Shrine est. 1925 for some examples.

Not to mention Ferndale's St. James at 1916 or Hazel Park St. Mary Madgelen in 1924.

[SteveJ]

You are far from even coming close to the reasoning that you need to be at.

Here's a clue: There were towns, and townships, and actual PEOPLE living in these areas you speak of long before the flight to the suburbs occured. There were roads, and, by God, actual places of worship and parishes there. So to speak of some sense of entitlement would require that you take what the people that built their towns from scratch away from them.

But I'm sure that doesn't matter to you, with the myopia of the righteous.

I'm not catholic but I'm orthodox. My church was in Palmer Park and was built in the 20's. The church ended up moving in the early 90's to Troy. Not because of the population all lived in Oakland county. The violence. The church was repeatedly broken in too. The priest's car got shot at. The church had to hire security for the parking lot. It was unsafe. People get sick and tired of that shit.

[Zacha341]

Yep, the crime and safety factor related does seem to 'emerge' eventually in this discussion as it is a compelling factor.

I'm not catholic but I'm orthodox. My church was in Palmer Park and was built in the 20's. The church ended up moving in the early 90's to Troy. Not because of the population all lived in Oakland county. The violence. The church was repeatedly broken in too. The priest's car got shot at. The church had to hire security for the parking lot. It was unsafe. People get sick and tired of that shit.

[kathy2trips]

I really hate seeing SHM and St. Josaphat on that list. Never been to St. Joseph, but I have always admired it from the outside.

St. Joseph is the patron of skilled crafts & trades, reflecting both the occupations of many of its parishioners, and the ambiance of the building itself. The interior wood, for example, is all hand carved! This church is on the national registry. High Victorian reminiscent of old St. Patrick's.

A nice article and a few photos [[and an interior shot) can be found here and a book entry here.

[rjk]

A member of St Josaphat told me that someones car was broken into during mass and this happened while a guard was on duty. Safe to say that the security guard was replaced.

Has anyone ever been to Shrine church in RO? I was wondering how it compares to some of the older churches in Detroit.

[Hermod]

So you're saying that the Archdiocese hasn't spent itself too thin by opening dozens of new parishes in the suburbs over the past six decades? The Archdiocese hasn't helped encourage dispersal of Catholics over an ever-larger geographic area? Is that what you're saying?

Move along now, nothing to see here. Everything is just peachy keen in Detroit.

When the parishioners moved from southern Germany and from eastern and southern Europe to Detroit, the Roman Catholic Church built dozens of new churches in Detroit. When the parishioners moved out of Detroit, the church built new churches to accommodate them where they were living.

The fact is that the city of Detroit has only a fraction of the Catholics today that it had "back in the day" when Detroit needed all of those Catholic churches and schools.

A church is not a building, it is a congregation. When the congregation moves, then the church has moved.

[Bham1982]

Has anyone ever been to Shrine church in RO? I was wondering how it compares to some of the older churches in Detroit.

It has an older congregation, which is not surprising given the demographics of South Oakland nowadays. Far fewer Catholic families than back in the day.

[p69rrh51]

I am going to St. Josaphat for noon mass sunday 12/4/11, who wants to go and support the church? St. Joseph has mass at 10:30 and noon. Also the is a 9:30 mass at St. Josaphat and a 10:30 at Sweetest Heart of Mary. Instead of discussing them let's show our support for them!

[beachboy]

Much of this discussion is about saving architectural beauty that transcends time and inspires many generations. As others have noted, a parish is a community of faith. Parishes merge, change in size and culture, but remain communities of faith. As the old hymn sez:

Built on a Rock, the Church doth stand
Even when steeples are falling...

Unfortunately, we don't know how to merge the beautiful physical monuments of faith created by previous generations. And the cost of their maintenance is, in many cases, prohibitive. When they are let go, we all lose great treasures that uplift our souls. And we thus accumulate sadness that corrodes our collective spirit...

[Historyguy]

Does anyone know the architect of Saint Scholastica?

[beachboy]

Does anyone know the architect of Saint Scholastica?

[from http://www.flickr.com/photos/71288712@N00/431745267/]

"The parish was founded by the Benedictines in 1928. This structure was built in 1966. At its peak in 1968, the parish counted 3000 families--drawing from the affluent Rosedale Park area. Saint Scholastica is located at Outer Drive and Southfield Road. The parish also had an elementary school and a high school."

[elementary school in business for 68 yrs:
http://www.stscholasticachurch.org/default.cfm/PID=1.11 ]

"I haven't been able to get inside, but the church has a beautiful ribbon of modern stained glass.

[by Andrew Maglia, interior view:

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Having fewer Catholic churches always seems like a sign of progress to me.

[Eastburn]

Having fewer Catholic churches always seems like a sign of progress to me.

Nice. Nothing like a little hate to brighten the day.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Nice. Nothing like a little hate to brighten the day.

I realize its an inherently offensive comment to many. But as a gay person, I'm just returning to the Church its feelings towards me.

Just a comment from a recovering Catholic.

[poobert]

I realize its an inherently offensive comment to many. But as a gay person, I'm just returning to the Church its feelings towards me.

Just a comment from a recovering Catholic.

Hopefully you can take some consolation in the fact that not all Catholics follow the temporarily misguided interpretation of the Catholic Church...those old fogies opposed autopsies and the heliocentric universe back in the day...there are many Catholics like myself who support full civil rights and marriage rights for ALL.

Oakland is lovely, by the way.

[DetroiterOnTheWestCoast]

Hopefully you can take some consolation in the fact that not all Catholics follow the temporarily misguided interpretation of the Catholic Church...those old fogies opposed autopsies and the heliocentric universe back in the day...there are many Catholics like myself who support full civil rights and marriage rights for ALL.


Oakland is lovely, by the way.

You are correct. I am not referencing individual Catholics, mostly the "old fogies" in the hierarchy. Sorry for any offense.

[Bham1982]

Nice. Nothing like a little hate to brighten the day.

I'm Catholic and attend regularly, but you have to admit that the Catholic Church has been dishing out hate in large measures lately.

There needs to be a major housecleaning in Rome, IMO. The censure of U.S. nuns for spending too much time on fighting poverty and not enough time on Republican social issues [[with no basis in the New Testament) was pushing towards the last straw for me.

[Hermod]

There needs to be a major housecleaning in Rome, IMO. The censure of U.S. nuns for spending too much time on fighting poverty and not enough time on Republican social issues [[with no basis in the New Testament) was pushing towards the last straw for me.

That's the problem. Most new nuns nowadays want to be social workers and "fight poverty" rather than being teaching sisters in the Catholic schools and fighting poverty through better education. There is also a great lack of "nursing sisters" to staff Catholic hospitals. Catholic schools and Catholic hospitals suffer from this trend.

[Bham1982]

That's the problem. Most new nuns nowadays want to be social workers and "fight poverty" rather than being teaching sisters in the Catholic schools and fighting poverty through better education. There is also a great lack of "nursing sisters" to staff Catholic hospitals. Catholic schools and Catholic hospitals suffer from this trend.

You're right that there aren't enough Sisters to staff the schools and hospitals as in past years, but the censure from Rome wasn't really dealing with that issue.

The censure basically indicated they need to spend time fighting civil recognition of gay marriage, and fighting abortion, and less time on poverty, which, even if you believe those to be worthy causes, is absurd given the context and the Sisters' devotion to the church.

It's also blatant hypocricy exhorting them to "clean house", when the Bishops have the horrible abuse cases and resulting coverups on their hands.

Pedophiles and architects of the cover ups like Bernard Law are living in imperial splendor in Rome [[and can't return to U.S., at risk of arrest), while the Sisters are excorciated for caring for and serving the poor, as Jesus did.