Moving to Detroit from Sweden; any advice?

[Zackdog]

Hmmm Zackdog. With all the red herrings and strawman arguments in that post, it is hard to know where to start.

Actually, the attitude underlying your belief that it is impossible to raise small children in Detroit is pretty offensive. From your post it is clear that you believe that it would not be prudent for a good parent in Detroit to allow their child to venture outside and, say, play with the neighbor kids like a suburban parent might. Because, you know, there really aren't any "Detroit" kids that a good parent would want their child playing with. That's why kids' activities for Detroit parents are limited to the event-type destinations [[zoo, auto show) you mentioned, right? Otherwise, you better stay inside and hunker down, right?

Oh yeah, and that bike riding point that you made is a good one too because even though the city has all those sidewalks that many of the suburbs lack, all of them without exception are littered with needles and condoms and the like, and a good parent can't have their kid encountering that. There's all that imminent danger constantly present in Detroit . Besides, the bike will get stolen immediately anyway. All of the "Detroit" kids that have bikes must have stolen them, right?

I have no idea whether you have ever raised a family in Detroit, but your arrogant dismissal of the possibility belies what countless families I personally know, including obviously mine, have experienced. [[And I'm referring to the present, not the Leave it to Beaver era.) I don't sport rose colored glasses either. I'm perfectly aware of the challenges and shortcomings of Detroit. Crime occurs far too often. A trip to the suburbs is too often necessary for retail needs. Fortunately, my family doesn't spend that much time buying shit. You know, it's not that much of a hardship to venture out to the Best Buy in suburbs every five years or so to buy a TV or a computer. Actually, I bought my last computer at the Staples in Detroit. [[Yes, there is one on E. Jefferson.)

Yes, the public schools are a problem. No kidding. But there are some excellent private and parochial school options in Detroit. Families don't have to go to the suburbs. But I'm the first to admit that if a family can't afford or is not interested in a private school education, choices in Detroit are extremely limited. But your "untrue and uninformed" post wasn't limited to this single issue.

Your point about the movies. Yes, there's no 25 screen multiplex in the city. And it would be nice to have more movie options in the city. But despite your disdain for the renovated facility at the Ren Cen, my kids have been dropped off there many times [[without the need for a tag-along adult when they got old enough) to see a flick. And then after the movie, they and their friends [[again without the helicopter parent) have enjoyed the non-suburban experience of actually using their feet to walk to Greektown to get some ice cream or pizza.

Doctor and dentist are south of Eight Mile too. And guess what, I haven't encountered a gunshot victim in my doctor's waiting room yet. Another thing, just so you know, last I checked, the city also had a couple of hospital choices other than Detroit Receiving [[with its world class Level I trauma center).

Zackdog, everybody in this region is aware of Detroit's serious shortcomings, but your conclusion that the city is completely unlivable and that families have to escape to the suburbs for all of their everyday needs and activities is plainly "untrue and uninformed." You contribute to the region's problems when you perpetuate your misguided myths.

I seriously doubt nor would anyone really recommend and the population exodus over the past ten years literally confirms that people don't want to raise their kids in Detroit, plain and simple. The city continues to contribute to it's own problems - do you like, NOT read the papers or watch the news? If you feel comfortable raising your kids in a city where you can't leave anything outside your house for 5 minutes without it getting stolen, then all the power to you.

I, for one, as well as probably 4.5 million other metro-Detroiters don't care to live in a city where one block is nice, surrounded by crap where you can't feel safe going to get a gallon of milk after 5 without carrying your gun and a can of pepper spray.

If you're a student or in the medical profession, then fine, live downtown or in midtown. If you have kids, then why would you want to given the choice? I know there are certain neighborhoods around that are nice, but seriously. And sidewalks? Have you seriously taken a good look at a lot of the weed-choked and broken and cracked sidewalks throughout the city that you can't walk on without tripping? Or perhaps seen the dumping grounds throughout the city? I'm not saying there aren't any decent, nice neighborhoods with good people living in them who aren't proud of where they live.

But I'll take good ol' suburbia any ol' time. At least I know my neighbor's kids aren't going to throw their fastfood packaging on my yard and there isn't going to be a wrecked and broken down car, boat, or motorhome sitting in the street for months at a time. My streetlights work, all the time. I don't hear loud rap music blasting at all hours of the night. My flower pots aren't taken off my front porch. None of the houses on my street, or neighborhood for that matter, are burnt out or boarded up. People trim their own bushes, lawns, and tree limbs and aren't hanging out on the front porch doing jack while their yard is in shambles.

I'm completely aware of our world class hospitals and could even rattle off their street addresses for you if I wanted.

So yea, I guess the city does have it's shortcomings. And no way in hell would I recommend ANYONE with small kids to move into the City of Detroit even if it would help it evolve.

btw, I've never had any problems or issues in the city at all, other than having my car broken into a couple of times back in the 80's, but you'd better pay that homeless guy to 'watch' your car while you go inside wherever you're going.

Can you honestly recommend to someone from Sweden with two small kids to move into Detroit and tell them it's a World Class city? Sure, after their bike gets stolen.

[brizee]

And what exactly would a person with 2 small children do in Detroit if they weren't attending a sporting or cultural event? Riverwalk? Not every day and not from October thru April. Out to eat? Once in awhile but gets expensive with 2 small kids. Biking? Where? In the street? The Zoo is in the suburbs. The Auto Show? That's only once a year. Shopping for kids clothes? Suburbs. Movies? Ren Cen in 35 year old theaters or the suburbs? Dentist? Suburbs. Doctor? Detroit Receiving? Nope, suburbs. After school activities? Right. Will they be able to park their car in the street and still have it be there and in the same condition the next morning? Will they feel safe? What if they need EMS? Or the Police for that matter? In the suburbs they're at your door in 5 minutes. In Detroit you're lucky they show up at all. Maybe you should show them that map that was in the Free Press a week or so ago that showed where the 3300 murders took place over the last 10 years - looked VERY spread out throughout the entire city to me. No neighborhood was immune unless it was mostly abandoned like by the old Tiger Stadium area or Del Ray. Littering is everywhere. Homeless are everywhere.

So what is untrue and uninformed?

Drive down West McNichols and tell me there's no doctors or dentists in this city. Or Puritan and Ilene. Or any other goddamn number of local doctors and dentists and other medical facilities all over this town.

Go to Adams Butzel on Lyndon ANY time of day and tell me how many kids you don't see swimming or boxing, or playing hoops.


Or don't seeing as how you might fall over all the homeless people.

That horseshit you just plopped on this forum was dishonest.

This city has some major fucking problems with some weak leadership. It's probably 60-40 bad areas to good. But don't spread misinformation.

And to the OP, I live on Ilene north of the lodge near Marygrove College. It's a pretty decent neighboorhood. I've seen some worrying signs but it's still holding on. Some pretty nice neighboorhoods close by are University District near UDM and the area bordered by Mcnichols and 7 Mile and Wyoming and Livernois. Bates Academy is near and I heard they're supposed to be decent.

My sister just moved to North Rosedale Park. And the neighboorhood is beautiful. Niece just started Detroit Edison Public. No idea of it's quality.

Wherever you choose bring some positivity. This areas doesn't export cars anymore we produce bitching complaining bellyaching and fingerpointing.

PS Yes that last comment is ironic as hell. Waddayawant I've been here my whole life.

[jt1]

And what exactly would a person with 2 small children do in Detroit if they weren't attending a sporting or cultural event? Riverwalk? Not every day and not from October thru April. Out to eat? Once in awhile but gets expensive with 2 small kids. Biking? Where? In the street? The Zoo is in the suburbs. The Auto Show? That's only once a year. Shopping for kids clothes? Suburbs. Movies? Ren Cen in 35 year old theaters or the suburbs? Dentist? Suburbs. Doctor? Detroit Receiving? Nope, suburbs. After school activities? Right. Will they be able to park their car in the street and still have it be there and in the same condition the next morning? Will they feel safe? What if they need EMS? Or the Police for that matter? In the suburbs they're at your door in 5 minutes. In Detroit you're lucky they show up at all. Maybe you should show them that map that was in the Free Press a week or so ago that showed where the 3300 murders took place over the last 10 years - looked VERY spread out throughout the entire city to me. No neighborhood was immune unless it was mostly abandoned like by the old Tiger Stadium area or Del Ray. Littering is everywhere. Homeless are everywhere.

So what is untrue and uninformed?

GIve me a break. What is uninformed is your post. So let's go through them one by one:

1. What to do with the kids. Well, if they choose Lafayette park there is the park, the Dequindre cut, eastern marker, the riverwalk. Biking is great in all the places I just listed. Let's continue looking at the items:

- Riverwalk: Certainly enjoyable October thru April. You know, there are things like gloves, coats, etc.
- Eating out? Pointless argument as the options are plentiful but it is no different than living in the burbs, if they choose to cook at home it is no different.
- The zoo is in the suburbs and a short drive [[just like people in most suburbs as well). There is also the DIA, DHS, Campus Martius, CWMAAH, Children's Museum. Just a ridiculous argument.
- Shopping for kids clothes. Possible suburbs but most people in the suburbs drive to malls. It's not as if there is shopping within walking distance of most people's homes. Completely irrelevant point.
- Movies: Maybe the Ren Cen or Fairlane. Just as close as a mall is to most people.
- Dentist: My dentist is in the city, close to LP and is great.
- Doctor: Detroit has plentiful options beyond DR. I would say that living near downtown actually offer more options in close proximity. That includes specialists and top doctors for thos insured.

Your lack of knowledge on what is available in the city is pretty apparaent. It's also comical that you seem to think the ameneties you listed are just a short walk from most suburbanites homes.

Overall, it's clear you have no idea what you are talking about. I'm curious if you have kids. If so, let's hear all these wonderful options for them that don't require you to drive.

[Zackdog]

Wow. What an amazingly untrue and uninformed statement.

That last message was for you.

[laphoque]

Unless you go to sporting or cultural events, everything you do will be done in the suburbs.

What do you mean everything will be done in the suburbs? I don't do anything in the suburbs except visit my elderly family. I'm too busy/don't want to lose my parking spot for Meijer so I use Amazon for anything I can't find around town on my bike [[which looking at my buying history is mostly just specialty items like an espresso percolator.. which perhaps I should have checked Hirt's–opps).


But on point:


You, your kids and your wife will need to learn to deal with a level of poverty America tolerates which would be intolerable in Sweden. Although, there are bums in Europe too now that I think about it. They just seem to be there more by choice: like young anarchists with dogs. Although I do remember some old smelly dudes as well so there are nuances.


I'd recommend [[as others have) LaFayette Park if you want modern architecture. It's also perfectly located for you. Eastern Market is by far the cheapest and best spot to get groceries. Your kids could go to Waldorf or Friends School which aren't far but cost tuition. Or you could actually check out Detroit Public Schools which do have some schools that are rated higher than some of the suburban schools so make sure to actually check the rankings. You can find the State's rankings here: http://www.michigan.gov/mde/0,1607,7-140-37818_56562---,00.html

Although next year all of the schools are slated to drop dramatically in the rankings because they're reworking how they rate them. Even the suburban schools may no longer be proficient. http://detnews.com/article/20111103/...allenges-ahead


Keep in mind that American public education doesn't really prepare you for college as well as the European schools. The difficulty level for me as an exchange student to France was much higher in France than my middle of the road northern Michigan public school. You may have to supplement their learning even if they go to the best American public school to get them to an acceptable level for you. We have a strong anti-intellectual streak. Luckily for you, you will probably feel very rich. Detroit is very cheap and the taxes are much lower here than in Sweden. You will be able to pay to have your kids come up in an acceptable manner regardless of your neighborhood choice.

Most of the white kids I know who grew up in Detroit went to Friends School, University of Detroit Mercy High School, and then to a University of Michigan or Michigan State. It's been almost twenty years since they would have started elementary school though so conditions could well be different today. The ones who went to DPS did not have good things to say: but they were talking about the teachers. Cass Tech, for example, can have huge inpersonal lecture-hall classes where students are called by a number.

Here are some resources you may like to look into about raising kids in the city.

http://www.sweet-juniper.com/ An interesting blog about a lawyer turned stay at home dad who you could potentially contact for advice. He doesn't disclose on his blog as far as I can tell where he sends his kids for school but I bet if you emailed him he could give you real info on what it's actually like. His kids are about the age of yours.

http://Metroparent.com has some resources. They even wrote an article about raising kids here. http://www.metroparent.com/Metro-Par...ty-of-Detroit/

You'll have to pay for your five year old to go to preschool though because America doesn't really have free preschool. I don't know if it's any good but I've seen this while walking around and it might be something to look into: http://mpsi.wayne.edu/education/ecc.php it's Wayne State University's child research center and they have a preschool.

Another note: Detroit is for the most part not a 24-hour city. Many of the grocery stores close around 8pm, although there's some in Hamtramck that stay open later til like midnight. Things have shorter hours on Sunday. We were a French city after all. We still have some of that mentality.

Detroit really is a great place to live. I know everything I just wrote looks overwhelming. But you will get to say you were there when Detroit had to dramatically recreate itself to survive. You are arriving at a critical hour for our metro and nation. And you will have the best seats in the state; come what will.

PS The ONLY place in the Detroit area where you will experience European-like security is Windsor. It's just across the river, but they really do things differently over there.

[iheartthed]

Another note: Detroit is for the most part not a 24-hour city. Many of the grocery stores close around 8pm, although there's some in Hamtramck that stay open later til like midnight. Things have shorter hours on Sunday. We were a French city after all. We still have some of that mentality.

Seems like Detroit's a pretty late operating city by European standards... Even the major cities like London and Paris have shut down by midnight, whereas in Detroit you'll still find restaurants serving food then.

[j to the jeremy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9gN2hdybFY

If you go on walkscore.com, the part of Midtown just south of WSU has the highest walkscore in the state of Michigan.

http://www.walkscore.com/score/680-W...ave-Detroit-MI

Corktown is pretty high as well:
http://www.walkscore.com/score/Porter-and-Trumbull

If you live on Main St. in Royal Oak, it rates just shy of living in a midtown neighborhood, but it's 3x as expensive.

http://www.walkscore.com/score/Main-St.-Royal-Oak

[bopcity]

One reason we want to live in the city rather than the suburbs [[which I understand are nice) is to be close to Detroit's city amenities, so if the neighborhood has shops and cafes to walk to that would be very good.

Ferndale and Royal Oak would both fit that bill, both are pedestrian friendly, with ample housing stock, relatively low crime, downtown and the Cultural Center easily accessible, a quick 15 minute drive down Woodward. Bus service is also much better in those areas.

Midtown's great but the two boy's school considerations might make that problematic. Doubt you'll find any situation that touches all your bases so best to prioritize your wish list, figure out what's most important to you and your family.

[bartock]

I would advise you to drive on the other side of the road here.

[ndavies]

I would advise you to drive on the other side of the road here.

That would get him killed. Sweden drives on the same side of the road we do.

[bartock]

That would get him killed. Sweden drives on the same side of the road we do.

dammit....

[rjk]

Off the top of my head: Grand River from about Greenfield to about Lahser. If you live in Grandmont, Rosedale Park or North Rosedale Park, you can get just about anything you need without having to use a bus or a car. There is a grocery store, several drug stores, numerous restaurants, dry cleaners and even a gym. The only thing missing is a major clothing retailer, which you'll have to drive to a mall to find... But you'd have to do that from just about any of the suburbs that you named as well.

That sounds like the unwalkable area/suburb that I live in. Actually that sounds like 1/4 of the unwalkable area I live in.

[gnome]

If one takes into consideration all the requirements:


- bike to downtown
- public school within walking distance of home
- walkable shopping district
- safety

I think the only place to consider is Lafayette Park.

As nice as Indian Village, Grosse Pointe, Corktown, Birmingham, Plymouth, or Palmer Park might be the only place that fits all of the criteria is LP.

[Flintoid]

Definitely Lafayette Park. Good school in walking distance, gorgeous park, very unique architecture, and right next door to downtown. Very walkable, bikeable, and a grocery store just opened in the neighborhood this year. I'm sure some other posters who live in the neighborhood could help you out with more details. And as far as education goes, if you dont want to go the Chrysler School [[the one in lafayette park) route, there are many excellent private and charter schools in the city. I'd avoid the suburbs, you would be forced to spend half your life in a car and for someone seeking walkability in the general downtown area, you certainly will not find it in the suburbs. Welcome to Detroit! Hope you love it as much as I do!

[Neilr]

As Pam, gnome and others have posted, Lafayette Park seems to best meet your criteria.

The Mies van der Rohe townhouses are coops as are most other townhouses in the neighborhood so renting is not a likely possibility. The 3 Mies glass high rise apartment buildings are rental. 1300 is a 28 story coop apartment building designed by Gunnar Birkerts that does permit some limited rental of units.

The internet has many, many links to articles, pictures, and videos about Lafayette Park. If you're interested, here's several to get you started.



http://www.modeldmedia.com/features/lafayette07.aspx


http://curbed.com/archives/2010/11/2...te-park-qa.php


http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=lafa...k+detroit&f=hp


http://blog.miessociety.org/post/128...ayette-park-in


http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com...ing-with-mies/


http://www.flickr.com/photos/jschiem...7626780007976/

[mwilbert]

First, let me say I hope you find a place you really like in Detroit.

Second, I'd never dis Lafayette Park, which I love, but it is almost too close to bike downtown. And while there is nearby shopping, I don't think there is any place inside the city limits that really offers a good variety of shopping. [[Incidentally , I disagree with Bham1982 about Livernois--there are actually a number of useful stores a half-mile either side of 7. Of course it isn't what it was when I was a kid, or should be now. ) You can easily bike downtown from Midtown, or Corktown, or Mexicantown, or even Boston-Edison. Detroit is completely flat, and riding downtown even from Sherwood Forest is feasible if you are in decent shape. If you stay near the Woodward corridor, you can have reasonable bus service on days riding is not what you want to do.

Here's the problem. You are likely to have a hard time finding a public school you [[and your wife, often a bigger issue) are willing to send your kids to, and while there is nowhere in metro Detroit that is as safe as Sweden, there is REALLY nowhere inside the city limits that is close to that safe. Even most Americans who are used to a relatively high level of violence and crime can't deal with Detroit, so it is possible you won't want to deal with it.

If that turns out to be the case, you might consider one of the nearer Grosse Pointes; they are close enough to bike downtown, you would likely find the schools acceptable, and there is some shopping.

[Gistok]

Welcome Zeyrek!

I have one piece of advice.... you can be thankful to the Swedish government back in the 1960s...

Back on the 3rd September 1967... Sweden followed the rest of continental Europe and everyone in your country started driving on the right side of the road starting that Sunday morning... [[after years of planning, public resistance, and bus conversions!)...

So now driving is going to be a lot easier for your family!

And you can forget about most [[but not all!!) of these road signs of Sweden.... [[courtesy of LEGO)....

[kryptonite]

Zeyrek - welcome to Detroit and to our state of Michigan. Please consider contacting some people who live in the area and do your research well before you move into Detroit. I love our city and lived most of my life in Detroit, but please keep in mind Detroit like most large American cities has problems with crime, urban decay, and poor schools. Detroit also has a problem with a lack of retail establishments which includes basics such as grocery stores.

I think it would benefit you to know the good and the bad aspects of the city before deciding to live somewhere close enough to Downtown to allow you to ride a bicycle to work. Keep in mind that you have a wife and children and safety could be an issue at times.

And if you see and learn enough about Detroit and still decide to live near Downtown then congratulations. There are many wonderful places to visit in Detroit such as our art institute, many theaters, sports arenas, restaurants, beautiful old buildings and churches, etc.

A friend of mine from Sweden lived in Detroit for several years before returning to Sweden. During the time he lived here I was personally robbed at gunpoint and my house was broken into. We were friends at the times of these events and he was very disturbed by the crimes and shocked. He was from the Lund area and crime was not a major issue for him and his wife in Sweden.

Even if you decide to live in the suburbs of Detroit you will find many nice places and Michigan is a beautiful state, my Swedish friend thought northern Michigan reminded him of central Sweden where his family owned a small farmhouse. Best wishes and welcome.

[iheartthed]

It's funny how a foreigner has come and said he wants to move to the city of Detroit, for whatever reason, and a significant amount of this thread has been devoted to trying to persuade him to do otherwise. That in itself is not so problematic... If you think that he would not find what he expects to find in the city. But do you think he'll find what he states are his preferences in the places that have been suggested as alternative? I doubt you do. So why not instead suggest that he rethink coming to Metro Detroit period? [[If this is a legitimate noob, he's probably already rethinking it.)

[jefferson78]

Sorry Bham, The problem I have with Oakland county is too many people.
It's great if you like being stuck in traffic. Dealing with crowds everywhere you go and
the me-first attitudes of a lot of suburbanites.
I prefer to live in a mostly rural area, where I can look out my window and not have to look into my neighbors living room. People tend to be a litle bit friendlier and you can actually breathe.
Granted, that may not be for everyone. Some people like the hustle and bustle of a urban area. Just isn't for me. I avoid Oakland county whenever possible.

[Bham1982]

Sorry Bham, The problem I have with Oakland county is too many people.
It's great if you like being stuck in traffic. Dealing with crowds everywhere you go and
the me-first attitudes of a lot of suburbanites.

I think you make reasonable points.

If I were to generalize, traffic in Oakland is worse, folks tend to be less considerate, and there's generally more passive-aggressive behavior.

That said, these differences are largely symptons of greater prosperity. There's more traffic/crap behavior because there's more people, jobs, wealth and commerce relative to other local areas.

[bopcity]

If I were to generalize, traffic in Oakland is worse...

Traffic on thoroughfares like Telegraph and Northwestern might be maddening but the Woodward corridor's generally not that bad, is it? Anyone commuting from Novi's lost their mind.

Not that any of that's particularly relevant to the topic.

[Bham1982]

Traffic on thoroughfares like Telegraph and Northwestern might be maddening but the Woodward corridor's generally not that bad, is it? Anyone commuting from Novi's lost their mind.

Not that any of that's particularly relevant to the topic.

I think Woodward Corridor has pretty bad traffic.

Try to drive Maple through downtown Birmingham during rush hour. How many light changes does it take to get through Maple/Southfield Rd?

It's about as slow-moving as any street in MI.

Woodward itself seems somewhat better than Telegraph. At the least, it seems to always move, even during the height of rush.

Orchard Lake, IMO, is the worst surface arterial. Horrible potholes, terrible drivers and nonstop congestion.

If traffic congestion is a major factor in locational decisionmaking, then move south of 8 Mile. Almost all the roads clear up south of Baseline. Or, at the least, move south of I-696.

[bopcity]

I think Woodward Corridor has pretty bad traffic. Try to drive Maple through downtown Birmingham during rush hour ... It's about as slow-moving as any street in MI.

Rarely venture that far north, nosebleed's tend to occur at high altitudes.

Orchard Lake, IMO, is the worst surface arterial. Horrible potholes, terrible drivers and nonstop congestion.

No argument there ...

[Islandman]

I'm curious as to how much advice he's received from personnel at his enginneering firm? I'd be more afraid of what his wife is gonna do to him.