Moving to Detroit from Sweden; any advice?

**Zacha341** · November-26-11, 09:05 AM

Good 'summarizing' points CC... sometimes I wonder if I can hang on. To wait for Detroit to 'recover' that is. More and more I find myself adapting to the issues of the city and noting the difference and growing contrast of lifestyle and options when I am elsewhere.

One of the good things is the friendly and good people you randomly see from time to time who wave and smile. You at least know your not completely alone in striving to stay.

Originally Posted by casscorridor

...I live a decent life in Detroit, and have lived in Woodbridge, Midtown, North End and Eastern Market. Each of those neighborhoods have things I like, but ultimately I want out of Detroit, as soon as possible. I long for vibrancy and walking outside my door to find people, activity and life rather than what i find currently which is desolate and dark. I am constantly disappointed and depressed by what I find here -- loneliness, divisiveness, segregation, alienation, violence, poverty and misery are everywhere. Detroit is a melting pot of American disorder.

Will Detroit ever recover? Perhaps one day, but not anytime soon. Too much has been lost, too many services cut, too many people have given up too many years ago, too many neighborhoods destroyed or buildings ravaged or demolished. Nothing short of revolution will turn the city around, for the sheer vastness and severity of the devastation can not be undone within the confines of capitalist development, there simply are not enough rich people to rebuild.

**epiphany** · November-26-11, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by Zackdog

She's like that on other forums I've seen her on too. Her way or the wrong way is all there is. She's right - we're wrong. Her attitude is what's the issue. Poor poor Epiphany has been screwed her whole life and her own decisions have had nothing to do with it. Ask her about her 'wicked stepfather'.

Excuse me? What other forums? I dont even use any other fucking forums, dude.

**epiphany** · November-26-11, 09:09 AM

Well, since sharing my personal experiences and failing to condone the over glorification of a failing city makes me a whiny loser, I guess that my time at this forum is up. I have tried time and time again to explain that what has happened to me is not all that uncommon. There is data to back up my experiences as well as other people. You can choose to fantasize about what you wish Detroit was, but for now it is dead. I will be so happy when I can move to a real city like Chicago or New York where there is REAL diversity.

**epiphany** · November-26-11, 09:11 AM

Actually, my stepdad did kick me out when I was very young and I was quite literally homeless. That was the second time in my life that I was homeless, and yeah, he is pretty fucking wicked. I am still not allowed in my mothers house for Thanksgiving or Christmas. You don't know him, so don't tell me that I am overreacting.

**tkierpiec** · November-26-11, 11:11 AM

Ephipany, know that there are plenty of people reading this forum who have had similar experiences to you, they just may not be posting. I am a female who recently moved away from the city to Dearborn after 4 years of one bad experience after another. I was a big champion of the city of Detroit - I grew up in Northern Michigan and for some stupid reason, was always fascinated by Detroit. After living in Ann Arbor for 8 years, I made the jump to Detroit. My experience was only in the Wayne State area but I experienced personal violence, break-ins, car theft, harassment and that's just the PERSONAL problems. I could write much more about the lack of services, the lack of shopping, etc. but I think that's been written about on this forum so many times, my voice won't really add anything new. I'm pretty bitter myself and actually pissed that I was forced to move away 3 weeks ago from a city that in many ways, even with all of the problems, that I still love. It's just not a safe place.

**Zacha341** · November-26-11, 03:34 PM

Well stated. I know as woman I am really concerned about the crime and my personal safety. Until the crime is addressed along with other issues many will be forced to leave.

Originally Posted by tkierpiec

....I am a female who recently moved away from the city to Dearborn after 4 years of one bad experience after another. I was a big champion of the city of Detroit - I grew up in Northern Michigan and for some stupid reason, was always fascinated by Detroit. After living in Ann Arbor for 8 years, I made the jump to Detroit. My experience was only in the Wayne State area but I experienced personal violence, break-ins, car theft, harassment and that's just the PERSONAL problems. I could write much more about the lack of services, the lack of shopping, etc. but I think that's been written about on this forum so many times, my voice won't really add anything new. I'm pretty bitter myself and actually pissed that I was forced to move away 3 weeks ago from a city that in many ways, even with all of the problems, that I still love. It's just not a safe place.

**stromberg2** · November-26-11, 08:14 PM

Epiphany, no need to leave, just don't get so rattled.

Stromberg2

**canuck** · November-26-11, 10:49 PM

I find 313WX and casscorridor's comments really sobering. I can't be a part of this discussion because one needs to be a witness to what all of you who live and breathe Detroit see and feel every day.

I frankly dont mind hearing anecdotal evidence of life in Detroit from Epiphany and I find the response to her plight crude and extremely disturbing. What is the use denying these problems exist outside of the statistical realm when we pretty much know the numbers are there to prove it.

The sad thing is that there is not much of a signal from anywhere that leads us to think Detroit is on the way to a metropolitan government. What characterizes Detroit metro is the lack of leverage that the surrounding cities could otherwise provide and the mortar that the central city might give to them in return. The racial divide is frightening because of the sheer size of its components. Statistics are damning enough, no need for debate on them. The time for action is past due, and this in spite of the admirable contributions people like you make every day. I really admire the bunch of you who stick it out and especially those who suffer from the shitty economy. If anything, Detroit's motto should also have a post scriptum; Y'all deserve better.

**Islandman** · November-28-11, 03:41 PM

Pretty fucking sad that English can get away with her "you just don't want to live around black people" comment and everyone is jumping all over epiphany's real and factual comments.

Call them anecdotes to belittle them all you want. Her "anecdotes" have happened to enough people in this area to be gospel.

Growing up a black woman in Detroit does not give you a pass to make comments like those.

Fact: Most people do not want to live around scumbags of any color. It just so happens that the majority of the scumbags in this area are of a particular race. That's not being racist, it's just a matter of numbers. When the majority of a city is black, the majority of scumbags will be probably be black.

Are there people in this area that don't want to live around black people? Damn right. Most of these same people wouldn't live in Detroit to prove a point either.

**iheartthed** · November-28-11, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by Islandman

Pretty fucking sad that English can get away with her "you just don't want to live around black people" comment and everyone is jumping all over epiphany's real and factual comments.

Call them anecdotes to belittle them all you want. Her "anecdotes" have happened to enough people in this area to be gospel.

Growing up a black woman in Detroit does not give you a pass to make comments like those.

Fact: Most people do not want to live around scumbags of any color. It just so happens that the majority of the scumbags in this area are of a particular race. That's not being racist, it's just a matter of numbers. When the majority of a city is black, the majority of scumbags will be probably be black.

Are there people in this area that don't want to live around black people? Damn right. Most of these same people wouldn't live in Detroit to prove a point either.

The problem with Epiphany's statements is that she assumes her truth is the same as anyone else who chooses to live in Detroit. Plenty of people have offered counter narratives of their own experiences and they are dismissed as hipsters, yuppies or wearing rose-colored glasses.

**Bham1982** · November-28-11, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by Islandman

Pretty fucking sad that English can get away with her "you just don't want to live around black people" comment and everyone is jumping all over epiphany's real and factual comments.

IMO, the massive ethnic changes in suburbia have blunted these types of accusations. Yes, there is still plenty of bigotry, but most folks, regardless of race, are quietly living their lives in suburbia.

Most middle class African Americans in Metro Detroit happily choose to live in the suburbs, not the city. This is no different from other ethnicities. There is tremdendous diversity in many suburbs.

**Mikeg** · November-28-11, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Islandman

Pretty fucking sad that English can get away with her "you just don't want to live around black people" comment and everyone is jumping all over epiphany's real and factual comments.

Call them anecdotes to belittle them all you want. Her "anecdotes" have happened to enough people in this area to be gospel......

When someone pleads, "What do I have to do to validate my personal experiences? PLEASE enlighten me." she needs to understand that the validation she seeks only comes in the form of supporting statistical data - not her anecdotal evidence or the experiences of the tiny number of posters on this forum.

I was not belittling or questioning epiphany's experiences but trying to "enlighten" her on the difference between a few data points and a statistically valid conclusion. However, given her track record on this forum, I think she has a tough time seeing beyond the end of her nose.

**Bagley** · November-28-11, 04:56 PM

Um, This whole thing went really sideways. I'm glad that the consensus seemed to be that the formerly interested gentleman should have considered Lafayette Park. I'm still saddened by what this discussion turned into. I'm a black guy and I've lived in Detroit for my whole life. I've spent weeks at a time visiting friends across that country and I think that Detroit/Metro Detroit have some strong similarities to other cities. Allow any other major city to centralize all of the poor, addicted, mentally ill, etc and you'd have some of the issues you have in Detroit.

To Epiphany,

I think that most Detroiters could come up with first-hand anecdotal stories that would make a good case for a diagnosis of post-traumatic stress disorder. What makes us survivors Detroiters is how we respond to the challenges we face. I've had friends and neighbors who were murdered. Some related to criminal activity and some related to our state's lack of commitment to helping people with mental illnesses. I have the resources and education to live wherever I want and I live in downtown Detroit.

I'm a big guy so I don't get a lot of cat calls or have people treat me like meat as you've suggested, however; most of the women in my family and a lot of friends have dealt with that sort of racial and sexual harassment. I get that feeling threatened or powerless can make you angry but we all have to be cautious not to internalize those feelings. I'm always very aware of my surroundings so I often listen to the things that guys on the streets say in case I need to get involved. I've heard a ton of crazy statements from people who were just that and I've heard some hilarious retorts from strong people of all races who went on about their day with dignity and a joie de vivre. Further, every single time that my wife and I have had our cars broken into, I've remembered the iPhone cord, Macy's bag, shoe box, change, etc that we left in plain sight. We lose a lot of stuff to car theft. What we don't lose is our belief in Detroit. You seem to have lost that belief in Detroit. Maybe it isn't you, maybe it is Detroit's fault but the romance is clearly over. We get it. Much success wherever you may choose to live next. I hope that the challenges you face their temper your resolve to fix the problems.

**English** · November-28-11, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by Islandman

Pretty fucking sad that English can get away with her "you just don't want to live around black people" comment and everyone is jumping all over epiphany's real and factual comments.

Call them anecdotes to belittle them all you want. Her "anecdotes" have happened to enough people in this area to be gospel.

Growing up a black woman in Detroit does not give you a pass to make comments like those.

Fact: Most people do not want to live around scumbags of any color. It just so happens that the majority of the scumbags in this area are of a particular race. That's not being racist, it's just a matter of numbers. When the majority of a city is black, the majority of scumbags will be probably be black.

Are there people in this area that don't want to live around black people? Damn right. Most of these same people wouldn't live in Detroit to prove a point either.

Islandman, your comments were just as angry as mine were. Let's just thank God that we both have freedom of association, and that neither of us will ever have to interact in real life.

Being a nonblack person doesn't give you the right to make your comments, but I will defend to the death your right to say and believe anything that you want.

My point, which you conveniently [[and typically) overlooked, was simply this -- don't LIE to yourselves about the reasons why you make the choices that you do. I'm not going around this city or posting on this thread as if this is a colorblind world. It's not.

We will never agree. We will never see eye to eye. And we are a microcosm why this region is as sick and as sad as it is.

**English** · November-28-11, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

IMO, the massive ethnic changes in suburbia have blunted these types of accusations. Yes, there is still plenty of bigotry, but most folks, regardless of race, are quietly living their lives in suburbia.

Most middle class African Americans in Metro Detroit happily choose to live in the suburbs, not the city. This is no different from other ethnicities. There is tremdendous diversity in many suburbs.

My example of Southfield is being conveniently ignored. But of course, Southfield is filled with "scumbags," to quote Islandman's post. Which is precisely why it's not seen as desirable by many of the self-proclaimed good upstanding folks in this region.

Southfield is "gone." Any wagers on which suburban idyll's next?

**English** · November-28-11, 11:31 PM

Note to the OP from Sweden - on second thought, this is why you don't want to move here. This exchange just reminded me of all the very things I hate about the Detroit metro. At this point, I think that we'll need a couple more generations before any progress at all is made.

**Mikeg** · November-29-11, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by English

......My point......was simply this -- don't LIE to yourselves about the reasons why you make the choices that you do. I'm not going around this city or posting on this thread as if this is a colorblind world. It's not......

You began making your point with this statement - and you lost me at your generalization about "the majority of outsiders":

Originally Posted by English

Just interrupting a regularly scheduled DetroitYES argument to point out that the bolded has always made my teeth hurt. Until I joined DYes in 2003, I had no idea that the majority of outsiders didn't see city dwellers as being as human as they were. Well, yes, I did... but I thought that I was being paranoid.

Thank goodness for the internet, and the online disinhibition effect.........

You apparently understand how anonymity effects what people write on the Internet, yet you're more than willing to make a conclusion on what is in the hearts and minds of a majority based on the Internet scribblings of an anonymous few.

Oh, by the way, that "Just interrupting/Back to your regularly scheduled DetroitYES argument" shtick is just as immature as some of epiphany's mewlings. But we'll understand if you don't deign to grant us the favor of a reply.

bartock · November-29-11, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by English

Note to the OP from Sweden - on second thought, this is why you don't want to move here. This exchange just reminded me of all the very things I hate about the Detroit metro. At this point, I think that we'll need a couple more generations before any progress at all is made.

Interesting. English you threw the grenade that began this exchange. C'mon, are you really taking the position that people don't want to live - and I'm choosing my words carefully - in the Detroit of today - because people don't want to live around black or brown-skinned people? Sometimes you have to come down from your cross. Is there is ONE THING that can't be soaked to sogginess with this racial/racism mindset? Are you really suggesting that people - black, white and in-between, mind you - wary of a city of maybe 700,000 averaging more than one murder a day and with a violent crime rate many, many times above average are just trying to stay away from black/brown folks because they aren't willing to accept that there are safe areas? This isn't some elephant in the room that people fail to acknowledge. As pointed out by someone else, the only thing that wasn't acknowledged was the nature of your statement.

**Bham1982** · November-29-11, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by English

My example of Southfield is being conveniently ignored. But of course, Southfield is filled with "scumbags," to quote Islandman's post. Which is precisely why it's not seen as desirable by many of the self-proclaimed good upstanding folks in this region.

I wasn't referring to Southfield. I'm referring to places like Novi, Shelby Township, West Bloomfield, Canton.

These towns have seen an explosion in their African American population in the last few years.

So, assuming your views are accurate, and the region is horribly, fatally screwed by racism and division, then why are all these middle class African Americans choosing to live in Novi and Shelby?

They're paying twice the price to live in a McCrapbox on 26 Mile than they would pay for a gorgeous brick and stained glass home in the University District.

Why are so many African Americans making this choice? Could it be that, generally speaking, middle class folks of all races desire the same things?

Safe streets, good schools, peace and quiet? Perhaps these things aren't always codewords for bigotry.

**Pam** · November-29-11, 09:52 AM

C'mon, are you really taking the position that people don't want to live - and I'm choosing my words carefully - in the Detroit of today - because people don't want to live around black or brown-skinned people?

This is a shock to you? Not true of everyone of course, but definitely true for some people.

**ndavies** · November-29-11, 09:56 AM

All of you need to get past the race thing. This is no longer about race. This is about a city being completely disfunctional.

65 people a day, every day, decided to move out of Detroit for the last 10 years.

According to the census Detroit lost 237,493 people in 10 years, That's 23,749 people a year for 10 years. That's 65 people a day that decided to move out of Detroit during the last census span.

In 2000 Detroit was 12.26 % white, In 2010 it was 10.65 white.

That means 40,965 white people moved out during those 10 years. During the same time 185,567 black people moved out. Yes, a higher becentage of whites moved out, however the black exodus is not far behind.

People are not moving out because of the racial makeup of the city. They are moving out due to high crime, the terrible school system, very high tax rates, a lack of jobs, collapsing home values and a completely dysfunctional government.

**Bham1982** · November-29-11, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by English

Southfield is "gone." Any wagers on which suburban idyll's next?

I do think you have a point here. Many folks think that Southfield has entered a period of significant decline. To me, it does not seem much different from past years, maybe excepting the parts closest to 8 Mile.

Except for the southernmost parts, the residential streets in Southfield look [[more or less) the same. Some retail streets have declined somewhat, but most look about the same.

So I don't think you're being unreasonable when you include racism as a factor in Southfield's mediocre reputation. Seems like a decent place to me. Certainly not a "bad" place.

**iheartthed** · November-29-11, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by Bham1982

Why are so many African Americans making this choice?

Status......

**Det_ard** · November-29-11, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Status......

Because black people are all about social status, right? They don't have normal human concerns like wanting to raise their kids in a safe environment, send them to excellent neighborhood schools and enjoy city services in proportion to what they pay in taxes? Nice stereotyping.

**antongast** · November-29-11, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Det_ard

Because black people are all about social status, right?

The way you're phrasing it is obviously a ridiculous generalization, but it's not hard to see where successful members of a group that society generally perceives as "less-than" might tend to be more concerned than white folks about the image their address projects about them. If anybody who looks at you is going to subconsciously read you as "respectable," it doesn't really matter where you live.