Meijer Coming to Detroit

[iheartthed]

Well, IMO, they don't need the gas station to begin with. That's just something that Meijers will use to get extra revenue rather than having extra retail space that may or may not sit empty.

Agreed.

They could replace the gas station with another retail block but either way the main building will be in the back away from the street. It has to stay in a similar physical shape as most other big box stores for design and interior layout reasons.

If they didn't have the gas station then the building wouldn't need to be set back from the main road[[s), that's my point.

Had this been a design for Corktown or Downtown or somewhere closer to the inner-city where space is limited and valuable, then yes you'd be right about them putting the store up against the street. But since this is primarily residential area with low capacity streets with only one or two major roads, the current design makes the most sense.

Other than the larger lot sizes, the layout of this area is really not that different than the layout of Corktown: major arterial roads with major side streets feeding into them. Also, Grand River from Greenfield through Telegraph is probably one of the few remaining commercial thoroughfares in the city that hasn't completely deteriorated [[outside of downtown and midtown). Probably 80 - 90% of the buildings in that area directly abut the street. Meijer will be the standout for having such a large set back from the street.

[iheartthed]

Another thing to remember is that Old Redford isn't really an urban setting, but rather it is identical to the layout and density of inner-ring suburbs. In fact, it WAS an inner-ring suburb. That's the case just about everywhere in the city outside of the Boulevard. If you look at "downtown" Old Redford, it is designed very much like downtown Farmington or Northville. Certainly more recent development has been really, really different, but the underlying structure is the same. In fact, Old Redford was originally called Downtown Redford when it was still part of Redford Township. Grand River/Greenfield [[which I mentioned in my earlier post) was identical to the old shopping district in East Dearborn [[Michigan/Schaefer), or Ferndale [[Woodward/Nine Mile). They even had the identical stores. Detroit is a suburban region, even within the city limits. [[Maybe some of our problems stem from trying to use urban solutions in suburban-type neighborhoods. Urban solutions are perfectly appropriate for Downtown or along the Woodward Corridor or inside the Boulevard,) Places like Rosedale Park, Grandmont, the Villages were really conceived and built as "garden suburbs" that were later brought into the city proper. I think that this plan for the Redford HS site is a modern version of the kinds of neighborhood anchor stores that we saw in decades past. If the city integrates it well with transit, pedestrian traffic, and vehicle traffic, and with the surrounding community [[which already has regional drawing power, like the Redford Theater, Artist Village, Rogell Golf Course, the public library branch, and the pagoda on Redford Street) you could see some real improvement in the commercial area and redevelopment in housing.

The definition of suburb has changed a lot since it was used to describe places like Old Redford, and even Ferndale... So I don't even think it's still relevant. Until very recently [[like in this past decade) it was very odd to see a commercial building built on Grand River that didn't directly abut the street. The only one from the top of my head that existed before 1990 is the Grandland Shopping Center.

[1953]

At the annual meeting of the Jefferson East Business Association yesterday, developer James Van Dyke said that the proliferation of low home values made urban design the leading reason for people to move to the city. Something to keep in mind as we tear more zero-setback buildings down and put up more sprawl-style facades.

[eno]

Time for a musical interlude.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fltYX-fI0Y

[Danny]

I know there was a Kmart on Outer Drive and Sherwood [[closed early 2000s, just demolished within the month), not Van dyke and Lynch.

Granted, the commercial strips were already beyond repair from depopulation alone.

There was a K- Mart on Van Dyke near Lynch. I check the the lot out there.

[animatedmartian]

If they didn't have the gas station then the building wouldn't need to be set back from the main road[[s), that's my point. Other than the larger lot sizes, the layout of this area is really not that different than the layout of Corktown: major arterial roads with major side streets feeding into them. Also, Grand River from Greenfield through Telegraph is probably one of the few remaining commercial thoroughfares in the city that hasn't completely deteriorated [[outside of downtown and midtown). Probably 80 - 90% of the buildings in that area directly abut the street. Meijer will be the standout for having such a large set back from the street.

What do you consider on the street?

Along almost all of Detroit's major roads there are commercial thoroughfares and pretty much all of the have buildings that are built away from the road dating back to the 60s. Mejiers would be the stand out in being farthest from the road, but demolishing wall to wall to street buildings in favor of ones that are either surrounded by a lane of parking or with parking covering the neighboring lots is not something new. That Grandland Shopping Center by Southfield was built in 1965.

Also, the high school itself is not to the street line, at least not to Grand River or McNichols. In any case, it doesn't seem more urban than if it was still outside the city limits. I'm not sure that having Meijers put on the street line would make it any more urban just because of more pedestrian traffic. There's still a lot of other factors that make something truly "urban", like readily available mass transit.

[iheartthed]

What do you consider on the street?

For the purposes of this discussion, I am considering the location of the current school building as "on the street". There is a set back but it's less than 100 feet and the only barrier between building and street is the green space.

Nearly all of the buildings along Grand River now are far closer to the street than even the high school building, so the Meijer setback absolutely will stick out. I'll concede that this ain't the best place in the city to make the stand on maintaining urbanity, but even still this will be a stark divergence from the type of building that exists in the area now.

[Brian1979]

If they would build it like the Target in Chicago [[S. Clark and W. Roosevelt) then I wouldn't see the problem with it. As a matter of fact there is also a Whole Foods store and a Best Buy not far from that Target that both have more of an urban feel to them than any of their stores in the suburbs. The Target has it's own parking ramp and is multi level with an escalator for carts to get between the floors. I don't at all understand why Detroit can't do something like this, it's like Detroit isn't even a true major city but rather 10-15 suburbs put together.

[animatedmartian]

I don't at all understand why Detroit can't do something like this, it's like Detroit isn't even a true major city but rather 10-15 suburbs put together.

That's because it is. Outside of the CBD, density isn't that high. Some neighborhoods might have more apartment buildings than others but overall Detroit is 48% single family homes. And only 4% multifamily residential. Not sure if that includes vacant homes, but nonetheless, it's probably higher multifamily and less single family than Chicago even given the size difference.

That's going to be a lot of car dependent people who, at whichever point in time, won't necessarily depend on mass transit. Therefore strip malls [[they were being as built as early as the 50s in some areas) are pretty common in Detroit. The only true high density areas are along Woodward and Jefferson.

That's why I think an "urban" big-box store would probably be more odd than a usual suburban style strip mall in the low density majority of Detroit.

That Target in Chicago is actually pretty close to the CBD [[and down the street from the tallest residential tower in Chicago). Few would argue that Redford is near Detroit's CBD.

[Hypestyles]

with the latest announcement of city cash problems, will this derail the Meijer development project..

[Brian1979]

On the north side there are more high rise apartments, the south side is more single family homes, there are some high rises on the south side near the lakefront. But overall Chicago is known for it's high density urban core. Meijer usually has frontage stores around their stores as well which would fill in some land but the large parking lot is probably going to be a problem.

[Parkguy]

ihearttheD: Don't get me wrong. You are perfectly right that what we think of when we hear the word "suburb" is very different from what it meant a century ago-- but my point was that when these areas were built, they were actually suburbs in the style of what we now call inner-ring suburbs. The stores that were built back then reflected what was needed at that time. I think the Redford HS site plan is a modern take on that same model, which is totally appropriate for that location, and could enhance the rest of the community if the city is careful about how it is connected to the neighborhood.

[Bham1982]

If they would build it like the Target in Chicago [[S. Clark and W. Roosevelt) then I wouldn't see the problem with it. As a matter of fact there is also a Whole Foods store and a Best Buy not far from that Target that both have more of an urban feel to them than any of their stores in the suburbs. The Target has it's own parking ramp and is multi level with an escalator for carts to get between the floors. I don't at all understand why Detroit can't do something like this, it's like Detroit isn't even a true major city but rather 10-15 suburbs put together.

Those Chicago Targets are about as urban as the Target in Bloomfield Township, which is to say not really.

When faced with constrained sites, Target tends to build the store above the parking, or build some sort of garage-like parking configuration. It's still tons of free parking, though, and delivers a thoroughly suburban, auto-oriented product. You see this typology in urban centers like Chicago, but also in suburban LA, suburban DC, NJ, LI, and many other places.

Long story short, I don't think Target would build such a format unless there were space considerations, regardless if we're talking about an urban or suburban neighborhood.

[Brian1979]

I don't think that a Target in Bloomfield Township comes to the street because there is a large parking lot required there. The Target at the corner of Clark and Roosevelt in Chicago indeed comes to the street giving it an urban feel. The parking ramp is built next to and around the store. I'm not trying to argue with you but I was just at that Target store last week and have been there several times and know what it looks like. A better example here would be the Walgreen's down the street from that Target at Canal and Roosevelt that looks like any suburban Walgreens but the one at State and Roosevelt is urban. There is even a Home Depot in that area that has an urban feel to it.