Veterans Day '67 on Plum Street...

[douglasm]

It's amazxing what one remembers 40 years later. My memory says on the resturant end of Plum there was a sad little city park/playground, and I remember thinking that if the developer wanted to do something nice for the community they'd clean it up and reseed it with grass.

I think I've told this story before, but when I was at Northwood, I'd hop a bus down Friday after class, spend Friday night at the Chessmate then get a cheap room at the Hotel Grandwood, and spend Saturday night on Plum Street before catching a bus back to school on Sunday
.
The Wisdom Tooth was an all ages folk coffeehouse that did after hours jazz.. Probably the only place on Plum that had any real legittimate tie to whatever arts community there was in that area. Most everything else down there were the types of shops that migrated to The Trading Post.

[Detroitnerd]

Elton Park. It was surrounded by fine homes a century ago. I went there before they tore out the streets and it was the saddest little park I ever saw...

[ptero]

I enjoyed Plum Street near it's height at 14 on visits w/my family. It was friendly and busy when we went to see what it was about. Of course that was early evenings on weekends, sort of prime time for public consumption, sts.

By '68 or so, all the houses behind Plum street were gone from the entire neighborhood that was maybe 4 blocks by 5 blocks. Nothing still standing, early example of prairie - just clean land. But the streets were still there, Stop signs and all. We did drivers ed there while at Cass, it was just a class period during the day. We'd drive over there for practice. He'd drill us on our parallel parking near the occasional abandoned car. Nice and quiet but ya still had to drive Grand River to get there! Oh my! We'd also go all over Downtown. But he wouldn't let us hit the freeway. He thought we needed more experience w/the 'rents before tackling that.

[douglasm]

Detroitnerd....

.....Thanks for the name of the park. Low [[waist high?) chain link fence around it, what a depressing scene.

I remember one of the stores on Plum had a railroad crossbuck [[Railroad crossing) in front of it. Drove down there in '70 or '71 after the "community" had failed. The shops were all empty, but the crossbuck was still there, looking forlorn and forgotten.

[DetroitPlanner]

I used to have to park my car over by Elton Park. One day there was a male and female bum going at it on the bench.... Needless to say, with a memory like that I don't care that there is a big ugly casino there now... lol

[CassTechGrad]

I remember going there in the summer of 1967 when the street was at its best. It was a cool place. I graduated from Cass Tech in 1966 so I knew that area. I bought some incense and candles I think. I went into the army in early 1969 and never went back to Plum Street but I have happy memories of that time. Here are some pictures.

[EZZ]

I was only 11 but I remember 4 things: love beads, the smell of weed mixed with incense, long hair and see-through blouses...but I can't remember things that happened 5 minutes ago.

The guitarist looks like Brian Eno but he had more hair back then...

[gnome]

Plum Street was never really a "hippie hangout", the scene was "invented" and didn't grow organically. Basically, it was a block long row of shops ...

You bring up a very interesting point about "invented" places. We've seen a few fail: Trapper's Alley, AutoWorld, pedestrian malls in downtowns from Kalamazoo to Lansing and Battle Creek and now we have the New Paradise Valley aka Harmonie Park. I wonder why these planned places fail and organically grown ones prosper. The old warehouse district comes to mind as an area that was hopping 6 nights out of 7 dispite the fact that the area was a little rough.

What is it about planning that planners don't get? Don't mean to poke at out resident civic planners, but you guys must look at these failed experiments and wonder the same thing.

The only successful "invented" place I can recall right now, is the San Antonio Riverwalk. I'm sure there are others ...

[DetroitPlanner]

You bring up a very interesting point about "invented" places. We've seen a few fail: Trapper's Alley, AutoWorld, pedestrian malls in downtowns from Kalamazoo to Lansing and Battle Creek and now we have the New Paradise Valley aka Harmonie Park. I wonder why these planned places fail and organically grown ones prosper. The old warehouse district comes to mind as an area that was hopping 6 nights out of 7 dispite the fact that the area was a little rough.

What is it about planning that planners don't get? Don't mean to poke at out resident civic planners, but you guys must look at these failed experiments and wonder the same thing.

The only successful "invented" place I can recall right now, is the San Antonio Riverwalk. I'm sure there are others ...

How about Campus Martius, the Riverwalk, Dequindre Cut? Those are invented places and had a lot more planner input than private developments like Auto World or Trappers Alley. Look at Eastern Market, that was invented 150 years ago and is still going strong. Many pedestrian malls go like gangbusters. Look at Downtown Disney, Universal Walk, or Lincoln Rd those are successful ped malls. The lakefront in Chicago was developed by a planner. Lincoln, Jackson, and Grant Park seem pretty well used to me. Belle Isle was built by a landscape planner, it draws people despite the fact the city has little money to maintain it.

There are a lot of complicated factors in trying something new. Would you rather have a world full of Super Walmarts?

[douglasm]

Because THE MAN doesn't know what he's doing, and is trying to co-opt the will of the people.

Sorry, some leftover 60's speak. In reality, I think a lot of urban planners don't understand that neighbourhoods grow organically [[usually for a reason in certain areas) and I would like to see studies on the long term effects of many downtown "development" projects. Broadway Plaza in downtown Tacoma, WA is an excellent example of a failed concept. Since the early 60's in my area, we've had two small towns flooded by hydro dams. In one, they cashed out the merchants thinking they'd rebuild on the relocated main drag. They didn't, they just took the money and left. 5 years later, another dam flooded a town upstream. Planners put together a "new" downtown on the relocated main drag. Shops, a plaza, parking, retail space, everything. Again, nobody rented them.

Plum Street was probably, for example, the wrong place for an 'arts community' because the germ of the community wasn't there to begin with. Granted, I was young at the time, but I'd always considered Cass in the Wayne State area the "arts community" of Detroit, and if it wasn't, it should have been. It was not necessary to import people to it, it had a thriving culture all by itself and although it didn't "grow" as one might expect it would, it makes a good example of what can be done.

Planners don't seem to realise two things.

1) Neighbourhoods die. Economic conditions and factors surrounding the developments change, and there's not much you can do about it. I think that's what plagued many downtown revitalization projects. There is not much one can do from a planning standpoint to renew downtown Detroit, or Tacoma, or many other failing downtowns, at least as people remember them.

2) If you are going to attempt to "create" a community, you need a germ of whatever it is you're going to build around to exist. Riverwalk has a river that helps draw people. We've got the Columbia River flowing through Wenatchee [[WA), and the city and the PUD have built a beautiful trail/park system which is beginning to show signs of commercial life around it. A "If We Build It, They Will Rent" mentality [[like Plum Street) just won't work. You need a reason for the planned community to be there.

[CassTechGrad]

A list of Plum Street shops


Prometheus Candle Works - Was operated by Ed Dobson and Chuck Brewer. They made candles the old fashioned way, by dipping. They wanted to revive the lost art of candle making.
The Wee Folk - Operated by Tarya, Bambi and Tony Simo with help from their mother Jacquie Simo. This shop was made out of an antique wooden walk-in ice chest. The kids sold old-fashioned candy, nuts and cold drinks.
Of Cabbages and Kings - Jacquie Simo operated this antique shop next door to The Wee Folk.
Pic-A-Pearl - Owned by Ted Gilmore. Customers could pick their own pearl from a live oyster to be used in jewelry of their choice.
Tres Camp - Owned by Rick Cook. Sold art reproductions, posters and the like.
The Body Shop - Owned by William Marcus. They sold the latest fashions for men.
Other shops included: Wee Bit O'Erin; The Added Touch; The Landing; Above it All; Group Et Al; Hai-Ku Coffee House; Suede and Leather Shop; Johanna's Boutique; Little Things; Plush Puppy; Waste Basket Boutique; The Skin Shop; Oddity Earring Shop; Joint Venture; House of Mystique Incense Co.; Red Roach Coffee House; Full Stomach Restaurant; Leather, Feathers and Furs; The Emporium; The Image Makers; The Plum St. Pottery Shop, and Reality Toke.

[Mikeg]

About the spitting myth:

http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=215

I too have been inclined over the years to treat those accounts of Vietnam vets getting spit upon as just "myths". Lord knows that these guys were shamefully "used" by both the hawks and doves to further their political agendas [[cf. Congressional testimony about the 1971 "Winter Soldier Investigation" held in Detroit, MI).

However, yesterday while reading a book written by a noted historian, I noticed this personal account on page 141:

In the fall of 1971, I began to teach at Louisiana State University at New Orleans. It was painful to see how much the war had divided our students, who were mostly working-class, over the most important issue of the day. What hurt the most was the way returning veterans were treated. You could spot them immediately on campus because they still had crew-cut hair. Some of the hippies - even in New Orleans, there were many hippies - despised them. Once I saw a woman student with long hair, wearing a T-shirt with no bra, go up to a discharged veteran, spit in his face, and ask, "How many children did you kill over there?"

I would probably have considered his recollection as just more myth-making except for the fact that Ambrose had been such a vocal opponent of the Vietnam War during those years. In 1970 he had been 'invited' to leave his teaching job at Kansas State University for having publicly stated "I'll be goddamned if I'll let that SOB lecture to me on violence" immediately following an on-campus speech by President Nixon.

My take on the issue? I remember clearly the divisions and passions the Vietnam war unleashed in our society - my draft lottery number was 83 and the 'Huntley-Brinkley Report' and the M-60 tank castings being trucked down Van Dyke provided daily reminders. However, I believe that while there were many face-to-face verbal assaults of Vietnam veterans, there were extremely few spitting incidents and their numbers were inflated to mythical proportions.

[CassTechGrad]

In the early 1960’s, Communist North Vietnam, with fullmaterial and financial support from the Soviet Union and Communist China,invaded South Vietnam, along with Laos and Cambodia, with hundreds of thousandsof troops. South Vietnam, being a poor agricultural society, did not have theresources to repel the military might of North Vietnam and its communist alliesso it asked the world nations for help and America agreed to provide troops andassistance. After the world collation forces withdrew in the early 1970’s, theNorth Vietnamese communists eventually defeated the South Vietnamese defenders whichallowed the North to impose one of the most brutal and oppressive regimes theworld has ever seen on the people of the South.

I’ll never understand why Hollywood elites, collegeprofessors, and all other liberals would not support the brave South Vietnamesepatriots who were fighting in defense of their country and who only wished tolive in peace. The responsibility for the millions of innocent South Vietnamesecivilians who were murdered by the communist North Vietnamese invaders afterthe fall of Saigon rests, in a large part, with everyone who abandoned thesepoor people in their hour of need.

[eno]

In the early 1960’s, Communist North Vietnam, with fullmaterial and financial support from the Soviet Union and Communist China,invaded South Vietnam, along with Laos and Cambodia, with hundreds of thousandsof troops. South Vietnam, being a poor agricultural society, did not have theresources to repel the military might of North Vietnam and its communist alliesso it asked the world nations for help and America agreed to provide troops andassistance. After the world collation forces withdrew in the early 1970’s, theNorth Vietnamese communists eventually defeated the South Vietnamese defenders whichallowed the North to impose one of the most brutal and oppressive regimes theworld has ever seen on the people of the South.

I’ll never understand why Hollywood elites, collegeprofessors, and all other liberals would not support the brave South Vietnamesepatriots who were fighting in defense of their country and who only wished tolive in peace. The responsibility for the millions of innocent South Vietnamesecivilians who were murdered by the communist North Vietnamese invaders afterthe fall of Saigon rests, in a large part, with everyone who abandoned thesepoor people in their hour of need.

A cursory look at the wikipedia articles on the Indochina Wars and the Pentagon Papers will resolve you of your attempt at revisionism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_papers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Indochina_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War

[Mikeg]

A cursory look at the wikipedia articles on the Indochina Wars and the Pentagon Papers will resolve you of your attempt at revisionism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P......

All you can offer to counter your accusation of revisionist history are some links to web pages written by a bunch of anonymous, amateur historians who all too often cannot resist the urge to do some revisionism of their own for the gullible who are too lazy to find and cite some real "scholarship"?

Nowhere in those links do I find any mention of Harry Truman's post-WW II decision to tacitly support France's re-colonization of Vietnam and his subsequent decision to provide the French with financial support for their war against the Vietminh.

When is comes to Vietnam, there were no heroes in the ranks of US political, military and academic leaders. However, there were plenty of them in the enlisted ranks of those who honorably served.

[eno]

And your "scholastic" references are from.... I used wikipedia as a bare bones reference that would cite the plebiscite, that was scrapped, that could have peacefully determined the unification of the country. The US wouldn't allow that to happen.

[mikefmich]

I’ll never understand why Hollywood elites, collegeprofessors, and all other liberals would not support the brave South Vietnamesepatriots who were fighting in defense of their country and who only wished tolive in peace. The responsibility for the millions of innocent South Vietnamesecivilians who were murdered by the communist North Vietnamese invaders afterthe fall of Saigon rests, in a large part, with everyone who abandoned thesepoor people in their hour of need.

You gotta be kidding. You obviously know nothing about the history of Vietnam. Your post is so full of holes, it would've sunk the TItanic in 20 minutes flat.

[mikefmich]

Thanks to Plum St. I still burn patchouli to this very day. Never got any grass down there, but there were a couple instances of ass.

[CassTechGrad]

Fact: Communist North Viet Nam sent hundreds of thousands of soldiers into South Viet Nam.
Fact: Communist invaders occupied the South and killed anyone who opposed them.
Fact: American troops tried to help South Viet Nam patriots defend their county.
Fact: North Vietnamese communists chose to use war to force their oppressive political system on the South Vietnamese people.

Here’s the most hated woman in the world, Hanoi Jane, urging the North Vietnamese communists to kill more innocent South Vietnamese women and children along with the American soldiers who are trying to protect them and help keep their county free.

[313WX]

You gotta be kidding. You obviously know nothing about the history of Vietnam. Your post is so full of holes, it would've sunk the TItanic in 20 minutes flat.

Yeah, it's still hard to believe he's a Cass Tech Grad.

[eno]

Yeah, it's still hard to believe he's a Cass Tech Grad.

Fact: We only have his word for it.

[Pam]

Here’s the most hated woman in the world, Hanoi Jane

Dude, the war ended. Maybe you haven't heard. She wasn't even the most hated woman in the world back then. Most hated by a small group of hard right hawks maybe, but not the whole world.

[CassTechGrad]

I’m a simple man so please help me:

Peace = Both North & South Vietnamese governments remain separate.
War = North Viet Nam Communists invade the South and start killing everybody.

Am I OK so far??? I looked everywhere and I could not find any evidence from any history book or any Website that South Viet Nam invaded the North. Please help me with this.

Now comes the hard part:

End the War: Scenario1. North Vietnamese Communists invasion forces stop killing South Vietnamese civilians, end their occupation of the South, and return to North Viet Nam. This solution would have eliminated any additional deaths of South Vietnamese civilians.
I could not find any historical evidence that any Hollywood elites, college professors,or any other liberals supported this proposal.

End the War: Scenario 2.Have all International World Collation forces [[including American military)remove themselves from South Viet Nam, alloying the North Vietnamese Communists forces to defeat the South Vietnamese people and impose the most oppressive regime the world has ever seen on the few civilians who were still left alive in the South. I could not find any historical evidence that any Hollywood elites,college professors, or any other liberals supported any other proposal then this one.

WHERE AM I GOING WRONG?[[If you chose to respond, I’m sure it would be helpful to all who read this post if you try to be as specific in your rebuttal as you can.

[MikeM]

I’m a simple man so please help me:

Peace = Both North & South Vietnamese governments remain separate.
War = North Viet Nam Communists invade the South and start killing everybody.

Am I OK so far???

No, you're not. Peace = not dividing the country in the first place. "North" Vietnamese combatants controlled 80% of the country before they were talked into withdrawing north of the 17th parallel while awaiting elections.

[douglasm]

The first thing that comes to mind when discussing the reasons for the Vietnam War in a heated context like this is that it's been 40 years or so since the conflict started, 60 or so before it began. Give it up.

The other thing is that both pro and con arguments are too simple. Reasons and rational for the war extended all the way back to the time of Napoleon III in the 1860's, with the specific conflict mentioned above going back to WW II, and involve Japan, China and France's attempt to reoccupy Indo-China after the war. It's just not as simple as "the repressive communist North" or "the corrupt Diem led South". Most conflicts are not drawn it black and white terms. There's many shades of grey in there.