EDC votes to demo Tiger Stadium

[detourdetroit]

kraig you're absolutely right if i can glean from your definition of "experience" as meaning: in order to develop property you need site control before anything actually gets done, then i agree. if "experience" means: knowing how to butter your bread in the cod, then i understand, but don't nec. agree that it's the way things should get done. if "experience" means: putting yourself in a position of power and leverage so you can get what you want, then i also understand, but there's really no good reason imho that this was the dynamic that had to play into the disposition of tiger stadium. what's more none of this mitigates against the illogic of the situation and the fact that the EDC's decision is a stupid, shortsighted and counterproductive one.

[Det_ard]

Do you really believe that's a fair assessment of how Detroiters feel? When you look at what you and ghettopalmetto are saying, what should you expect from the City if that's how you feel about them? I certainly wouldn't classify the Mexicantown/Corktown and Warrendale areas as rich white suburbanites and tourist hipsters or as people living haggard lives. I think you're doing them a disservice. On this one, you're also doing City Council a disservice, they've sided with the OTSC every time that they've come to the table.

I think it's fair with respect to the vast majority of Detroiters. The ones who don't go to preservation meetings or even know or care which building is which downtown. There are those in the city who care deeply about preservation but, like this forum, it's hardly a true cross section of the city. I don't agree with the decisions of the city regarding preservation but sadly I think they represent the citizens accurately on this.

[ghettopalmetto]

I think it's fair with respect to the vast majority of Detroiters. The ones who don't go to preservation meetings or even know or care which building is which downtown. There are those in the city who care deeply about preservation but, like this forum, it's hardly a true cross section of the city. I don't agree with the decisions of the city regarding preservation but sadly I think they represent the citizens accurately on this.

I'd say that's a bit of a disingenuous comment. It's not the job of city leaders to ensure that majority opinion [[or lack thereof) gets enforced. It's not the job of city leaders to not give a shit about something just because the majority of the populace doesn't give a shit.

The job of the leaders of Detroit is to pursue the best course of action for the betterment of the City and its people. This decision to demolish does neither.

[Det_ard]

I'd say that's a bit of a disingenuous comment. It's not the job of city leaders to ensure that majority opinion [[or lack thereof) gets enforced. It's not the job of city leaders to not give a shit about something just because the majority of the populace doesn't give a shit.

The job of the leaders of Detroit is to pursue the best course of action for the betterment of the City and its people. This decision to demolish does neither.

It's not disingenuous, it's reality-based. There's not to many true leaders amongst the political class. They'll do what they need to do the get re-elected, or to serve their key supporters. Everywhere, not just in Detroit. What's the last courageous stand made by a pol in Detroit? One that was for the betterment of the city but went against popular opinion and their key supporters' wishes?

[ghettopalmetto]

It's not disingenuous, it's reality-based. There's not to many true leaders amongst the political class. They'll do what they need to do the get re-elected, or to serve their key supporters. Everywhere, not just in Detroit. What's the last courageous stand made by a pol in Detroit? One that was for the betterment of the city but went against popular opinion and their key supporters' wishes?

DEGC isn't an elected body.

[Cooper]

Since the discussion has hinged so far on the competence and experience of the Conservancy's Board of Directors, I thought I'd post its membership:

• Steve Benavides, southwest Detroit coach and community leader
• Gary Gillette, Editor of The ESPN Baseball Encyclopedia and co-chair of the SABR Business of Baseball Committee.
• Morris Hood III, former Michigan State House Representative - 11th District
• Kelli Kavanaugh, Greater Corktown Development Corporation Vice-President. Former Executive Director of the Corktown Citizen District Council.
• Michael Kirk, Preservation Architect in private practice.
• Thomas Linn, Chairman Emeritus Miller Canfield
• David R. Mitchell, an attorney with Miller-Canfield and Greater Corktown Development Corporation President.
• Rick Ruffner, President, Avanti Press
• S. Gary Spicer, sports and entertainment attorney.
• Steve Tobocman, former Michigan State House of Representatives Majority Floor Leader.
• Daniel Varner, Chief Executive Officer of Think Detroit PAL.
• Kathleen Wendler, President of the Southwest Detroit Business Association

Maybe they're not experienced developers, but this strikes me as a pretty solid board. I think the brunt of the fault lies with the DEGC, not the Conservancy, which has done a remarkable job so far given the terrible economy and DEGC's evident lack of faith in their efforts.

[ghettopalmetto]

I think the brunt of the fault lies with the DEGC, not the Conservancy, which has done a remarkable job so far given the terrible economy and DEGC's evident lack of faith in their efforts.

George Jackson and the DEGC would demolish the Roman Colosseum if they thought someone would build a Walmart, Applebees, and Starbucks on the site afterward.

[urbanoutdoors]

I just drove by the stadium and there are already two cranes inside the north fence... I do not believe they were there when I drove by two days ago....

[kraig]

Since the discussion has hinged so far on the competence and experience of the Conservancy's Board of Directors, I thought I'd post its membership:

• Steve Benavides, southwest Detroit coach and community leader
• Gary Gillette, Editor of The ESPN Baseball Encyclopedia and co-chair of the SABR Business of Baseball Committee.
• Morris Hood III, former Michigan State House Representative - 11th District
• Kelli Kavanaugh, Greater Corktown Development Corporation Vice-President. Former Executive Director of the Corktown Citizen District Council.
• Michael Kirk, Preservation Architect in private practice.
• Thomas Linn, Chairman Emeritus Miller Canfield
• David R. Mitchell, an attorney with Miller-Canfield and Greater Corktown Development Corporation President.
• Rick Ruffner, President, Avanti Press
• S. Gary Spicer, sports and entertainment attorney.
• Steve Tobocman, former Michigan State House of Representatives Majority Floor Leader.
• Daniel Varner, Chief Executive Officer of Think Detroit PAL.
• Kathleen Wendler, President of the Southwest Detroit Business Association

Maybe they're not experienced developers, but this strikes me as a pretty solid board. I think the brunt of the fault lies with the DEGC, not the Conservancy, which has done a remarkable job so far given the terrible economy and DEGC's evident lack of faith in their efforts.

I want you to look at this list. With Wendler, Tobocman and Kavanaugh, you have three well connected people that is able to connect with at least 8 Council Members on a moments notice. It's also no secret that those three have the entire City Planning Commission in their back pockets. Hell, Kathy Wendler was a member of CPC until issues start arising about her being a member of CPC and CPC recommending how much money her group received from NOF/Block Grant. Her group always received one of the largest amounts.

Trust me, this group benefited very well from how politics are played in this City. A group that wasn't well connected wouldn't have got anywhere near as far as this group did. Their biggest problem was that they didn't take advantage of the time that Ken Cockrel was the Mayor. They should have taken that opportunity to lock down there project. Think about it, they had the support of the Mayor, City Council and Senator Carl Levin, along with a 4 million dollar promissory note from Levin. Ken Cockrel was in the middle of a tight election and could have used the Tiger Stadium project better than he was trying to use Cobo and he's always been a huge supporter of the Southwest/Corktown District and vice versa. Let's face it, golden opportunities were blown all the way around big time. I keep telling you guys it's a matter of experience.

But, I do agree that DEGC is playing it's own angle. But with the chance that it had the OTSC could have boxed the DEGC in and didn't.

[buildingsofdetroit]

I just drove by the stadium and there are already two cranes inside the north fence... I do not believe they were there when I drove by two days ago....

http://www.freep.com/article/2009060...+Tiger+Stadium

[urbanoutdoors]

To all Preservationist, Community Members, and Sports Fans,

URGENT! Tonight at 11PM I Urge anyone who is interested in seeing whats left of Tiger Stadium Preserved to come down to Michigan and Trumbull and support the preservation efforts. There is a viable redevelopment plan and if the DEGC gets its way the city will lose out on a 22 million dollar preservation project and over 100 years at Michigan and Trumbull. Please distribute widely as we have power in numbers. Let everyone you can know!
Thanks in advance,

Joe Rashid
Corktown Resident
Preservationist
Sports Fan
Community Advocate

Contact me at Josephrashid@gmail.com

[Fnemecek]

That's right, submit to the truth. Better luck next time, you'll need it. Now get out on Michigan Ave. and make Daddy some money because you've just been pimp slapped.

No, but thank you for playing. I've just gotten tired of having to correct your blatant stupidity every few minutes.

In the past 24 hours:

• You've made a half dozen spelling errors in your posts;
• You said that the train station is across the street from Tiger Stadium;
• You said that Ernie Harwell stopped the demolition of Tiger Stadium, when it actually happened before he got involved with the OTSC;
• You point to the demolition of the post-Navin Field additions a sign of the OTSC's failure when said removal was a part of their plan from day 1 and something that they explicitly advocated for;
• You asserted that the OTSC doesn't have any cash when, in fact, they're approx. 80% of the way to their goal and have firm commitments from the federal government for the balance;
• You repeatedly chastised the OTSC for cost overruns, but fail to mention that much of it was the result of having to appease the DEGC's various demands - such as the almost $3 million paid for securing and maintaining the property to date.

And the list just goes on.

Please, Kraig - for your own sake - log-off your computer at least until you finish junior high. The fact of the matter is that you couldn't pimp slap a turtle if I gave you 3 chances and a paddle.

[Fnemecek]

George Jackson and the DEGC would demolish the Roman Colosseum if they thought someone would build a Walmart, Applebees, and Starbucks on the site afterward.

The fact of the matter is that if someone was going to build a Walmart, an Applebee's and a Starbucks then I'm not sure if I'd really mind Tiger Stadium coming down so much.

The sad reality is that we won't even get that. All we're going to have is the George Jackson Gardens - another large, vacant lot with overgrown grass and filled with trash.

[kraig]

No, but thank you for playing. I've just gotten tired of having to correct your blatant stupidity every few minutes.

In the past 24 hours:

• You've made a half dozen spelling errors in your posts;
• You said that the train station is across the street from Tiger Stadium;
• You said that Ernie Harwell stopped the demolition of Tiger Stadium, when it actually happened before he got involved with the OTSC;
• You point to the demolition of the post-Navin Field additions a sign of the OTSC's failure when said removal was a part of their plan from day 1 and something that they explicitly advocated for;
• You asserted that the OTSC doesn't have any cash when, in fact, they're approx. 80% of the way to their goal and have firm commitments from the federal government for the balance;
• You repeatedly chastised the OTSC for cost overruns, but fail to mention that much of it was the result of having to appease the DEGC's various demands - such as the almost $3 million paid for securing and maintaining the property to date.

And the list just goes on.

Please, Kraig - for your own sake - log-off your computer at least until you finish junior high. The fact of the matter is that you couldn't pimp slap a turtle if I gave you 3 chances and a paddle.

I see you're still anal about spelling.
I said the train station was not directly across the street but close enough for discussion purposes. But I see you're still anal about that too.
When Ernie Harwell went to Council, demolition had already begun. He got City Council to convince the DEGC to cease demolition. If OTSC had been successful in stopping the demolition,as you contend, how do you explain 75% of the stadium being torn down?
You do understand that cash is what you have on hand, not what is earmarked for you?

So, are you saying that the additional 18 million that was added to the project was due to the 3 million paid for securing the property? That must be some of that fancy new math people talk about.

Face facts, the OTSC has the CPC in their back pockets, they have the support of City Council, they had the support of the man that was the mayor, and could have gotten the DEGC to do anything he wanted, for over 6 months and the support of a United States Senator and 4 million that came with that support. That is every other Conservancy Groups wet dream scenario anywhere in this country. They failed to seize a golden opportunity, period.

Now, run me my money.

[jtf1972]

I would like to see a scaled back plan that would allow for future expansion. Make it a park extending to 12th St. that has as it's big feature the original Tiger Stadium playing field & outfield dimensions. Plant it to be a lush, green space that makes a great setting for little league or softball games. Gate it off and charge a fee for usage of the field, to pay for upkeep. Call it Bennett Park, since that was the name of the original ballpark there and the Tigers have went downtown to Illitch's giant bat & ferris wheel emporium a decade ago. A statue of Charlie Bennett would be a nice touch, and a Michigan Sports History Museum would be perfect down the road.

[erikd]

I think it's fair with respect to the vast majority of Detroiters. The ones who don't go to preservation meetings or even know or care which building is which downtown. There are those in the city who care deeply about preservation but, like this forum, it's hardly a true cross section of the city. I don't agree with the decisions of the city regarding preservation but sadly I think they represent the citizens accurately on this.

This assertion, which claims that city government is just reflecting the anti-preservation wishes of city residents, is simply not true. To be sure. the vast majority of city residents do not care deeply about preservation, just like the vast majority of suburbanites do not care about preservation, just like the vast majority of Americans do not care deeply about preservation. However, this doesn't mean that these people are anti-preservation. It just means that they are much more concerned with other issues.

Dave Bing publicly [[in a mayoral debate) gave his support for the preservation of Tiger Stadium shortly before he was elected. There was no public outcry or voter backlash in response to his support of preservation, because most people simply don't care, one way or the other.

Detroiters are concerned with schools, crime, transportation, public services, and job creation, not anti-preservation crusades.

Most people don't care about preservation, but they would much rather see a restored Book-Cadillac or Fort-Shelby than another weed-filled empty lot like the Tuller or Statler.

[Fnemecek]

I see you're still anal about spelling.
I said the train station was not directly across the street but close enough for discussion purposes. But I see you're still anal about that too.

And just when I thought that Dick Cheney had a monopoly on revisionist history, Kraig pops in to say that he never said that the train station was across the street from Tiger Stadium. Evidently, he forgets that these posts don't just disappear from the forum.

Kraig said:

Fact 3. All one has to do is look across the street at the train station and see that I'm telling it the way it is.

If OTSC had been successful in stopping the demolition,as you contend, how do you explain 75% of the stadium being torn down?

Because only 75% of the stadium was torn down - which was exactly what they lobbied for from day 1. Really. Try paying attention some time. It was in all of the newspapers and everything. Ask your teachers. They'll explain to you how a newspaper works.

You do understand that cash is what you have on hand, not what is earmarked for you?

Yes. Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to hand the City of Detroit more than $3 million in cash for security and maintenance of the site? Or the bond that the DEGC demanded? Or the $350,000 that the wanted when the MOU was signed almost 2 years ago?

Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to pay for the architects who did all of their renderings? Architects don't work for earmarks.

Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to pay for the consultants who took care of their tax credit applications?

Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to pay for the office that they've been occupying for the past 2 years? Or their web site? Or any of the other expenses of running their operation?

Do you understand anything?

Really. I wasn't kidding. For your well-being, please log-off your computer until you finish junior high.

[Novine]

Poor Geo. Jackson, he can't get a fair shake in the world. He's king of his land of demolition and doesn't understand why the rest of the world doesn't appreciate his ways.

http://detnews.com/article/20090604/...k-at-Olbermann

[kraig]

And just when I thought that Dick Cheney had a monopoly on revisionist history, Kraig pops in to say that he never said that the train station was across the street from Tiger Stadium. Evidently, he forgets that these posts don't just disappear from the forum.

Kraig said:



Because only 75% of the stadium was torn down - which was exactly what they lobbied for from day 1. Really. Try paying attention some time. It was in all of the newspapers and everything. Ask your teachers. They'll explain to you how a newspaper works.

Yes. Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to hand the City of Detroit more than $3 million in cash for security and maintenance of the site? Or the bond that the DEGC demanded? Or the $350,000 that the wanted when the MOU was signed almost 2 years ago?

Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to pay for the architects who did all of their renderings? Architects don't work for earmarks.

Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to pay for the consultants who took care of their tax credit applications?

Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to pay for the office that they've been occupying for the past 2 years? Or their web site? Or any of the other expenses of running their operation?

Do you understand anything?

Really. I wasn't kidding. For your well-being, please log-off your computer until you finish junior high.

Did they have enough cash on hand to meet their March 1st deadline? NO.

Did they have enough cash on hand to purchase the property so that they would have leverage for this occasion? NO.

You need to understand how business works. You spend your money, if you have it, to advance your deal, not to put yourself in a holding pattern. All they ended up doing was stalling themselves out until they were out of money.

If they had 22 million as a lot of people appear to claim, they wouldn't have missed the March 1st deadline.

They also had the past 3 months to pay the money that was due March 1st and didn't. That doesn't sound like anyone flushed with cash.

After you first brought up the location issue with the train station, I responded in another post[[see post #77). I see that you managed to omit that from your response. It also wasn't even a relevant part of the point that I had made, but since you don't have the capacity to argue that well on points you chose to deflect.

I see that you haven't bothered to respond to my posts that the OTSC blew a golden opportunity while Cockrel was mayor. Because you know it's true. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for your next response, oh excuse me, deflection.

[ghettopalmetto]

Did they have enough cash on hand to meet their March 1st deadline? NO.

Did they have enough cash on hand to purchase the property so that they would have leverage for this occasion? NO.

You need to understand how business works.

Kraig, if you understand how business works, maybe you can explain why you're holding the OTSC to a higher standard than a private real estate developer.

These types of projects are *never* done with "cash on hand", nor do 100% of monies need to be "in-hand" before work can begin. The City could have turned this property over quite easily, but they refused to do so.

This decision by DEGC is purely political. If you look at their track record, it becomes quite clear that DEGC has more interest in demolition than they do development.

[Fnemecek]

Please go easy on Kraig. Real estate development isn't normally taught until the 10th grade. It's a little over his head.

[kraig]

Kraig, if you understand how business works, maybe you can explain why you're holding the OTSC to a higher standard than a private real estate developer.

These types of projects are *never* done with "cash on hand", nor do 100% of monies need to be "in-hand" before work can begin. The City could have turned this property over quite easily, but they refused to do so.

This decision by DEGC is purely political. If you look at their track record, it becomes quite clear that DEGC has more interest in demolition than they do development.

I'm holding them to the standard of a group that is familiar with the city's system and had more support from the city than people want to acknowledge. In case you haven't read all of my other posts, I'll reiterate.

The OTSC had the support of City Council, the City Planning Commision, Senator Carl Levin and 4million dollars, one of their Board members was a former employee of Maryann Mahaffey, one was a former member of the City Planning Commission and one was the floor majority leader up until January 1st. In the middle of a tight mayoral race were both candidates stated support for the project, there were just too many ample opportunites to get the deal done that were not pursued. Conservancy groups all over would give anything to be in the position that the OTSC was in. So if it seems that I'm holding them to a higher standard it's because opportunity knocked and they didn't answer.

You also need to have enough cash on hand to meet your benchmarks, or deadlines in this instance. It's not just about real estate. It's about how you're going to run your business.

The DEGC is going to do whatever the Mayor tells them to do. The OTSC should have had Cockrel tell DEGC to turn over the property.

[kraig]

Please go easy on Kraig. Real estate development isn't normally taught until the 10th grade. It's a little over his head.

Case in point, deflection.

[rjk]

Comment by GJ:
"The Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy had an ambitious plan to renovate part of the property for recreation and education, but over the course of two years they could not even come close to raising funds from the community to support it. ..."

So how much did the OTSC raise and what was the total amount they needed to move forward with their plan? I'm not talking about tax credits, but money raised through donations. Tough economy, no refund policy, and not much media attention given to the OTSC fund raising efforts, I'm not surprised that they had a tough time raising money if this is true. When I state that the media didn't give much media attention to OTSC I'm not blaming the media but the OTSC for not being better in the PR department.

Also who was going to provide the funding for the yearly upkeep of this stadium/park?

[ghettopalmetto]

The OTSC had the support of City Council, the City Planning Commision, Senator Carl Levin and 4million dollars, one of their Board members was a former employee of Maryann Mahaffey, one was a former member of the City Planning Commission and one was the floor majority leader up until January 1st. In the middle of a tight mayoral race were both candidates stated support for the project, there were just too many ample opportunites to get the deal done that were not pursued. Conservancy groups all over what give anything to be in the position that the OTSC was in. So if it seems that I'm holding them to a higher standard it's because opportunity knocked and they didn't answer.

So, you're blaming the OTSC for the DEGC's demolition spree?

If the DEGC had simply decided to relieve themselves of this property, the OTSC could have started "soft" demolition of the remaining structure while waiting for the remaining funding to arrive from DC.