EDC votes to demo Tiger Stadium

[kraig]

Kraig - I give up. You're just an idiot.

That's right, submit to the truth. Better luck next time, you'll need it. Now get out on Michigan Ave. and make Daddy some money because you've just been pimp slapped.

[daddeeo]

The city leaders are just plain ignorant. Here's an opportunity to really have something no other city has...
a converted historical ball park that serves the community and can be used as a tourist destination.
Instead of building a ball field from a corn field and "They will come", we can have a baseball treasure that is a historical landmark that people all over the country already know about.
I'd say this project is a no-brainer but people with no brains are tearing it down.

[Fnemecek]

That's right, submit to the truth. Better luck next time, you'll need it. Now get out on Michigan Ave. and make Daddy some money because you've just been pimp slapped.

No, but thank you for playing. I've just gotten tired of having to correct your blatant stupidity every few minutes.

In the past 24 hours:

• You've made a half dozen spelling errors in your posts;
• You said that the train station is across the street from Tiger Stadium;
• You said that Ernie Harwell stopped the demolition of Tiger Stadium, when it actually happened before he got involved with the OTSC;
• You point to the demolition of the post-Navin Field additions a sign of the OTSC's failure when said removal was a part of their plan from day 1 and something that they explicitly advocated for;
• You asserted that the OTSC doesn't have any cash when, in fact, they're approx. 80% of the way to their goal and have firm commitments from the federal government for the balance;
• You repeatedly chastised the OTSC for cost overruns, but fail to mention that much of it was the result of having to appease the DEGC's various demands - such as the almost $3 million paid for securing and maintaining the property to date.

And the list just goes on.

Please, Kraig - for your own sake - log-off your computer at least until you finish junior high. The fact of the matter is that you couldn't pimp slap a turtle if I gave you 3 chances and a paddle.

[kraig]

No, but thank you for playing. I've just gotten tired of having to correct your blatant stupidity every few minutes.

In the past 24 hours:

• You've made a half dozen spelling errors in your posts;
• You said that the train station is across the street from Tiger Stadium;
• You said that Ernie Harwell stopped the demolition of Tiger Stadium, when it actually happened before he got involved with the OTSC;
• You point to the demolition of the post-Navin Field additions a sign of the OTSC's failure when said removal was a part of their plan from day 1 and something that they explicitly advocated for;
• You asserted that the OTSC doesn't have any cash when, in fact, they're approx. 80% of the way to their goal and have firm commitments from the federal government for the balance;
• You repeatedly chastised the OTSC for cost overruns, but fail to mention that much of it was the result of having to appease the DEGC's various demands - such as the almost $3 million paid for securing and maintaining the property to date.

And the list just goes on.

Please, Kraig - for your own sake - log-off your computer at least until you finish junior high. The fact of the matter is that you couldn't pimp slap a turtle if I gave you 3 chances and a paddle.

I see you're still anal about spelling.
I said the train station was not directly across the street but close enough for discussion purposes. But I see you're still anal about that too.
When Ernie Harwell went to Council, demolition had already begun. He got City Council to convince the DEGC to cease demolition. If OTSC had been successful in stopping the demolition,as you contend, how do you explain 75% of the stadium being torn down?
You do understand that cash is what you have on hand, not what is earmarked for you?

So, are you saying that the additional 18 million that was added to the project was due to the 3 million paid for securing the property? That must be some of that fancy new math people talk about.

Face facts, the OTSC has the CPC in their back pockets, they have the support of City Council, they had the support of the man that was the mayor, and could have gotten the DEGC to do anything he wanted, for over 6 months and the support of a United States Senator and 4 million that came with that support. That is every other Conservancy Groups wet dream scenario anywhere in this country. They failed to seize a golden opportunity, period.

Now, run me my money.

[Fnemecek]

I see you're still anal about spelling.
I said the train station was not directly across the street but close enough for discussion purposes. But I see you're still anal about that too.

And just when I thought that Dick Cheney had a monopoly on revisionist history, Kraig pops in to say that he never said that the train station was across the street from Tiger Stadium. Evidently, he forgets that these posts don't just disappear from the forum.

Kraig said:

Fact 3. All one has to do is look across the street at the train station and see that I'm telling it the way it is.

If OTSC had been successful in stopping the demolition,as you contend, how do you explain 75% of the stadium being torn down?

Because only 75% of the stadium was torn down - which was exactly what they lobbied for from day 1. Really. Try paying attention some time. It was in all of the newspapers and everything. Ask your teachers. They'll explain to you how a newspaper works.

You do understand that cash is what you have on hand, not what is earmarked for you?

Yes. Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to hand the City of Detroit more than $3 million in cash for security and maintenance of the site? Or the bond that the DEGC demanded? Or the $350,000 that the wanted when the MOU was signed almost 2 years ago?

Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to pay for the architects who did all of their renderings? Architects don't work for earmarks.

Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to pay for the consultants who took care of their tax credit applications?

Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to pay for the office that they've been occupying for the past 2 years? Or their web site? Or any of the other expenses of running their operation?

Do you understand anything?

Really. I wasn't kidding. For your well-being, please log-off your computer until you finish junior high.

[Novine]

Poor Geo. Jackson, he can't get a fair shake in the world. He's king of his land of demolition and doesn't understand why the rest of the world doesn't appreciate his ways.

http://detnews.com/article/20090604/...k-at-Olbermann

[kraig]

And just when I thought that Dick Cheney had a monopoly on revisionist history, Kraig pops in to say that he never said that the train station was across the street from Tiger Stadium. Evidently, he forgets that these posts don't just disappear from the forum.

Kraig said:



Because only 75% of the stadium was torn down - which was exactly what they lobbied for from day 1. Really. Try paying attention some time. It was in all of the newspapers and everything. Ask your teachers. They'll explain to you how a newspaper works.

Yes. Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to hand the City of Detroit more than $3 million in cash for security and maintenance of the site? Or the bond that the DEGC demanded? Or the $350,000 that the wanted when the MOU was signed almost 2 years ago?

Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to pay for the architects who did all of their renderings? Architects don't work for earmarks.

Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to pay for the consultants who took care of their tax credit applications?

Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to pay for the office that they've been occupying for the past 2 years? Or their web site? Or any of the other expenses of running their operation?

Do you understand anything?

Really. I wasn't kidding. For your well-being, please log-off your computer until you finish junior high.

Did they have enough cash on hand to meet their March 1st deadline? NO.

Did they have enough cash on hand to purchase the property so that they would have leverage for this occasion? NO.

You need to understand how business works. You spend your money, if you have it, to advance your deal, not to put yourself in a holding pattern. All they ended up doing was stalling themselves out until they were out of money.

If they had 22 million as a lot of people appear to claim, they wouldn't have missed the March 1st deadline.

They also had the past 3 months to pay the money that was due March 1st and didn't. That doesn't sound like anyone flushed with cash.

After you first brought up the location issue with the train station, I responded in another post[[see post #77). I see that you managed to omit that from your response. It also wasn't even a relevant part of the point that I had made, but since you don't have the capacity to argue that well on points you chose to deflect.

I see that you haven't bothered to respond to my posts that the OTSC blew a golden opportunity while Cockrel was mayor. Because you know it's true. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for your next response, oh excuse me, deflection.

[Det_ard]

What's become brutally obvious is that preservationist-types have NO representation in the City of Detroit. There's no one on council, no one in the mayor's office and no one in any other position of power or influence that can make a difference. Thus you get this kind of decision, ad nauseum.

So I'm left to wonder, is it a case of the preservationists and their allies being such a small group in Detroit that they're totally marginalized, or are they sufficient in number to merit some consideration and influence but they're incompetent at pulling the levers of power?

[kraig]

What's become brutally obvious is that preservationist-types have NO representation in the City of Detroit. There's no one on council, no one in the mayor's office and no one in any other position of power or influence that can make a difference. Thus you get this kind of decision, ad nauseum.

So I'm left to wonder, is it a case of the preservationists and their allies being such a small group in Detroit that they're totally marginalized, or are they sufficient in number to merit some consideration and influence but they're incompetent at pulling the levers of power?

Good observation. It appears to be a combination of everything that you've pointed out. It's too bad that the conservationists and the businesses aren't working together, or at least aren't working together more.

I know I may seem hard on them, but I do appreciate the vision and tenacity that the OTSC brings to the table. Now, and please bear with me on this one, a lot could be accomplished if the OTSC's vision and tenacity were coupled with the resources and business sense of Matty Maroun and the DIBC.

[ghettopalmetto]

Good observation. It appears to be a combination of everything that you've pointed out. It's too bad that the conservationists and the businesses aren't working together, or at least aren't working together more.

In this case, the preservationists ARE the business [[OTSC is incorporated as a non-profit). It's the DEGC that--ONCE AGAIN--refuses to play ball with anyone else, or the reality of the current fiscal environment.

I know I may seem hard on them, but I do appreciate the vision and tenacity that the OTSC brings to the table. Now, and please bear with me on this one, a lot could be accomplished if the OTSC's vision and tenacity were coupled with the resources and business sense of Matty Maroun and the DIBC.

Really? Is that what you want? If Matty Maroun's business sense were used, Tiger Stadium would be left vacant [[and unmaintained) for another 10 years until the City threatens demolition anyway.

Personally, I don't see the attraction of vacant lots. For some reason, the DEGC thinks that development in the middle of a large city works the same as it does in the cornfields of Lapeer County. Hell--why not build more freeways through Detroit to encourage more development on these empty plots of land? It makes about as much sense as spending scarce funds on this demolition. Instead of waiting for OTSC to get the money, or better still--HELPING OTSC obtain financing--the City self-imposes a completely arbitrary deadline to "do something", and for what? The return on investment of a vacant lot is guaranteed to be negative, whereas under OTSC's plan, you have a developed piece of property that contributes to the neighborhood as well as to the tax rolls.

I hope Ty Cobb comes back from the dead and cleats these assholes at DEGC square in the chest.

[kraig]

In this case, the preservationists ARE the business [[OTSC is incorporated as a non-profit). It's the DEGC that--ONCE AGAIN--refuses to play ball with anyone else, or the reality of the current fiscal environment.



Really? Is that what you want? If Matty Maroun's business sense were used, Tiger Stadium would be left vacant [[and unmaintained) for another 10 years until the City threatens demolition anyway.

Personally, I don't see the attraction of vacant lots. For some reason, the DEGC thinks that development in the middle of a large city works the same as it does in the cornfields of Lapeer County. Hell--why not build more freeways through Detroit to encourage more development on these empty plots of land? It makes about as much sense as spending scarce funds on this demolition. Instead of waiting for OTSC to get the money, or better still--HELPING OTSC obtain financing--the City self-imposes a completely arbitrary deadline to "do something", and for what? The return on investment of a vacant lot is guaranteed to be negative, whereas under OTSC's plan, you have a developed piece of property that contributes to the neighborhood as well as to the tax rolls.

I hope Ty Cobb comes back from the dead and cleats these assholes at DEGC square in the chest.

The Matty Maroun part was just an example. I used him because he's someone that most of the posters are familiar with. That's why I said bear with me, I'm aware about how people feel about him. Remember, he, Mike Illitch and some of the other entities such as Farbman that own a lot of properties in Detroit are business minded people that are willing to make decisions that benefit their businesses. If working with a group like the OTSC is going to get people off of his back about a second span, Matty Maroun would probably be willing to make a deal. In the same sense, Illitch would probably be willing to do the same thing if it could benefit him in securing a new Hockey Arena. That's all I'm saying. You're right, the OTSC is a business, a non-profit business. I'm not against non-profits, I was simply referring to profit minded businesses when I said business.

[Det_ard]

Why does the DEGC act as they do? It's not like they're bucking the power structure or anything. The governance of the city doesn't give a shit about preservation because 97% of the citizens of Detroit don't give a shit about it either. They're either too preoccupied with their own haggard lives or they see preservation as a game rich white suburbanites and tourist hipsters play.

[ghettopalmetto]

Why does the DEGC act as they do? It's not like they're bucking the power structure or anything. The governance of the city doesn't give a shit about preservation because 97% of the citizens of Detroit don't give a shit about it either. They're either too preoccupied with their own haggard lives or they see preservation as a game rich white suburbanites and tourist hipsters play.

I couldn't agree more. It's time somebody smack some [[business) sense into these idiots.

[kraig]

Why does the DEGC act as they do? It's not like they're bucking the power structure or anything. The governance of the city doesn't give a shit about preservation because 97% of the citizens of Detroit don't give a shit about it either. They're either too preoccupied with their own haggard lives or they see preservation as a game rich white suburbanites and tourist hipsters play.

Do you really believe that's a fair assessment of how Detroiters feel? When you look at what you and ghettopalmetto are saying, what should you expect from the City if that's how you feel about them? I certainly wouldn't classify the Mexicantown/Corktown and Warrendale areas as rich white suburbanites and tourist hipsters or as people living haggard lives. I think you're doing them a disservice. On this one, you're also doing City Council a disservice, they've sided with the OTSC every time that they've come to the table.

[Det_ard]

Do you really believe that's a fair assessment of how Detroiters feel? When you look at what you and ghettopalmetto are saying, what should you expect from the City if that's how you feel about them? I certainly wouldn't classify the Mexicantown/Corktown and Warrendale areas as rich white suburbanites and tourist hipsters or as people living haggard lives. I think you're doing them a disservice. On this one, you're also doing City Council a disservice, they've sided with the OTSC every time that they've come to the table.

I think it's fair with respect to the vast majority of Detroiters. The ones who don't go to preservation meetings or even know or care which building is which downtown. There are those in the city who care deeply about preservation but, like this forum, it's hardly a true cross section of the city. I don't agree with the decisions of the city regarding preservation but sadly I think they represent the citizens accurately on this.

[ghettopalmetto]

I think it's fair with respect to the vast majority of Detroiters. The ones who don't go to preservation meetings or even know or care which building is which downtown. There are those in the city who care deeply about preservation but, like this forum, it's hardly a true cross section of the city. I don't agree with the decisions of the city regarding preservation but sadly I think they represent the citizens accurately on this.

I'd say that's a bit of a disingenuous comment. It's not the job of city leaders to ensure that majority opinion [[or lack thereof) gets enforced. It's not the job of city leaders to not give a shit about something just because the majority of the populace doesn't give a shit.

The job of the leaders of Detroit is to pursue the best course of action for the betterment of the City and its people. This decision to demolish does neither.

[Det_ard]

I'd say that's a bit of a disingenuous comment. It's not the job of city leaders to ensure that majority opinion [[or lack thereof) gets enforced. It's not the job of city leaders to not give a shit about something just because the majority of the populace doesn't give a shit.

The job of the leaders of Detroit is to pursue the best course of action for the betterment of the City and its people. This decision to demolish does neither.

It's not disingenuous, it's reality-based. There's not to many true leaders amongst the political class. They'll do what they need to do the get re-elected, or to serve their key supporters. Everywhere, not just in Detroit. What's the last courageous stand made by a pol in Detroit? One that was for the betterment of the city but went against popular opinion and their key supporters' wishes?

[erikd]

I think it's fair with respect to the vast majority of Detroiters. The ones who don't go to preservation meetings or even know or care which building is which downtown. There are those in the city who care deeply about preservation but, like this forum, it's hardly a true cross section of the city. I don't agree with the decisions of the city regarding preservation but sadly I think they represent the citizens accurately on this.

This assertion, which claims that city government is just reflecting the anti-preservation wishes of city residents, is simply not true. To be sure. the vast majority of city residents do not care deeply about preservation, just like the vast majority of suburbanites do not care about preservation, just like the vast majority of Americans do not care deeply about preservation. However, this doesn't mean that these people are anti-preservation. It just means that they are much more concerned with other issues.

Dave Bing publicly [[in a mayoral debate) gave his support for the preservation of Tiger Stadium shortly before he was elected. There was no public outcry or voter backlash in response to his support of preservation, because most people simply don't care, one way or the other.

Detroiters are concerned with schools, crime, transportation, public services, and job creation, not anti-preservation crusades.

Most people don't care about preservation, but they would much rather see a restored Book-Cadillac or Fort-Shelby than another weed-filled empty lot like the Tuller or Statler.

[detourdetroit]

oh come on. no doubt communication could have been better, but when dealing with an entity like the city that had little interest in actually and actively making something happen, it's an uphill battle. OTSC was competent enough to get a federal earmark, work to get the site historically designated, get rendering made, scope out project costs and sources, including the identification of millions of historic tax credits that will be lost with the structure demolished. this like countless other for profit [[and non profit) projects is made more difficult from our dismal economy and the lack of access to capital at the moment.

i fail to understand how keeping the structure up is hurting anyone, especially if the OTSC has the money to keep carrying it on a monthly basis already in the bank. since there is NO FUNDED ALTERNATIVE PLAN for the site, let it alone. the DEGC has MUCH MORE productive activities it could be pursuing that are more in line with its mission to DEVELOP the city.

[kraig]

oh come on. no doubt communication could have been better, but when dealing with an entity like the city that had little interest in actually and actively making something happen, it's an uphill battle. OTSC was competent enough to get a federal earmark, work to get the site historically designated, get rendering made, scope out project costs and sources, including the identification of millions of historic tax credits that will be lost with the structure demolished. this like countless other for profit [[and non profit) projects is made more difficult from our dismal economy and the lack of access to capital at the moment.

i fail to understand how keeping the structure up is hurting anyone, especially if the OTSC has the money to keep carrying it on a monthly basis already in the bank. since there is NO FUNDED ALTERNATIVE PLAN for the site, let it alone. the DEGC has MUCH MORE productive activities it could be pursuing that are more in line with its mission to DEVELOP the city.

The OTSC had an active State Rep on the board up until January 1st. Having access to Federal money wasn't an issue. Had they stuck with their origianl plan that cost 15 million dollars they might have been okay, the 4 million from Levin and the historic tax credits would have covered that amount, but, once the plan ballooned to 33 million dollars they were unable to bridge the gap. Inexperience, you don't deviate from the plan until the Stadium is in your hands.

[detourdetroit]

if it's steve tobocman, he is a former state rep. not sure if you're speaking of someone else. also, not sure how much he had to do with the earmark. the community had been talking about it for years and have been making inroads for a long time, so am not sure how relevant that is. if projected differences in budgets are any measure of being inexperienced, then nothing would ever get built. i've heard "final numbers" for the book ranging from $177-$200 million....hmmm...that's a lot of money.

from the onset the city had little to no intention of handing over the property and they [[with countless projects) and other private for profits development projects have a long and storied history of being over budget... so that's kind of a red herring that you're driving at, as has been suggested elsewhere.

the OTSC does not yet have the development dollars in place for the project [[like many many many other projects all over the country right now), but it doesn't mean there aren't experienced people involved...lawyers, architects, succesful business owners, people with non-profit development experience, including real estate development, etc. etc.

i think the real point is NOBODY has had experience with a project like this...in the whole country...it would be one of a kind unique, which is the glaring, ugly travesty. knocking down this structure [[without a higher better use in place) only underscores with a dripping, irony laden black mark that the city and its leadership are woefully inadequate to the task at hand and have no vision to see an alternative, progressive vision for the city.

[kraig]

if it's steve tobocman, he is a former state rep. not sure if you're speaking of someone else. also, not sure how much he had to do with the earmark. the community had been talking about it for years and have been making inroads for a long time, so am not sure how relevant that is. if projected differences in budgets are any measure of being inexperienced, then nothing would ever get built. i've heard "final numbers" for the book ranging from $177-$200 million....hmmm...that's a lot of money.

from the onset the city had little to no intention of handing over the property and they [[with countless projects) and other private for profits development projects have a long and storied history of being over budget... so that's kind of a red herring that you're driving at, as has been suggested elsewhere.

the OTSC does not yet have the development dollars in place for the project [[like many many many other projects all over the country right now), but it doesn't mean there aren't experienced people involved...lawyers, architects, succesful business owners, people with non-profit development experience, including real estate development, etc. etc.

i think the real point is NOBODY has had experience with a project like this...in the whole country...it would be one of a kind unique, which is the glaring, ugly travesty. knocking down this structure [[without a higher better use in place) only underscores with a dripping, irony laden black mark that the city and its leadership are woefully inadequate to the task at hand and have no vision to see an alternative, progressive vision for the city.

Yes, I'm referring to Steve Tobocman, and up until January 1st of this year he was a State Rep. He's also a Board Member and was one while he was a State Rep. In today's environment of politicians hooking up politicians added to the fact that the OTSC isn't returning any of the money they're receiving that could be extremely relevant. If you were to take this exact same situation and replace the names of Tobocman and Levin and replace them with Kilpatrick and Kilpatrick this would be a completely different conversation and we all know it. The difference in the numbers is not the indication of inexperience, it's the not knowing to keep your mouth shut until you have the property in your hand that's the tell-tell sign of their inexperience. The casinos never said anything about not moving to the riverfront until they had their temporary casinos up and running. Do you see the difference?

As far as timelines and red herrings. Have there been any timelines that the OTSC didn't agree to or suggest themselves? They never put themselves in a position were they had any type of leverage. Those other projects you're looking at probably did have leverage and that makes all of the difference in the world. It's not the point of having business experience with a project like this, it's about having business experience period. The Conservancy is made up of some extremely talented people, but trust me on this, THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR EXPERIENCE. There is not a succesful group of people in any field that is going to argue against that.

[choquant]

Thanks to whomever mentioned that George Jackson was mentioned on Olbermann yesterday. I found the clip on the MSNBC website if anyone else is interested: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#31073593

Also, as an aside, I think it's important to remember that all of the people working at the Conservancy were volunteers, and a lot of them have very important careers. I doubt they had enough manpower to respond to each and every email they received, but I am sure every spare moment they had was spent on the cause. Personally, I think that they have done a wonderful job so far, and I hope that the mayor gets on board.

There is absolutely no reason to repeat the past. Detroit is doomed if we continue this destructive, self-hating pattern of suburban development. Even if DEGC is worried about the Conservancy getting the earmarks, they have no plans for the site and [[they admit) no one interested in developing there. When there are people interested in preserving the site, and literally no one interested in knocking it down to develop there, I think the solution should be pretty clear. Too bad so much of our city's leadership is blind.

[detourdetroit]

kraig you're absolutely right if i can glean from your definition of "experience" as meaning: in order to develop property you need site control before anything actually gets done, then i agree. if "experience" means: knowing how to butter your bread in the cod, then i understand, but don't nec. agree that it's the way things should get done. if "experience" means: putting yourself in a position of power and leverage so you can get what you want, then i also understand, but there's really no good reason imho that this was the dynamic that had to play into the disposition of tiger stadium. what's more none of this mitigates against the illogic of the situation and the fact that the EDC's decision is a stupid, shortsighted and counterproductive one.

[rjk]

Comment by GJ:
"The Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy had an ambitious plan to renovate part of the property for recreation and education, but over the course of two years they could not even come close to raising funds from the community to support it. ..."

So how much did the OTSC raise and what was the total amount they needed to move forward with their plan? I'm not talking about tax credits, but money raised through donations. Tough economy, no refund policy, and not much media attention given to the OTSC fund raising efforts, I'm not surprised that they had a tough time raising money if this is true. When I state that the media didn't give much media attention to OTSC I'm not blaming the media but the OTSC for not being better in the PR department.

Also who was going to provide the funding for the yearly upkeep of this stadium/park?