EDC votes to demo Tiger Stadium

[Huggybear]

According to what the DEGC said in the paper, the Conservancy raised 4 million dollars. Assuming that's the money that was promised by Levin, was the money delivered to the Conservancy or simply earmarked to them? If the money was delivered, will it ahve to go back? If not, what will the Conservancy do with it?

The Conservancy had to post a bond to cover the increased costs of demolition if its plan fell through. The ironic [[and incorrect) theme of many posts is that "the City" is paying big for demolition. It's not and never was. The only difference in waiting [[and an ironic one) is that the OTSC will now be paying for the demo.

[kraig]

Some folks like to substitute their own delusions for facts. The realities are below.

The City of Detroit insisted on retaining ownership of the land when the original agreement with the OTSC was signed.

Agreed. Unfortunately, however, that does not change the way that the agreement was written.

Umm.... The train station is across the street from Tiger Stadium???

Since when?

They've asked for, and received, funding from the federal government as well as private individuals and foundations. As for whether or not the project makes a profit, the OTSC is incorporated as a non-profit charity. Non-profits aren't supposed to make a profit. Hence, the name "non-profit".

The historic preservation tax credits are designed to preserve America's historic resources. Whether or not a given project makes a profit is immaterial.

Besides, even in a worst case scenario, the OTSC plan is still the most profitable option on the table. The only other option is the for the City of Detroit to spend a few million that it doesn't have to create a vacant lot that it can't afford to maintain.

Then why isn't the DEGC walking?

The City of Detroit cannot afford to demolish Tiger Stadium. It's running a huge deficit and isn't meeting most of its current obligations.

The City of Detroit cannot afford to maintain the vacant lot that will result once Tiger Stadium is fully demolished. Who is going to cut the grass? Who is going to pick up the trash?

The DEGC has even less money for this site than the OTSC does. If money talks and bullshit walks, why aren't they walking?

The Train Station isn't directly across the street from Tiger Stadium, but, it's close enough for discussion purposes.

An MOU is not exactly a contract. Even the City isn't stupid enough to give up its property in an MOU.

The selling of the metal was paying for the demolition. It wasn't costing the City or DEGC a dime out of pocket.

Non-profits still have the responsibility to keep a project active and open. You can't do that if you don't know how to manage a project.

Spending 33 million and getting nothing for it is the most profitable scenario? Yeah, right.

The DEGC may not have any money or a plan. But they do have possession [[there, happy) of the property which is far more than the Conservancy.

The DEGC is walking, they're walking away from the Conservancy.

There's still hope for the Conservancy. It's an election year and City Council has been sympathetic to their cause.

The DEGC will be responsible for the maintenance of the property, such as it is.

[kraig]

Kraig,
I wish it was as simple as you make it but it is not. The city was given the stadium for $1 and didn't want to relinquish control over it when they voted on this 2 years ago. Instead they voted to allow plans to move forward but had to vote on the plan every step of the way thus giving council ultimate control of the fate of the stadium until they decided to relinquish it. It did not relinquish control of the stadium until just recently when it was believed they were relinquishing control so that conservancy plans could move forward as long as the EDC approved this... Instead the EDC decided to vote against it... I could be wrong on some minor details as I am just going off memory here and am going off my understanding from council hearings I attended.



In this economic state for the OTSC to do as well as they have is amazing. They were given an almost impossible task... The MOU made it almost impossible for them to meet deadlines yet they have done quite well at doing so and thus for the City to be saying that they have been given enough time is preposterous. The EDC knew it would be almost impossible and in my opinion it seems like they almost counted on them not being able to meet deadlines. I applaud the OTSC for doing as well as they have done and feel that the fight isn't over yet and hope that this careless decision can be reversed!

Like I said, it's an election year, so they have a shot. It probably wouldn't hurt if they could bring someone on board that had some real, practicle experience successfully taking on these type of projects.

[Fnemecek]

Bulk of what cash, they don't have any.

Oh, really???

Who was it then who paid the City of Detroit $350,000 as a security deposit to get the MOU signed in the first place?

Who is that has been paying $12,000 per month to secure and maintain the property for a couple of years now?

The OTSC has the cash in hand to complete this project, with the exception of the portions that are currently working their way through the federal bureaucracy.

Ernie Harwell is the one that initially got City Council to convince the DEGC to hold off on demolition.

Wow! You haven't been paying any attention to this project at all, have you?

It was the residents of the Corktown neighborhood - you know, the ones who vote in City Council elections - who convinced the City Council to put a stop to this madness. It was one particular member of the City Council [[JoAnn Watson, if I recall correctly) who convinced Ernie Harwell to get involved with the OTSC. Demolition was already held off long before Mr. Harwell had any involvement with the project.

[Fnemecek]

Non-profits still have the responsibility to keep a project active and open. You can't do that if you don't know how to manage a project.

You're assuming that the OTSC can't do that. Why?

Spending 33 million and getting nothing for it is the most profitable scenario? Yeah, right.

Why do you keep saying that we're "getting nothing for it"?

[kraig]

Oh, really???

Who was it then who paid the City of Detroit $350,000 as a security deposit to get the MOU signed in the first place?

Who is that has been paying $12,000 per month to secure and maintain the property for a couple of years now?

The OTSC has the cash in hand to complete this project, with the exception of the portions that are currently working their way through the federal bureaucracy.

Wow! You haven't been paying any attention to this project at all, have you?

It was the residents of the Corktown neighborhood - you know, the ones who vote in City Council elections - who convinced the City Council to put a stop to this madness. It was one particular member of the City Council [[JoAnn Watson, if I recall correctly) who convinced Ernie Harwell to get involved with the OTSC. Demolition was already held off long before Mr. Harwell had any involvement with the project.

So it wasn't S. Gary Spicer, who happens to be Ernie Harwell's attorney, who got Ernie Harwell involved, it was Joann Watson? And you're accusing me of not paying attention?

So, demolition had not been started when Ernie Harwell went to City Council and asked them to get DEGC to hold off and work with the Conservancy?

So, according to you, demoltion of 75% of Tiger Stadium is considered "holding off"?

You may want to think about hopping off that short yellow bus.

Less than 1% of a 33 million dollar project is nothing.

[kraig]

You're assuming that the OTSC can't do that. Why?

Why do you keep saying that we're "getting nothing for it"?

I'm assuming that the OTSC can't do it for the same reason I would never hire Matt Millen to run a football team. No experience.

Isn't a big part of their plan is to operate a museum? How many museums can you name in Detroit that aren't broke? In the end we'll have nothing for it. That's why I keep bringing up the Mercado. It's an excellent example of what happens when someone depends on government hand outs, and that's what the OTSC is, for funding and not the feasibility of the project itself.

[kraig]

Kraig - I give up. You're just an idiot.

That's right, submit to the truth. Better luck next time, you'll need it. Now get out on Michigan Ave. and make Daddy some money because you've just been pimp slapped.

[Det_ard]

What's become brutally obvious is that preservationist-types have NO representation in the City of Detroit. There's no one on council, no one in the mayor's office and no one in any other position of power or influence that can make a difference. Thus you get this kind of decision, ad nauseum.

So I'm left to wonder, is it a case of the preservationists and their allies being such a small group in Detroit that they're totally marginalized, or are they sufficient in number to merit some consideration and influence but they're incompetent at pulling the levers of power?

[daddeeo]

The city leaders are just plain ignorant. Here's an opportunity to really have something no other city has...
a converted historical ball park that serves the community and can be used as a tourist destination.
Instead of building a ball field from a corn field and "They will come", we can have a baseball treasure that is a historical landmark that people all over the country already know about.
I'd say this project is a no-brainer but people with no brains are tearing it down.

[kraig]

What's become brutally obvious is that preservationist-types have NO representation in the City of Detroit. There's no one on council, no one in the mayor's office and no one in any other position of power or influence that can make a difference. Thus you get this kind of decision, ad nauseum.

So I'm left to wonder, is it a case of the preservationists and their allies being such a small group in Detroit that they're totally marginalized, or are they sufficient in number to merit some consideration and influence but they're incompetent at pulling the levers of power?

Good observation. It appears to be a combination of everything that you've pointed out. It's too bad that the conservationists and the businesses aren't working together, or at least aren't working together more.

I know I may seem hard on them, but I do appreciate the vision and tenacity that the OTSC brings to the table. Now, and please bear with me on this one, a lot could be accomplished if the OTSC's vision and tenacity were coupled with the resources and business sense of Matty Maroun and the DIBC.

[ghettopalmetto]

Good observation. It appears to be a combination of everything that you've pointed out. It's too bad that the conservationists and the businesses aren't working together, or at least aren't working together more.

In this case, the preservationists ARE the business [[OTSC is incorporated as a non-profit). It's the DEGC that--ONCE AGAIN--refuses to play ball with anyone else, or the reality of the current fiscal environment.

I know I may seem hard on them, but I do appreciate the vision and tenacity that the OTSC brings to the table. Now, and please bear with me on this one, a lot could be accomplished if the OTSC's vision and tenacity were coupled with the resources and business sense of Matty Maroun and the DIBC.

Really? Is that what you want? If Matty Maroun's business sense were used, Tiger Stadium would be left vacant [[and unmaintained) for another 10 years until the City threatens demolition anyway.

Personally, I don't see the attraction of vacant lots. For some reason, the DEGC thinks that development in the middle of a large city works the same as it does in the cornfields of Lapeer County. Hell--why not build more freeways through Detroit to encourage more development on these empty plots of land? It makes about as much sense as spending scarce funds on this demolition. Instead of waiting for OTSC to get the money, or better still--HELPING OTSC obtain financing--the City self-imposes a completely arbitrary deadline to "do something", and for what? The return on investment of a vacant lot is guaranteed to be negative, whereas under OTSC's plan, you have a developed piece of property that contributes to the neighborhood as well as to the tax rolls.

I hope Ty Cobb comes back from the dead and cleats these assholes at DEGC square in the chest.

[Det_ard]

Why does the DEGC act as they do? It's not like they're bucking the power structure or anything. The governance of the city doesn't give a shit about preservation because 97% of the citizens of Detroit don't give a shit about it either. They're either too preoccupied with their own haggard lives or they see preservation as a game rich white suburbanites and tourist hipsters play.

[ghettopalmetto]

Why does the DEGC act as they do? It's not like they're bucking the power structure or anything. The governance of the city doesn't give a shit about preservation because 97% of the citizens of Detroit don't give a shit about it either. They're either too preoccupied with their own haggard lives or they see preservation as a game rich white suburbanites and tourist hipsters play.

I couldn't agree more. It's time somebody smack some [[business) sense into these idiots.

[kraig]

In this case, the preservationists ARE the business [[OTSC is incorporated as a non-profit). It's the DEGC that--ONCE AGAIN--refuses to play ball with anyone else, or the reality of the current fiscal environment.



Really? Is that what you want? If Matty Maroun's business sense were used, Tiger Stadium would be left vacant [[and unmaintained) for another 10 years until the City threatens demolition anyway.

Personally, I don't see the attraction of vacant lots. For some reason, the DEGC thinks that development in the middle of a large city works the same as it does in the cornfields of Lapeer County. Hell--why not build more freeways through Detroit to encourage more development on these empty plots of land? It makes about as much sense as spending scarce funds on this demolition. Instead of waiting for OTSC to get the money, or better still--HELPING OTSC obtain financing--the City self-imposes a completely arbitrary deadline to "do something", and for what? The return on investment of a vacant lot is guaranteed to be negative, whereas under OTSC's plan, you have a developed piece of property that contributes to the neighborhood as well as to the tax rolls.

I hope Ty Cobb comes back from the dead and cleats these assholes at DEGC square in the chest.

The Matty Maroun part was just an example. I used him because he's someone that most of the posters are familiar with. That's why I said bear with me, I'm aware about how people feel about him. Remember, he, Mike Illitch and some of the other entities such as Farbman that own a lot of properties in Detroit are business minded people that are willing to make decisions that benefit their businesses. If working with a group like the OTSC is going to get people off of his back about a second span, Matty Maroun would probably be willing to make a deal. In the same sense, Illitch would probably be willing to do the same thing if it could benefit him in securing a new Hockey Arena. That's all I'm saying. You're right, the OTSC is a business, a non-profit business. I'm not against non-profits, I was simply referring to profit minded businesses when I said business.

[kraig]

Why does the DEGC act as they do? It's not like they're bucking the power structure or anything. The governance of the city doesn't give a shit about preservation because 97% of the citizens of Detroit don't give a shit about it either. They're either too preoccupied with their own haggard lives or they see preservation as a game rich white suburbanites and tourist hipsters play.

Do you really believe that's a fair assessment of how Detroiters feel? When you look at what you and ghettopalmetto are saying, what should you expect from the City if that's how you feel about them? I certainly wouldn't classify the Mexicantown/Corktown and Warrendale areas as rich white suburbanites and tourist hipsters or as people living haggard lives. I think you're doing them a disservice. On this one, you're also doing City Council a disservice, they've sided with the OTSC every time that they've come to the table.

[rjk]

The OTSC made a lot of mistakes in my opinion.
Once Harwell left they didn't have anyone who was a recognizable personality.
They needed a Jeff Daniels type person or a former Tigers player[[s) who could draw more attention to their organization.

They should have made the donations refundable if the deal fell apart. After 10 years and many extensions to raise money this deal seemed shaky at best. There was no way I was going to give them my money in this bad economy if there was no chance I could get it back if their plan didn't go forward.

I sent them an email this past September and stated that needed some answers to a few questions before I made a decision on whether I was going to contribute to their organization. They never responded to my email. I sent the same email a few weeks later and again no response. Someone already mentioned this, but they appeared to be disorganized in how they went about things.

I would have loved to see something done with what remains of TS, but I never felt all that confident that the OTSC was competent enough to pull it off.

[East Detroit]

Businesses don't cut expenses to prosperity.

Cities don't demolish buildings to prosperity.

[kraig]

The OTSC made a lot of mistakes in my opinion.
Once Harwell left they didn't have anyone who was a recognizable personality.
They needed a Jeff Daniels type person or a former Tigers player[[s) who could draw more attention to their organization.

They should have made the donations refundable if the deal fell apart. After 10 years and many extensions to raise money this deal seemed shaky at best. There was no way I was going to give them my money in this bad economy if there was no chance I could get it back if their plan didn't go forward.

I sent them an email this past September and stated that needed some answers to a few questions before I made a decision on whether I was going to contribute to their organization. They never responded to my email. I sent the same email a few weeks later and again no response. Someone already mentioned this, but they appeared to be disorganized in how they went about things.

I would have loved to see something done with what remains of TS, but I never felt all that confident that the OTSC was competent enough to pull it off.

Thank you, this is what i've been indicating. No one at OTSC has the business experience to pull this off. They need to hook up with someone that has the ability to sustain this project.

[detourdetroit]

oh come on. no doubt communication could have been better, but when dealing with an entity like the city that had little interest in actually and actively making something happen, it's an uphill battle. OTSC was competent enough to get a federal earmark, work to get the site historically designated, get rendering made, scope out project costs and sources, including the identification of millions of historic tax credits that will be lost with the structure demolished. this like countless other for profit [[and non profit) projects is made more difficult from our dismal economy and the lack of access to capital at the moment.

i fail to understand how keeping the structure up is hurting anyone, especially if the OTSC has the money to keep carrying it on a monthly basis already in the bank. since there is NO FUNDED ALTERNATIVE PLAN for the site, let it alone. the DEGC has MUCH MORE productive activities it could be pursuing that are more in line with its mission to DEVELOP the city.

[jackie5275]

Nobody loved Tiger Stadium any more than I did, ...Tiger Stadium was the whole structure, in its complete form, and that was finished off when they first knocked down a wall.
Too late, now; what's done is done, and the sad little image I now see, every day on my ride to work, makes my heart ache.
Please, somebody, take it away. My love is gone, and I have no wish to hang onto an arm, a foot, and some hair & teeth.

Actually Ravine, no one loved Tiger Stadium more than me. All kidding aside, your post is my exact same sentiment. I couldn't have said it better.

[kraig]

oh come on. no doubt communication could have been better, but when dealing with an entity like the city that had little interest in actually and actively making something happen, it's an uphill battle. OTSC was competent enough to get a federal earmark, work to get the site historically designated, get rendering made, scope out project costs and sources, including the identification of millions of historic tax credits that will be lost with the structure demolished. this like countless other for profit [[and non profit) projects is made more difficult from our dismal economy and the lack of access to capital at the moment.

i fail to understand how keeping the structure up is hurting anyone, especially if the OTSC has the money to keep carrying it on a monthly basis already in the bank. since there is NO FUNDED ALTERNATIVE PLAN for the site, let it alone. the DEGC has MUCH MORE productive activities it could be pursuing that are more in line with its mission to DEVELOP the city.

The OTSC had an active State Rep on the board up until January 1st. Having access to Federal money wasn't an issue. Had they stuck with their origianl plan that cost 15 million dollars they might have been okay, the 4 million from Levin and the historic tax credits would have covered that amount, but, once the plan ballooned to 33 million dollars they were unable to bridge the gap. Inexperience, you don't deviate from the plan until the Stadium is in your hands.

[detourdetroit]

if it's steve tobocman, he is a former state rep. not sure if you're speaking of someone else. also, not sure how much he had to do with the earmark. the community had been talking about it for years and have been making inroads for a long time, so am not sure how relevant that is. if projected differences in budgets are any measure of being inexperienced, then nothing would ever get built. i've heard "final numbers" for the book ranging from $177-$200 million....hmmm...that's a lot of money.

from the onset the city had little to no intention of handing over the property and they [[with countless projects) and other private for profits development projects have a long and storied history of being over budget... so that's kind of a red herring that you're driving at, as has been suggested elsewhere.

the OTSC does not yet have the development dollars in place for the project [[like many many many other projects all over the country right now), but it doesn't mean there aren't experienced people involved...lawyers, architects, succesful business owners, people with non-profit development experience, including real estate development, etc. etc.

i think the real point is NOBODY has had experience with a project like this...in the whole country...it would be one of a kind unique, which is the glaring, ugly travesty. knocking down this structure [[without a higher better use in place) only underscores with a dripping, irony laden black mark that the city and its leadership are woefully inadequate to the task at hand and have no vision to see an alternative, progressive vision for the city.

[choquant]

Thanks to whomever mentioned that George Jackson was mentioned on Olbermann yesterday. I found the clip on the MSNBC website if anyone else is interested: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#31073593

Also, as an aside, I think it's important to remember that all of the people working at the Conservancy were volunteers, and a lot of them have very important careers. I doubt they had enough manpower to respond to each and every email they received, but I am sure every spare moment they had was spent on the cause. Personally, I think that they have done a wonderful job so far, and I hope that the mayor gets on board.

There is absolutely no reason to repeat the past. Detroit is doomed if we continue this destructive, self-hating pattern of suburban development. Even if DEGC is worried about the Conservancy getting the earmarks, they have no plans for the site and [[they admit) no one interested in developing there. When there are people interested in preserving the site, and literally no one interested in knocking it down to develop there, I think the solution should be pretty clear. Too bad so much of our city's leadership is blind.

[kraig]

if it's steve tobocman, he is a former state rep. not sure if you're speaking of someone else. also, not sure how much he had to do with the earmark. the community had been talking about it for years and have been making inroads for a long time, so am not sure how relevant that is. if projected differences in budgets are any measure of being inexperienced, then nothing would ever get built. i've heard "final numbers" for the book ranging from $177-$200 million....hmmm...that's a lot of money.

from the onset the city had little to no intention of handing over the property and they [[with countless projects) and other private for profits development projects have a long and storied history of being over budget... so that's kind of a red herring that you're driving at, as has been suggested elsewhere.

the OTSC does not yet have the development dollars in place for the project [[like many many many other projects all over the country right now), but it doesn't mean there aren't experienced people involved...lawyers, architects, succesful business owners, people with non-profit development experience, including real estate development, etc. etc.

i think the real point is NOBODY has had experience with a project like this...in the whole country...it would be one of a kind unique, which is the glaring, ugly travesty. knocking down this structure [[without a higher better use in place) only underscores with a dripping, irony laden black mark that the city and its leadership are woefully inadequate to the task at hand and have no vision to see an alternative, progressive vision for the city.

Yes, I'm referring to Steve Tobocman, and up until January 1st of this year he was a State Rep. He's also a Board Member and was one while he was a State Rep. In today's environment of politicians hooking up politicians added to the fact that the OTSC isn't returning any of the money they're receiving that could be extremely relevant. If you were to take this exact same situation and replace the names of Tobocman and Levin and replace them with Kilpatrick and Kilpatrick this would be a completely different conversation and we all know it. The difference in the numbers is not the indication of inexperience, it's the not knowing to keep your mouth shut until you have the property in your hand that's the tell-tell sign of their inexperience. The casinos never said anything about not moving to the riverfront until they had their temporary casinos up and running. Do you see the difference?

As far as timelines and red herrings. Have there been any timelines that the OTSC didn't agree to or suggest themselves? They never put themselves in a position were they had any type of leverage. Those other projects you're looking at probably did have leverage and that makes all of the difference in the world. It's not the point of having business experience with a project like this, it's about having business experience period. The Conservancy is made up of some extremely talented people, but trust me on this, THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR EXPERIENCE. There is not a succesful group of people in any field that is going to argue against that.