EDC votes to demo Tiger Stadium

**kraig** · June-02-09, 07:19 PM

According to what the DEGC said in the paper, the Conservancy raised 4 million dollars. Assuming that's the money that was promised by Levin, was the money delivered to the Conservancy or simply earmarked to them? If the money was delivered, will it ahve to go back? If not, what will the Conservancy do with it?

**jt1** · June-02-09, 03:43 PM

Has the conservancy ever released how much they raised. It seems they have been saying 'We are so close' for years. It also seems to me that their campaign to raise funds was half assed at best.

They didn't even get a website up until right before the first deadline.

**erichp77** · June-02-09, 07:51 PM

While they're at it, shove the rest of Detroit into the river. I mean, really.

Okay, the above remark may have been harsh, but I was really hoping that plans would go through for keeping at least part of the stadium. For a while, it sounded like it would happen.

**detroitcorky** · June-02-09, 08:04 PM

Council President Ken Cockrel very honestly told the Corktown community that it now really is time to let this go. The final word of course is up to Mayor BIng.
Corky

**HazenPingree** · June-02-09, 08:16 PM

The Conservancy has about $22m in committed funds, AND have ALREADY put $300,000 in escrow for security, AND have not missed any deadlines.

I hate backroom politics. The conservancy was never informed this was being decided upon.

I believe Mr. George Jackson lacks the vision I once falsely believed he had.

**kraig** · June-02-09, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by andylinn

The Conservancy has about $22m in committed funds, AND have ALREADY put $300,000 in escrow for security, AND have not missed any deadlines.

I hate backroom politics. The conservancy was never informed this was being decided upon.

I believe Mr. George Jackson lacks the vision I once falsely believed he had.

I responded to this on the other thread, so I won't bother to repeat myself. If they really have 22 million they need to tell that to the Mayor, City Council and the Press, immediately.

**urbanoutdoors** · June-02-09, 08:28 PM

From the conservancy facebook.

Subject: The State of the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy

The Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy is shocked and dismayed that a decision was made by the Economic Development Corporation to demolish the Navin Field portion of Tiger Stadium without consulting the Conservancy. The Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy has made considerable progress to move the redevelopment of this property forward by securing millions of dollars in earmarks, grants and tax credits, as well as state approval of historic designation.

Plans are well underway to redevelop this property into a viable and self-sustaining commercial property, a much-needed venue for supporting local youth and amateur sports, and a usable and attractive community green space as exemplified by similar preservation efforts by the Detroit Riverfront Conservancy. The Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy project will be a major contributor to the economic development of the City of Detroit, connecting southeast Michigan to the state and the entire region.

With a new administration in place, we demand that the City not be shortsighted in its vision for the future. We ask that development officials stop demolishing our heritage and instead, develop mixed-use opportunities that promote economic vitality, cultural tourism and healthy green spaces that interlink and sustain neighborhoods. By demolishing, the City loses $22 million in credits and earmarks and adds another vacant lot in the City of Detroit. Apparently, the policy is to save the City by demolishing it.

We encourage citizens to contact the Mayor’s office as well as Detroit City Council to voice their concerns.

The Honorable Dave Bing
Mayor, City of Detroit
Executive Office
Coleman A. Young Municipal Center
2 Woodward Avenue
Detroit, Michigan 48226
313-224-3400

**urbanoutdoors** · June-02-09, 08:37 PM

Kraig,
Apparently The city is saying that tax credits and ear marks are not cash in hand and thus it is not a feasible plan... At least that was Cockrels take on it tonight at the meeting... Absurd view if you ask me...

**kraig** · June-02-09, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by urbanoutdoors

Kraig,
Apparently The city is saying that tax credits and ear marks are not cash in hand and thus it is not a feasible plan... At least that was Cockrels take on it tonight at the meeting... Absurd view if you ask me...

Is the Conservancy in possesion of the money? Allow me to re-introduce you to a very old saying.

Money talks, bullshit walks.

**Fnemecek** · June-02-09, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by kraig

Is the Conservancy in possession of the money? Allow me to re-introduce you to a very old saying.

Money talks, bullshit walks.

Thank God there aren't more people who feel this way. If there were, nothing would ever happen anywhere in this country.

The City of Detroit isn't in possession of the money for its FY 2010 budget yet either. Shall we lay off every police officer and fire fighter in the city?

The outstanding funds are coming from the federal government. The federal government moves at its speed and it's a slow one. Anyone who has ever done any business with any federal bureaucracy can tell you that. Regardless, the funds are committed to the project Conservancy has the cash on hand to secure the property until such time as the remaining federal funds make their way to Detroit.

Unfortunately, because of the arrogance and blatant stupidity of a handful of individuals, that federal cash will now be re-routed elsewhere. Detroit will have nothing but the expense of demolishing the property and another vacant lot to contend with.

**rjlj** · June-02-09, 10:41 PM

Your "Money talks, bullshit walks" statement does not apply in this situation and you need to be educated on the facts.

Someone really needs to teach the city government and the public how these tax credits work and how much potential money there is available for re-development. These public officials travel all across the world to conferences and bring back nothing for the city. It seems that not one of them has learned about the money that is available and in turn goes unused every year.
I predict that after the city of Detroit is completely torn down that only then people will start to learn about creative financing and start saying how they should have saved these places. Detroit: a legend in its own mind, two decades behind the times, and soon to be the largest urban farm/parking lot in the world.

**kraig** · June-02-09, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by rjlj

Your "Money talks, bullshit walks" statement does not apply in this situation and you need to be educated on the facts.

Someone really needs to teach the city government and the public how these tax credits work and how much potential money there is available for re-development. These public officials travel all across the world to conferences and bring back nothing for the city. It seems that not one of them has learned about the money that is available and in turn goes unused every year.
I predict that after the city of Detroit is completely torn down that only then people will start to learn about creative financing and start saying how they should have saved these places. Detroit: a legend in its own mind, two decades behind the times, and soon to be the largest urban farm/parking lot in the world.

It doesn't apply huh, I love how you say I need to be educated on the facts and then don't present any. How are these for facts.

Fact 1. If the Conservancy had enough money, it could have bought the building and land from the DEGC.

Fact 2. If the Conservancy owned the property, the DEGC could not vote to have the property torn down.

Fact 3. All one has to do is look across the street at the train station and see that I'm telling it the way it is.

Fact 4. The Conservancy is not asking for a loan, it is asking several bureaucratic agencies to give them property, land and money for a 33 million dollar project that is designed to not make a profit.

Fact 5. Projects that do not make a profit is not widely considered the best use of tax credits.

Fact 6. I'll say it again, not because I think things should be this way, but because things are this way. MONEY TALKS, BULLSHIT WALKS.

Unfortunately, that is the world we live in. You may not like it, but you need to recognize that.

**kraig** · June-02-09, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by Fnemecek

Thank God there aren't more people who feel this way. If there were, nothing would ever happen anywhere in this country.

The City of Detroit isn't in possession of the money for its FY 2010 budget yet either. Shall we lay off every police officer and fire fighter in the city?

The outstanding funds are coming from the federal government. The federal government moves at its speed and it's a slow one. Anyone who has ever done any business with any federal bureaucracy can tell you that. Regardless, the funds are committed to the project Conservancy has the cash on hand to secure the property until such time as the remaining federal funds make their way to Detroit.

Unfortunately, because of the arrogance and blatant stupidity of a handful of individuals, that federal cash will now be re-routed elsewhere. Detroit will have nothing but the expense of demolishing the property and another vacant lot to contend with.

The City of Detroit is in possesion of the means to collect the money for the Fiscal Year. What is the Conservancy in possesion of? It doesn't own the land. It doesn't have the money it needs to carry out the project. If you look at their website, they don't even have a plan. What they have is an idea, but that's not enough. The project has gone from a 15 million dollar project to a 33 million dollar project with no real explanation as to why. You can't conduct business that way when you have nothing but the promise of sweat equity. Additionally, all of you that have always complained about people getting things because of their celebrity status and name recognition, need to be honest and admit that the only reason the Conservancy made it this far was because Enrie Harwell had attached his celebrity status and name recognition to this project early on. Furthermore, no one involved with the Conservancy has demonstrated the experience to run this type of operation. The last thing we need is another International Welcome Center that closes its doors less than two years after it opens. that was already a waste of 17 million dollars. Do we really want to be the area that wastes 50 million dollars on two projects that yield nothing? Not a good sign for the only area in Detroit that's growing in population.

stinkbug · June-02-09, 09:01 PM

So George Jackson's grand redevelopment plans are to tear down the Lafayette Building and Tiger Stadium.
What fucking good is this loser? Haven't we learned YET that just tearing something down for the hell of it isn't economic or urban planning? Hudson's site? Statler? Madison Lenox? I don't really care about the stadium, but can we least have a reason for doing what we're doing?
Detroit and Michigan: Confronting 21st century economics with the insights of the 1950's.

**Trumpeteer** · June-02-09, 09:52 PM

To all of you who applaud the loss of this remarkable site...you know I won't go as low as you. What a loss for the city and it's history! THANK GOD you had no voice in wanting to tear down the Fox or the Book or the Pick Fort you freakin idiots!!

**Hornwrecker** · June-02-09, 10:29 PM

I agree with the EDC's policy, shunning the idea of preserving history, and instead going with the progressive idea of recreating history. Since the prior occupant of the Navin Field site was a haymarket, the EDC is taking this one step further, in their vision, and turning the place into a hayfield. Thus turning what was thought of as a major problem in the city of unmown empty lots, and turning it into an asset.

Bravo!

**digitalvision** · June-02-09, 10:54 PM

DEGC = Detroit Extension of Gravel Corporation.

Although there's been some progress, obviously the tear-it-down-create-an-empty-lot model isn't working. How do I know? I'm staring at blocks of empty lots out of my goddamn window on what should be prime, urban developed real estate [[funnily enough, it won't give away my location, because that's EVERYWHERE in this city).

**Novine** · June-02-09, 11:06 PM

This will be Geo. Jackson's glory year. With Bing "in control", Jackson will have free reign to demolish to his heart's content. These demolitions will be shown as signs of progress, will cost the city and the public millions in tax dollars and at the end of the day will do nothing for the city. Jackson will promote these demolitions as necessary to promote new development which will never come. When will this man, this one person wrecking crew, be held to account for the millions of federal, state and local tax dollars he's squandered in his demolition sprees with nothing to show for them?

**Fnemecek** · June-02-09, 11:34 PM

The City of Detroit is in possesion of the means to collect the money for the Fiscal Year. What is the Conservancy in possesion of?

First, if you're going to make a big deal out who has possession of what, please learn to spell the word possession. Thank you.

As for the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy, they are in possession of a commitment of cash from the federal government.

Additionally, all of you that have always complained about people getting things because of their celebrity status and name recognition, need to be honest and admit that the only reason the Conservancy made it this far was because Enrie Harwell had attached his celebrity status and name recognition to this project early on.

First, if you're coming to comment on Ernie Harwell, please learn how to spell his name. It's Ernie and not "Enrie". Thank you.

Second, the Conservancy had been in operation for almost a year before Mr. Harwell became involved. It continued to operate for long after he separated himself from the Conservancy and raised the bulk of its cash after that departure. Therefore, your argument that the OTSC only made it this far because of him is utter nonsense.

The last thing we need is another International Welcome Center that closes its doors less than two years after it opens. that was already a waste of 17 million dollars.

Brilliant! Because the Mercardo closed its doors, we should never try to open anything else ever again. We should just keep demolishing things - using money that we can't afford to spend in the first place - even when the funding is available to restore them.

**Fnemecek** · June-03-09, 12:12 AM

Some folks like to substitute their own delusions for facts. The realities are below.

Fact 1. If the Conservancy had enough money, it could have bought the building and land from the DEGC.

The City of Detroit insisted on retaining ownership of the land when the original agreement with the OTSC was signed.

Fact 2. If the Conservancy owned the property, the DEGC could not vote to have the property torn down.

Agreed. Unfortunately, however, that does not change the way that the agreement was written.

Fact 3. All one has to do is look across the street at the train station and see that I'm telling it the way it is.

Umm.... The train station is across the street from Tiger Stadium???

Since when?

Fact 4. The Conservancy is not asking for a loan, it is asking several bureaucratic agencies to give them property, land and money for a 33 million dollar project that is designed to not make a profit.

They've asked for, and received, funding from the federal government as well as private individuals and foundations. As for whether or not the project makes a profit, the OTSC is incorporated as a non-profit charity. Non-profits aren't supposed to make a profit. Hence, the name "non-profit".

Fact 5. Projects that do not make a profit is not widely considered the best use of tax credits.

The historic preservation tax credits are designed to preserve America's historic resources. Whether or not a given project makes a profit is immaterial.

Besides, even in a worst case scenario, the OTSC plan is still the most profitable option on the table. The only other option is the for the City of Detroit to spend a few million that it doesn't have to create a vacant lot that it can't afford to maintain.

Fact 6. I'll say it again, not because I think things should be this way, but because things are this way. MONEY TALKS, BULLSHIT WALKS.

Then why isn't the DEGC walking?

The City of Detroit cannot afford to demolish Tiger Stadium. It's running a huge deficit and isn't meeting most of its current obligations.

The City of Detroit cannot afford to maintain the vacant lot that will result once Tiger Stadium is fully demolished. Who is going to cut the grass? Who is going to pick up the trash?

The DEGC has even less money for this site than the OTSC does. If money talks and bullshit walks, why aren't they walking?

**kraig** · June-03-09, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by Fnemecek

Some folks like to substitute their own delusions for facts. The realities are below.

The City of Detroit insisted on retaining ownership of the land when the original agreement with the OTSC was signed.

Agreed. Unfortunately, however, that does not change the way that the agreement was written.

Umm.... The train station is across the street from Tiger Stadium???

Since when?

They've asked for, and received, funding from the federal government as well as private individuals and foundations. As for whether or not the project makes a profit, the OTSC is incorporated as a non-profit charity. Non-profits aren't supposed to make a profit. Hence, the name "non-profit".

The historic preservation tax credits are designed to preserve America's historic resources. Whether or not a given project makes a profit is immaterial.

Besides, even in a worst case scenario, the OTSC plan is still the most profitable option on the table. The only other option is the for the City of Detroit to spend a few million that it doesn't have to create a vacant lot that it can't afford to maintain.

Then why isn't the DEGC walking?

The City of Detroit cannot afford to demolish Tiger Stadium. It's running a huge deficit and isn't meeting most of its current obligations.

The City of Detroit cannot afford to maintain the vacant lot that will result once Tiger Stadium is fully demolished. Who is going to cut the grass? Who is going to pick up the trash?

The DEGC has even less money for this site than the OTSC does. If money talks and bullshit walks, why aren't they walking?

The Train Station isn't directly across the street from Tiger Stadium, but, it's close enough for discussion purposes.

An MOU is not exactly a contract. Even the City isn't stupid enough to give up its property in an MOU.

The selling of the metal was paying for the demolition. It wasn't costing the City or DEGC a dime out of pocket.

Non-profits still have the responsibility to keep a project active and open. You can't do that if you don't know how to manage a project.

Spending 33 million and getting nothing for it is the most profitable scenario? Yeah, right.

The DEGC may not have any money or a plan. But they do have possession [[there, happy) of the property which is far more than the Conservancy.

The DEGC is walking, they're walking away from the Conservancy.

There's still hope for the Conservancy. It's an election year and City Council has been sympathetic to their cause.

The DEGC will be responsible for the maintenance of the property, such as it is.

**kraig** · June-03-09, 06:45 AM

Originally Posted by Fnemecek

First, if you're going to make a big deal out who has possession of what, please learn to spell the word possession. Thank you.

As for the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy, they are in possession of a commitment of cash from the federal government.

First, if you're coming to comment on Ernie Harwell, please learn how to spell his name. It's Ernie and not "Enrie". Thank you.

Second, the Conservancy had been in operation for almost a year before Mr. Harwell became involved. It continued to operate for long after he separated himself from the Conservancy and raised the bulk of its cash after that departure. Therefore, your argument that the OTSC only made it this far because of him is utter nonsense.

Brilliant! Because the Mercardo closed its doors, we should never try to open anything else ever again. We should just keep demolishing things - using money that we can't afford to spend in the first place - even when the funding is available to restore them.

Bulk of what cash, they don't have any. Ernie Harwell is the one that initially got City Council to convince the DEGC to hold off on demolition. If the demolition would have happened everything else would have been a moot point.

The point with the Mercado is that we can't afford for to give so much money to newly formed entities that don't have the expertise or experience to manage the project. You have a lot of the same players involved with the Conservancy.

As far as spelling is concerned, are you always so anal?

**English** · June-03-09, 12:54 AM

Just wanted to add my sympathies to all the Stadium conservancy folks as well as the Corktowners -- I didn't attend many games at Tiger Stadium, but I did go there a few times for special events.

The problem, as we well know, with this city, this region, and this state is a lack of vision and leadership. When there is no vision, not only do the people perish, but so does Detroit. [[And sometimes I want to throw things at every city leader who makes pretty speeches about "vision" but wouldn't know it if they fell over it.)

What a shame. I'm saddened, and I feel guilty, too. I wish I'd helped those trying to save the stadium more.

**Fnemecek** · June-03-09, 07:53 AM

Non-profits still have the responsibility to keep a project active and open. You can't do that if you don't know how to manage a project.

You're assuming that the OTSC can't do that. Why?

Spending 33 million and getting nothing for it is the most profitable scenario? Yeah, right.

Why do you keep saying that we're "getting nothing for it"?

**kraig** · June-03-09, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by Fnemecek

You're assuming that the OTSC can't do that. Why?

Why do you keep saying that we're "getting nothing for it"?

I'm assuming that the OTSC can't do it for the same reason I would never hire Matt Millen to run a football team. No experience.

Isn't a big part of their plan is to operate a museum? How many museums can you name in Detroit that aren't broke? In the end we'll have nothing for it. That's why I keep bringing up the Mercado. It's an excellent example of what happens when someone depends on government hand outs, and that's what the OTSC is, for funding and not the feasibility of the project itself.