EDC votes to demo Tiger Stadium

**Fnemecek** · June-03-09, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by kraig

I see you're still anal about spelling.
I said the train station was not directly across the street but close enough for discussion purposes. But I see you're still anal about that too.

And just when I thought that Dick Cheney had a monopoly on revisionist history, Kraig pops in to say that he never said that the train station was across the street from Tiger Stadium. Evidently, he forgets that these posts don't just disappear from the forum.

Kraig said:

Fact 3. All one has to do is look across the street at the train station and see that I'm telling it the way it is.

If OTSC had been successful in stopping the demolition,as you contend, how do you explain 75% of the stadium being torn down?

Because only 75% of the stadium was torn down - which was exactly what they lobbied for from day 1. Really. Try paying attention some time. It was in all of the newspapers and everything. Ask your teachers. They'll explain to you how a newspaper works.

You do understand that cash is what you have on hand, not what is earmarked for you?

Yes. Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to hand the City of Detroit more than $3 million in cash for security and maintenance of the site? Or the bond that the DEGC demanded? Or the $350,000 that the wanted when the MOU was signed almost 2 years ago?

Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to pay for the architects who did all of their renderings? Architects don't work for earmarks.

Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to pay for the consultants who took care of their tax credit applications?

Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to pay for the office that they've been occupying for the past 2 years? Or their web site? Or any of the other expenses of running their operation?

Do you understand anything?

Really. I wasn't kidding. For your well-being, please log-off your computer until you finish junior high.

**Novine** · June-04-09, 12:34 AM

Poor Geo. Jackson, he can't get a fair shake in the world. He's king of his land of demolition and doesn't understand why the rest of the world doesn't appreciate his ways.

http://detnews.com/article/20090604/...k-at-Olbermann

**kraig** · June-04-09, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Fnemecek

And just when I thought that Dick Cheney had a monopoly on revisionist history, Kraig pops in to say that he never said that the train station was across the street from Tiger Stadium. Evidently, he forgets that these posts don't just disappear from the forum.

Kraig said:

Because only 75% of the stadium was torn down - which was exactly what they lobbied for from day 1. Really. Try paying attention some time. It was in all of the newspapers and everything. Ask your teachers. They'll explain to you how a newspaper works.

Yes. Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to hand the City of Detroit more than $3 million in cash for security and maintenance of the site? Or the bond that the DEGC demanded? Or the $350,000 that the wanted when the MOU was signed almost 2 years ago?

Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to pay for the architects who did all of their renderings? Architects don't work for earmarks.

Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to pay for the consultants who took care of their tax credit applications?

Do you understand that if the OTSC didn't have cash on hand then they wouldn't have been able to pay for the office that they've been occupying for the past 2 years? Or their web site? Or any of the other expenses of running their operation?

Do you understand anything?

Really. I wasn't kidding. For your well-being, please log-off your computer until you finish junior high.

Did they have enough cash on hand to meet their March 1st deadline? NO.

Did they have enough cash on hand to purchase the property so that they would have leverage for this occasion? NO.

You need to understand how business works. You spend your money, if you have it, to advance your deal, not to put yourself in a holding pattern. All they ended up doing was stalling themselves out until they were out of money.

If they had 22 million as a lot of people appear to claim, they wouldn't have missed the March 1st deadline.

They also had the past 3 months to pay the money that was due March 1st and didn't. That doesn't sound like anyone flushed with cash.

After you first brought up the location issue with the train station, I responded in another post[[see post #77). I see that you managed to omit that from your response. It also wasn't even a relevant part of the point that I had made, but since you don't have the capacity to argue that well on points you chose to deflect.

I see that you haven't bothered to respond to my posts that the OTSC blew a golden opportunity while Cockrel was mayor. Because you know it's true. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for your next response, oh excuse me, deflection.

**ghettopalmetto** · June-04-09, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by kraig

Did they have enough cash on hand to meet their March 1st deadline? NO.

Did they have enough cash on hand to purchase the property so that they would have leverage for this occasion? NO.

You need to understand how business works.

Kraig, if you understand how business works, maybe you can explain why you're holding the OTSC to a higher standard than a private real estate developer.

These types of projects are *never* done with "cash on hand", nor do 100% of monies need to be "in-hand" before work can begin. The City could have turned this property over quite easily, but they refused to do so.

This decision by DEGC is purely political. If you look at their track record, it becomes quite clear that DEGC has more interest in demolition than they do development.

**Fnemecek** · June-04-09, 08:40 AM

Please go easy on Kraig. Real estate development isn't normally taught until the 10th grade. It's a little over his head.

**kraig** · June-04-09, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Fnemecek

Please go easy on Kraig. Real estate development isn't normally taught until the 10th grade. It's a little over his head.

Case in point, deflection.

**detourdetroit** · June-04-09, 09:17 AM

While I do appreciate Kraig's Machiavellian view of the world... it's certainly an elemental aspect of big city politicking that we of the more idealistic bent should keep in mind... it also seems there's much time to demand payments from people...and a fairly narrow point of view but a pretty wide sense of Kraig.

**kraig** · June-04-09, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by detourdetroit

While I do appreciate Kraig's Machiavellian view of the world... it's certainly an elemental aspect of big city politicking that we of the more idealistic bent should keep in mind... it also seems there's much time to demand payments from people...and a fairly narrow point of view but a pretty wide sense of Kraig.

None of this is about me. But everyone, especially anyone connected to the OTSC, should realize that an opportunity to save the rest of the stadium is going to present itself. The OTSC needs to have themselves prepared for this opportunity.

**detourdetroit** · June-04-09, 11:08 AM

...and a most selfless individual who cannot stand the notion of being without the last word...

PS for the record, i wish i had included this at the end of my last post so that this observation would subsequently be made manifest without having to post this additional observation.

**kraig** · June-04-09, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Kraig, if you understand how business works, maybe you can explain why you're holding the OTSC to a higher standard than a private real estate developer.

These types of projects are *never* done with "cash on hand", nor do 100% of monies need to be "in-hand" before work can begin. The City could have turned this property over quite easily, but they refused to do so.

This decision by DEGC is purely political. If you look at their track record, it becomes quite clear that DEGC has more interest in demolition than they do development.

I'm holding them to the standard of a group that is familiar with the city's system and had more support from the city than people want to acknowledge. In case you haven't read all of my other posts, I'll reiterate.

The OTSC had the support of City Council, the City Planning Commision, Senator Carl Levin and 4million dollars, one of their Board members was a former employee of Maryann Mahaffey, one was a former member of the City Planning Commission and one was the floor majority leader up until January 1st. In the middle of a tight mayoral race were both candidates stated support for the project, there were just too many ample opportunites to get the deal done that were not pursued. Conservancy groups all over would give anything to be in the position that the OTSC was in. So if it seems that I'm holding them to a higher standard it's because opportunity knocked and they didn't answer.

You also need to have enough cash on hand to meet your benchmarks, or deadlines in this instance. It's not just about real estate. It's about how you're going to run your business.

The DEGC is going to do whatever the Mayor tells them to do. The OTSC should have had Cockrel tell DEGC to turn over the property.

**ghettopalmetto** · June-04-09, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by kraig

The OTSC had the support of City Council, the City Planning Commision, Senator Carl Levin and 4million dollars, one of their Board members was a former employee of Maryann Mahaffey, one was a former member of the City Planning Commission and one was the floor majority leader up until January 1st. In the middle of a tight mayoral race were both candidates stated support for the project, there were just too many ample opportunites to get the deal done that were not pursued. Conservancy groups all over what give anything to be in the position that the OTSC was in. So if it seems that I'm holding them to a higher standard it's because opportunity knocked and they didn't answer.

So, you're blaming the OTSC for the DEGC's demolition spree?

If the DEGC had simply decided to relieve themselves of this property, the OTSC could have started "soft" demolition of the remaining structure while waiting for the remaining funding to arrive from DC.

**kraig** · June-04-09, 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

So, you're blaming the OTSC for the DEGC's demolition spree?

If the DEGC had simply decided to relieve themselves of this property, the OTSC could have started "soft" demolition of the remaining structure while waiting for the remaining funding to arrive from DC.

No, that's like blaming the Magic for beating the Cavs.

Again, the OTSC had the means to get the Mayor to tell the DEGC what to do. The OTSC ran around for over 6 months while Cockrel was in office as though Kwame was still in office. That, I do blame on the OTSC.

**Novine** · June-04-09, 09:06 AM

"Did they have enough cash on hand to purchase the property so that they would have leverage for this occasion? NO."

I don't know whether this is true or not. But it doesn't matter. DEGC is notorious for spurning offers to develop or acquire property by anyone who's not on their favorites list. No doubt that list is closely tied to who's connected or who's generously donated to the politicians. If you are so in the know, you would already know this and not offer up this phony line of attack.

**kraig** · June-04-09, 09:20 AM

Originally Posted by Novine

"Did they have enough cash on hand to purchase the property so that they would have leverage for this occasion? NO."

I don't know whether this is true or not. But it doesn't matter. DEGC is notorious for spurning offers to develop or acquire property by anyone who's not on their favorites list. No doubt that list is closely tied to who's connected or who's generously donated to the politicians. If you are so in the know, you would already know this and not offer up this phony line of attack.

You don't know whether it's true or not, but you can say it's a phony line of attack. Okay.

I'm not saying that what the DEGC is doing is right. But, the OTSC is familiar with how the DEGC operates and how things work in this city. I notice that no one is actually responding to the point about the OTSC blowing their chances while Cockrel was in office. That's because you know I'm right. Everyone is looking at this from an emotional standpoint, I can understand that.

**ghettopalmetto** · June-04-09, 09:22 AM

Now I'm curious to know whose fault the Lafayette Building demolition will be. Certainly, one can't hold the DEGC accountable for decisions that they make.

**Fnemecek** · June-04-09, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by kraig

I'm holding them to the standard of a group that is familiar with the city's system and had more support from the city than people want to acknowledge. In case you haven't read all of my other posts, I'll reiterate.

The OTSC had the support of City Council, the City Planning Commision, Senator Carl Levin and 4million dollars, one of their Board members was a former employee of Maryann Mahaffey, one was a former member of the City Planning Commission and one was the floor majority leader up until January 1st. In the middle of a tight mayoral race were both candidates stated support for the project, there were just too many ample opportunites to get the deal done that were not pursued. Conservancy groups all over would give anything to be in the position that the OTSC was in.

Which one of those things do you believe was supposed to get the National Park Service to work faster?

Oh, wait! There I go asking you 10th grade level questions again. Sorry. You can wait a couple of years before answering.

By the way, you misspelled the words "commission" and "opportunities" in your post. Come on, kid. I'm sure they have dictionaries in your grade school by now. Please learn how to use them.

**kraig** · June-04-09, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Fnemecek

Which one of those things do you believe was supposed to get the National Park Service to work faster?

Oh, wait! There I go asking you 10th grade level questions again. Sorry. You can wait a couple of years before answering.

By the way, you misspelled the words "commission" and "opportunities" in your post. Come on, kid. I'm sure they have dictionaries in your grade school by now. Please learn how to use them.

I'll ignore your two deflecting comments and respond to your question.

Waiting for the National Park Service had nothing to do with reaching out to Ken Cockrel while he was the mayor.

**ghettopalmetto** · June-04-09, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by kraig

I'll ignore your two deflecting comments and respond to your question.

Waiting for the National Park Service had nothing to do with reaching out to Ken Cockrel while he was the mayor.

WTF? How you can pin DEGC's decision as the fault of OTSC is beyond me. That's like blaming a neglected child for not telling his parents he needs food and shelter.