GOP threatens to cut WSU, MSU budgets even more

[Mikeg]

...... librarians are considered academic staff....... Comparatively speaking, in academics, WSU is lean.

You better get that foot wound taken care of.

I'll grant you that the 25 FTE's in the School of Library and Information Sciences are academic staff, but really - the librarians in the WSU University Libraries business unit are also academic staff? I'll also grant you that there are operational differences between a public library and a university library but can they really require 4.8 times more total employees to serve comparable numbers of customers?

The assertion that "librarians are considered academic staff" sounds like the HRM equivalent of grade inflation to me and just more evidence that benchmarking is needed in the back-office and support operations of our state universities, whose administrators and apologists think they have the unquestionable right to be exempt from both cuts in their state appropriations and criticism of the way they run their business. There is waste everywhere - both in "Corporate America" and in the the halls of academia - and in a competitive marketplace [[and don't kid yourself that academia is exempt from competition), only the least-cost providers will prevail over the long run.

[noise]

Yes, officially, librarians are classified as academic staff. They are part of the AAUP and, as such, are on an ESS-track. There are not 150 librarians in the entire WSULS. There are maybe 35 with that classification, supporting every area of study and providing technical support to the collections. Public libraries have nowhere near the print volumes, electronic resources, course instruction, nor other services requested at the academic level. A public library customer has nowhere near the "needs" of an academic librarian. I believe you're simply unfamiliar with what takes place in an academic library.

[noise]

And I'll never once claim there is no waste in an institution like WSU, but I'd prefer the discussion be less ignorant of the facts and more informed of the situation.

[Mikeg]

..... I'd prefer the discussion be less ignorant of the facts and more informed of the situation.

You're right. How dare I compare a public university to a business or another non-academic public institution. I'm obviously uninformed about what takes place in the academic setting and ignorant of the facts. Your unsupported opinions trump WSU's own budget data and counts of academic/non-academic FTEs. You must be right about how there is a positive correlation between WSU student enrollment levels and the amount of spending on non-academic services. Only an academic insider can criticize the way our universities operate and the taxpayers and elected representatives who provide and appropriate that $182 million should just shut up and send more money because it's their fault the administration had to raise tuition rates. WSU deserves to keep that $12.8 million and all of the added revenue from the 8% tuition increase. It's foolish to suggest otherwise here at DetroitYes. You can continue the informed discussion with the likes of DetroitPole and Don K.

[beachboy]

Late-stage capitalism has turned its avaricious eye towards education because it's the next huge pot of gold to raid. That is all. It's not about school reform. It's not about educating anyone better or more efficiently. Follow the money.

Yes! We have allegedly experienced this sort of thing at Florida universities for more than five years: dissolution of the Board of Regents and replacement with "locally controlled" [[e.g., politically appointed) boreds of trustees; stagnant salaries [[face value) decreasing in real terms; capital funds cored out; reductions in benefits... and the list goes on..

But the looting of our educational institutions is not "late-stage capitalism" at all - the for-profit rape and pillage is just beginning ...

America is still a wealthy society .. there are quite a few "pots of gold" left to raid: the plundering of .edu is just getting under way. See how our municipalities are being ripped off, our national government is worse than bankrupt, our industrial base is being cored out [[there's still a lot left to squeeze the life out of, believe it or not), and our healthcare system will soon be going on the auction block. Many private citizens have been bilked of much of their retirement accounts; similarly, home values are plummeting.

What else? Hmmm .. environmental protection agencies, research and development budgets, Social Security and Medicare cash flow [[the SS "trust fund" was emptied long ago), fire sales of our national parklands [[esp. the ones sitting on top of minerals), the Native Americans' reserved lands, NGOs that advocate for progressive causes, etc., etc. All the while, we are being "educated" that this is "cutting out fat", "necessary to Balance The Budget", "making those public-sector employees Share The Sacrifice", and so forth.

So here's a question for us DY-ers to ponder - which "pots of gold" will be the last to go? Probably the churches [[needed to somnify [[insanify?) the believers), police [[needed to keep the sheople in line), maybe the travesty that passes for a "criminal justice system" [[altho' that can be a typically underfunded part of Govt), and the prison system. In that order?

What does all this have to do with higher education? Simply put ... stanch the flow of ideas, and restrict the funding for developing and implementing new ideas, and it's easier to put the sheople to sleep... Zzzzz ... while our public institutions and private pennies are plundered .... Zzzzz .... while our air and water quality are degraded ... Zzzzz ... while our probablity of a comfortable retirement is "reduced" [[to put it charitably) ... Zzzzzz ... while the American Dream goes up the stack.

This is why we need education to teach the sheople what is really happening [[for those who dare to speak, write, or think honestly) ... and news media that advocates for ordinary people ... and a progressive vision of the future ...

Higher education can remind us that Alaric demanded at the gates of Rome: "dabi pecuniam" [give us your treasure]. What happened afterward is one of the darker parts of Western history.

Oops , my apologies, English, I almost forgot to congratulate you on being a new professor - best wishes and lotsa warm thoughts for great happiness and success in your life and career!!

... time to hit da beach ... ... zzzzzz

[noise]

You're right. How dare I compare a public university to a business or another non-academic public institution. I'm obviously uninformed about what takes place in the academic setting and ignorant of the facts. Your unsupported opinions trump WSU's own budget data and counts of academic/non-academic FTEs. You must be right about how there is a positive correlation between WSU student enrollment levels and the amount of spending on non-academic services. Only an academic insider can criticize the way our universities operate and the taxpayers and elected representatives who provide and appropriate that $182 million should just shut up and send more money because it's their fault the administration had to raise tuition rates. WSU deserves to keep that $12.8 million and all of the added revenue from the 8% tuition increase. It's foolish to suggest otherwise here at DetroitYes. You can continue the informed discussion with the likes of DetroitPole and Don K.

I'm glad we agree.

[English]

Yes! We have allegedly experienced this sort of thing at Florida universities for more than five years: dissolution of the Board of Regents and replacement with "locally controlled" [[e.g., politically appointed) boreds of trustees; stagnant salaries [[face value) decreasing in real terms; capital funds cored out; reductions in benefits... and the list goes on..

But the looting of our educational institutions is not "late-stage capitalism" at all - the for-profit rape and pillage is just beginning ...

America is still a wealthy society .. there are quite a few "pots of gold" left to raid: the plundering of .edu is just getting under way. See how our municipalities are being ripped off, our national government is worse than bankrupt, our industrial base is being cored out [[there's still a lot left to squeeze the life out of, believe it or not), and our healthcare system will soon be going on the auction block. Many private citizens have been bilked of much of their retirement accounts; similarly, home values are plummeting.

What else? Hmmm .. environmental protection agencies, research and development budgets, Social Security and Medicare cash flow [[the SS "trust fund" was emptied long ago), fire sales of our national parklands [[esp. the ones sitting on top of minerals), the Native Americans' reserved lands, NGOs that advocate for progressive causes, etc., etc. All the while, we are being "educated" that this is "cutting out fat", "necessary to Balance The Budget", "making those public-sector employees Share The Sacrifice", and so forth.

So here's a question for us DY-ers to ponder - which "pots of gold" will be the last to go? Probably the churches [[needed to somnify [[insanify?) the believers), police [[needed to keep the sheople in line), maybe the travesty that passes for a "criminal justice system" [[altho' that can be a typically underfunded part of Govt), and the prison system. In that order?

What does all this have to do with higher education? Simply put ... stanch the flow of ideas, and restrict the funding for developing and implementing new ideas, and it's easier to put the sheople to sleep... Zzzzz ... while our public institutions and private pennies are plundered .... Zzzzz .... while our air and water quality are degraded ... Zzzzz ... while our probablity of a comfortable retirement is "reduced" [[to put it charitably) ... Zzzzzz ... while the American Dream goes up the stack.

This is why we need education to teach the sheople what is really happening [[for those who dare to speak, write, or think honestly) ... and news media that advocates for ordinary people ... and a progressive vision of the future ...

Higher education can remind us that Alaric demanded at the gates of Rome: "dabi pecuniam" [give us your treasure]. What happened afterward is one of the darker parts of Western history.

Oops , my apologies, English, I almost forgot to congratulate you on being a new professor - best wishes and lotsa warm thoughts for great happiness and success in your life and career!!

... time to hit da beach ... ... zzzzzz

Thanks!

Great post, by the way. I'm glad that some people are starting to recognize the bigger picture. If this were only about me making $20K and hitchhiking to the annual meeting, this would be another argument altogether.

I am a career changer. I became a professor after the public schools started sinking. If they sink the public universities [[or shake off all the youngsters), I will likely start my own business.

If the entire economy epicfails, I have considered the skills that I have to be of use to the ruling class. They could make a governess out of me, but alas, I have no British accent. I am a darn good cook [[almost went to culinary school after HS), but there are plenty of professionals.

The pre-modern skill that I do well [[and at a professional level) is clean. We had a cleaning lady in my house for a couple of years in grad school, but I could outclean the woman any day of the week and three times on Sundays, so the housemate and I got rid of her. When I set my mind to it, my annoying personality can work wonders on floors and baseboards. So until they invent robots/cyborgs/AI that can outclean the granddaughter of domestics, I'll be just fine.

[Novine]

"I'll also grant you that there are operational differences between a public library and a university library but can they really require 4.8 times more total employees to serve comparable numbers of customers?"

What gives you the idea that these are comparable operations? Using your logic, we should benchmark the cost of a university classroom to a kindergarten classroom because they both have the same number of students.

[drjeff]

You're right. How dare I compare a public university to a business or another non-academic public institution. I'm obviously uninformed about what takes place in the academic setting and ignorant of the facts. Your unsupported opinions trump WSU's own budget data and counts of academic/non-academic FTEs. You must be right about how there is a positive correlation between WSU student enrollment levels and the amount of spending on non-academic services. Only an academic insider can criticize the way our universities operate and the taxpayers and elected representatives who provide and appropriate that $182 million should just shut up and send more money because it's their fault the administration had to raise tuition rates. WSU deserves to keep that $12.8 million and all of the added revenue from the 8% tuition increase. It's foolish to suggest otherwise here at DetroitYes. You can continue the informed discussion with the likes of DetroitPole and Don K.

You have completely missed the original point of this thread. WSU has been forced to cut the budget for several years now. Tuition is among the lowest in the state despite WSU being one of only three research universities. For the current budget year, the state cut the budget another huge amount and yet limited tuition increases to 7.1%. So there is literally no way for the university to cover the lost revenue.

The extra $12 million cut is on top of the cuts described above, and is a punitive action taken by the republicans because they are angry the WSU did all they could, playing by the rules, to stabilize their budget.

[Ray1936]

I keep hearing over and over about all the research projects all these universities are doing.

I never hear any results. Curious. Does anything ever come about from this hoo-ha?

[drjeff]

I keep hearing over and over about all the research projects all these universities are doing.

I never hear any results. Curious. Does anything ever come about from this hoo-ha?

Well, I've personally brought in over $1 million in NIH grant money to WSU and published numerous peer-reviewed papers in my 5 years as faculty here. There are lots of others like me here. So yes!

[Jimaz]

I keep hearing over and over about all the research projects all these universities are doing.

I never hear any results. Curious. Does anything ever come about from this hoo-ha?

You could try typing "Wayne State University" into Google Scholar but something tells me you won't like the results.

[English]

There's quite a bit of cutting-edge research going on at Wayne State. The medical school and engineering college have an international reputation. Our new provost expects all academic units to step up their game. New assistant professors are expected to produce the same caliber of research and procure the same kinds of grant funding that assistant profs at Michigan and Michigan State must.

A key question for tenure is this. The university sends your dossier to the top researchers in your field. They ask, "Would you recommend this person for tenure at your elite research university?" The bar has never been higher.

[ghettopalmetto]

Yes, I obviously realize this. My question is, if they cant afford to bring in the revenue to fund the research then cancel the research and keep the education going. Of course the research CAN bring benifits to society but in hard times you cant keep spending. Operate like any business would and cut the areas not making money.

Good luck finding professors who are willing to work half-time for half-pay.

Education isn't SUPPOSED to operate like a business. If it could, don't you think universities would become the domain of private enterprise instead of the states?

More of the same libertarian bullshit craptrap. You probably never went to university, did you? Because if you did, you would be smarter than to think that it should only be the province of those lucky enough to be born into wealthy, er "hard-working", famililes.

[Ray1936]

You could try typing "Wayne State University" into Google Scholar but something tells me you won't like the results.

Did as you said and one of the first articles to appear was Retaining apparatus and procedure for transseptal catheterization. After just having to be driven 2200 miles across the country with a catheter up my ying yang, that's as far as I went. You're cruel.

[Patrick]

Education isn't SUPPOSED to operate like a business

Well said....now try and tell that to all the suckers attending U of Phoenix.

[guito13]

Good luck finding professors who are willing to work half-time for half-pay.

Education isn't SUPPOSED to operate like a business. If it could, don't you think universities would become the domain of private enterprise instead of the states?

More of the same libertarian bullshit craptrap. You probably never went to university, did you? Because if you did, you would be smarter than to think that it should only be the province of those lucky enough to be born into wealthy, er "hard-working", famililes.

I never said that the professors should work half time. They should work full time for full time pay.

There are several universities that are not state universities in our state.

Actually if you would have read the thread I have my undergraduate B.S. degree already and current attend, GASP!, Wayne State in one of their masters programs. Additionally, I do come from a hard working family, definately not wealthy, and I have been working since the age of 10 [[Paper route), and havent stopped since. Perhaps because I know the value of a dollar and how much work goes into earning it is why i question spending habits of public, taypayer funded institutions.

I dont think blindly throwing money at a problem is a solution that should be the default one until other alternatives are explored and ruled out. I never said the cuts were bad/good, just want to see the case as to why cutting wouldnt work, with actual data, not intangiable, feel-good arguements.

[sam]

1 graduate level class is about 2K per student. The class I am in has 25 people in it. That is 50K in revenue for 1 class [[3 months). Lets assume the professor has 2 classes a semseter thats 100K in revenue for one semester per professor. To me that seems like enough money to get by. I would really like to see where all this money goes.

You are not the only one. The cost of higher education has increased about four times the rise in inflation over the last thirty years. It has actually increased faster than the cost of healthcare. The effect of of all of the tax breaks, and lush funding has produced university administrations with a dean for every cause, capital building programs that are way out of proportion to the task [[ which is education) and marketing departments that rival those of major corporations. The effect of all of this largess has been to turn students into debt factories.

Nothing is going to change until this corruption gets exposed and that will not happen anytime soon. There is nothing transparent about university finances or recruiting practices. My guess is that universities are about to implode along with the poorly educated debt bombs they have been producing.

If you think this is a Democrat/Republican problem you must be numerically challenged.

[noise]

You are not the only one. The cost of higher education has increased about four times the rise in inflation over the last thirty years. It has actually increased faster than the cost of healthcare. The effect of of all of the tax breaks, and lush funding has produced university administrations with a dean for every cause, capital building programs that are way out of proportion to the task [[ which is education) and marketing departments that rival those of major corporations. The effect of all of this largess has been to turn students into debt factories.

Nothing is going to change until this corruption gets exposed and that will not happen anytime soon. There is nothing transparent about university finances or recruiting practices. My guess is that universities are about to implode along with the poorly educated debt bombs they have been producing.

If you think this is a Democrat/Republican problem you must be numerically challenged.

Modern universities look a lot different than they did 30 years ago. Inflation isn't the only factor to look at when it comes to rising costs.

[guito13]

Modern universities look a lot different than they did 30 years ago. Inflation isn't the only factor to look at when it comes to rising costs.

These one line statements are not helping the argument. State facts and provide insightful information opposed to these one liners. I know you are capable of doing so as you usually do a great job of it.

Devil's Advocate:

You are RIGHT they don't! 30 years ago EVERYONE had to come down to the campus, sit in class, and utilize the facilities. They also had to take tests that the teachers had to hand grade.

Today, a lot of classes are offered online. The students can attend from home and not utilize the facilities. In addition their tests are graded by a machine.

Obviously this change which generates the need for less space and less professor time makes the case for additional funding at the university.

[noise]

These one line statements are not helping the argument. State facts and provide insightful information opposed to these one liners. I know you are capable of doing so as you usually do a great job of it.

Devil's Advocate:

You are RIGHT they don't! 30 years ago EVERYONE had to come down to the campus, sit in class, and utilize the facilities. They also had to take tests that the teachers had to hand grade.

Today, a lot of classes are offered online. The students can attend from home and not utilize the facilities. In addition their tests are graded by a machine.

Obviously this change which generates the need for less space and less professor time makes the case for additional funding at the university.

I'm not forcing you to read my posts.

Pointing out the obvious is insulting. I'm not trying to insult you by explaining common sense differences. Walk through the student center, welcome center, libraries, etc and see what's offered.

Or pay more money for a degree from a "university" run like a business without ANY services at U of Phoenix.

[noise]

Although your conclusion being as short-sighted as it is, perhaps common sense isn't so common.

How many on-campus courses were offered at WSU 30 years ago? How much does it cost to maintain the technology to offer online courses? How much more time does it take to explain higher-level concepts to 30 students via Blackboard/e-mail compared to 3 hours in a class? What were research/tenure expectations 30 years ago?

Then there are groups like the student senate requesting things like 24 hour libraries in tough economic times. Why attend WSU if CMU makes student life more convenient or comfortable?

[erikd]

You're right. How dare I compare a public university to a business or another non-academic public institution. I'm obviously uninformed about what takes place in the academic setting and ignorant of the facts. Your unsupported opinions trump WSU's own budget data and counts of academic/non-academic FTEs. You must be right about how there is a positive correlation between WSU student enrollment levels and the amount of spending on non-academic services. Only an academic insider can criticize the way our universities operate and the taxpayers and elected representatives who provide and appropriate that $182 million should just shut up and send more money because it's their fault the administration had to raise tuition rates. WSU deserves to keep that $12.8 million and all of the added revenue from the 8% tuition increase. It's foolish to suggest otherwise here at DetroitYes. You can continue the informed discussion with the likes of DetroitPole and Don K.

Mikeg,

This thread has gone slightly off-topic, but in an attempt to bring it back on point, I would like to ask one simple question:

WSU and MSU calculated their tuition increases in full compliance with the new law. WSU and MSU presented their proposed tuition increases to the state for pre-approval before implementation. The state assured WSU and MSU that their proposed tuition increases were allowed within the confines of the new law.

These facts are not in dispute.

Given the facts of the matter, do you agree that WSU and MSU should suffer punitive damages because the Lansing GOP wants to change the law ex post facto?

[Zacha341]

I hear you English! Yeah the cuts are coming up fast for post secondary education. Shifts in student enrollment is having an impact. There was a recent article on how the community colleges are being impacted:

http://www.freep.com/article/2011093...text|FRONTPAGE

Exactly. I don't see many people who work for a company in the private sector funding their own business travel.

Then again, people think professors make far more than we do. I am startled by the number of people who believe we make six figures. Outside of the elite public and Ivy League universities, very few of us do. WSU does very well compared to institutions of similar rank, but if I'd remained in public school teaching, I would have almost certainly made more money.

It's not about the money for most of us. It is, however, about the money for those who have a chip on their shoulder because of their own bad educational experiences. People have bad experiences with doctors, lawyers, bankers, and even contractors, but they're not trying to dismantle hospitals, courts, Wall Street [[we wish), or the construction industry.

Follow the money.

[everglade carl]

"Operate like any business would and cut the areas not making money."

A business profit model is not the way to see everything. For some people, the saying, "if you are are a hammer, everything looks like a nail" applies. Maybe this is you, or maybe not; I don't know you personally and don't mean to be presumptuous, but there are many of you out there whose light shines through this prism.

Scientific and medical research, the arts, news agencies, building preservation, however, consistently lose money or maybe break even if they're lucky, but sometimes its value is so important to society that its present or future benefits transcend simple dollars and cents. It's too bad that education, something crucial to keeping the U.S. competitive in the world market, is so quickly dismissed with a simple, "well, we gotta make the cuts somewhere".