Grosse Pointe Schools to become school of choice?

**bailey** · July-26-11, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by English

Then stop replying to me. Ignore my posts, since you think they're worthless.

Why on earth should you care about what someone online thinks about you? I believe that your stance is indeed based on race and class. I could be wrong about you. I don't really know you, and neither do you really know me. It's a message board.

I don't think your posts are worthless. I respond because there are others who are lurking who feel the same way that you do. No one changes their mind overnight, but dialogue plants seeds.

pot, meet kettle.

**Detroitnerd** · July-26-11, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

pot, meet kettle.

No. I think English is taking the high road here. You seem, in comparison, to be a petulant, overly emotional person with poor reasoning and an acute case of last-word-itis. What are you, Bailey? Like, 13 years old?

**English** · July-26-11, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

"Here is where we are supposed to reflect on the limits of electronic exchanges, the incivilities they so often breed, especially when the person on the other side of the dialogue is essentially a blank slate, an easy target... for projections and assumptions about class and race.
But reading the exchanges, I found myself thinking about an airline pilot, memorialized in Malcolm Gladwell's book "Outliers," who lets the plane go down rather than insult his more senior co-pilot. There is not much to be said for rudeness or class-baiting; but maybe there is something to be said for a forum where people can speak freely, even bluntly about topics they would normally dance around politely with strangers.
The challenge lies in balancing that free, uncensored honesty with enough civility to break down walls, post by post."

Susan Dominus in the NYT

Words to live by. Thanks, SWMAP.

**Detroitnerd** · July-26-11, 11:21 AM

It's true; sometimes civility is the mask of cowardice.

[[And sometimes bombast is the mask of idiocy!)

bartock · July-26-11, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by English

OK. Then what I said to Bailey also applies to you. I'm very disappointed with you both. Perhaps one day you'll be more reasonable.

I have said it before, I think my points are perfectly reasonable. And incredibly brilliant.

Joking aside, and though you don't care, if I met you I would smile and buy you a pop or something. You seem to dye every issue with race, but I debate others on that stuff and the back and forth is fun and whatever. Some of the educational equivalent of "how much can you bench?" stuff seems unnecessary, but I guess it's cool to know what you were doing in 2003.

**English** · July-26-11, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

No. I think English is taking the high road here. You seem, in comparison, to be a petulant, overly emotional person with poor reasoning and an acute case of last-word-itis. What are you, Bailey? Like, 13 years old?

Well, God knows that I can throw dirt with the best of them. I wasn't very nice to them upthread -- I mean, I grew up a skinny, bespectacled sista on the West Side, and I'm inherently kinda bookish and shy [[if you can believe it) -- but if I had been a shrinking violet, or more gentle and "ladylike," I would have been eaten alive. So I have a very strong personality and I know it. I'm happy to be the pot, the kettle, or whatever else the situation requires.

But I'm not getting anywhere here. I'm really not Monica Conyers, despite what a few here at DYes believe. So why continue to argue? They won't change what I believe, and I am not changing their minds. We've said over and over again where we stand. Might as well go back to work.

**Goose** · July-26-11, 11:50 AM

i think the attitude of supporters comes across as "ha ha, we got you now grosse pointe, we are coming to your schools and there is nothing you can do about it", as they seem to be "sticking it to the man", with really just a passing concern for the actual education......

what is more likely by mandating schools of choice?

1. poorly operating school disctricts will be lifted from mediocrity or less

or

2. school systems that are top in the state will be kicked down a few notches....

honestly?

**HistoryNotHisStory** · July-26-11, 12:33 PM

GP School District is not the only District to be affects.

Grosse Pointe School District ranks No. 32 with respect to Math and Reading scores.

However, nearby other schools in Metro Detroit ranks higher.

Rochester No. 30
Troy No. 21
Lakeshore School District [[19)
Birmingham No. 11
Mt Clemens No. 5
Bloomfield Hills No.2

If I was on the East Side of Metro Detroit, I would send my child to Mt Clemens.

On th West Side, Bloomfield Hills.

**stromberg2** · July-26-11, 01:04 PM

Folks, I'm not getting into this debate...but English is not Monica Conyers and she is, without a doubt, NOT a racist. Geez...

Stromberg2

**bailey** · July-26-11, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by HistoryNotHisStory

GP School District is not the only District to be affects.

Grosse Pointe School District ranks No. 32 with respect to Math and Reading scores.

However, nearby other schools in Metro Detroit ranks higher.

Rochester No. 30
Troy No. 21
Lakeshore School District [[19)
Birmingham No. 11
Mt Clemens No. 5
Bloomfield Hills No.2

If I was on the East Side of Metro Detroit, I would send my child to Mt Clemens.

On th West Side, Bloomfield Hills.

Ok.. just clarify, the Mount Clemens Montesorri academy that ranked #5 is an elementary school, not a district.

However, I do believe you may have just illustrated and interesting point with that comment. Lets look at the internal numbers for a second and see if we can spot a trend shall we?

GP south was 15th overall on the 11th grade MME Math and reading, Brownell ...a feeder school to GP south [[some go to north..but most go to south) was 7th on MEAP math and reading. Pierce, also a feeder to South scored 112th.

GP North scored 93rd on 11th grade MME. Parcells middle school, North's primary feeder, scored 96th on the Meap.

Perhaps looking into why there is such a huge disparity in such a small district would be enlightening regarding the issue of GPs resistance to the idea of mandatory participation in schools of choice?

What's going on at Pierce, Parcells and GP North that puts them so far away in overall achievement than South and Brownell? ...what ...could it ...be. hmmm.

ps Mount Clemens 11th graders were 612th and the district was 493rd. so if test scores are the issue for you..not sure why you'd choose Mt. Clemens.

**Bham1982** · July-26-11, 02:54 PM

Mt. Clemens has terrible schools. I can't believe we're even comparing Mt. Clemens to the Pointes.

Re. this thread, for whatever reason, GP stereotypes are 50 years old, but folks still desperately cling to them.

No, the Pointes aren't lily white WASP. In fact, there's considerable diversity [[well, at least black-white diversity).

No, the Pointes aren't all uber-rich. The wealth center of the region has long since shifted to the other side of the metro.

And no, the Pointes aren't filled with hard-right republicans and racists. Dems do ok in the Pointes, and I doubt too many racists would live walking distance to the largest black neighborhood in the U.S. east of Chicago.

**mwilbert** · July-26-11, 02:59 PM

i think the attitude of supporters comes across as "ha ha, we got you now grosse pointe, we are coming to your schools and there is nothing you can do about it", as they seem to be "sticking it to the man", with really just a passing concern for the actual education......

I have no idea what people in general are thinking, but does this really sound like a plausible attitude to attribute to Rick Snyder? I'm sure he's all about sticking it to the man.

**xrayvision** · July-26-11, 04:03 PM

GP public schools are and have always been a school of choice. I and may others have CHOSEN to live in Grosse Pointe, pay higher taxes and enjoy all the benefits that CHOICE has to offer.

I do not care if you are white, black, green or yellow. If you are a good neighbor, pay our HIGH taxes, welcome home.

**English** · July-26-11, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by bartock

Joking aside, and though you don't care, if I met you I would smile and buy you a pop or something.

I'll hold you to it, especially the day before payday!

And as long as it's Faygo...

You seem to dye every issue with race, but I debate others on that stuff and the back and forth is fun and whatever. Some of the educational equivalent of "how much can you bench?" stuff seems unnecessary, but I guess it's cool to know what you were doing in 2003.

Sure, yes, I end up posting a lot here about race and/or education, only because those are topics I actually know something about. It's not just that I've been a teacher and that I'm a black Detroiter; I do a lot of reading, research, and teaching about these very topics. It's kinda my bread and butter. It's not even about the effing degree or position, as I've said repeatedly; I have been consistently posting about these topics for 8 years here.

I read and "rah-rah" development and preservation posts, and find those more fascinating, but since I'm neither an entrepreneur nor an urban planner, I generally refrain from commenting anything of substance simply because I don't know what the heck I'm talking about. That is why I love folks like Kathleen, Ray1936, and all the photographers around town who post pics.

Anyway. We agree to disagree on this particular news item. I appreciate plenty of your posts, and Bailey's, on other topics. This is just one issue that may or may not happen in the broader context of our incredibly dysfunctional, but maddeningly lovable region. We'll see what happens as the Tough Nerd continues along this strange path [[although my money says he'll drop it if he wants another term).

**HistoryNotHisStory** · July-27-11, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Ok.. just clarify, the Mount Clemens Montesorri academy that ranked #5 is an elementary school, not a district.

However, I do believe you may have just illustrated and interesting point with that comment. Lets look at the internal numbers for a second and see if we can spot a trend shall we?

GP south was 15th overall on the 11th grade MME Math and reading, Brownell ...a feeder school to GP south [[some go to north..but most go to south) was 7th on MEAP math and reading. Pierce, also a feeder to South scored 112th.

GP North scored 93rd on 11th grade MME. Parcells middle school, North's primary feeder, scored 96th on the Meap.

Perhaps looking into why there is such a huge disparity in such a small district would be enlightening regarding the issue of GPs resistance to the idea of mandatory participation in schools of choice?

What's going on at Pierce, Parcells and GP North that puts them so far away in overall achievement than South and Brownell? ...what ...could it ...be. hmmm.

ps Mount Clemens 11th graders were 612th and the district was 493rd. so if test scores are the issue for you..not sure why you'd choose Mt. Clemens.

THE RANKINGS ARE FROM THE RANKING OF EACH SCHOOL DISTRICT AND NOT BASED ON A PARTICULAR SCHOOL SCHOOL. THE DATA PRODUCED CAN BE FOUND AT ...

http://www.schooldigger.com/go/MI/districtrank.aspx

http://www.schooldigger.com/go/MI/districtrank.aspx

**HistoryNotHisStory** · July-27-11, 01:54 PM

[QUOTE=Bham1982;260967]Mt. Clemens has terrible schools. I can't believe we're even comparing Mt. Clemens to the Pointes.
[QUOTE]

According to the rankings Mt Clemens has the 5th Best School District in the State while GP ranks No. 32.

http://www.schooldigger.com/go/MI/districtrank.aspx

**HistoryNotHisStory** · July-27-11, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by xrayvision

GP public schools are and have always been a school of choice. I and may others have CHOSEN to live in Grosse Pointe, pay higher taxes and enjoy all the benefits that CHOICE has to offer.

I do not care if you are white, black, green or yellow. If you are a good neighbor, pay our HIGH taxes, welcome home.

Howevr, every public school operates at the bequest and privilege given to it by the State of Michigan and if the State of Michigan has a new "School of Choice" law approved by the Michigan Legislature and approved by the Govenor Synder, then you can welcome everyone outside neighbor whether they are white, black, red, yellow or blue.

bartock · July-27-11, 02:09 PM

[QUOTE=HistoryNotHisStory;261212][QUOTE=Bham1982;260967]Mt. Clemens has terrible schools. I can't believe we're even comparing Mt. Clemens to the Pointes.

According to the rankings Mt Clemens has the 5th Best School District in the State while GP ranks No. 32.

http://www.schooldigger.com/go/MI/districtrank.aspx

Mt. Clemens Community School District is ranked 493. The ranking system includes all academies. Look to the right of #5, it identifies it as being a single elementary school. Taking out the academies, it looks like GP ranks around 20, same vicinity as Rochester and Troy.

bartock · July-27-11, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by HistoryNotHisStory

THE RANKINGS ARE FROM THE RANKING OF EACH SCHOOL DISTRICT AND NOT BASED ON A PARTICULAR SCHOOL SCHOOL. THE DATA PRODUCED CAN BE FOUND AT ...

http://www.schooldigger.com/go/MI/districtrank.aspx

http://www.schooldigger.com/go/MI/districtrank.aspx

You need to look at that data more closely.

**JBMcB** · July-27-11, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by HistoryNotHisStory

THE RANKINGS ARE FROM THE RANKING OF EACH SCHOOL DISTRICT AND NOT BASED ON A PARTICULAR SCHOOL SCHOOL. THE DATA PRODUCED CAN BE FOUND AT ...

What's the difference between this:
http://www.schooldigger.com/go/MI/di...83/search.aspx

And this:
http://www.schooldigger.com/go/MI/di...90/search.aspx

**Aluminum** · July-27-11, 07:44 PM

A growing concern about test scores is whether or not they are reliable. Reports are surfacing about the alteration of student answers to produce a better result i.e Altanta School District and today's article in Freep.

Continuing on in that thought pattern, could we wonder who will determine district capacity? Will it be mandated by the state as to how many students are in a class and how many class rooms will be available in a district? If they [[government) want to move more students into a successful district that is at capacity, will they mandate building more classrooms? Or, is there other kinds of power for an administrator / school board to lay off teachers and / or close schools to reduce capacity? What other questions would fit within this realm of thinking and is it really addressing something important?

Maybe, to a small number of people, it seems like a lot of decisions are being made that are focusing on results, instead on the process of ongoing learning for all of our learners. Perhaps the unethical reality that persists specifically in Michigan, pertaining to segregation –– "us" vs. "them" –– may actually be counterproductive within the fundamental ideals of what education for all could be. When did we as a people of the United States of America decide that we were unable and ill equipped to educate our own?

Which raises the question: does that include every citizen of our United States?

**ct4438** · July-27-11, 09:55 PM

Forgive me if I'm repeating what another has already pointed out, but for those of you suggesting that students can just bus in from Detroit to schools in Macomb county [[Clintondale, Mount Clemens, etc.) that isn't correct. Every district in Macomb county that participates in schools of choice requires residency in Macomb county. That being said, now take a look at the housing stock and the number of rental properties in areas like Eastpointe, Mount Clemens, Clinton Township and St. Clair Shores. With fairly cheap housing available, Detroit residents could easily find a home in one of those communities [[and still be a short drive from the city) and begin sending their children to any school district in Macomb county that is a Schools of Choice district. Most area districts are scrambling to keep their enrollment numbers up and are eagerly participating in Schools of Choice.

**mwilbert** · July-27-11, 10:35 PM

When did we as a people of the United States of America decide that we were unable and ill equipped to educate our own?

I think it was more of a realization than a decision. What people aren't willing to deal with is that to get Finnish or Korean or Singaporean educational results on a large scale, you may need a society that is more like Finland or Korea or Singapore. And if people did come to that conclusion, they might well decide against trying to make the necessary changes.

**Hypestyles** · August-22-11, 10:18 AM

http://www.freep.com/article/2011082...text|FRONTPAGE

the latest update. some detroit state legislators are opposed, based on the idea that it will damage DPS due to children leaving the system.. grosse pointe legislators are opposed, presumably to head off an influx of non-GP children..

**English** · August-22-11, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Hypestyles

http://www.freep.com/article/2011082...text|FRONTPAGE

the latest update. some detroit state legislators are opposed, based on the idea that it will damage DPS due to children leaving the system.. grosse pointe legislators are opposed, presumably to head off an influx of non-GP children..

A match made in heaven!