BOMBSHELL: M1 Rail won't provide $100 million for DDOT's current Woodward rail plan

[casscorridor]

Y'all, they were never going to be able to build their own line! And if they did, it wouldn't be what we need. Why do you think the federal government wants a full-fledged light rail rather than a street car? Because that is the best way to serve existing transit riders. Although there are MAJOR benefits for economic development, the purpose of the rail is to IMPROVE TRANSIT SERVICE, which requires the line to go at least to the Fairgrounds, and travel at high speeds with not too many stops. This is totally opposite of what the moguls want, which is a streetcar that runs slow, makes lots of stops on a short line is designed almost exclusively people who probably already have cars. In other words, a shuttle, aka People Mover 2.0. If this is what they want, why don't they just buy a few buses to do the same thing. Paint them bright orange so you can tell them apart, and put some orange bus stop signs along Woodward.

But seriously, how many people on this forum actually ride the bus???? If you ride the bus, maybe you would understand the problem with Woodward transit. The buses [[DDOT and SMART) are overcrowded and slow. Riding the bus is an extreme inconvenience, and most people don't if they can. I bet you most of these moguls have never rode a bus in Detroit in the last 10 years. So what gives them the right to dictate transit planning, other than the fact they have money?

This is the whole problem with our transit situation, we are relying on private donors, rather than forcing our elected officials to adequately fund transit projects. Private hands will never build something that is truly in the public interest. I mean, we should have learned this by now.

[cramerro]

GP, I respectfully disagree.

First, your implication was that because thier donation is only 20% of the total project cost for both phases, that they're only throwing in a small portion of the project, and demanding final say. This is misleading and serves only the argument that the COD should be able to walk all over thier wealthy, out-of-town opinions. Their original donation was for a whole project, including thier own uncounted investment of time and money on efforts to plan, raise funds, and secure approvals for the original line [[now Phase 1). Therefore, their donation is for 100% of the first phase of the project - a much different standing than 20% stake.

Second, as I have stated in several other posts, the M-1 Rail needed [[or needs depending on how you want to cut it) permission from MDOT and the COD to use the right-of-way. They would have put shovels in the ground several years ago if they would have recieved said "OK". The COD used this leverage to support lumping the projects together.

Third, the initial 3.2-mile segement is very much different than the DPM. After all, this is still the Phase 1 project we're going to get through the fantabulous DTOGS line - other than the hockey-stick extension to the RPTC. The M-1/Phase 1 is linear, meanin that unlike the 2.9 mile DPM, you can't walk from the farthest apart stations in 10-15 minutes, and it serves many significant districts, instead of circulating in one. The efforts to continue residential growth within the service area of the M-1 Rail/Phase 1 make this useful for more than just a circulator or distributor... people can live, work, visit, and shop in any of the districts along the line with easy transit between all the districts.

Fouth, the ridership [[see also: above) is along a very high ridership corridor for DDOT and SMART, and it is not duplicative of the DPM [[the DTOGS route is somewhat - the M-1 went straight to the foot of Woodward @ Jefferson).

I won't argue that the Phase 2 isn't important in a whole new watershed of riders, but Phase 1 or M-1 - whatever you want to call the stretch from Downtown to New Center - HAS to work on it's own, or FTA won't award funding for Phase 2. I will argue that if you're so upset that M-1 was going to stop at Grand Blvd and leave out the outer reaches of the city, why aren't you clamoring for DDOT to not leave out the rest of the equally dense suburban stretch of Woodward, out to Maple? Why is there no Phase 3 or more? No cooperation? Not even a mention of how it might be extended in the future? If the M-1 Rail was short-sighted for thinking they could stop at West Grand, then DDOT is just as bad in my book.

[cramerro]

This is the whole problem with our transit situation, we are relying on private donors, rather than forcing our elected officials to adequately fund transit projects. Private hands will never build something that is truly in the public interest. I mean, we should have learned this by now.

The Woodward Light Rail would be another pipe dream if not for the private donors to rely on in this case. And in the past, what other donors have we relied on that screwed things up?

I agree we need to force our officials to adequately fund projects, and get a transit milage regionally passed that is more on-par with other metro areas. This is our fault, not the fault of private donors. If anything, our instant reaction to assign blame for our region's problems to businessmen is more of the problem with our transit and economic situation than foundations and businesses that want to donate money to help out [[overly generalized, but true). I ride the bus daily and would be a vocal and active supporter of such a millage effort, but I'm also not going to slam the door on private money to spite someone who wants to make change happen sooner.

[ghettopalmetto]

GP, I respectfully disagree.

First, your implication was that because thier donation is only 20% of the total project cost for both phases, that they're only throwing in a small portion of the project, and demanding final say. This is misleading and serves only the argument that the COD should be able to walk all over thier wealthy, out-of-town opinions. Their original donation was for a whole project, including thier own uncounted investment of time and money on efforts to plan, raise funds, and secure approvals for the original line [[now Phase 1). Therefore, their donation is for 100% of the first phase of the project - a much different standing than 20% stake.

Twenty percent IS a small portion of the project. It's less than half. It's less than one-quarter. It's 20%. And for that, M1 Rail wants to dictate the terms of the project to the City of Detroit and the Federal Transit Administration [[who is kicking in 50% of the funding, or 2-1/2 times what M1 Rail is contributing).

And don't give me any gibberish that M1 Rail is "donating" time and money. Engineers and planners don't work for free.

[cramerro]

Twenty percent IS a small portion of the project. It's less than half. It's less than one-quarter. It's 20%. And for that, M1 Rail wants to dictate the terms of the project to the City of Detroit and the Federal Transit Administration [[who is kicking in 50% of the funding, or 2-1/2 times what M1 Rail is contributing).

And don't give me any gibberish that M1 Rail is "donating" time and money. Engineers and planners don't work for free.

I agree - now that we've merged projects, M-1 shouldn't have carte blanche veto power - but they're allowed to have concerns.

Perhaps donating is the wrong word, but that was exactly my point - they paid engineers and planners to get the project shovel-ready. DTOGS is relying on the $25 DOT grant to do that work for their version of pretty much the same project. What I'm trying to communicate is that there was a lot of work done on behalf of the M-1 team, not just simply a room full of rich guys who wrote a check to 'pitch-in' 20% of a City project.

Still hopeful it will be built, soon, in one form or another. The city and region will benefit greatly.

[ghettopalmetto]

I agree - now that we've merged projects, M-1 shouldn't have carte blanche veto power - but they're allowed to have concerns.

They have every right to have concerns--but these so-called "business leaders" should be smart enough to know when to defer to experts who have more education, training, and experience in matters of which they are ignorant.

Otherwise, why bother hiring engineers and planners?

[jsmyers]

I'm doing a free online live chat at 2 p.m. today [[Thursday, July 21) to answers as best I can questions about the Woodward light rail situation.

You can participate by clicking here.

Anybody else participate?

-Jason

After the chat was done, I saw this:

http://dc.streetsblog.org/2011/07/21...ny-u-s-cities/

It really puts into perspective the questions of coming up with the funding...

[casscorridor]

I agree - now that we've merged projects, M-1 shouldn't have carte blanche veto power - but they're allowed to have concerns.

Perhaps donating is the wrong word, but that was exactly my point - they paid engineers and planners to get the project shovel-ready. DTOGS is relying on the $25 DOT grant to do that work for their version of pretty much the same project. What I'm trying to communicate is that there was a lot of work done on behalf of the M-1 team, not just simply a room full of rich guys who wrote a check to 'pitch-in' 20% of a City project.

Still hopeful it will be built, soon, in one form or another. The city and region will benefit greatly.

That they wanted their own thing and didn't just 'pitch-in' is the problem. I also highly doubt the level of engineering and research done by M1 comes anywhere close to that of DTOGS, which has been an ongoing process since before the formation of M1, and probably would have been under-construction by now had it not been for M1 wanting to sideswipe the project and build their own separate project. The benefit to some of the land owners/businesses who have contributed will be just as great, and likely greater, with the planned alignment and route by DDOT and FTA. It's not like if DDOT fails they will be able to build their own line. If this project fails, there will be no rail on Woodward. So its really either join or die.

[casscorridor]

Anybody else participate?

-Jason

After the chat was done, I saw this:

http://dc.streetsblog.org/2011/07/21...ny-u-s-cities/

It really puts into perspective the questions of coming up with the funding...

Wow. One of the best articles on transit and regional planning I've read.

“It is really probably the worst in the country,” said Orfield. “Detroit builds massive highways into cornfields and doesn’t reinvest in the existing infrastructure or build transit. Detroit is a catastrophe.”


That is really the essence right there.

[mwilbert]

That article is very interesting. Of course, I probably like it better because I agree with it.