BOMBSHELL: M1 Rail won't provide $100 million for DDOT's current Woodward rail plan

[pswingset]

Jeremey, Count me in.

[Detroitnerd]

There is much reason to criticize DDOT's management of Detroit transportation, sure. When was the last time the department had an actual citywide plan for its bus service? Then again, it also faces a constant stream of cuts and is a political football in the latest games of mayor-vs.-council brinksmanship. Yet, it is a public agency, ultimately accountable to the public. I was glad they asked for comments and wanted input and seemed to act upon it.

As for our local business leaders, we've seen this game before. It's all well and good to spin it back against City Hall, but the man on the street knows better. He knows that our "business leaders," now so upset with the city, have been key manipulators of the system when it benefits them. Past examples include Ilitch putting taxpayers on the hook for his new baseball park, quietly looting the fund to protect the old one and then having taxpayers pay for the demolition of the old park [[and, presumably, salting the earth so nothing may grow there). We've seen their proxy DEGC wade through downtown like a Godzilla on a rampage, engaging in illegal demolitions. The truth is that our local business leaders don't question or oppose Detroit's incompetence in government; likely, the better to lead the bull by the ring in its nose, they see an opportunity to game the system to their advantage.

So, on one hand, sure, there are likely plenty of cogent criticisms you could lob at City Hall. And we shouldn't deny them. But anybody who didn't just fall off a turnip cart at Mack and Russell knows that, at the end of the day, it's Chinatown, right? The business leaders will whine and complain, spin things through their proxies and vessels, and get what they want and make us pay for it. As they always do.

Or will it work this time?

[Hypestyles]

more reason for me to be more depressed than ever about the state of affairs for Detroit and vicinity...

..how much sway.. if any at all.. would Snyder have if he were to call a "work it out or else" meeting with 'the Big 4' on an RTA agreement, also the M1 group..

[professorscott]

..how much sway.. if any at all.. would Snyder have if he were to call a "work it out or else" meeting with 'the Big 4' on an RTA agreement, also the M1 group..

Quite a bit, I'd think. I'm not sure this will get to the top of his list of things to do, but if it does, he can be quite influential among both groups.

I find it encouraging that Mark Hackel said the other day he didn't want an RTA solution to be considered without Macomb County's input. That means Macomb County has some interest in what happens here. The "poles" here are Detroit and Oakland County; if you can find a solution that Detroit doesn't hate and Oakland County doesn't hate, you'll probably have something that Wayne and Macomb Counties can live with as well.

By the way I think an RTA with operating authority would make a lot of the M1 Rail folks' objections go away. [[By the phrase "with operating authority" I mean an RTA that would supersede DDOT, SMART and the PeopleMover organizations and operate the transit itself. I don't think an RTA which just sits over the top of the three existing agencies would accomplish anything whatever.)

[BShea]

And keep in mind that the original organizer of the M1 consortium, John Hertel, is the guy that shepherded the regional plan -- which DDOT basically killed because it didn't want to lose any of its funding to the suburbs.

The M1 plan, when it was just its small demonstration line, had state funding approved by the Legislature, and set up a street railway board, etc.

None of that is arranged for the DDOT scheme.

[bailey]

The business leaders will whine and complain, spin things through their proxies and vessels, and get what they want and make us pay for it. As they always do.

Well, easy solution there. Reject the 100 million. DPS did it when Bob Thompson wanted to drop 200 million to set up charter schools. Clearly that was the right choice which saved DPS from ruin.

By the way I think an RTA with operating authority would make a lot of the M1 Rail folks' objections go away. [[By the phrase "with operating authority" I mean an RTA that would supersede DDOT, SMART and the PeopleMover organizations and operate the transit itself. I don't think an RTA which just sits over the top of the three existing agencies would accomplish anything whatever.)

Well of course. But that would be the logical way to do things. however, Detroitists won't cede control of a "jewel", Brooksie won't pony up any cash, Hackel talks a good game-- but won't be able to sell the costs to his provincial constituents who moved to 29 mile to get away from "them".....as Dnerd points out... It's Chinatown.

[j to the jeremy]

http://detnews.com/article/20110711/...assist-Detroit

Rapson downplayed any of the transit apocolypse talk at the HUD press conference today

[cramerro]

The feds and snyder [[or both) can force the RTA issue... and I'm sure they'd have strong support from the M-1 Group for an RTA. There are many options for how the RTA could operate - all of them better than without one, IMHO. Although I can understand the concerns of the COD when it comes to not having total control, an investment of this magnitude, which will likely decide the fate of ANY Federal funding for future parts of the RTCC plan, cannot be left soley in the hands of DDOT and/or the City.

>>
EDIT: Just read this in the Det News aticle about the Feds assistance... some more specifics from Mr. Rapson shed light on the 'rift'... no mention of curbside tracks:

...The hope is to ensure the success of projects, from the light rail up Woodward to Bing's Detroit Works Project aimed at saving city neighborhoods. Kresge Foundation President Rip Rapson was at the press conference and downplayed media reports he and other private funders of the light rail project are ready to bolt because of a divide with the city over the project's future.

He said they are committed to the effort, but acknowledged there are some thorny issues ahead over governance and future funding.

"We are wrestling with some legitimate issues," Rapson said.

From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20110711/...#ixzz1Roz3epgK

END EDIT
<<

Also need to point out that these 'business guys' are not 'throwing in $100M to get threefold return'. This whole thing started when they were going to build and operate the damn thing by themselves, without ANY public money. Totally the opposite of Illitch and Foxtown.

Like I said before, if the COD wants to ride the coattails of M1's real progress they made to implement the crown jewel of thier 5 year DTOGS project as the first part of a regional transit system, more power to them. But to say that the private part of this public-private partnership is the wrech in the gears becuase they won't left DDOT make it a public project with no-strings-attached private funding is BS.

Here's to hoping that the M-1 players can help right the ship [[with help from others hopefully) and get this project [[finally) underway.

[Detroitnerd]

Well, easy solution there. Reject the 100 million. DPS did it when Bob Thompson wanted to drop 200 million to set up charter schools. Clearly that was the right choice which saved DPS from ruin.

Easy, Bailey. Get any more sarcastic and your slip will be showing.

Anyway, if it came down to it, I would rather reject $100 million and have no rail line than to have a rail line that is neither rapid, nor transit, built to aid the already-wealthy and paid for on the backs of working people. Why is it never called "socialism" when the taxpayers give to the rich, huh?

Well of course. But that would be the logical way to do things. however, Detroitists won't cede control of a "jewel", Brooksie won't pony up any cash, Hackel talks a good game-- but won't be able to sell the costs to his provincial constituents who moved to 29 mile to get away from "them".....as Dnerd points out... It's Chinatown.

There is no jewel to cede here. What does Detroit have to cede? Rail rights to Woodward Avenue? Your rhetoric is strangely inflammatory and lame at the same time.

[Hypestyles]

hopefully the free press and DetNews will follow up on this..

[j to the jeremy]

Anyway, if it came down to it, I would rather reject $100 million and have no rail line than to have a rail line that is neither rapid, nor transit, built to aid the already-wealthy and paid for on the backs of working people. Why is it never called "socialism" when the taxpayers give to the rich, huh?

Because it's called Capitalism

[bailey]

[QUOTE]

Easy, Bailey. Get any more sarcastic and your slip will be showing.

Actually I'm being serious. If it's such a burden to work with them and/or to do it the way they want it is stupid [[which I think we've all agreed the side running, stop on ever corner system being proposed is) then tell them to eff-off. Thank you very much, but y'all want to much control over where your private money goes...here's your poster sized check back.

Anyway, if it came down to it, I would rather reject $100 million and have no rail line than to have a rail line that is neither rapid, nor transit, built to aid the already-wealthy and paid for on the backs of working people. Why is it never called "socialism" when the taxpayers give to the rich, huh?

I agree. its a parking shuttle and not mass transit. Which, again, is why the M1 folks should be told to fuck off. However, as the powers that be WANT to see a choo choo running up and down an already heavily serviced corridor-- they apparently want to let the M1 folks chip in, but then act all aghast when the M1 folks are demanding veto power. If you want your mickey mouse tram built, the only choice is to do it their way. otherwise let's just build a real transit system the old fashion way... through the government.

There is no jewel to cede here. What does Detroit have to cede? Rail rights to Woodward Avenue? Your rhetoric is strangely inflammatory and lame at the same time.

DDot itself is the jewel. There are going to be a whole lot of DDot "administrators" pissed off that they arent getting new hybrid trucks and life long employment at the new RTA and loads of pols pissed off at the prospect of not having do nothing patronage jobs to offer.

[Detroitnerd]

[QUOTE=bailey;257296]

Actually I'm being serious. If it's such a burden to work with them and/or to do it the way they want it is stupid [[which I think we've all agreed the side running, stop on ever corner system being proposed is) then tell them to eff-off. Thank you very much, but y'all want to much control over where your private money goes...here's your poster sized check back.

I agree. its a parking shuttle and not mass transit. Which, again, is why the M1 folks should be told to fuck off. However, as the powers that be WANT to see a choo choo running up and down an already heavily serviced corridor-- they apparently want to let the M1 folks chip in, but then act all aghast when the M1 folks are demanding veto power. If you want your mickey mouse tram built, the only choice is to do it their way. otherwise let's just build a real transit system the old fashion way... through the government.

DDot itself is the jewel. There are going to be a whole lot of DDot "administrators" pissed off that they arent getting new hybrid trucks and life long employment at the new RTA and loads of pols pissed off at the prospect of not having do nothing patronage jobs to offer.

Well, maybe we're not all that far apart after all. However, the amount of ridership on Woodward is already heavy enough to warrant an upgrade to light rail. And light rail also brings with it riders of choice, which will only boost ridership. And it helps everybody, taking cars off the road, lessening pollution, attracting residents who value quality transit, fostering development. This could be done well, or we could panic, accept some dodgy compromise, and have People Mover II.

As I said earlier, say what you will about DDOT. I'll likely believe it. But at least they accept public input and actually seem to care about it. Some of the businesspeople "donating" money [[it will likely come back to them in a multiple) seem petulant and arrogant by comparison, and allow zero transparency.

[Russix]

Shorten the route from GCP to McNichols, implement fewer stations as defined in mainline option A. You lower the local match to point where it seems appropriate to add a balcony on to rail cars so riders may moon M1 backers as the train passes by them.

[mwilbert]

This article, http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...ndation_r.html seems way more upbeat. Either the M1 people don't have their story straight yet or the press is doing a bad job of reporting the situation. Or both.

Relevant excerpt:

Regardless of his portrayal in the Wall Street Journal, Rapson said he and the private investors remain committed to the Woodward Light Rail plan.

“On the substance we are completely there,” said Rapson. “This is no longer about whether it should run on the side or run up the middle, how many stops there should be, we are all completely on board. Some of our investors have to get more comfortable with that, but they will. I think the question is how do you govern it? How do ensure there’s a regional system? How do you ensure there is a regional authority? How do you assure it gets paid for?”

This isn't exactly the same as the complaints about the alignment we heard about yesterday. On the other hand, the questions he seems to be concerned about are beyond the city's ability to address. If M-1's participation can be leveraged into an RTA, great, but if this is a requirement and not a negotiating position, I have to wonder what the chances really are.

[Detroitnerd]

Well, maybe this is the best they can do. They were going to work with DDOT and figured, maybe they'd get their way. They didn't get their way. So now they demand an RTA that may or may not let them have their way.

In other words, if this isn't about how we lost, why the sudden appeal to a potential "higher court"?

[professorscott]

The point of wanting an RTA has nothing to do with the investors not "getting their way", as you put it. The concern has more to do with this question: how can a transit agency that is still making cuts, and has recently made some pretty deep cuts and threatened even more, and which operates a so-so service at best, be trusted to operate something like this?

[Wesley Mouch]

...If M-1's participation can be leveraged into an RTA, great, but if this is a requirement and not a negotiating position, I have to wonder what the chances really are.

The city's bargaining position isn't very strong. They're broke. And they have a nearly disfunctional system.

So its perfectly reasonable for M1 / Kresge / etc. to press for a regional authority. Its nothing but utter, political nonsense to care who 'owns' the system. All that matters is:

• It gets built
• Is gets run well
• It serves the existing population
• It can be integrated into other transit services
• It attracts new residents to the region
• It enables dense development, as transit does

[stinkytofu]

The city's bargaining position isn't very strong. They're broke. And they have a nearly disfunctional system.

So its perfectly reasonable for M1 / Kresge / etc. to press for a regional authority. Its nothing but utter, political nonsense to care who 'owns' the system. All that matters is:

• It gets built
• Is gets run well
• It serves the existing population
• It can be integrated into other transit services
• It attracts new residents to the region
• It enables dense development, as transit does

...and, of course, it's financially feasible over the long-term.

I do like the tone of that MLive article. It's good they are hashing these issues out now and having a productive conversation. I also get a little sketched out about "sources" saying it's blown to shit when an actual named source in a different publication states it's still very much in the works.

[Detroitnerd]

The point of wanting an RTA has nothing to do with the investors not "getting their way", as you put it. The concern has more to do with this question: how can a transit agency that is still making cuts, and has recently made some pretty deep cuts and threatened even more, and which operates a so-so service at best, be trusted to operate something like this?

Yes, on its surface, it is a completely reasonable complaint. And yet, wouldn't it provide another opportunity to haggle over what an eventual system would look like? I find that possibility intriguing. And I'm certain they must as well ...

[detmsp]

The point of wanting an RTA has nothing to do with the investors not "getting their way", as you put it. The concern has more to do with this question: how can a transit agency that is still making cuts, and has recently made some pretty deep cuts and threatened even more, and which operates a so-so service at best, be trusted to operate something like this?

I've been concerned about this as well. I desperately want to see light rail in Detroit, but how can an agency that is slashing costs and services afford to add to it's infrastructure? When Bing was threatening to cut the People Mover and Hart Plaza festivals, I thought and now we're going to build a light rail line?

And Wesley, I think the concern isn't really who owns it... the concern is that whoever owns it has the ability to fund running it. I think it's pretty clear that DDOT doesn't.

[Detroitnerd]

It would be a plus to have a regional transit authority. It would be a plus to not have three separate systems from here to Ann Arbor. Hell, I think it would be a plus to join all three counties together into a greater city. I'm all for regional cooperation. I'd like to change the state constitution, which is a positively regressive document when it comes to annexation and taxation for funding transit.

But don't you find it curious that the objections are being raised right now? So soon after the alignment and stations seem to be firming up?

Take the high road. Some of you must. But that man on the street perspective should also nag at you a little: You always have to second-guess folks like Ilitch et al. They have their own agendas, and aren't reluctant to push them by proxy, always, of course, with understandable rationales for public consumption. [[Eyesores! Skyboxes!)

[Fnemecek]

But don't you find it curious that the objections are being raised right now? So soon after the alignment and stations seem to be firming up?

Take the high road. Some of you must. But that man on the street perspective should also nag at you a little: You always have to second-guess folks like Ilitch et al. They have their own agendas, and aren't reluctant to push them by proxy, always, of course, with understandable rationales for public consumption. [[Eyesores! Skyboxes!)

Well, it also comes right after the budget debate in which the City Council only cut $25 million from Mayor Bing's budget [[after threatening to cut even more) and after it became clear that the Mayor really doesn't know how he is going to administer such a cut.

It makes me wonder how the City is going to maintain the status quo and still come up with the $2 million per year in operating funds that the current plans call for.

And for the record, I will knee cap the first person who suggests that my concerns make me a proxy for the Ilitch organization.

[One Shot]

Any word besides "Bombshell" please! Errrrr Nancy Grace

[Lowell]

It would be a plus to have a regional transit authority. It would be a plus to not have three separate systems from here to Ann Arbor. Hell, I think it would be a plus to join all three counties together into a greater city. I'm all for regional cooperation. I'd like to change the state constitution, which is a positively regressive document when it comes to annexation and taxation for funding transit.

But don't you find it curious that the objections are being raised right now? So soon after the alignment and stations seem to be firming up?

Good points^ and informative discussion from all.

Regarding the 'find it curious', I find it kind of normal. Business interests indicate an investment move, offer up a plan, get everybody especially governing bodies excited and involved, then start to nibble away at their initial commitment using the thinly veiled threat of walking away.

When someone says $100 mil investment in these situations I always think, "Oh you mean $75 mil with a larger share of ownership after you pull a pouty fit, threaten to kill the deal and beat everybody down." Business is just done that way and I am so used to it I no longer take offense.