Woodward/M1 Rail -- DDOT reach accord on light rail

[dtowncitylover]

This website is absurd. Just look at those shoddy pictures and that half-assed video. It is a joke compared to DTOGS. This is what happens when we let corporations control everything. If this is what is built, which functionally is only a minor improvement over the bus, it will stunt future growth of mass transit.

The video caption does say

"
This video demonstrates how the light rail line may function on Woodward Avenue. The actual car and station designs, as well as station locations, have not yet been determined.
"

So... that means it is totally open and there might be a possibility that more will be taken from the DTOGS plan. The video shows different types of cars--mainly smaller--, the stations look pain in compared to DTOGS stations, and the curbside aspect is a NIGHTMARE!

I can not stress enough why we need a massive change in the way federal transportation funding is spent. We can't rely on the mega-wealthy to fund our projects. We get shitty results. This plan is totally lame, for lack of a better word.

ALSO - people always make fun of the People Mover, but it is great. And I wish that was what got built instead of this crap. People Mover runs every 3 minutes and almost never breaks down, much less get stuck in traffic/run into cars. FAR superior to this. Why? Because it has a grade-separated, dedicated right-of-way! It is REAL mass transit. I don't know how this can be considered mass transit.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do something to make sure the DTOGS plan is fully implemented [[with the acception of less stations between midtown and new center) instead of this, which will be hard to work into a real mass transit system. Light-rail will function similarly to rapid transit [[like the people mover), and is just a lesser form of rapid transit. Streetcar is a bus we tracks. end of discussion.

Cass, I understand your frustration, but it's the corporations that have the money right now. The City of Detroit has almost no money to build a LRT line from downtown to 8 Mile. I applaud these guys for using their own money that will create jobs and growth for the benefit of the resident of Detoit. I don't think you will find these corps running the entire thing that's not their job. Eventually this will be run by DDOT using union work, which I'm all for. You might find their ad on the inside of the train, but that's expected.

As for the People Mover, it is unfortunate that the full plan was never realized but that is old technology and building a monorail or elevated system would cost in the billions. Light rail, like I have state before, is the new thing. Light rail is mass transit. If we build lines along Gratiot, Jefferson, and Grand River, we can really become a transit-oriented city. It is not, however, heavy rail transit, like a subway.

Remember, M-1 Rail and DTOGS are working together. While M-1 may say that have yet to determine what the stations are going to look like, DTOGS has. I think for an urban place like Lower Woodward I can dig curbside. But perhaps north of the Boulevard it can move into the middle of the street.

And, ljbad, San Fran also has a extensive light rail system which co-mingles with traffice for some, if not most, of the line.

I would really like to see AnsaldoBreda be awarded the contract for light rail vehicles, they make awesome products.

[dove-7]

It may take a bit longer, but you don't have to worry about parking. And, it will make living along the corridor much more appealing to people who would rather not drive downtown to work, assuming they have jobs downtown. The traffic annoyances haven't been detrimental to other regions who have the same setup.

In the Chicago suburbs, Metra trains roll through the middle of town, forcing all traffic to pause for a minute, and it's no big deal. I suspect the M1 trains will run like every 20 minutes or so. And, of course, there's generally way less traffic in the affected section of Detroit than there is in the multitude of affected sections of suburban Chicago. If anything, it will open up the parking options for people attending events downtown, who will be able to park cheaply and ride [[which makes it kind of a curious thing that Ilitch would be a supporter, considering the threat to his downtown parking empire).

Same with the Munni Trains here in San Francisco.

[esp1986]

What does the Ford family has to say being that Ford Field is in the area to. Let's hope Dave Bing and the common council doesnt try to stall this project to look out for Ford, GM, the oil companies and any entities that corresponds with the AUTOMOBILE. This will be a perfect time for it. It will not be a problem getting riders on the train being that many people can't afford to have a car anymore. Cheaper to catch the rail. More stores would probably open in Merchants Row on Woodward and the strip of shops along Woodward and Grand Blvd will probably upgrade from cheap wigs and ghetto apparel shops to more upscale shops

GM and Ford currently have bigger fish to fry and I think everyone realizes that they cannot allow another proposal like this to be shot down. There is nothing for GM or Ford to gain from shooting this down... people already live in the suburbs, and if this is built as planned, that won't change. While Ford does have a vested interest in downtown, Bill Jr. is too tied up in FoMoCo, I've been told, and Bill Sr. doesn't give a rats ass about anything other than mediocre football. If times were better, I wouldn't be surprised to see GM putting their hand in the pot, given all they have invested in downtown in recent years, and other than their political "money saving" ploy to move to Warren, they are pretty committed to downtown.

[esp1986]

Cass, I understand your frustration, but it's the corporations that have the money right now. The City of Detroit has almost no money to build a LRT line from downtown to 8 Mile. I applaud these guys for using their own money that will create jobs and growth for the benefit of the resident of Detoit. I don't think you will find these corps running the entire thing that's not their job. Eventually this will be run by DDOT using union work, which I'm all for. You might find their ad on the inside of the train, but that's expected.

As for the People Mover, it is unfortunate that the full plan was never realized but that is old technology and building a monorail or elevated system would cost in the billions. Light rail, like I have state before, is the new thing. Light rail is mass transit. If we build lines along Gratiot, Jefferson, and Grand River, we can really become a transit-oriented city. It is not, however, heavy rail transit, like a subway.

Remember, M-1 Rail and DTOGS are working together. While M-1 may say that have yet to determine what the stations are going to look like, DTOGS has. I think for an urban place like Lower Woodward I can dig curbside. But perhaps north of the Boulevard it can move into the middle of the street.

And, ljbad, San Fran also has a extensive light rail system which co-mingles with traffice for some, if not most, of the line.

I would really like to see AnsaldoBreda be awarded the contract for light rail vehicles, they make awesome products.

The good news is that while it is largely the corporations financing this, it is the entire region cooperating with the state and federal government. Now, I am in no way saying that means it will be done right, but that at least gives them better access to other systems, like Dallas', whose are known to work well. From what I have heard, there was a lot of skepticism about the plan in Dallas, co-mingling with traffic an all, but that actually cut down on a lot of the traffic on those main arteries.

[Russix]

I do not believe the city is financially obligated to keep funding the M1 Streetcar if it’s deemed that it sucks and that they would be better served by building out its original DTOGS plan. I will never understand the logic of creating a transit redundancy over a scalable system. If I were running things at M1 Inc I would build the nice stations they’ve envisioned and run some articulated buses, no one is going to notice a difference and the cost would be substantially less. Lower Woodward can use all the transit it can get, but not at the cost of regional connectivity. If M1 doesn’t want to use the ROW, then they should move completely into the parking lane and preserve the possibility of DTOGS being able to use the ROW later.

Please take into consideration that when you mention DART Rail in Dallas, its average station distances is 1.5 miles compared to M1’s quarter mile[[if that) hops.

[BShea]

I do not believe the city is financially obligated to keep funding the M1 Streetcar if it’s deemed that it sucks and that they would be better served by building out its original DTOGS plan.

The Legislature authorized creation of an authority to run M1 and obligated state funding for operational costs. The M1 nonprofit's intent is turn turn the system over to the RTA [[once one is formed). Presumably, the RTA's state subsidy and local tax to cover operations would cover M1/Woodward, too.

[Rocko]

Is there a good source of information about the DTOGS plan? If that plan is so much better than the M1 plan, and it very well may be, is there a place for the rest of us to check it out online?

On a side note, Section 106 Review is essentially completed for Woodward Avenue for the Hart Plaza-8 Mile corridor.....another step in the process...

[Gsgeorge]

Is there a good source of information about the DTOGS plan? If that plan is so much better than the M1 plan, and it very well may be, is there a place for the rest of us to check it out online?

On a side note, Section 106 Review is essentially completed for Woodward Avenue for the Hart Plaza-8 Mile corridor.....another step in the process...

http://www.woodwardlightrail.com/StudyResults.html

[dtowncitylover]

So I did my speech in my public speaking class on how Detroit needs mass transit. It went very well, until this was said by a guy in my class:

"Detroit doesn't even have a subway?"

First, I wanted to slap him. But, I know I go to Oakland U and that it's suburban and suburban can be, but c'mon everyone [[should) knows there's not a subway! Even the ditziest people who are scarred of the city, know there's no subway. I just had to shake my head.

[stasu1213]

Cass, I understand your frustration, but it's the corporations that have the money right now. The City of Detroit has almost no money to build a LRT line from downtown to 8 Mile. I applaud these guys for using their own money that will create jobs and growth for the benefit of the resident of Detoit. I don't think you will find these corps running the entire thing that's not their job. Eventually this will be run by DDOT using union work, which I'm all for. You might find their ad on the inside of the train, but that's expected.

As for the People Mover, it is unfortunate that the full plan was never realized but that is old technology and building a monorail or elevated system would cost in the billions. Light rail, like I have state before, is the new thing. Light rail is mass transit. If we build lines along Gratiot, Jefferson, and Grand River, we can really become a transit-oriented city. It is not, however, heavy rail transit, like a subway.

Remember, M-1 Rail and DTOGS are working together. While M-1 may say that have yet to determine what the stations are going to look like, DTOGS has. I think for an urban place like Lower Woodward I can dig curbside. But perhaps north of the Boulevard it can move into the middle of the street.

And, ljbad, San Fran also has a extensive light rail system which co-mingles with traffice for some, if not most, of the line.

I would really like to see AnsaldoBreda be awarded the contract for light rail vehicles, they make awesome products.

The one concern I have about the curbside idea is that someone might purposly or accidentally park there car by the curb causing a major stoppage. I would be glad when or if this plan jumps from the paper into the running of the system. That would let me know that GM, the other two car companies, the oil company, and the tire companies don't have a major say so on how things are ran in the "Motor City".

[esp1986]

The one concern I have about the curbside idea is that someone might purposly or accidentally park there car by the curb causing a major stoppage. I would be glad when or if this plan jumps from the paper into the running of the system. That would let me know that GM, the other two car companies, the oil company, and the tire companies don't have a major say so on how things are ran in the "Motor City".

Tow trucks would be on call to tow such cars out of the way...

[dtowncitylover]

That's a valid concern statsu, but I don't think anyone would be stupid enough do that. Nobody just sits on the train track, none that I've ever seen. I'm sure there'll be a large PR campaign on how to deal with the new light rail.

[izzyindetroit]

Public comments are to be taken in the following month..


The public is invited to attend the Woodward Avenue Light Rail Transit
Project public hearings sponsored by the City of Detroit and the U.S.
Department of Transportation Federal Transit Administration on Saturday,
February 12, 2011. There will be two hearings: The first from 11 a.m.
to 1 p.m. with a presentation at 11:30 a.m.; the second from 6 p.m. to 8
p.m. with a presentation at 6:30 p.m. The public may participate in one
or both events, which will be held at the Main Detroit Public Library,
Lower Level Auditorium, 5201 Woodward Avenue.

The purpose of the hearings is to give interested parties opportunities
to provide comments on the Draft Environmental Impact Statement [[DEIS).
This includes the project’s purpose and need, the alternatives
considered, the potential environmental and community impacts evaluated,
and some preliminary measures proposed to mitigate those impacts.

Project staff will be available to informally discuss the DEIS and the
proposed project, beginning 30 minutes before each presentation. Copies
of the DEIS are available at several municipal buildings and will be
available for review at the public hearing. The Notice of Availability
period for public participation and comments ends on March 14, 2011.

Hearing materials will be available in English, Arabic and Spanish and
translators will be on site. Individuals with special needs or who
require an accessible format version of the public hearing invitation
should contact eaa.inform@gmail.com

For more information on the Woodward Light Rail Transit Project, go to
the project Web site at
www.woodwardlightrail.com or call [[313) 933-1300.

[mam2009]

http://www.semcog.org/Data/Apps/tran...password=guest

Can anybody with a transit background interpret this for me?

1. What does RTP stand for?
2. Is this saying that funding has been approved for the ENTIRE Woodward Light Rail project?
3. Does this mean that federal funding is being used for a study on a study for light rail in Oakland County between 8 and 11 Mile Roads?

I'm excited about the possiblity for light rail especially if it expands beyond Woodward. I am concerned about whether we can pay for it though.

[bahbay]

It works in SanFran.

Exsqueeze Me! ... but it _definately_ does not work in SF. It is NOT designed as an honor system, it is getting increasingly harder to ride for free [[ the MUNI Police write $100 citations for 1st offense fare scofflaws). All riders must have in their possesion valid proof of payment.
[[MUNI = SF Municipal Railway)

just sayin...

[tkelly1986]

I have a question about the light rail as it heads through Royal Oak [[hoping it eventually does). Does it really make since to keep it down Woodward or should it head up Main Street after stoping at the Zoo? Woodward is not the main stretch in RO, creating a missed oppertunity for potential riders of the light rail.

A pipe dream would be to have the line split at the Zoo in to a Roal Oak/Troy line [[following Main to Livernois ending at Big Beaver) and a Woodward line to Pontiac.

Thoughts??

[dtowncitylover]

Exsqueeze Me! ... but it _definately_ does not work in SF. It is NOT designed as an honor system, it is getting increasingly harder to ride for free [[ the MUNI Police write $100 citations for 1st offense fare scofflaws). All riders must have in their possesion valid proof of payment.
[[MUNI = SF Municipal Railway)

just sayin...

I think that's what I was saying. That SanFran's honor system of paying makes it hard for people to ride for free because of the Transit police.

[dtowncitylover]

The old tram that went to Royal Oak, stop at Main and Catalpa, so I don't see why this couldn't happen again. Of course there's the 11 Mile bus that does cross Woodward there that would be a feeder into an 11 Mile station.

[esp1986]

I have a question about the light rail as it heads through Royal Oak [[hoping it eventually does). Does it really make since to keep it down Woodward or should it head up Main Street after stoping at the Zoo? Woodward is not the main stretch in RO, creating a missed oppertunity for potential riders of the light rail.

A pipe dream would be to have the line split at the Zoo in to a Roal Oak/Troy line [[following Main to Livernois ending at Big Beaver) and a Woodward line to Pontiac.

Thoughts??

The plan, as I have understood it, was done with an eye to Birmingham. The goal is someday for the line to make it to Maple Rd [[15 Mile). There have been a lot of critics on both sides of that topic, but they are doing this one step at a time, and this posting by SEMCOG is the most recent step in an ongoing research study on the feasibility of the next step which is merely to get the line into Oakland County and as far as Royal Oak. This is the biggest hurdle right now. There is a very good chance that some sort of line will be built as of now, but how far it goes will determine a lot. If it goes only from Hart Plaza to New Center, we essentially have another people mover. If it makes it to 8 MIle/Fairgrounds, it is good progress, and will give people access to the Meijer that is going in there.

The biggest hurdle the line faces is whether or not it will get into Oakland County. Right now they are just trying to get it there then they will worry about it going further, but they have to get it there first.

[Gistok]

I have a question about the light rail as it heads through Royal Oak [[hoping it eventually does). Does it really make since to keep it down Woodward or should it head up Main Street after stoping at the Zoo? Woodward is not the main stretch in RO, creating a missed oppertunity for potential riders of the light rail.

A pipe dream would be to have the line split at the Zoo in to a Roal Oak/Troy line [[following Main to Livernois ending at Big Beaver) and a Woodward line to Pontiac.

Thoughts??

IIRC... when they built the I-696/Woodward interchange, where Woodward tunnels under the Freeway... they added a right of way in the middle to handle a future rail line. Now granted if they used that... that would bypass not only a turn-off for Main Street, but also the Zoo itself [[since Woodward comes back up to street level well north of the Zoo.

[MSUguy]

Is there any work toward forming a real regional transit authority?

[tkelly1986]

IIRC... when they built the I-696/Woodward interchange, where Woodward tunnels under the Freeway... they added a right of way in the middle to handle a future rail line. Now granted if they used that... that would bypass not only a turn-off for Main Street, but also the Zoo itself [[since Woodward comes back up to street level well north of the Zoo.

Could there be a stop in front of the zoo with stairs going up to the over pass much like the chicago redline has along 90/94 on the Southside?

[Danny]

There will a public meeting for the Woodward Light Rail Transit at the DPL Main Branch at Woodward Ave north of Warren Ave from 11:00am to 1:00pm. on Saturday February 12th. Go voice your concerns.

[esp1986]

Is there any work toward forming a real regional transit authority?

Legislation was introduced into the state legislature, but it isn't exactly a 'hot-button' so it hasn't gone anywhere as of yet. Rick Snyder has said one of his priorities, aside from the state's budget problems, is bridging the gap between transit in Michigan in comparison with other states. I really think Snyder can coerce the legislature to move this thing through, but time will tell.

[DetroitPlanner]

Could there be a stop in front of the zoo with stairs going up to the over pass much like the chicago redline has along 90/94 on the Southside?

too deep at that point for stairs. remember woodward is under the freeway, and that is depressed there! ADA would have issues and there is little space to put in a functioning accessible station.

I would run the train at street level. We have signal pre-emption technology now that should mitigate the time issues.