Woodward/M1 Rail -- DDOT reach accord on light rail

**3rdDegreeBurns** · February-14-11, 02:03 PM

That would be very forward-looking for MDOT, and I hope they did indeed anticipate the need for rail down the center north of Grand. It's pretty obvious that MDOT thinks the project is going to happen, or else they would have redone Woodward all the way down to the Fisher as was originally planned. They probably held-off because of the debate over median-running vs. curbside-running south of Grand Blvd.

I'm also really glad they are moving fast on this project [[by federal standards, this DEIS was completed in record time). Not only because Detroit need it badly, but because Republicans in Washington are proposing to cut the New Starts budget [[this is where most of the federal money will come from). However, the budget Obama submitted today calls for significantly expanded transportation infrastructure spending, hoping to take advantage of low material and labor cost while creating construction jobs. Recent statements by the Secretary of Transportation also show that Ray LaHood is very much behind this project. He even went so far as to say the Bing is his favorite mayor in the country!

So, if you're in favor of this project, keep showing your support for the President. If the tea party activists win this debate there will be no funding coming from the feds.

**tallboy66** · February-14-11, 08:44 PM

Nothing will happen but keep posting threads about how Detroit will get a mass transit system.

OC/Detroit/Macomb... makes money off selling cars and they are too short sighted to realize that a diverse economy with mass transit means more money in the local economy with more people buying cars with disposable income from good jobs.

A large number of people in Chicago own cars but don't drive them daily because they can use mass transit.

**dtowncitylover** · February-14-11, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by tallboy66

OC/Detroit/Macomb... makes money off selling cars and they are too short sighted to realize that a diverse economy with mass transit means more money in the local economy with more people buying cars with disposable income from good jobs.

If they are too shorted sighted then how did we get this far? When the Mayor and Governor realize the importance of such things, then why are things moving right along? Yeah, it's gonna take some convincing with OC, but all in due time really.

**3rdDegreeBurns** · February-15-11, 02:19 PM

The leadership in Detroit, Wayne County, State of Michigan, and Washington D.C. have all expressed their commitment to the Woodward Light Rail project. Public comments at the meeting last Saturday were overwhelmingly in support of the project. Some of Detroit's most powerful businesspeople have put up $125 million dollars of their own money for the project.

Who exactly do you think these short-sighted people are? It's not 1960 anymore. There is absolutely no organized opposition to this project from the auto companies.

**professorscott** · February-15-11, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by 3rdDegreeBurns

There is absolutely no organized opposition to this project from the auto companies.

Better still, there does not seem to be any organized opposition from any corner. There are individuals and possibly organizations that don't like this or that specific aspect of it, but that will be true of any significant project that impacts the public.

The fact that Brooks Patterson [[for instance) hasn't spoken against it speaks volumes.

When the final route and list of stations is determined then there will be some shouting, but again, that will be disagreement over details rather than concept.

I'm pretty cynical in general, but I think this thing might just get built.

**Hypestyles** · February-15-11, 04:15 PM

...what about finally getting the "big four" to agree on a regional transit authority? This should hopefully happen sooner rather than later, to help expedite expansion of the rail line...

**Russix** · February-15-11, 04:36 PM

I think it's a good move to hold off on the Regional Transit Authority until after the WWLR is built. If OC wants it expanded then it would be alot easier to bring them in under an RTA to help defer some of the cost on the region, opposed to bring them in to help pay for the Detroit portion.

**professorscott** · February-15-11, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by Hypestyles

...what about finally getting the "big four" to agree on a regional transit authority? This should hopefully happen sooner rather than later, to help expedite expansion of the rail line...

The big four don't have the authority to create such a thing. A regional transit authority would have to be created by the State. What we need is for a few legislators to have their staffs sit down with Jerry Poisson from LBP's office, someone from Mayor Bing's office, and the proper counterpart from Wayne and Macomb Counties and discuss what would be acceptable, and hammer out a compromise.

I'm not sure it matters whether that happens before, during or after WLR, but it has to happen. All the transit service in SE MI is hanging on by a thread nowadays; the current structure obviously doesn't work very well for anyone, so it has to change. To what exactly, God only knows.

**esp1986** · February-15-11, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by professorscott

The big four don't have the authority to create such a thing. A regional transit authority would have to be created by the State. What we need is for a few legislators to have their staffs sit down with Jerry Poisson from LBP's office, someone from Mayor Bing's office, and the proper counterpart from Wayne and Macomb Counties and discuss what would be acceptable, and hammer out a compromise.

I'm not sure it matters whether that happens before, during or after WLR, but it has to happen. All the transit service in SE MI is hanging on by a thread nowadays; the current structure obviously doesn't work very well for anyone, so it has to change. To what exactly, God only knows.

For whatever happens transit-wise in this region, an authority needs to be created. There has long been talk of merging the bus services together as well, this would best be done under the same authority, providing cohesive and streamlined service.

**3rdDegreeBurns** · February-15-11, 11:27 PM

The best argument for an RTA would be if supporters could show short-term cost savings for municipalities. Every city is currently pinching every last penny and drawing down reserves to a dangerous level. If an RTA will save them money over the next two years, they will probably support it.

I know the biggest opposition came from the Detroit state reps last year, because they wanted a guarantee that current funding ratios would be maintained indefinitely [[I think Detroit currently gets 80% of the region's transit apportionment). To me that just seems like fighting over scraps, instead of trying to expand the pie for everyone [[RTA would enable federal grants the region can't currently qualify).

If the Detroit opposition can be overcome, I think we will see significant opposition from the municipalities that are currently SMART opt-out cities. Any RTA legislation that's worth anything would provide taxing authority to the RTA and allow the authority to determine both service areas and levy taxes to support those services [[probably with a ceiling). Any city that is going to be asked to pay more right now will oppose, for sure...

I'm a big supporter of the RTA idea. I think they only way they can sell it is by reducing costs for current SMART service areas in the short-term. They can levy new taxes to support system expansion in 2-3 years when city budgets start to recover. I also agree that it doesn't need to happen before the Woodward LRT. Im absolutely convinced that when that train starts running, and the development along Woodward takes off, every community in Oakland and Macomb will be DEMANDING that it be extended. When that happens LBP, Hantz, or whoever is in charge in a couple of years will support the regional authority needed to make it happen.

NorthEndere · February-16-11, 07:06 AM

If I'm not mistaken, the legislature passed a bill nearly two years ago that allowed for the creation of RTAs, so as far as the state's responsibility is concerned, they've done there part for the time being.

From my understanding, the only parting holding up the creation of one in the local area has been Detroit, because it's afraid it'll lose its dominance in terms of funding that would be allocated to city transit projects. More specifically, Bing has been dragging his feet on this for quite some time. It kind of surprised me, because I thought if anyone was going to hold up the creation of an RTA it'd be some suburban executive/commission. I honestly don't expect Bing to do any more than he feels he absolutely has to do on transit. He's shown since he's gotten in office that transit is of far secondary concern and priority, to him, I hate to say it.

**professorscott** · February-16-11, 11:55 AM

The bill to create DARTA passed years ago, but Gov. Engler vetoed it. Since then the legislature has not passed any RTA bill. One was introduced in 2009 but it was fatally flawed and did not pass in the legislature. So the ball is, as I said, in the state's court.

The problem with transit in the region is simply that we choose not to pay for it. Most urban areas of 3 million to 5 million people have a transit system that costs about $240 per capita to operate a year. Our transit systems operate on $75 per capita.

Since we are paying less than one-third the average amount, we have a very minimal transit system: no rapid transit and buses only once an hour or so on many routes, many SMART routes with no mid-day or weekend service, and so on.

Regional authority or not, if we want to be a 21st century big-city region, we just have to be willing to pay for things that big-city regions all have to have. Otherwise we can sit around and congratulate each other on all the money we're saving while our City and region continues to wither on the vine and become less and less relevant in the world.

**Danny** · February-16-11, 12:05 PM

Just like the People Mover, The new M1 light rail will be Detroit's trolley system since we lost our trolly system. The last trolley system run from East to West Jefferson to Washington Blvd. was in early 1990s.

WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET

Now we need a subway.

Neda, I miss you so.

**MSUguy** · February-16-11, 12:43 PM

Has anyone heard about City Council holding a special meeting on Friday about light rail? I heard it at the tailend of yesterdays session on ch 10, of course, yesterday is the only day in the online archive[[which how I usually watch session) that doesn't work .

**izzyindetroit** · March-08-11, 01:03 AM

It must be really important the rail goes down the center.

**Russix** · March-08-11, 02:09 AM

^Now thats just awesome!

**Joseph C. Krause** · March-08-11, 02:33 AM

Down the middle!! The video speaks the truth!

**stasu1213** · March-08-11, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by izzyindetroit

It must be really important the rail goes down the center.

I agree that the train should run in the middle. It makes common sense. Others who feel that the train should run on the side don't use common sense and probably are putting up a debate to stall the process. You never know what forces are behind the scene to prolong this from happening.

**Russix** · March-13-11, 11:49 AM

Time is almost up to submit your comments woodwardlightrail@detroitmi.gov

**innercitydoc** · March-13-11, 12:15 PM

I'm for center running like the majority but I just have one question. What happens to the Thanksgiving day parade? Usually the entire street is utilized.

**professorscott** · March-13-11, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by innercitydoc

I'm for center running like the majority but I just have one question. What happens to the Thanksgiving day parade? Usually the entire street is utilized.

I wasn't around at the time, but the easiest way to answer this would be to find someone who knows how they ran the Thanksgiving Day parade back when there were streetcar tracks down the center of Woodward.

After all, this isn't something new we're doing here; we're just putting back something we took away 55 years ago.

**dtowncitylover** · March-13-11, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by professorscott

I wasn't around at the time, but the easiest way to answer this would be to find someone who knows how they ran the Thanksgiving Day parade back when there were streetcar tracks down the center of Woodward.

After all, this isn't something new we're doing here; we're just putting back something we took away 55 years ago.

Well I assume that stations won't be as tall as the balloons are high. And maybe the floats/marching bands would just go around the stations or keep to one side.

**Mikeg** · March-13-11, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by innercitydoc

I'm for center running like the majority but I just have one question. What happens to the Thanksgiving day parade? Usually the entire street is utilized.

Originally Posted by professorscott

I wasn't around at the time, but the easiest way to answer this would be to find someone who knows how they ran the Thanksgiving Day parade back when there were streetcar tracks down the center of Woodward.

After all, this isn't something new we're doing here; we're just putting back something we took away 55 years ago.

Here is a 2 minute home movie taken of the 1931 Hudson's Thanksgiving Day Parade. A parked streetcar is clearly shown in the background and the parade route ran between the curb and the streetcar. The crowds on one side stood along the curb and on the opposite side along the streetcar tracks. The parade floats, balloons, papier-mache heads, etc. all had to be designed to clear the overhead streetcar wires.

Wikipedia indicates that the parade ran down Second Ave. for several years prior to the 1956 demise of the Woodward streetcar line..

**Brian1979** · March-13-11, 03:21 PM

I haven't seen the parade much in recent years and haven't been to the parade since 2002, I believe the routing that year went from the New Center area down to Adams, so with the new routing down to Congress how do the floats get past the people mover at Grand Circus Park?

**Gistok** · March-13-11, 06:09 PM

Are you sure the streetcar was in the middle of Woodward? Or was it to one side? Woodward was widened circa 1935 [[after this footage was taken)... and I don't think the avenue was wide enough for a streetcar going down the middle AND a parade going down 1/2 of pre-1935 Woodward.

Since the People Mover was installed... whenever the parade has gone underneath the route... they "lowered" the balloons under the PM beams. They probably have some sort of practice doing this with float balloons at the Parade Co. Warehouse.