Woodward/M1 Rail -- DDOT reach accord on light rail

[Scottathew]

I know I'm WAY ahead of my thinking here, but is this the beginning of making RPTC a hub for other light rail projects as well?

For example, a Michigan Ave-Gratiot Ave [[Wayne\Dearborn to Mt.Clemens) that also stops off at RPTC.

Or another example, a Grand River line that takes you from Farmington to RPTC.


I'm really geeked about the possibilities, but right now just getting M1 Phase 1 done in the next 5 years would be nice. But if we can show that an M1 [[RPTC - Pontiac) line is successful people will want more.

[Hypestyles]

who will be involved in the press release for the study? Mayor bing? Ray Lahood? others? how does ongoing city financial problems impact this?

..how would job development proceed from here for construction, etc.?

[Tig3rzhark]

I know I'm WAY ahead of my thinking here, but is this the beginning of making RPTC a hub for other light rail projects as well?

For example, a Michigan Ave-Gratiot Ave [[Wayne\Dearborn to Mt.Clemens) that also stops off at RPTC.

Or another example, a Grand River line that takes you from Farmington to RPTC.


I'm really geeked about the possibilities, but right now just getting M1 Phase 1 done in the next 5 years would be nice. But if we can show that an M1 [[RPTC - Pontiac) line is successful people will want more.

As long as the track for that runs down the center, I'm all for it for Michigan.

As for Grand River, BRT would probably work better with that. It can just be assigned a bus bay at RPTC.

[Warrenite84]

Although I would have preferred a loop design that bypasses Campus Maritus, I am satisfied that the project takes some of both concerns into account. [[When both sides grumble a little, it must be a fair solution). It seems to me that CM would be a little crowded when civic functions are held there. Do we want people mixing with LRT trains during the Winter Blast? How about the Jazz Festival, Fireworks, Parades, etc.

I am also a little unsure of how the RPTC spur will be implemented. It doesn't seem to take into account future additions to the system such as expansion of routes up Gratiot, Michigan, and others.

As for the extra stops above Foxtown: Temple will probably be an entry point to a Red Wings Arena, Ferry St. will add additional access to the upper end of WSU and their future Business Administration Building planned near there. These extra stops I believe will promote greater urban densities from GCP to New Center, finally bridging the gap between the CBD and New Center as intended when GM first moved there.

Overall, I am glad that the project is moving forward.

[Scottathew]

First of all, though the original M1 Rail alignment did not serve Rosa Parks Transit Center, the alignment now proposed provides access to all the west-side bus routes and does so without sacrificing travel time from 8 Mile to downtown [[since the train, going south, goes to RPTC after it has already been downtown).

I agree. It satisfies getting you downtown with the added benefit of a RPTC connection.

If we were to build more lines in the future, Dearnborn-RPTC-Mt. Clemens[[Via Michigan and Gratiot), Farmington-RPTC [[via Grand River), and Riverview-RPTC-GPW [[via Fort and Jefferson), then we could actually completely do-away with the People Mover.

The BIG issue facing the People Mover in a "distributor" scenario is the fact that it only goes one way. So you might have an efficient trip in the morning, but not so efficient in the afternoon. So instead of having a system distribute between systems, have all the systems meet in one spot. Much like in New York at the Times' Square subway station that has quite a few lines.

[esp1986]

I agree. It satisfies getting you downtown with the added benefit of a RPTC connection.

If we were to build more lines in the future, Dearnborn-RPTC-Mt. Clemens[[Via Michigan and Gratiot), Farmington-RPTC [[via Grand River), and Riverview-RPTC-GPW [[via Fort and Jefferson), then we could actually completely do-away with the People Mover.

The BIG issue facing the People Mover in a "distributor" scenario is the fact that it only goes one way. So you might have an efficient trip in the morning, but not so efficient in the afternoon. So instead of having a system distribute between systems, have all the systems meet in one spot. Much like in New York at the Times' Square subway station that has quite a few lines.

The RPTC stop is negligible since it is the last stop. The train has already stopped everywhere along the line, in the CBD you are no more than a short block further from your destination, so the RPTC stop shouldn't affect anyone negatively [[after time for turnaround is taken into account). It is just an added bonus for people transferring to the buses to have it wrap back around to Washington, so to me that is a non factor as it isn't going to keep anyone from getting anywhere any quicker.

[jsmyers]

I also see they moved the Amtrak station/Baltimore Street stop down to Piquette. I'm sure this isn't the reason, but it would be nice if that's because someone realized that New Center will not always be the future home for an intercity rail station. That's my reason, anyhow

I would have preferred a stop right at Amtrak, in case the Ann Arbor commuter rail actually ever starts operating, but if that turns out to be a big issue a stop can always be added later.

It is because the state's plan is to move the station to the other side and expand it. This lot is planned for the station:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=detroi...69922&t=h&z=18

[Russix]

The Fox Theatre is 200 yard from Grand Circus Park. That's the same distance as Greektown to Bricktown or Renaissance Center to Millender Center. Let's please, please have just one for that purpose.

Agreed! I have a feeling they will build a foxtown station. When the money is safely in the bank, the foxtown station will go away. Private investors are not paying anything toward the annual operation of this so improvements to better serve the public will be possible.

[innercitydoc]

It is because the state's plan is to move the station to the other side and expand it. This lot is planned for the station:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=detroi...69922&t=h&z=18

Then why is this lot newly paved with parking spots and lights? Seems like a big investment in a parking lot to later tear it up for a new station

[rbdetsport]

The paved lot is the first phase until the state can get enough money for the actual project. It is currently being used as overflow for the current amtrak station and for techtown.

[MDoyle]

In the following article in section 10-a there is a note about vehicle train interaction. It seems to imply that in the center running portions there will
Be a dedicated ROW. In other sections it is mentioned that Woodward will maintain 2 lanes on traffic in either direction and 1 for parking while 10-a suggests that the center running option will limit left turns as well. Thoughts?

http://www.woodwardlightrail.citymax...Light_Rail.pdf

[kryptonite]

The News article was not wonderful, it left gaps in the information and seemed to conflict with some of the posts I am reading here.

still this is positive news. A map of a proposed route with lines and directional arrows would have been helpful. It mentions going north on Washington Blvd. to the RPTC, which that would involve a trip down Mich Ave. or some other side street. And how does a train make some of the turns that it sounds like the route will involve? Did I miss something? Even the old Washington Blvd. trolley which was a single car only had one actual turn in the route.

People will be so pleased to see this get underway.

[esp1986]

In the following article in section 10-a there is a note about vehicle train interaction. It seems to imply that in the center running portions there will
Be a dedicated ROW. In other sections it is mentioned that Woodward will maintain 2 lanes on traffic in either direction and 1 for parking while 10-a suggests that the center running option will limit left turns as well. Thoughts?

http://www.woodwardlightrail.citymax...Light_Rail.pdf

I remember seeing a video of Dallas' center running system. There were no left turns, and they were clearly marked. I don't think this is a big issue at all. The issue is when there are people who are insistent on making a left hand turn anyway and do so into an oncoming train.

[cramerro]

kryptonite, if you read the News, the press release, and this article from yesterday, you can get a clearer picture.

Here's the FREEP article from yesterday with a route map: http://www.freep.com/article/2011062...text|FRONTPAGE

Reading the press release brought up some interesting points that i hadn't thought about, including the fire department issues and the pedestrian crossings.

This design will actually IMHO be a positive for pedestrians along Woodward. Right now, there is a 6-9? lanes to cross, depending on where you cross. The center-running rail will be a built-in pedestrian refuge island to break up the distance and make crossing less intimidating.

As for the left turns, having the dedicated lanes for tracks will by nature limit left turns to where they open up the curbing/physical elements for the overhead wires that will accompany the tracks to left turns, mostly at signalized intersections with thier own tun phases to keep traffic moving through the track area efficiently. That is similar to the preliminary designs URS did for the CATA Michigan/Grand River alternatives analysis.

See page 2 of this doc for some sample schematics: http://www.migrtrans.org/documents/o...104_no7_LR.pdf

[stinkytofu]

Maybe I missed this, but does anybody know a time frame for what's next? One of the articles mentioned this agreement basically ignites a series of things happening, but I'm curious about how soon it is feasible that we'll see shovels in ground [[assuming the priviate investors sign off within the next few weeks)?

[cramerro]

The $25 million grant that was promised earlier will become available in September. That money is for the engineering process, which has to be completed and approved. After that, I can't remember if they need more Federal dollars for Phase I, or if the money they have in hand is enough for Phase I and then the Federal Matching dollars will end up paying for Phase II.

[jsmyers]

Then why is this lot newly paved with parking spots and lights? Seems like a big investment in a parking lot to later tear it up for a new station

I was not aware of this. I no longer live in Michigan. The last time I went to Detroit [[November) I was only downtown.

Not knowing how much money they put into the lot, it is hard address, but it seems to me to be better to make the land useful in the short term. I know that Amtrak in Detroit is hurt by the difficulty in parking and leaving a car. I know Ann Arbor's station is always short on parking.

[BigD]

More details emerge...http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...r-wings-arena#

[gthomas]

When will we see the FINAL design of the Light-rail? Also, the Temple st. stop is kind of questioning now.. for a possible arena location?

[animatedmartian]

http://www.freep.com/article/20111017/NEWS01/111017027/Feds-offer-46-7-million-Woodward-Light-Rail-new-buses

$6 million for DDOT

$5 million for SMART

Money for Ann Arbor and Port Huron projects included.

[stasu1213]

Detroit should purchase busses that are similar to Windor's busses. Windsor's busses are more roomier with wider aisles. The new busses that Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick boasted of that the city had purchased a couple of years ago has narrow aisles and seating is inadequate. The city also need to focus on finding a new street downtown for DDOT and Smart bus stops. There is a bottle neck in front of the Buhl building on Griswold where SMART bus passenger board and another more terrible bottle neck on Larened on the side of the City County Building where DDOT and Smart pick up passengers.. There has to be a street in the area where busses could pick up passengers without DDOT and SMART getting in each other's way

[Detroitej72]

When will the shovels start digging?

[animatedmartian]

When will the shovels start digging?

The http://www.woodwardlightrail.com/ProjectOverview.html says there isn't a finalized schedule yet, but it is supposed to start before the end of this year. There's only 2 and 1/2 months left so presumably very soon?

[Dexlin]

Shovels won't be going into the ground until next year. They moved the start date up for construction many months ago. You don't usually start a project like this in winter, so I suspect it'll be Spring of next year.

[401don]

Shovels won't be going into the ground until next year. They moved the start date up for construction many months ago. You don't usually start a project like this in winter, so I suspect it'll be Spring of next year.

That's just 3 years from the start of this thread, which begins with a Crain's article stating the goal is to begin construction by the end of 2009.