Woodward/M1 Rail -- DDOT reach accord on light rail

[dcmorrison12]

Has there been any update since May?

I thought I read that the M-1 Rail was going to have to wait to do an "environmental study". In order to not jeopardize future Federal Funding. Is that true?

Also, Wasn't the M-1 Team going to have a website up and running?

French, I can answer your question although before that:

Refrain from simply speaking about M-1 Rail - there is no more M-1 Rail [[essentially) because they are not a stand alone project anymore - they will be combining with DDOT and the DTOGS/Woodward Light Rail will be the sole project. Of course, negotiations are not complete, but the deadline for DDOT to send in their New Starts application is set for end of this August [[moved back a month). They has been an agreement among the two sides that only one project can be constructed, and therefore the two will be combined.

SO, as for updates:

-Application for New Starts funding is scheduled to be sent in by the end of this August

-M-1 Rail will be using their $125 million as the local match needed for the DTOGS/Woodward Light Rail project and the rest of the funding is coming from Federal Stimulus dollars [[50 million) and then of course the New Starts grant - if awarded to Detroit

- I meet with the DTOGS/Woodward Light Rail project manager and a Planner over at DDOT every once in a while - I've been told from the horses mouth that the application is VERY strong and odds are very much on Detroit's side to receive the grant.

- M-1 Rail is "committed" to following the New Starts process, because if they didn't, then DDOT and Detroit will be exempt form the New Starts funding and regional light rail in Metro Detroit will become another myth.

- As for the environmental study - I suppose, depending on how the New Center to Downtown section ends up looking like [[M-1 rail or DDOT design) then they will have to do an EIS in order to qualify for the grant. I don't believe the negotiations have reached an agreement on details such as that, but they do not need to settle these details until they reach the engineering stage. In other words, they can apply for the grant and then worry about details like that.

Any other questions?

To sum it up, it's becoming more and more foolish to be skeptical about Regional Light Rail coming to Detroit. We should have an 8 mile to Downtown line running around 2013

[French777]

Thanks Dcmorrison12! I am just so Pumped for this to be a reality!!!

[ASR89]

Hey Morrison, thank you for the information. When the two plans will have merged, will the New Centre to downtown portion be median-running & large LR vehicles or side-running streetcars? Personally, I'd like the larger light rail trains. There was someone who said that streetcars could only run on a certain kind of track, and that they would be slower. So while streetcars could be okay for 3 miles, they might not be the best idea for a route that extent to 8 Mile, Royal Oak, or ultimately Pontiac.

[digitalvision]

He who holds the gold makes the rules. Seems to me the business forces hold the gold right now, and so they're going to make the rules. That's just life. The city is broke, the state is virtually broke, and the federal government is busy printing money so better use it.

Progress requires compromise, and I've been and lived in plenty of places where streetcars of various types co-mingle with traffic and it's just fine. I've driven, walked, and been on the streetcars and you just get used to it and adjust.

I feel, for some reason, that many of the opponents of whatever plan [[we've seen various iterations and discussed this topic a lot on this forum) tend to not have ever actually lived in another mass-transit filled city. Sorta like people who go on and on about NYC or Chicago or wherever but never actually lived there, they -maybe- stayed for a few days. Taking a theme from another thread, you gotta be in a place [[I'd say at least a month or so, where you go to work, get groceries get into a routine, etc) to know what you're talking about or have any real standing to know "what it's like."

[dcmorrison12]

The New Center to Downtown section has not been agreed upon in terms of how it will run in the road - best case scenario it runs down the middle. This is a detail they still need to negotiate - however New Center to 8 mile will be the DTOGS/Woodward Light Rail design.

As for the comment about Streetcars being ok - this is true - However.....

They are downtown circulators and nothing more - It's a fact - [[which anyone involved in mass transit would know and also is something you can find online) - that Modern Street cars are set up, built and designed strictly for downtown circulation of people. It is not set up, designed or built for commuting and therefore will put a nail in the coffin of regional mass transit if it were the sole transit mode used.

Again.... this coming from the Planner from DDOT and the project manager of the DTOGS/Woodward Light Rail... Straight from the horses mouth...A side running streetcar will have a negative impact on bussing and parking - creating major headaches for DDOT/SMART and people wanting to park on the side of the road. The trains wouldn't run on time - like LRT will - since they will co-mingle in traffic, won't have signal priority [[this is what M-1 Rail has stated they want), and will have to stop for cars pulling out of parking spots/bus pulling in/out of bus stops. You won't notice much of a difference between Modern Streetcar and Bussing along Woodward, if it were built.

I've written a 40 page report on the three rail projects [[DTOGS, M-1 Rail and AA Detroit Commuter rail) for the Wayne State University Board of Governors. I've done my research on the different types of Transit Modes and what scenarios they are best suited for. I've dove deep into the details of all three projects and have spoken DIRECTLY to the transit organizations to get direct quotes/project information from them.

Best case scenario - M-1 rail and DTOGS/Woodward Light Rail combine - the line goes from 8 mile to downtown and the line contains AS MANY of the DTOGS characteristics as possible, since factually it's the superior project.

If you don't believe me that M-1 rail pales in comparison to DTOGS, then do your own research - please prove me wrong.

[ASR89]

In an ideal world where Detroit has a lot of extra cash, I'd like the trains to go underneath Woodward for the dowtown portion. There would be a hub at Campus Martius or Hart Plaza where the Woodward, Michigan Avenue, Gratiot, Grand River, Jefferson and Fort rail lines meet up. It would be nice to have rail that goes down Woodward in downtown [[and in general) without co-minging in traffic.

[stasu1213]

I will believe it when I see it. Planners and leaders in Detroit have been feeding us this line of bullshit for more than 40 years. There is always a snag in the planning. Detroit was set up as a car town. The leaders had been in the pockets of the Big 3 for years. Here is an idea. Take a street that runs parrellel to woodward such as John R, Cass, or some street that is rarely travelled upon. Put the rail lines there. Have feeders take people from that street to Woodward

[dcmorrison12]

That's funny, cause Detroit was built off the train, before and during the car "phase" of Detroit's history. Either way, I'd agree that if Detroit were to build Modern Streetcar, they should place it on Cass and John R. However, it's been deemed, by the expert/professional planners at DDOT that Woodward is the best road for LRT. Also, the people of Detroit want it there [[most importantly)

[stasu1213]

Woodward was narrowed off so that a lightrail couldn't complete the trip. Look at woodward downtown up to grand circus park. too narrow. look at highland park. too narrow streets like hamilton, john r, first second third could be used.

[Russix]

DTOGS has been planning on bypassing lower Woodward from the start. http://www.woodwardlightrail.com/f/C...-02-25_070.pdf

I think you meant to say that in certain areas Woodward was never widened. Woodward is 7 seven lanes between Grand Blvd and Seven Mile, with the exception that its 9 lanes for a small segment in Highland Park. Two are parking lanes and one center turn lane. Plenty of room. It's not like this is something new and completely experimental.
http://www.metromodemedia.com/images...0streetcar.jpg

[esp1986]

Detroit News reports the project is a go, construction will start in 2010.

http://detnews.com/article/20100304/...roject-is-a-go

[BShea]

Detroit News reports the project is a go, construction will start in 2010.

http://detnews.com/article/20100304/...roject-is-a-go

That's not really news. It's been reported for awhile now. I had something on it in August [[http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...FREE/908179982) and in subsequent stories.

There are still sign-offs required on M1 Rail, mainly I believe from MDOT and the city council, since Woodward is a state highway running through the city. Those are likely going to be formalities since the city and state say they're behind this, and DDOT is finally working in cooperation with M1 so that the line extends to 8 Mile.

Engineering and site work such as surveying has been going on, too.

[esp1986]

That's not really news. It's been reported for awhile now. I had something on it in August [[http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...FREE/908179982) and in subsequent stories.

There are still sign-offs required on M1 Rail, mainly I believe from MDOT and the city council, since Woodward is a state highway running through the city. Those are likely going to be formalities since the city and state say they're behind this, and DDOT is finally working in cooperation with M1 so that the line extends to 8 Mile.

Engineering and site work such as surveying has been going on, too.

Don't shoot the messenger... I know it's not really news, just passing on the info... the more often we hear about these things the better as far as I'm concerned, considering how often plans change around town, it is good to hear it is still moving forward as planned.

[dtowncitylover]

Coming directly from the Mayor makes me even more hopeful that construction will start this year.

[esp1986]

Coming directly from the Mayor makes me even more hopeful that construction will start this year.

Not sure if this is sarcasm, based on past mayors, it could be, but Bing has yet to really disappoint, so time will tell...

[BShea]

Don't shoot the messenger... I know it's not really news, just passing on the info... the more often we hear about these things the better as far as I'm concerned, considering how often plans change around town, it is good to hear it is still moving forward as planned.

Sorry, wasn't the intent. Just providing some context that this has been out there.

[[FYI - There's a gravestone along the road in Port Huron's big lakeside cemetery that reads just "Messenger")

[dtowncitylover]

Not sure if this is sarcasm, based on past mayors, it could be, but Bing has yet to really disappoint, so time will tell...

Haha! It wasn't sarcasm but re-reading it, yes it does sound like it.

Coleman A. Young and his dream of a subway comes to mind...

[sg9018]

Here is the M1 rail website,
http://www.m-1rail.com/

[dtowncitylover]

Here is the M1 rail website,
http://www.m-1rail.com/

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!

How exciting! Hopefully they will merge their websites!

[professorscott]

THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!

How exciting! Hopefully they will merge their websites!

Well, I doubt they will go so far as to take that drastic step. But it is encouraging that the Mayor, who had not had much to say about M1 Rail up to now, is speaking positively about the light rail pair of projects.

I'm also glad that M1 Rail has gone to the bother of putting up a site, since now we can get information straight from the horse's mouth, instead of always having to wait until Bill has time to do a story on it

[ASR89]

I'm happy this is going forward and all, but still co-mingling with traffic, eh? That mean the light rail vehicles are going to be stuck in traffic after the fireworks too?

[Hypestyles]

at last.. hopefully this project will not get stalled [[again) and construction starts reasonably soon, to prove that transit can work in the metro area...

[esp1986]

I'm happy this is going forward and all, but still co-mingling with traffic, eh? That mean the light rail vehicles are going to be stuck in traffic after the fireworks too?

Dallas' system co-mingles with traffic, and it works quite well... no glaring issues, but all systems have their problems, even subways...

[stasu1213]

"Its financial and organizational backers include Penske Corp. founder Roger Penske Peter, who is chairman of the M1 Rail project; Peter Karmanos Jr., founder of Detroit-based software maker Compuware Corp.; Mike Ilitch, owner of the Detroit Tigers and Detroit Red Wings and co-founder of Little Caesar Enterprises Inc.; and Quicken Loans/Rock Financial founder Dan Gilbert, who’s the project’s co-chairman."

City officials love to flex their muscle, but there's no way they can object to heavy hitters like that. These are people who actually get things done.

What does the Ford family has to say being that Ford Field is in the area to. Let's hope Dave Bing and the common council doesnt try to stall this project to look out for Ford, GM, the oil companies and any entities that corresponds with the AUTOMOBILE. This will be a perfect time for it. It will not be a problem getting riders on the train being that many people can't afford to have a car anymore. Cheaper to catch the rail. More stores would probably open in Merchants Row on Woodward and the strip of shops along Woodward and Grand Blvd will probably upgrade from cheap wigs and ghetto apparel shops to more upscale shops

[casscorridor]

This website is absurd. Just look at those shoddy pictures and that half-assed video. It is a joke compared to DTOGS. This is what happens when we let corporations control everything. If this is what is built, which functionally is only a minor improvement over the bus, it will stunt future growth of mass transit.

The video caption does say

"
This video demonstrates how the light rail line may function on Woodward Avenue. The actual car and station designs, as well as station locations, have not yet been determined.
"

So... that means it is totally open and there might be a possibility that more will be taken from the DTOGS plan. The video shows different types of cars--mainly smaller--, the stations look pain in compared to DTOGS stations, and the curbside aspect is a NIGHTMARE!

I can not stress enough why we need a massive change in the way federal transportation funding is spent. We can't rely on the mega-wealthy to fund our projects. We get shitty results. This plan is totally lame, for lack of a better word.

ALSO - people always make fun of the People Mover, but it is great. And I wish that was what got built instead of this crap. People Mover runs every 3 minutes and almost never breaks down, much less get stuck in traffic/run into cars. FAR superior to this. Why? Because it has a grade-separated, dedicated right-of-way! It is REAL mass transit. I don't know how this can be considered mass transit.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do something to make sure the DTOGS plan is fully implemented [[with the acception of less stations between midtown and new center) instead of this, which will be hard to work into a real mass transit system. Light-rail will function similarly to rapid transit [[like the people mover), and is just a lesser form of rapid transit. Streetcar is a bus we tracks. end of discussion.