Supreme Court's Verdict on ObamaCare will be a winner- Regardless the Outcome

If the Supreme Court upholds ObamaCare, then People who cannot afford Healthcare shall receive it.


If the Supreme Court decides against ObamaCare and deem it illegal, then Social Security Insurance and Medicare is now illegal. The State of Michigan can no longer mandate that every vehicle owner maintain car insurance. I will be the first to go to court to get my refund on 30 years of payment to Social Security.


So regardless, the Republicans sending this bill to Supreme Court is a win-win situation for all.

Bye Bye mandatory Social Security tax, Medicare Tax, and Car insurance laws.

I LOVE IT!

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Originally Posted by HistoryNotHisStory

If the Supreme Court upholds ObamaCare, then People who cannot afford Healthcare shall receive it.


If the Supreme Court decides against ObamaCare and deem it illegal, then Social Security Insurance and Medicare is now illegal. The State of Michigan can no longer mandate that every vehicle owner maintain car insurance. I will be the first to go to court to get my refund on 30 years of payment to Social Security.


So regardless, the Republicans sending this bill to Supreme Court is a win-win situation for all.

Bye Bye mandatory Social Security tax, Medicare Tax, and Car insurance laws.

I LOVE IT!

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I had thought something similar. But the reality is, AHA imposes a mandate to purchase private-sector insurance, i.e. part of the marketplace. Social Security and Medicare, as government-run programs, are not part of a marketplace.

And auto insurance is regulated by state laws.

Note that Romneycare in Massachusetts is nearly identical to the provisions of AHA, but is not under challenge. The Republicans keep saying that such a health insurance program is a "states" issue. Well, if it is, then what the hell are the states [[aside from Massachusetts and Hawaii) doing about it???

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

I had thought something similar. But the reality is, AHA imposes a mandate to purchase private-sector insurance, i.e. part of the marketplace. Social Security and Medicare, as government-run programs, are not part of a marketplace.

And auto insurance is regulated by state laws.

Note that Romneycare in Massachusetts is nearly identical to the provisions of AHA, but is not under challenge. The Republicans keep saying that such a health insurance program is a "states" issue. Well, if it is, then what the hell are the states [[aside from Massachusetts and Hawaii) doing about it???

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Auto Insurance may be a state law...... if the Supreme Court deems that that the government cannot penalize a person for not having health care, then the States cannot penalize for not having auto insurance.

I heard the discussion on this subject and there were several distinctions made to separate mandatory auto insurance from the requirement to buy health care. The chief distinction was that the health care mandate applies to everyone, while auto insurance only applies to those who CHOOSE to have a car and drive it, therefore it is not the same. Secondly, it is a state law, and states have the right to regulate intrastate commerce. The health care mandate is interstate, so federal restrictions may apply. Bottom line, when it comes to getting our money, we can't win.

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Originally Posted by HistoryNotHisStory

Auto Insurance may be a state law...... if the Supreme Court deems that that the government cannot penalize a person for not having health care, then the States cannot penalize for not having auto insurance.

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Isn't auto liability insurance only required to drive on public roads? The government in that case is not really forcing anyone to buy the insurance, they have the choice to either do so or not drive on the roadways. Since the ability to drive is not a constitutional right I don't see how that would be affected by this ruling.

GP, I mostly agree. Vermont was/is trying to have it's own single payer health care plan more like a Canadian provincial health care plan but the Obamacare people stepped in and required that any such Vermont plan had to include Obamacare as a starting point for their own plan. That was my understanding but this article says vermont is trying to opt out of Obamacare.
http://www.democraticunderground.com...ess=439x496528

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Reporter: Where, specifically, does the Constitution grant Congress the authority to enact an individual health insurance mandate?
Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi: Are you serious? Are you serious? [Oct. 22, 2009 audio]

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Ms. Pelosi never answered the reporter's question and apparently never asked it of herself or her colleagues prior to their passage of the monumental "Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act". As the former Speaker blithely assured us prior to its passage, "We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it."

Since the Democrat-controlled 111th Congress passed this Act without reading all of its 2,700 pages and without fully knowing what was in it and with complete disregard as to its constitutionality, it's now left to the US Supreme Court to show that this is indeed a serious question and to provide the answer.

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Originally Posted by HistoryNotHisStory

If the Supreme Court upholds ObamaCare, then People who cannot afford Healthcare shall receive it.

If the Supreme Court decides against ObamaCare and deem it illegal, then Social Security Insurance and Medicare is now illegal. The State of Michigan can no longer mandate that every vehicle owner maintain car insurance. I will be the first to go to court to get my refund on 30 years of payment to Social Security.

So regardless, the Republicans sending this bill to Supreme Court is a win-win situation for all.

Bye Bye mandatory Social Security tax, Medicare Tax, and Car insurance laws.

I LOVE IT!

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This is simply not true.

The constitutionality of Social Security was decided by the SupCt in 1937 [[and Medicare would follow the same scenario). It was held constitutional, in part, because the funding is a tax related to income, pursuant to the 16th amendment. Obamacare funding is a fine or penalty for refusing to purchase insurance, a power that the Fed govt seemingly created on its own. The mandate to purchase something in the marketplace will also likely be found beyond the scope of federal constitutional power. Whether or not the remainder of the law can stand if funding and purchase mandate is found constitutional is an open issue.

The mandate to purchase auto insurance comes out of state law [[as gaz points out, it's intrastate commerce, with interstate commerce regulation belonging to the Feds). The Federal govt could not do this because it is beyond the scope of limited [[supposedly) powers granted to them by the constitution. States can do it because they are bound by their own constitutions [[unless a state constitution contradicts a right granted to the federal govt or to individuals under the Fed constitution). The 10th amendment still exists but, apparently, Congress prefers not to believe it has any importance or that federal power should be limited.

If Obamacare is found constitutional, likely nothing would then prevent the Feds from requiring auto, or any other type of, insurance deemed to affect many Americans. In fact, depending on the strength of the opinion, there may be arguments that the Feds could pretty much require other purchases and behaviors. I do not favor giving the Feds such broad powers.

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Originally Posted by Mikeg

Ms. Pelosi never answered the reporter's question and apparently never asked it of herself or her colleagues prior to their passage of the monumental "Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act". As the former Speaker blithely assured us prior to its passage, "We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it."

Since the Democrat-controlled 111th Congress passed this Act without reading all of its 2,700 pages and without fully knowing what was in it and with complete disregard as to its constitutionality, it's now left to the US Supreme Court to show that this is indeed a serious question and to provide the answer.

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The Congress has no standing to determine whether or not a law is Constitutional. That's why we have a Judicial Branch. But as a Constitutional scholar, you knew that.

Regardless, the provisions in the AHA were palatable to Republicans as recently as three years ago. It was only since January 20, 2009 that they began to oppose an individual mandate. An idea, mind you, that was cooked up by that well-known Socialist Nixon, and perfected by the left-wing Heritage Institute in the 1980s. :rolleyes:

And now the waffling whiners on the far-right want to preserve their FREEDOM FROM RESPONSIBILITY by exploiting the most politicized Supreme Court in history. Congratulations on politicizing not only a major economic issue, but the lives of every single one of your constituents.

Seems like the only "freedom" the GOP wants us to have is the freedom to be sick, broke, and stupid.

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Originally Posted by jiminnm

If Obamacare is found constitutional, likely nothing would then prevent the Feds from requiring auto, or any other type of, insurance deemed to affect many Americans. In fact, depending on the strength of the opinion, there may be arguments that the Feds could pretty much require other purchases and behaviors. I do not favor giving the Feds such broad powers.

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Here's where I have a problem with the Supreme Court. This "limiting principle" is something the Supreme Court is supposed to find through the process of judicial interpretation, yes? Why are they demanding that the Government provide this? Is there anything in the Constitution that says the Congress CANNOT pass such a law?

Our government is designed as divided into three distinct branches, and a federalist system of national and state governments. THAT is the limiting principle. Not some stupid, selfish ideological bent designed to keep us all in the 18th Century.

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Originally Posted by jiminnm

If Obamacare is found constitutional, likely nothing would then prevent the Feds from requiring auto, or any other type of, insurance deemed to affect many Americans. In fact, depending on the strength of the opinion, there may be arguments that the Feds could pretty much require other purchases and behaviors. I do not favor giving the Feds such broad powers.

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The limiting principle as presented by Solicitor General Donald Verrilli was this:

The market for health insurance is inseparable from the market for health care, those who choose not to buy health insurance will at some point require health care [[most likely at the ER) and the cost is borne by "the people" in the form of higher premiums. I think that is a very good argument.

I agree with GP that the burden of deciding a limiting principle should be the SC as they decide these cases on a case by case basis, rather than putting that burden on the legislative body.

It depends on your perspective on the Constitution and the role you think the federal govt should play in our governance.

I view the Constitution itself as the limiting document. That is, it was written to limit the powers of the federal govt to those areas where specific powers were specifically granted to the Feds and remaining governmental power was left to the states [[so long as individual rights protected by the US Constitution were not violated). The Fed executive and legislative branches have the power to act within their prescribed constitutional limits. Thus, I think both the exec and leg branches have a duty to act constitutionally, and the SupCt is the final arbiter of whether or not they did so.

I do not ascribe to the theory that all govt power is constitutional unless it is expressly prohibited. I think that constitutional provisions should be applied positively - i.e., did the govt act pursuant to a granted power? The premise behind our country's formation was that all governing powers inherently belong to the people, but the people were willing to grant powers to federal and state governments where it made sense to do so. We've argued about what that means for 235 years, but it still strikes me as a sound principle.

The behavior of Justice Scalia during the arguments was appalling. Its one thing to be a conservative justice and to know that the person will most likely vote to repeal the individual mandate if not the law, but to tip your hand like he did with his flippant comments make you think he won't even give the case a fair hearing, which is what I thought justices were suppose to do.


The comparision to buying broccoli and the mentioned of cornhusker kickback[[ a GOP term thats not even part of the Affordable Care Act) makes one think that he should be like Justice Thomas and not say anything [[as usual).


As least Thomas believes in the old Mark Twain quote " Its better to keep your mouth closed and let people think your a fool rather than to open it and remove all doubt."

People are still arguing over healthcare? This country is weird.

I've posted on the proposed Obama care initiatives before. Just to keep it simple: Just 'where' is the money coming from for this plan? Especially with the existing federal Medicare and Medicaid pending bankruptsy?

If health care costs can really be brought under control instead of continually spiralling upward faster than the economy can keep up, then the cost of the program will start to come into better focus. After all, we have unlimited funding to spend killing our young folks and the young folks in other countries. We ought to be able to figure out how to keep the ones we have left reasonably healthy.

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Originally Posted by Zacha341

I've posted on the proposed Obama care initiatives before. Just to keep it simple: Just 'where' is the money coming from for this plan? Especially with the existing federal Medicare and Medicaid pending bankruptsy?

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The simple answer from wikipedia

Broaden Medicare tax base for high-income taxpayers: $210.2 billion
Annual fee on health insurance providers: $60 billion
40% excise tax on health coverage in excess of $10,200/$27,500: $32 billion
Impose annual fee on manufacturers and importers of branded drugs: $27 billion
Impose 2.3% excise tax on manufacturers and importers of certain medical devices: $20 billion
Raise 7.5% Adjusted Gross Income floor on medical expenses deduction to 10%: $15.2 billion
Limit contributions to flexible spending arrangements in cafeteria plans to $2,500: $13 billion All other revenue sources: $14.9 billion

I think one needs to look at this more than just the cost. You have a choice of not doing anything, doing Obamacare or some other watered down health care plan, or single payer plan.

Keeping things as they are is not financially substainable plus we aren't getting the health care outcomes a first world nation should be getting.

single payer, while my personal choice is not politically feasible.

So we are left with Obamacare, which is essentially tinkering with a broken system to or to use another example, trying to pound the round pegs into the square holes of health care.

Cost while important takes a back seat when you get an health issue thats expensive but you must take care of it or die.

Obama's April Second Constitutional Profundities:

"I'm confident that the Supreme Court will not take what would be an unprecedented, extraordinary step of overturning a law that was passed by a strong majority of a democratically elected Congress,".


"I'm confident that this will be upheld because it should be upheld"

He's a Nobel Peace Prize winner too.

The simple answer from wikipedia

Broaden Medicare tax base for high-income taxpayers: $210.2 billion The rich pay this the largest part..
Annual fee on health insurance providers: $60 billion
who pass along their new cost to policy holders
40% excise tax on health coverage in excess of $10,200/$27,500: $32 billion
Let' hope inflation doesn't push us into those categories. Until that day, this is another bill for the rich to pick up.
Impose annual fee on manufacturers and importers of branded drugs: $27 billion
Impose 2.3% excise tax on manufacturers and importers of certain medical devices: $20 billion
These last two new taxes will be passed along to patients
Raise 7.5% Adjusted Gross Income floor on medical expenses deduction to 10%: $15.2 billion
If you get really sick and have to take a medical deduction, it will be reduced by Obamacare.
Limit contributions to flexible spending arrangements in cafeteria plans to $2,500: $13 billion All other revenue sources: $14.9 billion
Weren't flexible spending arrangements developed to reduce health care costs?

I guess my thought on this, is that health care on any level is not free. On some level it has to be paid for. This current market/employer based system was getting ready to implode upon itself. It was costing more, covering fewer people, getting so-so outcomes, and incentives to save weren't there. Obama care while not the best solution health care wise, is politically, given the climate we are now in. If you can't increase the pool of people for insurance coverage, you don't get coverage for people with pre-existing conditions or children staying on their parents policy until 26, two areas that people like most about Obamacare.

In a perverse way I hope SCOTUS blows this up, since I believe if that happens it will lead the way to some form of universal health care.

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Originally Posted by Johnnny5

Isn't auto liability insurance only required to drive on public roads? The government in that case is not really forcing anyone to buy the insurance, they have the choice to either do so or not drive on the roadways. Since the ability to drive is not a constitutional right I don't see how that would be affected by this ruling.

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It is state law that all vehicle owners in Michigan has no-fault insurance.

Also, the police will ticket you and the State of Michigan will collect $450 in Drivers Responsibility Fees.

Recently, the Insurance companies were lobbying the Michigan legislature to make driving without insurance a felony.

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Originally Posted by Mikeg

Ms. Pelosi never answered the reporter's question and apparently never asked it of herself or her colleagues prior to their passage of the monumental "Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act". As the former Speaker blithely assured us prior to its passage, "We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it."

Since the Democrat-controlled 111th Congress passed this Act without reading all of its 2,700 pages and without fully knowing what was in it and with complete disregard as to its constitutionality, it's now left to the US Supreme Court to show that this is indeed a serious question and to provide the answer.

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Social Security is not in the US Constitution.
Medicare is not in the US Constitution.
The IRS is not in the US Constitution.
The Federal Reserve is not in the US Constitution.

However, I am forced to pay taxes on Medicare and Social Security, give my money to the IRS and have the Federal Reserve Board [[ a non-government body) regulate my money with the world's biggest ponzi scheme.

That's the argument.

If the Health Care Bill is unconstitutional then Social Security, Medicare, and the Federal Reserve unconstitutional.

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Originally Posted by jiminnm

This is simply not true.

The constitutionality of Social Security was decided by the SupCt in 1937 [[and Medicare would follow the same scenario). It was held constitutional, in part, because the funding is a tax related to income, pursuant to the 16th amendment. Obamacare funding is a fine or penalty for refusing to purchase insurance, a power that the Fed govt seemingly created on its own. The mandate to purchase something in the marketplace will also likely be found beyond the scope of federal constitutional power. Whether or not the remainder of the law can stand if funding and purchase mandate is found constitutional is an open issue.

The mandate to purchase auto insurance comes out of state law [[as gaz points out, it's intrastate commerce, with interstate commerce regulation belonging to the Feds). The Federal govt could not do this because it is beyond the scope of limited [[supposedly) powers granted to them by the constitution. States can do it because they are bound by their own constitutions [[unless a state constitution contradicts a right granted to the federal govt or to individuals under the Fed constitution). The 10th amendment still exists but, apparently, Congress prefers not to believe it has any importance or that federal power should be limited.

If Obamacare is found constitutional, likely nothing would then prevent the Feds from requiring auto, or any other type of, insurance deemed to affect many Americans. In fact, depending on the strength of the opinion, there may be arguments that the Feds could pretty much require other purchases and behaviors. I do not favor giving the Feds such broad powers.

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Your statements validate my argument. If they find it unconstitutional then the Supreme Court ruling of 1937 will be reversed. There is no gray area in the constitutionalism of a national health care plan or Social Security Tax and Medicare Tax. It is one and the same.

If the Supreme Court strikes down the National Health Care Law, the Lawyers from the extreme right and left will attack the courts to revoke Social Security Taxes.

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Originally Posted by jiminnm

I do not ascribe to the theory that all govt power is constitutional unless it is expressly prohibited. I think that constitutional provisions should be applied positively - i.e., did the govt act pursuant to a granted power? The premise behind our country's formation was that all governing powers inherently belong to the people, but the people were willing to grant powers to federal and state governments where it made sense to do so. We've argued about what that means for 235 years, but it still strikes me as a sound principle.

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It's not a theory...

If the constitution does not not express certain scenarios then it is allowed or permitted.

For example, our state laws permits the carry of concealed weapons with a permit. However, it does not state anything about openly carrying a weapon. Therefore, Michigan citizens has a right to carry a weapon openly.

Our Founding Fathers saw that certain issues will arise. This is why the constitution allocate for Amendment. If you don't like it, then change the Amend the Constitution.

Otherwise deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Zacha341

I've posted on the proposed Obama care initiatives before. Just to keep it simple: Just 'where' is the money coming from for this plan? Especially with the existing federal Medicare and Medicaid pending bankruptsy?

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The real question is what is Money?

Who defined the US Monetary System and the World monetary system.

Read Modern Money Mechanics from Federal Reserve Board [[Banking Cartel) and realize that we are all a part of one big Ponzi Scheme.

Note that the US Dollar = Debt. Read the notation on your dollar bill. " This note is legal tender for all debts public and private."