Imagine That... Concerns over BRT downtown stops, off-Woodward loop

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Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

would a regional sales tax of 1 point work?

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A regional sales tax is absolutely the way to do it - tried and true method, used in many other regions, and causes very little pain. Your $8.99 t-shirt costs you $9.62 instead of $9.53.

Many people think this will require a constitutional amendment; though that is not entirely clear, an amendment would certainly allow it to happen without the legality of it coming into question. Then the RTA would be in a position, two Novembers hence, to ask the public to support upgrades [[which they would have to specify and sell).

The question is, how to get this done. The amendment, by the way, would only be to allow regions to have a regional sales tax by public referendum. It would not in fact impose any tax; yet it will face huge and daunting opposition.

Two thoughts:

1. Forget all the technology battles... bus, rail, BRT definitions, LRT definitions, etc. Only two facts matter so far as I can tell.

• Does it have dedicate right-of-way? Either fully grade separated track, or exclusive, preferably physically separated lanes for the full length?
• Does it come every 12 mins or better during all operating hours [[5 vehicles per hour)?

If no to either of the above, it's not rapid transit and not worth building for all the reasons outlined in this thread. Won't be fast, won't attract big ridership, and will be pointed to as an example of "failed public transit" a la the People Mover. Invest the money in adding capacity and reliability to local bus routes, which this would basically be at that point anyway.

2. The fact that despite rails currently being put into the ground and $140 million spent to move rail vehicles up and down Woodward, the region is planning to build an alternative bus service... it boggles the mind. Forget Hall Road, forget going to Pontiac, build curbs along the outside lane of Woodward from the Amtrak station to Grand Circus in order to create separate lanes for M-1 along the first 3 miles, and then plow any remaining money into extending it fully grade separated, center-running, to Royal Oak or however far they can get.

Yes, I know the above isn't on the table. But that's what should be done if you really want the first leg foundation of a rapid transit system.

Since the above is impossible, I'll settle for some outspoken political leadership on the issue from the mayor, governor, or anyone else, calling for no system without dedicated ROW.

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Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Absolutely. Transit is an essential public service. And every large metropolitan area in the country [[save Southeast Michigan) has a dedicated source of funding.
I don't know enough about law or finance to comment on how a dedicated funding mechanism could be established in Michigan. But it has to be done if the region is going to have a fully-functioning economy. State support would be helpful too, although I understand it would take a constitutional amendment to increase the amount of state funding for transit.

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How about a statewide tax on car stereo systems? It will be $600 a year for any car with more than som many watts of speaker output.

The new RTA's Citizen's Advisory Committee came out against a John R/Cass alignment south of Grand Boulevard earlier this week: http://rtacac.org/lparecommendation.doc

I believe the Woodward Avenue Action Association and other groups have, as well.

There's still time to get as much of the "rapid" in the R of BRT as we can.

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Originally Posted by Eber Brock Ward

The new RTA's Citizen's Advisory Committee came out against a John R/Cass alignment south of Grand Boulevard earlier this week: http://rtacac.org/lparecommendation.doc

I believe the Woodward Avenue Action Association and other groups have, as well.

There's still time to get as much of the "rapid" in the R of BRT as we can.

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This type of debate amongst the stakeholders is a good sign. It is normal, and to be expected. Great that Public Transportation is something to be discussed in Detroit. I encourage the debate and the discussion.

That said, I think the RTA CAC is wrong. If you do the streetcars [[if you will) on Woodward, the obvious solution is to move the transit over to Cass & John R. Leave Woodward as the tourist destination -- and let the transit run somewhere else. Cass & John R is where the riders are anyway. Why does the CAC think its bad to serve those streets as main corridors? Oh well, nice that they care and are debating how to do transit -- not whether to do transit.

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Originally Posted by professorscott

A regional sales tax is absolutely the way to do it - tried and true method, used in many other regions, and causes very little pain. Your $8.99 t-shirt costs you $9.62 instead of $9.53.

Many people think this will require a constitutional amendment; though that is not entirely clear, an amendment would certainly allow it to happen without the legality of it coming into question. Then the RTA would be in a position, two Novembers hence, to ask the public to support upgrades [[which they would have to specify and sell).

The question is, how to get this done. The amendment, by the way, would only be to allow regions to have a regional sales tax by public referendum. It would not in fact impose any tax; yet it will face huge and daunting opposition.

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I will vote for a 1 point sales tax absolutely no problem.

Infrastructure improvements that happen right here in greater Detroit that have federal funds thrown in is a no brainier. It's like the free money a employer matches in a 401k, only the stupid say I don't want it.

Does anyone know how much that 1 cent increase is sale tax [[regional) would raise annually?

Answered my own question. From 2011 the tri-county 1 point sales tax would raise $486,893,166.00 a year.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...80185997,d.cGE

If anybody wants evidence of how "Bus Rapid Transit" works in Michigan, look at the shining success they've had in Grand Rapids.

Oh, wait ...

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...-the-way-to-go

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

If anybody wants evidence of how "Bus Rapid Transit" works in Michigan, look at the shining success they've had in Grand Rapids.

Oh, wait ...

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...-the-way-to-go

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You're not using any logic here [[your rule appears to be "the relative success of a transit system will be predicated on the previous success of any such transit system within the same state")

But if that's your chosen business rule, good luck with the trolley, as the previous trolley was a really ragin' success. The only other urban rail system in the state is running at about 20% of ridership projections, so there's another urban transit home-run.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

You're not using any logic here [[your rule appears to be "the relative success of a transit system will be predicated on the previous success of any such transit system within the same state")

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Oh, yeah, right, pal. If I used any other city outside the state, you'd start in with your "apples vs. oranges" routine. Bugger off, Mr. Spock.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

But if that's your chosen business rule, good luck with the trolley, as the previous trolley was a really ragin' success. The only other urban rail system in the state is running at about 20% of ridership projections, so there's another urban transit home-run.

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You are a fuckin' laugh riot, bub. Calling the people mover an urban rail system is like calling the train that serves DFW airport an urban rail system.

Again, I've never seen such a tireless defender of the status quo of, like, 20 years ago as you, Ham. How are things back in 1994, by the way? I'm sure you're rockin' some kickass Jams. :)

I don't know if you would call what I'm about to propose BRT, but here's my idea. From Pontiac to Six Mile along Woodward you have medians. Use the medians for BRT stations. Use the lane next to the medians as BRT lanes, where cars use the lane only to make a Michigan left. Give the busses the ability to change traffic signals, and have them run every 10 minutes during rush hour.

In Highland Park and the rest of Woodward in Detroit, have the stations in the center left-turn lanes on raised platforms with guard rails. Cars and BRT busses would share the dedicated lane down to Grand Boulevard, except cars would have to clear the lane at traffic signal stops or face fines for not moving out of the way [[the BRT bus can snap a picture of the license plate of the violating vehicle and a ticket could be issued by mail). South of Grand Boulevard the dedicated lane would be just for the BRT busses. Cars could only enter the lane to make lefts in the left turn lane at designated locations. That's it. My proposal would also fit light rail.

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Originally Posted by royce

I don't know if you would call what I'm about to propose BRT, but here's my idea. From Pontiac to Six Mile along Woodward you have medians. Use the medians for BRT stations. Use the lane next to the medians as BRT lanes, where cars use the lane only to make a Michigan left. Give the busses the ability to change traffic signals, and have them run every 10 minutes during rush hour.

In Highland Park and the rest of Woodward in Detroit, have the stations in the center left-turn lanes on raised platforms with guard rails. Cars and BRT busses would share the dedicated lane down to Grand Boulevard, except cars would have to clear the lane at traffic signal stops or face fines for not moving out of the way [[the BRT bus can snap a picture of the license plate of the violating vehicle and a ticket could be issued by mail). South of Grand Boulevard the dedicated lane would be just for the BRT busses. Cars could only enter the lane to make lefts in the left turn lane at designated locations. That's it. My proposal would also fit light rail.

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This just has "collision" written all over it. If the transit vehicle has to slam on the brakes every time some jackass cuts it off to make a left turn, then it's not going to be a very "rapid" transit system. Way too many conflict points to allow efficient operation--is it a dedicated transit lane, or is it not?

Sadly, for $5.5 million a mile, I wouldn't get your hopes up with too many amenities. For that kind of coin, you'll be lucky if the RTA is able to buy low-floor articulated buses with doors on both sides, and post a metal sign at each stop. I guess the high-tech paint job is going to make the buses more rapider? :rolleyes:

ghettopalmetto, then how would cars make left turns? And remember, I'm not saying the cars are making lefts in the lane that the BRT bus travels. The cars are only moving into that lane to get to the left turn lane. No different from merging left in regular traffic. A BRT bus will not be travelling that fast that it couldn't slow down if a car enters the lane it is travelling in. These lanes won't be for high-speed vehicles. The idea of the "semi" dedicated lane is that for the most part there won't be cars in it slowing down the BRT bus or LRT. However, the BRT bus should be able to make good time because of less congestion in the "semi" dedicated lane.

I don't see how any type of dedicated lane can be made for BRT or LRT without cars crossing it at some point. Cars have to make lefts at some point and there are only a few streets that cross Woodward where you can do a left by travelling along an eastbound/westbound street: Mack, Warren, Grand Boulevard, Davison, 8 Mile, and I-696. Anybody driving a car and trying to get to the other side of Woodward are going to be pissed if they can't make a simple left at a reasonable distance and location. Is there something about dedicated lanes that I'm missing, ghettopalmetto?

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Originally Posted by royce

I don't see how any type of dedicated lane can be made for BRT or LRT without cars crossing it at some point.

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This is really easy to handle. For one recent example look at the US 1 BRT in Alexandria, VA. The buses run in separated lanes in the center; cars can make left turns at several intersections with protected left-turn signals [[that is, when the left-turn light is red, it's solid red not blinking red) and there is a bus signal for the buses to go through when safe; equipment on the buses turns the signal green for the bus when necessary.

None of what is proposed here is new or technically difficult. It just costs money to do it correctly.

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Originally Posted by professorscott

This is really easy to handle. For one recent example look at the US 1 BRT in Alexandria, VA. The buses run in separated lanes in the center; cars can make left turns at several intersections with protected left-turn signals [[that is, when the left-turn light is red, it's solid red not blinking red) and there is a bus signal for the buses to go through when safe; equipment on the buses turns the signal green for the bus when necessary.

None of what is proposed here is new or technically difficult. It just costs money to do it correctly.

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Sooner or later a car or bus is going to disregard those signals. And separated lanes are expensive, and assume that you have additional right of way to use.