Ballparks and driving up housing cost- Yes...Comerica Park.

This is an interesting statistic "according" to the Atlantic magazine. Apparently Comerica Park has "supposedly" contributed to the rise in real estate prices in Downtown Detroit more than Yankee Stadium and Wrigley Field. Of course Comerica Park is Downtown and the other two ballparks are in traditional working class neighborhoods in those cities.


I've always thought that Comerica Park and other big projects should have been spread out all over the city [[ as anchor businesses) in more depressed areas to help boost the economy and real estate prices in those areas. I knew Illich wouldn't do so because it wouldn't make sense for him, being that he already owned much of the land Downtown.


Was this a good or bad idea to put Comerica Park in the Downtown area? We could have stimulated other parts of the city and and at some point Downtown probably would have survived on it's own because of the geographic location and other cultural amenities that it has. Has this caused Detroit to be a one dimensional city [[everything in one area)? Has this caused Downtown Detroit's property values to top out before we've gained enough population to sustain the number of businesses needed to make Downtown fully thrive?


Just curious of others thoughts...


http://www.theatlanticcities.com/hou...ng-costs/5124/

Comerica Park was built in a depressed area. The fact there was enough land to build a baseball and football stadium downtown should tell you how depressed the area was.

When you are raising the prices from zero, it is all upside.

I think the area on the other side of Trumbull is where they should have built the new Tigers ballpark, plus the skyline view could have still been there.

As for Ford Field, I have no idea where that should have been built but I don't like downtown stadiums. The Lions could have probably got a chunk of land in an outer neighborhood and built there and then redeveloped the area around wherever that would have been built.

COL What would you propose to tear down? Nemos? Brooks? Other well known/historic businesses?

Comerica Park was put where it was because the Ilitch Family owned or had ties with those that owned the land where the park now stands. It don't hurt that it is right out Mike's office window either.

That article is so stupid it should have been published by Forbes. If it was a high school paper you'd get an F for not looking at any of the hundreds of other factors before drawing simple conclusions.

Illwill... are you old enough to remember the effect that Tiger Stadium had on the Corktown area?

It wasn't good. It was horrible in fact. Houses used to be torn down so that the land could be converted to weed filled parking... every single lots would genereate income on game days. There was never any incentive to rebuild anything on those empty lots. Huge gaps of empty lots were found throughout Corktown... just to generate landowners revenue.

It has only been since the demise of Tiger Stadium that Corktown has been rehealing itself with infill housing.

If Tigers would have built anywhere except downtown... the same thing would have happened. It's bad enough that some downtown buildings came down that were really not needed for Baseball... such as the tall Wolverine Hotel behind Chelios Chili. And the Ilitch monopoly on empty land has prevented anything else from being built around Comerica Park.

In other cities with very high land prices, such as Boston, Chicago, and elsewhere... the incentive is to keep the housing since it generated more income, than in Detroit. So even comparing Detroit with many of those other cities is apples and oranges...

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Originally Posted by Gistok

Illwill... are you old enough to remember the effect that Tiger Stadium had on the Corktown area?

It wasn't good. It was horrible in fact. Houses used to be torn down so that the land could be converted to weed filled parking... every single lots would genereate income on game days. There was never any incentive to rebuild anything on those empty lots. Huge gaps of empty lots were found throughout Corktown... just to generate landowners revenue.
...snip...

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There were also local residents selling a few spaces on a nicely paved yard and making a little extra money. I know that area from that time. It was not horrible. It was still better than most of Detroit -- and Tiger Stadium was a positive effect overall IMO. I'm sure you're example of houses getting torn down was true. But it was the exception.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

There were also local residents selling a few spaces on a nicely paved yard and making a little extra money. I know that area from that time. It was not horrible. It was still better than most of Detroit -- and Tiger Stadium was a positive effect overall IMO. I'm sure you're example of houses getting torn down was true. But it was the exception.

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Running a parking lot was more lucrative and had a lot less aggravation than running a skid row flop house.

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Originally Posted by Gistok

remember the effect that Tiger Stadium had on the Corktown area?

It wasn't good. It was horrible in fact. Houses used to be torn down so that the land could be converted to weed filled parking... every single lots would genereate income on game days. There was never any incentive to rebuild anything on those empty lots. Huge gaps of empty lots were found throughout Corktown... just to generate landowners revenue.

It has only been since the demise of Tiger Stadium that Corktown has been rehealing itself with infill housing.

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Senility must be setting in, because I remember a totally different Corktown around Tiger Stadium then the picture you paint. Houses WERE torn down, but they were houses on their last legs. I don't recall any quality housing being torn down for the sake of creating parking lots. That area had been "iffy" since the City Fathers decided to move the Chinese years ago. What I do recall is enterprising locals having a chance @ making a few $'s off of Tiger games. It was worth getting to a game early, just to walk around and check out the sidewalk vendors. People were selling hats, shirts, peanuts, souvenirs, etc. There were also stores and bars along MI Ave., doing the same, also making $. People met, ate, drank, bought a stupid hat and a bag of peanuts, and went to the game. All that's changed now. Yeah some of it is still around, but not like it was. Comerica Park, like Joe Louis arena, has turned into an Ilitch money making enterprise, with all the regulations and what not. I'm surprised the few people that ask for spare change around there haven't been hauled off.

First of all, they tore Tiger Stadium down which probably was there longer than any of those bars along Michigan Avenue. So tearing the blocks down between Trumbull and downtown wouldn't have made any difference. They had to tear buildings down to build Comerica too so it's either one area or the other.

As far as the vacant lots that surround the stadium the same thing could be said for many areas around Comerica Park. Out of all the times I've been in Detroit nothing has ever been built on these lots nor have I seen anything other than a new arena for the RedWings planned to be built on any of those lots. Look at the area to the north of the Fox Theater on the other side of the expressway, it has numerous blocks that are just concrete or dirt lots, same as in the area around the old Tiger Stadium so really it's the same thing just in a different location.

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Originally Posted by Gistok

In other cities with very high land prices, such as Boston, Chicago, and elsewhere... the incentive is to keep the housing since it generated more income, than in Detroit. So even comparing Detroit with many of those other cities is apples and oranges...

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Are you talking about around the ballpark? If so then the area around Comiskey has no housing around it except for a senior housing high rise and a CHA housing project both of which are south of the ballpark. The area around Comiskey is nothing but a bunch of parking lots for at least a block in all directions from the ballpark. There is a train viaduct and a 14 lane expressway with the CTA red line running in the middle of it. So the area around Comiskey isn't too fan friendly. Now go on up to Wrigley Field and it's all yuppie along with some bars and a street scene, you can get that around Comiskey you just have to walk into Bridgeport.

I don't know what the Tiger Stadium area was like when the Tigers played there but I've been past it since it's been demolished and the area seems very dead and pretty wide open, it doesn't feel like an urban neighborhood at all. Now if you go across Michigan Avenue from the ballpark I noticed some real nice rowhouses but those were only for a few blocks.

Getting off topic a little but in the same part of town, I drove to Detroit to see the Hawks play the Wings recently and noticed that the train station has some new windows. Is this some kind of joke or something? Because it only had two new windows and they were towards the top of the building. I have always wondered when that building is going to meet it's date with the wrecking ball, it looks like it's in pretty rough shape.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Senility must be setting in, because I remember a totally different Corktown around Tiger Stadium then the picture you paint. Houses WERE torn down, but they were houses on their last legs. I don't recall any quality housing being torn down for the sake of creating parking lots. That area had been "iffy" since the City Fathers decided to move the Chinese years ago. What I do recall is enterprising locals having a chance @ making a few $'s off of Tiger games. It was worth getting to a game early, just to walk around and check out the sidewalk vendors. People were selling hats, shirts, peanuts, souvenirs, etc. There were also stores and bars along MI Ave., doing the same, also making $. People met, ate, drank, bought a stupid hat and a bag of peanuts, and went to the game. All that's changed now. Yeah some of it is still around, but not like it was. Comerica Park, like Joe Louis arena, has turned into an Ilitch money making enterprise, with all the regulations and what not. I'm surprised the few people that ask for spare change around there haven't been hauled off.

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Obviously, if you just drive there and don't have to actually LIVE there, you would have a different perspective. What I remember are "weed choked" lots that were never maintained. But I guess if all you do is drive in and back home on game day... ate and drank [[or took a piss) and [[as was discussed on another thread) left your litter in the neighborhood... it must be pretty cool huh?

Maybe if you asked the residents who actually lived there what they thought, you might be surprised that it's different than your vision of paradise... :eek:

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The most expensive stadium neighborhoods relative to their metros are in or near downtown areas. In contrast, stadiums in neighborhoods that are inexpensive relative to the metro area tend to be at least a few miles outside of downtown. Yankee Stadium, for instance, is in the Bronx, six miles from Grand Central Station, and in an area that’s much cheaper than the typical New York metro neighborhood. At $198 per square foot, homes near Yankee Stadium may be expensive relative to most of the country, but they’re inexpensive compared with the rest of New York.

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So basically it costs more to live in or near downtown? Umm... duh?

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Originally Posted by Gistok

Obviously, if you just drive there and don't have to actually LIVE there, you would have a different perspective. What I remember are "weed choked" lots that were never maintained. But I guess if all you do is drive in and back home on game day... ate and drank [[or took a piss) and [[as was discussed on another thread) left your litter in the neighborhood... it must be pretty cool huh?

Maybe if you asked the residents who actually lived there what they thought, you might be surprised that it's different than your vision of paradise... :eek:

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Before you get TOO carried away, NO, I did not live there, YES, I did drive in, park my car, and go partake of the "Tiger Town" experience. But being a native, No, I DID NOT piss on people's walls in public, get drunk and puke on their front lawns, or throw a 6 pack of glass bottles against the wall of Joe Louis Parking, because "This is DETROIT, MFer!!!!". Now that we're done with that, I don't care for the sterilization around Fort Comerica, nor do I like the fact that "the common man" isn't given a shot @ making a few bucks. As far as weeds go, there are inhabited houses where the yards look like hell. I think unusually abundant growth ought to be addressed by the local neighborhood asociation, maybe? From living here as long as I have, I don't think it makes much difference whether or not the lot is half empty or half full. Sidebar: before I lost my job in 95', I was on the ropes for a home purchase in Corktown. An evil corporate buy out ended that.

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Originally Posted by chicagoforlife

First of all, they tore Tiger Stadium down which probably was there longer than any of those bars along Michigan Avenue. So tearing the blocks down between Trumbull and downtown wouldn't have made any difference. They had to tear buildings down to build Comerica too so it's either one area or the other.

As far as the vacant lots that surround the stadium the same thing could be said for many areas around Comerica Park. Out of all the times I've been in Detroit nothing has ever been built on these lots nor have I seen anything other than a new arena for the RedWings planned to be built on any of those lots. Look at the area to the north of the Fox Theater on the other side of the expressway, it has numerous blocks that are just concrete or dirt lots, same as in the area around the old Tiger Stadium so really it's the same thing just in a different location.

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This section of the City actually has businesses in it that serve the local neighborhood. I don't think you know this area very well or are just insensitive to the needs. There are also some folks living here. At the time that Comerica was being built, DCL was moved, and YWCA was looking to get out of a huge building. The Wolverine was shuttered for ages. A plan was devised to move many of the existing businesses as well as their buildings. While not perfect by any means, there was nowhere near the loss to the City as what would have occurred if Tiger Stadium had done a Comiskey.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

This section of the City actually has businesses in it that serve the local neighborhood. I don't think you know this area very well or are just insensitive to the needs. There are also some folks living here. At the time that Comerica was being built, DCL was moved, and YWCA was looking to get out of a huge building. The Wolverine was shuttered for ages. A plan was devised to move many of the existing businesses as well as their buildings. While not perfect by any means, there was nowhere near the loss to the City as what would have occurred if Tiger Stadium had done a Comiskey.

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The area around Comerica? The part going towards the river is nice so is the area across Woodward for a minute until you get past Hockeytown Cafe and the Fox Theater and that other theater that is there then there's nothing to speak of, but those vacant lots are far too many for the downtown of a major city.

Comiskey is a parking lot but the area to the north of it in Armour Square is a decent neighborhood. I'm happy that Chicago has none of the stadium's downtown, the United Center is on the Westside, Solider Field is on the lakefront south of downtown, Comiskey is in an open area on the Southside and Wrigey is in a compact neighborhood on the Northside.

Plus there have been other longtime businesses to close and have their building demolished for a redevelopment. I can think of one in Detroit, the Lindell AC at Cass and Michigan is gone and that bar was a legend.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

So basically it costs more to live in or near downtown? Umm... duh?

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You see, Ilitch owns the Tigers. We hate Ilitch. Therefore, we hate the stadium. Home price increases hurts renters. Renters are working people. therefore Ilitch hurts working people.

The stadium has thus prevented a flowing of indigenous success -- and that's bad.

We had rising home prices in the suburbs that gave great wealth to many people.

I for one am glad to see that the local homeowners in the area will see some wealth redistribution via baseball.

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Originally Posted by chicagoforlife

As far as the vacant lots that surround the stadium the same thing could be said for many areas around Comerica Park. Out of all the times I've been in Detroit nothing has ever been built on these lots nor have I seen anything other than a new arena for the RedWings planned to be built on any of those lots. Look at the area to the north of the Fox Theater on the other side of the expressway, it has numerous blocks that are just concrete or dirt lots, same as in the area around the old Tiger Stadium so really it's the same thing just in a different location.

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Actually, some of these lots north of the Fox, are owned by Ilitch. Around old Tiger Stadium, the empty lots were owned & operated by individual property owners. See the photo below that shows all the Ilitch owned lots around Comerica.
http://detroit.tigers.mlb.com/det/im...parking_lg.gif

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Senility must be setting in, because I remember a totally different Corktown around Tiger Stadium then the picture you paint. Houses WERE torn down, but they were houses on their last legs. I don't recall any quality housing being torn down for the sake of creating parking lots. That area had been "iffy" since the City Fathers decided to move the Chinese years ago. What I do recall is enterprising locals having a chance @ making a few $'s off of Tiger games. It was worth getting to a game early, just to walk around and check out the sidewalk vendors. People were selling hats, shirts, peanuts, souvenirs, etc. There were also stores and bars along MI Ave., doing the same, also making $. People met, ate, drank, bought a stupid hat and a bag of peanuts, and went to the game. All that's changed now. Yeah some of it is still around, but not like it was. Comerica Park, like Joe Louis arena, has turned into an Ilitch money making enterprise, with all the regulations and what not. I'm surprised the few people that ask for spare change around there haven't been hauled off.

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Eat em' up Tigers! Eat em' up!!

Seriously, I do miss all the different vendor activity that used to set up around Tiger Stadium.

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Originally Posted by chicagoforlife

Plus there have been other longtime businesses to close and have their building demolished for a redevelopment. I can think of one in Detroit, the Lindell AC at Cass and Michigan is gone and that bar was a legend.

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Whats your point? The Lindell is not in either footprint. Bars open and close all the time. In the case of Lindell, it was taken for a centralized bus depot, not because the stadium from one site to another. There would be no way you could shoehorn a ballpark on land around the Lindell.