http://tinyurl.com/7q4d9kt
as the deadline heads closer. I guess we'll see what happens, it won't be good for services either way..
http://tinyurl.com/7q4d9kt
as the deadline heads closer. I guess we'll see what happens, it won't be good for services either way..
It's going to be over soon. The end of Black Detroit is coming and beginning of State takeover and white regionalization begins. Say hello to Delta City.
They better get moving on getting Robocop here.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...p/posts/155207
The clowncil is proposing some pretty drastic cuts all right....however, Puke is giving his Chief of Staff [[a pretty boy with dreds) a $6,000/yr. raise....explain that to me. Unbelieveable, unconceiveable, and just plain stupid. When I find the link, I'll post it, it was just on the news.
Also, the CofD is asking police/fire to take a 15% wage cut plus pay more for health care premiums. This will total 25% in concessions since 2008.
Well, they didn't even have a quorum show up today.
Does anyone care for the word, "recall"??????????
Friggin' morons. Absolute morons.
Union busting at it's finest.
This may be painful, but what really is the alternative? The money is not there to prevent cuts like this. They will happen one way or the other, whether by the Council or ultimately by an emergency financial manager.
@ Ray1936
;
They didnt have a quorum for the meeting to discuss the budget crisis plan because one was sick, three were meeting with the financial review team and one had to leave for a conference on official City business. And if they had been there, you would probably still call them "morons" because you wouldn't like the solutions that they proposed for right-sizing the budget! I, for one, am quite weary of folks bashing my elected representatives without being privy to why decisions are made. When you rely exclusively on the media for information about decisions that are being made or considered by our local representative body, you will normally be given a story that is written to highlight conflict and ignore the mundane facts and nuances that lead to those policy decisions.
Why don't you just go straight to the source? My City Council members all have phones and staff; several have websites, etc. that they regularly update. They have monthly meetings in various areas around the City. The Council meetings are shown live online during the day and rebroadcast at night on Comcast and AT&T Uverse. If you want financial information, I know that the Auditor General puts all of his reports online and I think the City Council's Fiscal Analyst does the same. READ, HEAR AND SEE FOR YOURSELF. STOP RELYING ON "JOURNALISTS" WHO ARE TAUGHT IN JOURNALISM SCHOOL THAT A STORY IS NOT A STORY WITHOUT CONFLICT.
I know you addressed the post to Ray1936 but I feel the need to respond.
Right sizing the budget?? How can you right size the budget and hand out raises when you're asking everyone else to take pay cut and make concessions with their health care? Idiots and hypocrites are what they are and Ray is right.
So sorry you are feeling weary of folks bashing YOUR elected representatives, you put them in office, you are to blame for what's happening in Detroit today. Voting a criminal in as Mayor, voting a council member in because of name recognition, you have been derelict in your duties.
You make it sound so business like when in fact it's next to impossible to get in touch with any of the council members either by email, phone or in person. They are incommunicato because they feel their positions warrant a superior attitude. When Gary Brown spouts off about laying off police officers it is so obvious he has a vendetta against the police force in general...he's a turncoat. He got a raise for a member of his staff, Pugh got a raise [[6K) for his pretty boy Chief of Staff, Brenda Jones got a raise for a member of her staff. What the hell is going on with their minds. How can they justify giving raises out to people when the City is in such dire straits?
I have been retired from the City of Detroit for almost 20 years and I can honestly tell you that there has not been one time that I have called down to the CAY for information regarding my pension or my benefits that I've ever received a call back. Either the lines are all busy, the voice mails are all full, or no one answers the phone...period.
You speak of conflict....well, with all due respect, there is plenty of conflict and it's not all because of journalist. It's very obvious what's going on down there when the council members are handing out raises to their favorites and in the same breath, asking police/fire personal to take another wage concession and to pay more for their health care. There has not been a raise since 2008, they are being asked to take a total of 25% concession since then. That's why there is conflict.
Are you telling me that no City workers have gotten promotions since 2008, Buy American?! Because that's why Pugh's new Chief of Staff got a raise. I'm not going to try to defend every decision that each individual Council member makes, but the people that I've elected to represent me deserve to be supported by the folks who put them there. If you don't live here, didn't vote for them, don't bother to call them, etc. then go bash your own elected body and leave mine alone.
And why DID you "feel the need to respond", Buy American? If you don't live here, why all the angst?
I hope that Charles Pugh is not planning to give his aide a raise so that he[[Pugh) could get a kick back. I hope that the young man doesn't make $76,000 a year and give Mr Pugh some of that money back under the table.
http://tinyurl.com/89umj2z
update from detroit news--
I am telling you that since 2008 there have been no raises to the firefighters/police officers that I know of. In 2008 they took a 10% pay cut, now the City is asking for even more. I am telling you that since this is so, why would Charles Puke, give this guy $6,000 on top of what he makes already, which is substantial. I understand your support, but your head is buried in the sand if you think that YOUR elected officials are out there looking out for you and your best interest, because that's not true. Just look at Puke, he can't handle his own finances and he's handing out money like Detroit is his personal ATM. Kenyatta is or was in foreclosure, and maybe a couple more of YOUR elected officials are having problems financially. Granted, we all have problems with our finances these days, but when you have some elected officials who you trust to do the right thing for YOUR city [[which I never could understand why, all of a sudden, Detroit became a private entity that no one who lives outside the boundries could even speak of). I don't want to say that I did my time in Detroit because that's not how I felt at the time [[except the last few years when my neighborhood became so dangerous to live in)...I loved Detroit...but it has changed, and you know it.
I felt the need to respond just like you felt the need to respond to Ray, you felt he was wrong and I felt you were wrong. The City of Detroit still signs my checks for my pension, so I have every right to feel angry about what goes on there. I feel the same way when people buy foreign automobiles while GM has a big logo on the RenCen and Chrysler has two huge plants on Jefferson....who supports Detroit?
If the council were any kind of real leaders they would be taking pay cuts themselves, eliminating ridiculous perks like free cars, and cutting back on their bloated administrative staff.
But it's easier to cut pay of cops and firemen who actually have important jobs in the city.
This is like watching a husband and wife bicker over whether they should give up their premium cable while their house is being foreclosed on and their car is repossessed. I get that it looks bad to have people getting raises or Councilmembers having perks like cars while the city's going down the tubes. But none of that really matters now and even if Charles Pugh gave up his entire salary and all the perks, the city is still going to be facing bankruptcy or an EFM and there are still going to be massive layoffs or massive rollbacks in pay and benefits for Detroit police and fire. But if you want to pretend that cutting the cable will save your home and car, continue to indulge yourself in that fantasy.
I'm not going to respond to the post of mam2009 other than to say it is refreshing to see him/her give support to city government. I don't think it's deserved, but positive outlooks are needed. I do tire of all the 'doom and gloom' views of the CofD, truthful as they may be.
1. I don't live in the city of Detroit, but as Detroit goes, so goes the state. When Detroit fails, it pulls the surrounding communities with it; that's why I care. Plus of course, I love Detroit and don't like to see it fail.
2. You seem to be more upset at someone "bashing" your elected body than you do at the poor job your elected body has done. Do you not see the mess that Detroit is and do you not think that the elected body [[over the years, not just the current crop) is at least partially responsible? Your idea that elected officials deserve your support is odd; they are there to serve and support you, not the other way around.
The clowncil is of the opinion that they own Detroit and that any outsider [[Lansing or a suburb) doesn't have a "right" to come in and take over. It's all about race [[especially when you listen to JoAnn Watson) talk about "giving up her seat on the bus"..."we want to manage our own business"...she claims she was a target of a smear campaign when it was made public that she only paid $68/yr. in taxes on her home. "whatever I was billed, I paid" was her reply, knowing all along that she was screwing HER city out of taxes. "we will not give up the city", code word "we".
The clowncil has the perks that should be eliminated and they constantly refuse and keep asking the general city employees, police/fire, to give up their wages and their health care. Something is wrong with this picture. Detroit isn't owned by the clowncil, Detroit isn't owned by a group, everyone in Michigan has a stake in what happens there.
This council needs to lead by example and they are not doing that.
^^^^As I said, the council needs to lead by example.
BuyAmerican. You seem very adamant in your opions of the council and their ability to balance the budget and save the city, if only they'd make some cuts.
Maybe you should petitioning for givebacks by the retirees. Take a whack out of the pension and health care costs. You know, the shared sacrifice that it appears you are advocating.
Its too late how the Detroit City Council can fix on their severe financial problems. They are 20 billion dollars in the hole. They will run out of cash by April 1st and a hostile takeover for Snyder, the nerd's Emergency Manager will close the coffin on Detroit's self government since 1701.
The angst is because his precious pension may be impacted. He could not care less about the people living in the city of Detroit, just his pension and the pay of Firefighters and Police Officers.
If it came to helping a current resident or one penny of his pension his choice would be very, very obvious.
Yet you ignore what the state did to DPS when they tookover. The district went from financially stable and having poor grades to worse grades and hundreds of millions in debt. So you'll have to fogive some of us that are a little concerned about the integrity of the state running anything.
Add in that the city council can not negate the city charter and will of the populace [[which I often disagree with) and it is akin to choosing who will kick your ass or having someone kick your ass then go after your family and home with no ramifications to them.
At least if an EM comes in I can laugh at you while your pension continues to dwindle. Then you'll really have a reason to be angry.
Agreed however that Watson is a fool and Council needs to lead by example.
I have never said that I wanted an EM in Detroit, I do care about my pension, wouldn't you? If you say it wouldn't matter to you then I'd say you're a liar. What angers me is people like yourself who would rather make excuses for those people sitting in their plush offices in the CAY building, behind their mahogany desk, spending taxpayer money foolishly and then turning around and asking ALL city employees to take drastic cuts while they do nothing to help the situation. Police/Fire are important to me because without those employees in Detroit, what the hell would you do? Sequester yourself in your homes with bars on the windows [[which I'm sure are already there), and hope you don't have a fire or a health emergency or have a home invasion and no one comes?
Incidentally, our pension is protected by the Federal Government and can't be touched. However, it's crooks like Monica Conyers, thug KK, and others who have put their fingers into the pot and used some of the monies for their own personal use. I also was smart and have a backup plan that I started many years ago so don't presume to know me jt1...you don't. You need to put your anger toward me to better use, like voting the right people in office next time, if there are any honest, upstanding, people with integrity left in Detroit politics.
If I had a pension it would matter to me. I think the bigger issue is that your only concern is about your pension and the PD/FD. It is clear from your posting that you have zero concern for the well being of the citizens.Quote:
I have never said that I wanted an EM in Detroit, I do care about my
pension, wouldn't you? If you say it wouldn't matter to you then I'd say you're
a liar.
WhI have never made an excuse for them or their poor performance. I am stating that the state taking over is a larger evil than the incompetence of the city. Ideally we would have competent people at the CAY. I think that ALL city employees do need to take cuts, that imclude the mayor, council, appointees, white collar, blue collar, etc. Unlike you I think that both sides of the argument [[union and non union) can fairly be villified. You paint one side as perfect and the other as horrible. Let's be honest , both have played a critical role in this debacle.Quote:
at angers me is people like yourself who would rather make excuses for those people sitting in their plush offices in the CAY building, behind their mahogany desk, spending taxpayer money foolishly and then turning around and asking ALL city employees to take drastic cuts while they do nothing to help the situation.
First, I do not have bars on my home but that just supports my point of how you view the city and residents. I believe that PD and FD are critical functions for a city to manage. I do however take exception with the fact that PD and FD have often taken an us vs. them mentality and do not adapt to make their functions more efficient and do things like protect PD officers that decide to all call in sick at once. PD could also move all officers on the street and re-assign many functions to non-sworn in officers like pretty much every other city in the country.Quote:
Police/Fire are important to me because without those employees in
Detroit, what the hell would you do? Sequester yourself in your homes with bars
on the windows [[which I'm sure are already there), and hope you don't have a
fire or a health emergency or have a home invasion and no one comes?
Again, critical functions but their leadership have been unwilling to bend and have contributed to the dire straits in the city.
You should be pissed at members that voted in people like Conyers to the pension board. KK and Conyers are corrupt and should rot in jail but the existing members of the PD and FD vote on the pension board. DO you ever critique them for voting in the fools and crooks that manage the pension or is it only the politicians that are at fault?Quote:
Incidentally, our pension is protected by the Federal Government and can't be touched. However, it's crooks like Monica Conyers, thug KK, and others who have put their fingers into the pot and used some of the monies for their own personal use.
Yet you presume to know me and whether or not I have bars on my windows and who I voted for. Thanks for pointing out your hypocrisy.....again.Quote:
I also was smart and have a backup plan that I started many years ago so
don't presume to know me jt1...you don't.
Oooh, more presuming to know me. I find it intersting that you insist my 'anger' should be directed towards better causes. Every post of your drips with anger. I'm curious, have you championed any causes to help Detroit, supported any politicians that you like, volunteered for any causes in the city, worked on campaigs for those that want to be on the pension board, etc, etc. I would suspect that you are doing a ton of this since you have a significant amount of anger in each and every post. But it couldn't be that you are just being hypocritical now could it.Quote:
You need to put your anger toward me to better use, like voting the right people in office next time, if there are any honest, upstanding, people with integrity left in Detroit politics.
Don't know if your $20,000,000,000 figure is correct but if it is then every one of the 700,000 men women and children in Detroit is in the hole for approx. $30,000. There is no EM that will be capable of getting round that. The Detroit administrations for many years had to know where this was going but they didn't have the personal stature to draw attention to it. It's too late now for an EM. Bankruptcy is the only way.
...nu uh
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/23/bu...?_r=1&emc=eta1
Without a union pension my life would be so much worse. My elder uncles and grandmother would be a huge financial burden on me and my cousins. Hell... I wish I had one. I have nothing but respect for those workers blessed to be able to bargan collectively.
That said... I think it's a perfectly sound argument that when plotting a pension course, city leaders and accountants assumed that a significant number of the now 20,000 retirees would stay in detroit and commit a portion of their $25,000 [[avg.) payment to the local economy.
I don't think its unfair to stop the 13th check or to shoulder a small portion of the financial burden the city now faces.
The big grift is over down at CAY. The feds and the economy [[read the feds) have seen to most of that. The council while not competent by most measures are the best perceivably available from this [[at large) environment.
I mean it's not like there were a bunch of well seasoned, 55 year old retirees with municipal experience to choose from in the city.
With all sincerity, would a 1.5% reduction in payments or a 10% increase in additional benefits [[copay,coverage) be a critical blow or just uncomfortable for retirees?
In my perspective: If and when I'm told [[and its we all know it's when) my "this tax" and my "that fee" has to go up slightly....I might grumble but I wouldn't fold.
BA, IYHO would it ruin most retirees?
Detroit, from the very beginning of my employment with them, offered a pension as a benefit. Had they not done that, I would have found a way to plan for retirement. The city has known for years that pensions were getting more and more unreachable, yet up until last September, a pension was still offered as a job perk to police recruits.
You are probably right about the city leaders and accountants assuming that some retirees would have stayed in Detroit, therefore, the financial problems wouldn't be so large. Personally, I would have loved to stay. My house was paid for, it was big enough for two to enjoy [[kids gone), and it was well maintained. I didn't want to go out and burden myself with more debt all over again, however, we had no choice. The city promised me and many others a safe enviornment to live in, that promise was not kept. I couldn't count on the services that another suburb supplied and kept their taxes down to a reasonable level. Our safety was a number one priority and I was not guaranteed that the drug dealer on the corner or the thug pimping his girls at the park would allow me to live a peaceful life that I worked so hard for.
The 13th check was given to us because the investments were doing well and the City shared that profit with it's employees. I don't mind not receiving it, although it was nice receiving it.
I would not gripe about a 1.5% reduction in payments or a 10% increase in anything and it wouldn't make life miserable for us. What my main peeve is that this council is pretty ballsie asking for all city employees to take these huge cuts while they sit there on their thrones and refuse to cut to the bone their hefty salaries, perks and bonuses. My peeve is the city administration doesn't start cutting the fat at the top, instead of hitting the junior clerk or janitor or dispatcher or police and fire protection. I will say this, the City of Detroit has been good to me. I have received my pension checks regularly, never missed one....but, I worked my a$$ off, risking life and limb FOR Detroit and the citizens of Detroit for 30 years and I will not make apologies for that!
This seems like the crucial passage:
What happens if Detroit can no longer pay its pension obligations? Does it fall to the state? Does Michigan guarantee the public-sector pension obligations of its municipalities?Quote:
And if a company goes bankrupt, the federal government can take over its pension plan and see that its retirees receive their benefits. Although some retirees receive less than they were promised, no retiree from a federally insured plan in the private sector has come away empty-handed since the federal pension law was enacted in 1974. The law does not cover public sector workers.
Anyone know?
The state constitution protects public pensions. Like debt payments for bonds that the city issued, the pensions have to be paid even if no one else is getting paid.
I didn't say you shouldn't care or even have a say if you don't live here. My entire point was that those who seek to criticize the Council [[the body, not the individuals) should not rely on the media as their sole source of information about what happens during City Council meetings. There are many other ways to get "straight from the horse's mouth" info. And if you can't bother to pick up the phone, watch via internet, etc, then do not spout misinformation about my elected representative body.
I am not trying to defend any individual members. I am, however, supporting the folks who are elected to represent me. I didn't vote for all of those individuals. I don't like all of those individuals. I don't agree with all of those individuals. But at the same time, I pay attention and I don't have a problem e-mailing them, talking to them at community meetings, and watching the sessions for myself. If you don't live here, the very least you can do is give the body the benefit of the doubt when you hear something on tv that sounds too outrageous to be logical. That's when you should seek clarification. Those of us who live here have an incentive to seek clarification so that we know whether we should vote for individual members in the future. Those of you who don't live here should at least cool down your venomous and half-informed assumptions since you haven't taken the time to seek the facts.
I'm not naive. The Council has made decisions I don't agree with, but I will not denegrate the body that represents me. And I would appreciate it if you didn't either.
To Buy American: When you start being as critical of the Fire Dpt union as you are of the City Council, then I would believe that you are not overly biased against the Council.
And I ask again, Buy American, have there been no promotions of City employees since 2008? And don't promotions normally come with a raise? Pugh's staffer was promoted from a position of less responsibility to the position of Chief of Staff. Yes, it is bad judgement, in my opinion, for him to give the guy a higher pay with his elevated title at THIS time. But the bottom line is that Council as a whole HAS proposed to cut their own office budgets AGAIN by 16% for THIS fiscal year after cutting their office budgets at the beginning of THIS fiscal year by 5%. That's a 21% cut for THIS fiscal year. This is the first time that Council has ever cut their budget in the 17 years that the Fiscal Analyst has been with the Council. How do I know that? BECAUSE I ASKED THE FISCAL ANALYST MYSELF. And I heard Ken Cockrel propose just last week that they take an additional 5% cut for NEXT fiscal year. That sounds like leadership to me.
But you won't get THAT story in the news because it makes this Council look good. This is probably the most responsible Council we've had in years. Stop with the mindless insults and dig a little deeper.
And why some folks are soooooo focused on the City Council's budget while ignoring the millions of dollars that could be saved [[and made) by running DPD, DFD and the EMS more efficiently is beyond me.
.
Who runs DPD, DFD and EMS??? More appointee flunkies that are running the departments into the ground. I am not just focused on the council's budget, but I am concerned about the way they are doing things. Just who would make the decisions on how to save or make the millions you're speaking of?
Would they save millions by cutting more salaries? Maybe pay a police officer $22,000 a year and make him/her pay for their own benefits while going out to protect and serve. Quite a few firefighers and police officers purchase their own disability insurance now because the chance of injury or death is with them every day they are on the streets of Detroit. How about cutting the firefighters salary down and cutting off their insurance, while they are running into fires while you are running out?
The Council makes the budget. They don"t decide how it's spent. When was the last time you posted a suggestion on how money could be saved in DFD? I bet you it's not as recent nor as often as you've insulted my elected representative body. The Council can cut its fat quickly
because they don't have to run every decision by a labor union first. By the way, besides the Commissioner, where does the Fire leadership come from? How many of the Fire leadership are also union? Shouldn't that make it easier for efficiencies to be contemplated and achieved by the leadership? And please notice that I said EFFICIENCIES, not cuts to salaries & benefits.
The late and lamented Frank Zappa had an album title that this thread makes me think of. The cover of the album was a rebus puzzle. Some of you will know what I'm talking about and will understand :)
I'm as much fo symbolic shared sacrifice as the next guy, but when the rubber hits the road, arguing over council pay and benefits is a sideshow. Period. It's not even close to where the money is. Council's entire budget is literally 1% of the entire general fund, and many times less than that when the entire city budget is factored in. This laser fixation of the councils' pay and benefits is kind of the last refuge of someone without a real argument. It's a massive, rotting red herring.
Does council's office need reform? Probably. It's also something that probably needed to be taken up through the charter. That was the time for that argument. Right now, in the middle of this crisis, arguing over council is an inane parlor discussion, something with almost zero practical benefit and relevance to avoiding a Category 5 fiscal hurricane.
I know it's a very American thing to do and bitch about the pay and benefits of [[insert legislative body), and it makes us feel righteous, and it may very well be a real concern, but it's a lot like bitching about your significant other not fixing your refrigerator while the house is on fire. It serves no practical, relevant purpose in the middle of a crisis.
Ditto! And how about we refrain from hurling insults at the legislative BODY [[i.e. ”morons”, ”Clowncil”, etc.) when they are doing their job [[as a body) of representing the people of Detroit. Harper Woods laid off 17 workers this morning. Is the HW City Council ”morons” and a ”Clowncil”?
"we want to manage our own business"... "we will not give up the city" = Rhetoric at this point.
We lost our ability to manage our "own" business and keep our 'jewels' it can be argued when our leaders [[so appointed and anointed) squandered the city resources and finances for themselves as we looked on. Now Detroit is on life support fiscally. No one was looking towards the future when the tax base [[read piggy bank) would recede. That dwindling tax base was ignored as the 'friends and family' scams and frauds continued, and worse, was justified. Not to mention the amount of debt Detroit is in is worse than initially reported. All of this and more hidden while fraud and corruption ran wild - recall back under the Kilpatrick admin when we could not even get out a audit on the regular....
Not to say that Detroit has had the best or most effective representation for the last "X" number of years...but is that the issue?
Detroit is not broke because Charles Pugh, Kwame Kenyatta or JoAnn Watson is an assclown, rather because the city has been hemorrhaging people and revenue for 50 years. Kwame awarding contracts to Bobby Ferguson to tear down houses doesn't mean the money wouldn't have been spent had Adamo Construction been awarded the work instead.
Seems like everyone just wants to point fingers at officials that they don't like or don't feel are competant as if that person is at the heart of Detroit's problem. News Flash! It doesn't matter who was elected as mayor or city council. It wouldn't have resulted in a surge of working, educated, tax paying residents leaving the suburbs to return to the city. Detroit would still be looking at filing bankruptcy.
I think it's a big part of the issue Detroit is facing today. Had there not been a "pay to play" and a "family and friends" mentality in the Mayor's office, things may have run much smoother and the taxpayers would have had incentives to stay in Detroit. Bobby Ferguson received contracts from Detroit and didn't fulfill them, another company would have honored their contract and done the work. Bobby Ferguson pocketed much of the money that was paid by Detroit, another company would have been on the up and up.
It's not hard to point fingers at members of council [[I'll refrain from saying clowncil) when you have so many losers sitting at that table. Some of them I do respect because they have been very businesslike in their actions and when they are on camera...but others are buffoons.
In my opinion, had Detroit run an honest government in the past 10 years, things would be quite different today. Unfortunately, with the raping and pillaging of taxpayers, the corrupt administrators, appointees and some employees, Detroit has turned into something less than a desirable place to live.
Even when Dennis Archer was running things in Detroit, the city still lost population during a time when the population of the region and state was growing.
http://www.somacon.com/p469.php
^^^Archer was doing his best to run Detroit properly but he soon saw that he was fighting a losing battle.
Let me be perfectly honest. I knew Dennis Archer. He was a good, honest man. His problem was he was too white for Detroit and that didn't go well with some council members.
I reiterate....you can read into my posts whatever you want, or better yet, you can stop reading them.
I like to address your posts because of the hypocrisy in them. You still have not addressed any specific questions about what DPD or DFD could do to become more efficient with the dollars they have.
I enjoy reading your posts because it just reinforces your lack of understanding of the root causes of what has happended in the city over the last 60 years.
Was Dennis Archer being 'too white' the reason why he destroyed the business district along the river? I agree that he was faced with an incompetent and foolish council but I would like specific examples of him 'being too white' that caused him to be ineffective.
Where did I state that the last or current council was qualified. I have been pretty consistent in my statements that they are not doing a good job. I however temper that with the fact that the current situation in the city is due to a number of things beyond just city council.
I'm curious what education and background you believe are needed to be qualified for the position. We have ineffective leadership in Lansing and Washington but most of them are 'educated'.
So I will respond to your question with some direct question:
1. Ignoring city council do you believe that there are a significant number of other players that have been involved in the city's demise? If so, who.
2. Do you think that the real root of the city's issues are poor planning and decision making that goes back to the 50s? If so, was it federal, state, local level or a combination of the three.
3. Do you think that the unions whether the necessary ones [[like PD and FD) or the worthless ones like AFCSME [[worthless in my opinion) have contributed to the decline of the city.
4. Do you think bitching about city council and their budget is akin to people claiming that potholes were Hiroshima's biggest issues on August 7, 1945.
Because, ultimately BA and others like him are pretty consistent with their message that if it were not for city council, Coleman Young and Kwame that this city would still be considered a world class city. I think the problems and the blame are much, much broader than that and focusing solely on city council is ignorant.
Since you asked I did a quick check on education, which you asked about. I don't believe that education alone results in strong leadership or coorelates to integrity but you asked about education so without further ado:
Of the 9 council members:
4 have a bachelors [[although Cockrel also has completed MSU - Political Leadership Program & Harvard's JFK School of Gov't - Program for State and Local Government Officials)
3 have a masters degree
2 do not have any degrees listed [[although one of the two did rise to the role of deputy chief of police)
Effective and strong leaders? I don't believe so. Educated as an entity? I would certainly say so.
Good ole common sense could run this city better than book knowledge and so called "credentials" Elected officials who had degrees didn't major in the field of the position which they hold.
Originally Posted by mam2009 Ditto! And how about we refrain from hurling insults at the legislative BODY [[i.e. ”morons”, ”Clowncil”, etc.) when they are doing their job [[as a body) of representing the people of Detroit. Harper Woods laid off 17 workers this morning. Is the HW City Council ”morons” and a ”Clowncil”?
I knew that one was coming. It always does. I have said before in previous posts that I did work for a Council member who is no longer on the Council. I also majored in Political Science with a concentration in state and local government. So yes, I have a heightened interest in the local political process. However, my plea is less a defense of the Council, and more a desire for civility & use of common sense. There's no need for the name-calling. And as most of us SHOULD know by now -- you can't believe everything you see on TV. Either seek your own answers or stop assuming you know the whole story when you clearly don't.
supposedly these union concessions have been made and city gov't promises to be more aggressive in obtaining due money from other parties-- http://www.freep.com/article/2012020...yssey=nav|head
Whatever the educational status of the Council members is or has been, there is one dominant feature of Detroit's 50 year decline; it's been run by Democrats.
When is the last time a there was Republican or Libertarian leaning candidate with the balls to officially add their voice to the Detroit discourse? Do you think that our rebublican governor was elected with no support in Detroit?
My agreement with you would be phrased differently...
"..there is one dominant feature of Detroit's 50 year decline; it's been viscerally shunned by republicans.
So you're saying GoGlixdale that we can't blame the Democrats for orchestrating the decline of Detroit over the last 50 years because Republicans and Libertarians [[with or without balls) didn't stop them. What a novel attempt to deflect blame.
Check your history. Detroit's population reached its height in 1950. The two Mayors in the 1950's were Republicans. Between 1950 & 1960 Detroit's population declined by 12% while the population of the metropolitan area and the region GREW. Incidentally, one of those Republican mayors [[Mariani) was convicted in 1969 of tax evasion. My point is that Detroit's decline began before Democrats [[& Blacks) were in power so let's focus on the REAL issue. The REAL reasons why Detroit's decline began. You cannot ignore the impact of urban sprawl, urban disinvestment policies-- and, yes, racism & classism. Why did that first 12% leave Detroit between 1950 & 1960???
I agree with you here.
We also can't ignore the fact that Detroit's decline was ultimately accelerated by Republican policies at the National level, between their "strong defense" National Highway Act and their "free trade" NAFTA, CAFTA and TPP.
And I'm also certain Michigan's homophobic view on the gay community is helping to hold down Detroit's comeback as well [[who tend to thrive in urban environment, and even tend to revive them in their own way).
I want to say the turnout for the gubernatorial election was around 10%, I'm not sure. But if anything, that's probably the reason Virg Benero DID NOT win [[not enough Detroiters voted).
That's not to say Snyder didn't have the support of ANYONE in Detroit, but it was probably only very few voters in the entire city.
You're correct.
We cant blame JUST Democrats or Kwame or Young, Miriani, Mahaffey or Pugh.
I'm saying that the conservative leaning parties have given up trying to practice politics in Detroit. Avoidance or rejection is [has been] their prevailing lean when it comes to the city.My view? That's an absence of a balls to try.
Single sets of ideas, especially in a legislative setting, are never good.
Tying in to the prevailing topic of this thread- I would be thrilled to see a Republican run for city council. I think it would have been nice if some of these cuts were made 5-10-20 years ago and Republicans tend to do that.
...i'm rational most days.
What makes you so sure that there's no Republican on the Council now? Council elections are non-partisan. Keith Butler was a Republican when he served on the Council. Its not unheard of. The only problem for Republicans: You gotta live here to get elected here.
True there's no declared partisanship in the council election but, perceptually, Republicans don't want to participate. When I look at the governance of other municipalities [[from the outside) it seems to work better when there is at least some partisan dissension to keep balance.
To be honest I did forget about Butler.
I dont see the city council as helping anyone but themselves. In fact. They are probably mad as hell that they aren't able to pervert or abuse their positions to a similar level as their predecessors. Corruption in Detroit administration really seems to reach every nook and cranny and for brevity I wont list or discuss it further. I know you know. But back when Detroit had more tax base the 80s and 90s.... That city council position was a little money printing factory. Now their every move is under scrutiny and lets face it. There isnt much left to steal. Back then there was a lot. Now what little is left is being eyed by enough people that city council cant just do what they please. I bet they think about it all the time. I bet it pisses them off like you wouldnt believe.
The shrinking funds "left to steal".... Yeah, someone should have mentioned this to Ficano as he was winding-open-a-can in terms of spending fest!! He kinda came in late to the party it could be argued...
Yep, the "friends and family" justification went along with the largess of moneys to divert for uses other than intended! It must have seemed an infinite piggy bank. After all, everyone 'steals' went the reasoning...
I think its a pretty safe bet to say that there aren't enough Republicans living in Detroit to get elected which goes back to my earlier comment about the original reasons why people began to leave Detroit between 1950 & 1960. You have to actually LIVE in Detroit in order to get elected. Since large numbers of Republicans have no desire to live here, Public Act 4 is the only way Republicans will get to control what happens in Detroit.
San Diego, CA is a perfect example of a large city run by Republicans that's run itself into a fiscal disaster. I believe the current Council is now majority Democrats but for years, the Mayor and Council majority were Republicans.
I would rather have Keith Butler on the council than Charles Pugh. Pugh doesn't have the head or mind for financing. That is why he is having a hard time paying his rent and giving pay raises to someone who probably never had been a secretary. Butler was a much better councilman than four of the council together
I don't think you can make a comparison with Detroit no matter when and how badly they ran it [[if they did) because since 1969 to 2010 the San Diego population rose from 682,000 to 1.2 Million and the recent murder rate was 29 per year. San Diego Homicide Rate Continues To Drop - San Diego News Story - KGTV San Diego
Running your city into bankruptcy is OK as long as no one gets killed?
...Butler [[isn't he retired from Word of Faith?), if on the council today, would likely uplift the hyper-moralistic issues like banning strip clubs.. not sure what he'd really contribute in terms of finding ways for improving city services.. same with any of the other megachurch pastors..
Keith Butler probably would had probably not go along with the cuts that Pugh and others are proposing. I am not saying that he was perfect. I think that his heart was more in the right place unlike the very inexperience coucil members that we have now. I had stated on the other site that their cutting police, fire, and EMS services had caused residence grief including unfortunately our city council president. EMS not arriving on time where families have to drive their loved ones to the hospital themselves or watch their loved ones or collegue die while waiting for one. This is not the fault of the police, fire, and emergency personel. This is the fault of so-called city politcal leaders making irresponsible cuts to these services instead of having the casinoes and corporation's revenue to fund these services. My prayers goes out to the Pugh family for the loss of his brother. Charlie LeDuff had reported that the Mayor's office and Charles Pugh had been quiet on the fact that EMS was unable to show in a timiley manner and other police officers had to escort Charles Pugh's brother to the hospital. I wasn't expecting the council president to respond for he is grieving. The Mayor and other council members should had responded to the media pertaining to this tragedy.
A. I don't know anything about Keith Butler, but since he is a Republican, I can't imagine he wouldn't want to cut the budget just like Republicans on the state & federal government level.
B. I don't recall how much the Council cut the budgets of the DPD, Fire & EMS, but I DO recall that those unions refused to take the 10% paycut that ALL other City employees took three years ago. If the City has less tax revenue, to get a balanced budget it has to cut expenses.
C. The newspaper account I saw said it only took the EMS 10 minutes to get there. Do you have some inside information that contradicts that? Lord knows I don't believe everything I read in the paper, but it seems that if the media CAN sensationalize a story, they normally will.
People have to stop blaming the unions for the situation Detroit is in today.
Police and Fire did not receive any raises in 2008 and nothing has changed since then. Now, the City is asking them to take another 10% cut in salaries which would equal 20%....also they want more money to pay insurance premiums. Police/fire are down to bare bones. I know many firemen and policemen who are purchasing their own equipment because the City isn't paying their bills to the vendors. You can't expect people to continue to take cuts when everything is going up in cost. Also, remember one important thing....police and fire personnel aren't going to the office to do menial jobs, they leave their homes every day and don't know if they are coming back. Put yourself in their place and see if you'd go out there for $25,000 to 30,000 to start!
I sympathize with Police & Fire's point of view, Buy America. I really do. But nearly all of the other unions took pay CUTS in 2008. And those workers aren't paid any better than police officers & probably don't have the same opportunities for overtime. I wasn't maliciously laying blame, but the bottom line is everyone has to do their part -- E
everyone.
I would venture to guess that not everyone took pay cuts in 2008, especially those in administration, the appointees, and friends and family. The bottom line is that cutting wages and health benefit premiums will not solve the problem in Detroit, you and I both know this. Any incentive to pay home taxes [[that will boost Detroit's funds) has all but blown out the broken windows when Wayne County is now offering squatters the option to purchase homes for $500. This is telling the good, taxpaying group that it's okay to skip paying taxes, you'll get a break some where down the line.
I see and hear and remember what it was like to work in Detroit. I know some of the intricate comings and goings of the administration and I know I don't like what I see.
Everyone has done their part to get Detroit solvent, but from 2008 until today, nothing has changed and it's become much worse. You can't expect people who work for Detroit to continue to shoulder the burden of those on the 13th floor of the CAY building and their mismanagement, their thievery, their extortion of others, the criminals who are still handling the financial aspect of Detroit. Detroiters may not have to worry about an EM too much because whatever police department or fire department or EMS Division is left will leave....because when a janitor or a jr. clerk is making as much as a starting police officer, that's a crying shame.
I'm ranting and I'm sorry.
BA,
I agree that it is a shame, but one fact is true: You don't have to be a pilice officer or fireman if it's not financially viable. No one is amking you do it, and there are plenty of other places to go be a fireman or police officer if doing it in Detroit is excessively unsafe.
It was the same when I was in the military, crappy hours and pay, away from home, etc. the one thing that rung true is that everyone chose to do it.
I understand if a lot of these changes end up happening after years on the job, but if anyone working for the city of Detroit [[or living in the city) didn't see these changes coming from years ago, they have no one to blame but themselves. There are many working people that don't have even the limited protection of a union in their careers. You have to try to roll with the punches.