ACLU sues State of Michigan over quality of Highland Park schools

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...y.html?hpid=z2

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n the first case of its kind, the American Civil Liberties Union is charging that the state of Michigan and a Detroit area school district have failed to adequately educate children, violating their “right to learn to read” under an obscure state law.

The ACLU class-action lawsuit, to be filed Thursday, says hundreds of students in the Highland Park School District are functionally illiterate.

“None of those adults charged with the care of these children . . . have done their jobs,” said Kary L. Moss, executive director of the ACLU of Michigan. “The Highland Park School District is among the lowest-performing districts in the nation, graduating class after class of children who are not literate. Our lawsuit . . . says that if education is to mean anything, it means that children have a right to learn to read.”

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Sue the parents too.

Highland Park and its public schools need our sympathy and support.

Highland Park is severely disadvantaged, even more than Detroit in terms of having an unsustainable portion of its population being poor or disabled. With that comes added expenses for their care and increased crime which leads to high insurance rates, lower valuations, lower revenues, decreasing services and a resultant middle class flight. Pile on to that broken camel's back the burden of millions in pension fund outlays generously granted to a large workforce, back when the population was three times larger and three times wealthier, none of whom live in HP.

This spills over into the school system where the children of the disadvantaged comprise the student bodies. Many children need, through no fault of their own, things beyond education, like food and secure passage to school and home. Thing that never cross the radar in some districts.

There's a saying that good schools are derived from involved parents and a quality principal. But what about those school districts where the involved parents have gone elsewhere?

There is a small middle class citizenry in Highland Park primarily in its two historic homes districts. I was one of them. We placed our child in the Barber School Head Start program. It was outstanding, required on-site alternating parental involvement and had a teacher and an assistant for 15 kids.

The next step would be Kindergarten with one teacher for 30 kids in a windowless room, almost entirely non-Head Start-ed kids. One peek in there and it off to St. Benedict's School in Highland Park to pay the tuition for an orderly and quality education by liberation nuns and lay staff.

Almost no one in HP who had enough income sent their kids to the public schools. Many with even lower incomes scuffled and figured out how to get alternate educations for their kids. Today, the charter schools have to have bled off even more involved parentage.

My solution? Head Start forever. Carry over the Head Start model of one teacher and one assistant for 15 kids for all grades. Provide Highland Park with the public safety proportionate not to its population, but its needs. Don't scold the parents who remain or are stuck there. Help them out.

We can pay a little more now or a lot more later.

Whomever is raising the children is to blame.

It's one thing if you can't explain to your child how to FOIL multiplication variables in algebra or the inner workings of an atom - but if a child cannot read or write - it is the fault of the person raising the child.

I'm curious as to what argument can be made to state it isn't a parent's responsiblity. If I saw my child wasn't learning multiplication tables fast enough - i'd buy flashcards at at Walmart/dollar store and assist at home.

The travesty is that an adult in the house knowingly and willingly watched a child grow up without spending 30 minutes a day to help teach the child to read or write. The ultimate child abuse!

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Originally Posted by belleislerunner

Whomever is raising the children is to blame.

It's one thing if you can't explain to your child how to FOIL multiplication variables in algebra or the inner workings of an atom - but if a child cannot read or write - it is the fault of the person raising the child.

I'm curious as to what argument can be made to state it isn't a parent's responsiblity. If I saw my child wasn't learning multiplication tables fast enough - i'd buy flashcards at at Walmart/dollar store and assist at home.

The travesty is that an adult in the house knowingly and willingly watched a child grow up without spending 30 minutes a day to help teach the child to read or write. The ultimate child abuse!

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It is the parents responsibility too. That doesn't absolve the state of its responsibility.

The state's true guilt is that it is allowing kids to be pushed through the system without being adequately prepared according to its own standards. Yeah, it's partly the parents fault that the kid can't read, but the parents are not the ones passing those kids on to the next grade level while knowing they can't read.

This is another case of having too many societal issues at the same time that effect the school situation. It is NOT all the school's fault. Maybe they could have done more, but with dwindling tax dollars and rising costs for almost everything, school buildings that need major repairs, and all the other issues, I don't feel they are totally to blame.

And putting this through litigation only adds to their costs! Now they have to pay attorney fees etc, just to defend themselves. Whether they win the case or not, they lose time and money.

I agree that parents need to take some responsibility for their child's education, whether it be teaching them at home or putting them in another school.

Yes...there's been a failure to educate...but to blame a school district that is literally struggling to survive seems a little over the top to me. Doesn't the ACLU have anything better to do?

the solution is more government involvement, it has nothing to do with the parents, the federal government hasn't done enough to make sure they have the resources available to teach these kids....

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Originally Posted by Blueidone

Yes...there's been a failure to educate...but to blame a school district that is literally struggling to survive seems a little over the top to me. Doesn't the ACLU have anything better to do?

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Isn't the Highland Park School System under state management? I thought that's why the ACLU is suing the state.

All the money in the world will find its way to the lawyers or to the crooks in administration. Thats the way it works around here

It must be the parents' fault. If they had only had the good sense to not be born poor and/or black in a shitty neighborhood in a poor town, they'd be fine. Hey, it's their choice to be poor, right? And it's not bad enough that their children are born illiterate, they can't even speak English when they're born!

DN, I know you're trying to be a smart-@$$ but in some cases it is the parents fault. There are lots of educated children growing up in similar environments whose parents realize the only shot this kid has of getting out is to learn the things they were either to lazy to, or were not given the opportunity to learn. It certainly does not help that the school system they rely on it disfunctional. I say sue em both and let the courts decide who is guilty and of what.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

DN, I know you're trying to be a smart-@$$ but in some cases it is the parents fault. There are lots of educated children growing up in similar environments whose parents realize the only shot this kid has of getting out is to learn the things they were either to lazy to, or were not given the opportunity to learn. It certainly does not help that the school system they rely on it disfunctional. I say sue em both and let the courts decide who is guilty and of what.

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I KNOW! What is it with the poor people? It's like, all society did was turn its back on them for, like, forever, give them shitty educations, trap them in ghettoes, deny them opportunities, give them shitty services -- and they have the temerity to not push their kids' scholastic skills? I mean, WTF? You're damn right it's the parents at fault! Just because you're a member of a permanent underclass in the worst possible situation doesn't mean you shouldn't force your child to hit those books!

I mean, it's not like, somehow, we're all at fault for abdicating any social duty to our collective common welfare. Lies!

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Originally Posted by Lowell

Highland Park and its public schools need our sympathy and support.

...<snip>...Provide Highland Park with the public safety proportionate not to its population, but its needs. Don't scold the parents who remain or are stuck there. Help them out.

We can pay a little more now or a lot more later.

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Sympathy and support come with dissolution of the dysfunctional government in place. It should become the 'opportunity' for either county, state, or federal government. Existing labor agreements and contracts and pensions all get torn up and replaced with a generic public pension reserved for those who don't manage their affairs well enough. I know many will say that there's not enough money -- but if failure of pensions is in the future, then money that has gone to corruption and waste in HP will instead find its way to better places -- because those in charge will realize their future is wrapped up not just in their ability to get good agreements today -- but 'sustainable' financial success for their city.

Or it just goes away along with the failure.

So I agree 100% with you on our obligations to step in and helpl with HP.

Being poor is a red herring.

Every child could learn to read and write using nothing more than a Bible [[or any book), pen and paper.

I agree 100% about the lack of quality public schools, bad enviroment etc at the HP facilities - my point was merely - the reasons cited [[i.e. inability to read and write) should be child abuse for the parents. You don't need to rely on any government/school to teach that.

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Originally Posted by belleislerunner

Being poor is a red herring.

Every child could learn to read and write using nothing more than a Bible [[or any book), pen and paper.

I agree 100% about the lack of quality public schools, bad enviroment etc at the HP facilities - my point was merely - the reasons cited [[i.e. inability to read and write) should be child abuse for the parents. You don't need to rely on any government/school to teach that.

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I honestly don't get this line of thought. Of course, any child could theoretically learn to read and write using the Bible. Hell, American slaves did it! But why are kids in Highland Park "bad" for not doing what we wouldn't ever expect of kids in any rich district? You're expecting the most from the kids who have the least and when they don't give that then you say it's their own fault.

I grew up in Northern Macomb County - and that's how we learned - and I learned to read/write in the 80's - so it's not that archaic.

No need to make excuses for people's bad behavior.

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Originally Posted by belleislerunner

I grew up in Northern Macomb County - and that's how we learned - and I learned to read/write in the 80's - so it's not that archaic.

No need to make excuses for people's bad behavior.

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Well, I hope the ACLU sues your school district too.

The only people who win in suing are the lawyers. Did you see what happened to Mammoth Lakes, CA earlier this month - rich ski resort town in CA lost a frivolus $40 million lawsuit. So they filed for bakruptcy. Reduced payments and life goes on. The ACLU can sue HP/Mich all it wants - it won't collect. The city will just file bankuptcy/the liability will be adjusted accordingly. http://www.inquisitr.com/268353/mamm...12-california/

And PS - The 14 year old still won't know how to read or write.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

But why are kids in Highland Park "bad" for not doing what we wouldn't ever expect of kids in any rich district? You're expecting the most from the kids who have the least and when they don't give that then you say it's their own fault.

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My son is 4 and he's learning to read and write with a couple of $2 workbooks from Target, flashcards we made from 3x5 cards, some blank paper and crayons. Total cost about $10.

Short of a clinical condition, there is NO damn reason to be illiterate. Even in flat-broke districts, there are after-school programs, clinics run by non-profits and churches, free workbooks from libraries, etc...

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Originally Posted by JBMcB

My son is 4 and he's learning to read and write with a couple of $2 workbooks from Target, flashcards we made from 3x5 cards, some blank paper and crayons. Total cost about $10.

Short of a clinical condition, there is NO damn reason to be illiterate. Even in flat-broke districts, there are after-school programs, clinics run by non-profits and churches, free workbooks from libraries, etc...

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Clearly, there is a reason to be illiterate... Otherwise, we wouldn't have illiterate people.

But I know where you're going with this one. Places like Highland Park have such low literacy rates because of the people who choose to live there. If the people cared about being literate then they wouldn't live in places like Highland Park. Except... I'm sure that 14 year old kid did not choose to live in Highland Park or to even be born for that matter.

But really, that's not even my problem with Highland Park schools, and by extension, the state. My problem with the school system is that they are rubber stamping these kids through the system and ignoring the problem. How does a kid get to 7th grade writing like that?! If someone can give me a legitimate answer to that then they should represent the state in court.

I think we're splitting hairs. Your argument is that the state shouldn't have passed kids to higher grades without meeting a certain metric/hurdle. I don't think anyone would disagree with you on that.

My point is that the lack of ability to read/write is the parent's fault.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

Isn't the Highland Park School System under state management? I thought that's why the ACLU is suing the state.

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My apologies. I didn't read the whole article and did not realize that they were under State management, and that the ACLU is suing the State as well.

Perhaps this is the right move.

Yeah, it's the parents fault. They could have raised those children any way they wanted.

And homosexuality is a lifestyle choice... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by belleislerunner

I think we're splitting hairs. Your argument is that the state shouldn't have passed kids to higher grades without meeting a certain metric/hurdle. I don't think anyone would disagree with you on that.

My point is that the lack of ability to read/write is the parent's fault.

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I would not assume all parents are capable of teaching their kids to read. I would not assume all parents have much time with their kids. I do think a lot of underprepared people become parents. In any case, as numerous other people have said, whether it is the parents' fault or not makes little difference to the uneducated children. If the purpose of this lawsuit is to draw attention to the problem, I'm OK with that, but there is no likelihood that there will be any significant improvement as a result of any legal remedy, so if that's what the ACLU is after they are wasting their time.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Yeah, it's the parents fault. They could have raised those children any way they wanted.

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The parents do shoulder some blame here. My family didn't have much money when I was growing up so my mom made a point to read to me at a very young age. We would go to the Detroit Public Library and pick out a couple books.

As far as the folks here not wanting to help the kids, what is your solution, keep passing them until they graduate? Then when they have no skills to hold down a job, what do we do? Toss them in prison?

Hopefully in two years, Ms. Johnson will be able to sue McDonald's for making her children obese.

Her story doesn't even add up - she attends "all the school board meetings" yet has an 11th grade student who reads on a third grade level. Newsflash - skip a meeting and take your children to DPL to read. Clearly a scapegoat plucked by the ACLU and handed talking points to rehearse.

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Originally Posted by Detroitej72

The parents do shoulder some blame here. My family didn't have much money when I was growing up so my mom made a point to read to me at a very young age. We would go to the Detroit Public Library and pick out a couple books.

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No, man, I totally agree. The parents are totally to blame. I mean, they can't read, they're poor, they're the permanent underclass, and they still get to have kids? We should be sterilizing these people as soon as they're born. They'll never amount to anything, so why should they have the right to have kids?

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Originally Posted by Detroitej72

As far as the folks here not wanting to help the kids, what is your solution, keep passing them until they graduate? Then when they have no skills to hold down a job, what do we do? Toss them in prison?

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No, man, you don't get it. We can't do anything to change the situation, because then who would we blame for the problem? Don't shift the blame onto me! I want to keep blaming those parents until the end of time! Why fuck with something when it works?

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Originally Posted by belleislerunner

Hopefully in two years, Ms. Johnson will be able to sue McDonald's for making her children obese.

Her story doesn't even add up - she attends"all the school board meetings" yet has an 11th grade student who reads on a third grade level. Newsflash - skip a meeting and take your children to DPL to read.

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I disagree. If her child couldn't read at all, she would have to be pretty oblivious not to notice it. But if you can read at a third-grade level, you can read well enough to handle the usual tasks a child needs to do outside of school. If the child wasn't inclined to do outside reading, how would you know that they were bad at it except via school reports? So if the school passes them along grade by grade, how do you know they haven't learned anything, particularly if you don't know anything either.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

No, man, I totally agree. The parents are totally to blame.

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I said the parents shoulder some of the blame, not all, for the reasons you stated.

We, as a civilized society need to step up and take care of the children whose parents fail them. Otherwise the cycle will never end.

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Originally Posted by Detroitej72

I said the parents shoulder some of the blame, not all, for the reasons you stated.

We, as a civilized society need to step up and take care of the children whose parents fail them. Otherwise the cycle will never end.

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You don't recognize satire, do you? :)

This whole "parents fail" thing is used as a sop to deflect from a failing system. The fact is, we simply don't put a priority on educating inner city children. There is no successful model for educating inner city children. So, instead of recognizing that, it's much easier to say: "I blame their parents."

You know: Sometimes, the same parents who were graduated from the same failed school system just 15 years ago...

But, yeah, just keep blaming the parents. Good way to avoid any anxiety-causing analysis of why we routinely fuck over a good percentage of our young people. Why, oh, why can't the most completely fucked-up poor people raise their children as if they were tutors hired to prepare the children of Bloomfield Hills for the Roeper School?

Well seeing as that's the case, they should have added you to the lawsuit. Clearly you failed them =)

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

This whole "parents fail" thing is used as a sop to deflect from a failing system.

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The system, in part, is failing because of the parents.

The system needs to be fixed. However, parents need to step up as well. If you don't have the time or resources to raise a child, then wait until you do.

While a public school system is there to educate, it does so in partnership with parents, not in absence of.

Social scientists agree that the majority of childhood learning takes place outside the classroom, and is weighted heavily towards pre-k age development.

So, yes, parents share a big chunk of blame. Not 100% of blame, but a big, fat chunk. There are plenty of schools with similar levels of poverty in very close proximity to Highland Park that don't have this problem.

The Bangledeshis, living maybe 10 blocks east, and just as poor [[and often with parents who can't read or write English) somehow don't have this problem, and go to the same quality schools.

In all due respect to those who have posted on this thread about the responsibility of parents, the term parents being tossed around makes little sense in this situation. Maybe you are thinking of your parents or yourselves as parents of a two parent family. Lucky you and lucky me. In that context the sanctimoniousness and moral outrage expressed about parental blame makes some sense.

But it ain't that way in HP. For a vast majority of the students left in the HP schools parent is a singular not a plural word, if a word at all. So please don't blame the parents, blame the parent, if there is one. Many children, through no fault of their own, are born to a teenaged parent, sometimes crack-addicted, maybe mentally handicapped and often illiterate. For many others the parent is a grannie, auntie or foster home parent because their real parent is in prison, disabled or dead.

Such a parent can't be responsible because they are also children who need parenting. They can't buy books and teach the kids to read because they can't read.

Look into the eyes the eight year old, with his five year old sister in hand, sobbing on your porch at 10 o'clock at night because the parent has disappeared for hours leaving them and a 1 year old sibling with soiled diapers home alone. Yes that happened to me.

Forget the parent and focus on the children. It's not their fault. They need help. Provide the intensive Head Start setting and teacher to student ratio that is required to give them the chance they need. Save them.

And don't overlook that many of these single parents are trying very hard, juggling child-raising with minimum wage jobs, alone, without cars and living in high stress dangerous neighborhood circumstances. Give them a chance by providing their children the top quality and secure education that can uplift them and break the cycle. Pay a little more now or a lot more later.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Why, oh, why can't the most completely fucked-up poor people raise their children as if they were tutors hired to prepare the children of Bloomfield Hills for the Roeper School?

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Are you aware that federal No Child Left Behind legislation includes free year-round tutoring on demand for children in high-poverty schools? And that the free tutoring is woefully underenrolled? Schools have to beg parents to use the tutoring, with pizza parties, raffle giveaways and the like.

Obviously most parents give a damn, regardless of income, but there is a signficant cohort of parents who don't. There is nothing the schools can do about this. If you switched Highland Park and Bloomfield Hills kids [[switched the teachers, facilities, and programs) I bet you would have the same outcomes for both cohorts.

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Originally Posted by Lowell

In all due respect to those who have posted on this thread about the responsibility of parents, the term parents being tossed around makes little sense in this situation. Maybe you are thinking of your parents or yourselves as parents of a two parent family. Lucky you and lucky me. In that context the sanctimoniousness and moral outrage expressed about parental blame makes some sense.

But it ain't that way in HP. For a vast majority of the students left in the HP schools parent is a singular not a plural word, if a word at all. So please don't blame the parents, blame the parent, if there is one. Many children, through no fault of their own, are born to a teenaged parent, sometimes crack-addicted, maybe mentally handicapped and often illiterate. For many others the parent is a grannie, auntie or foster home parent because their real parent is in prison, disabled or dead.

Such a parent can't be responsible because they are also children who need parenting. They can't buy books and teach the kids to read because they can't read.

Look into the eyes the eight year old, with his five year old sister in hand, sobbing on your porch at 10 o'clock at night because the parent has disappeared for hours leaving them and a 1 year old sibling with soiled diapers home alone. Yes that happened to me.

Forget the parent and focus on the children. It's not their fault. They need help. Provide the intensive Head Start setting and teacher to student ratio that is required to give them the chance they need. Save them.

And don't overlook many of these single parents are trying very hard, juggling child-raising with minimum wage jobs, alone, without cars and living in high stress dangerous neighborhood circumstances. At least have a heart enough to support those by giving their children a top quality and secure education.

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None of what you said is a school's fault. According to Greatschools.org, Highland Park has a lower student to teacher ratio than the state average and more spending per pupil than the state average. Schools can't do everything. Grosse Pointe North is a perfect example. It was considered one of the top schools in the state. Then some families from Detroit started moving into Harper Woods and sending their kids to Grosse Pointe North. Test scores go down and the school suddenly isn't as good anymore. This same district also has Grosse Pointe South which is still considered among the best in the state. These disadvantaged kids are going to one of the wealthiest school districts in the state and yet still aren't succeeding. I guess that's the school's fault as well?

One more thing, ACLU lawyers do not make tons of money. This isn't call Sam or Joumona money. True enough it will cost public money to defend this suit, but if it brings justice for the children of Highland Park it will be money well invested. No one will be hitting the jackpot and pocketing millions.

Every child that becomes an educated tax-paying functioning member of society and not a prisoner housed at $35K a year offers a huge return on investment.

We have the research that indicates that schools aren't nearly as important as the home life. So, if we say that parents aren't at fault, what is the solution?

Again, we know that schools cannot, by themselves, come close to making a dent in the problem. So what do we do when family situations prevent normal childhood cognitive development? Remove the guardians, and make the children wards of the state? I have no idea how to solve this.

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Originally Posted by Shollin

None of what you said is a school's fault. According to Greatschools.org, Highland Park has a lower student to teacher ratio than the state average and more spending per pupil than the state average. Schools can't do everything. Grosse Pointe North is a perfect example. It was considered one of the top schools in the state. Then some families from Detroit started moving into Harper Woods and sending their kids to Grosse Pointe North. Test scores go down and the school suddenly isn't as good anymore. This same district also has Grosse Pointe South which is still considered among the best in the state. These disadvantaged kids are going to one of the wealthiest school districts in the state and yet still aren't succeeding. I guess that's the school's fault as well?

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Again the focus moves away from the children. As to those who move their children into other school systems, those are the parents who have it together enough to figure that out. They are the involved parents I spoke about a the start of this thread, the one's that are trying. The children left behind are the issue. They don't have that kind of parent. They are stuck.

If children who move to better districts are truly the reason for scores being depressed, that argues for ACLU suit. The schools they left were not providing the proper education. The State of Michigan which is ultimately responsible [they set the standards, tests and scores] has likewise failed its children.

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Originally Posted by Lowell

Again the focus moves away from the children. But as to those who move their children into other school systems, those are the parents who have it together enough to figure that out. They are they involved parents I spoke about a the start of this thread, the one's that are trying. The children left behind are the issue. They don't have that kind of parent. They are stuck.

If children who move better districts are truly the reason for scores being depressed, that argues for ACLU suit. The schools they left were not providing the proper education.

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The children being moved into the better districts are still failing. The parents are moving into Harper Woods because there's a lot of section 8 housing and cheap rent. How can you blame the other schools when they never went to them? Harper Woods elementary and the elementary schools feeding Grosse Pointe North have tanked.

I understand we need to focus on children. Part of the solution is parenting. Teachers only have these kids from 8am to 3pm 180 days a year.

In Detroit where we have more dropouts than graduates, how the hell can the school system fix that? Most of the kids aren't even in the classroom, they're gone. Not even within the grasp of teachers. Those kids are out making babies and trouble, and their parents don't give a shit that their kid isn't going to graduate from high school.

We must focus on birth control, condoms, and judgement. We have to stop babies having babies, and children being raised by grandparents.

Yes, I had two parents. Yes, I'm very lucky. Yes, I'm very fortunate to get through school with good grades, go to college, and get a job.

I'm successful because of the schools I went to AND my parents. My mother made it clear to me it was not a matter of going to college, but WHAT college. We couldn't afford much, so it was community college while I worked full time, and then onto Walsh to finish up.

I had parents. They forced me to do things I didn't want to do. They had expectations of me. They had consequences.

My sister became pregnant at the age of 16. The father was gone right away. My mother forced my sister to finish up high school on-time. My sister had to live at home while she went to community college and then Oakland U. She had to work part time, and be a teenage mother. My sister made one big shitty choice, but my mother wouldn't let it derail her life. My sister is now a teacher.

My point is, I am what I am because of a school system AND parents. My sister made a mistake, but my mother refused to let it ruin my sister's life.

You need a good school system, but you need parents too. Even if it's only one parent, you've got to step up. Life's about choices, and if you choose to make babies when you're young, then you've got to step up, eat your mistake, and keep charging forward.

Don't expect a school system to magically do everything for you. They're a partner, not a replacement for parents.

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Originally Posted by mwilbert

I disagree. If her child couldn't read at all, she would have to be pretty oblivious not to notice it. But if you can read at a third-grade level, you can read well enough to handle the usual tasks a child needs to do outside of school. If the child wasn't inclined to do outside reading, how would you know that they were bad at it except via school reports? So if the school passes them along grade by grade, how do you know they haven't learned anything, particularly if you don't know anything either.

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Precisely. Look at this excerpt from a letter a 7th-grader wrote to Governor Snyder, per the article: "My name is Quemtin . . . and you can make the school gooder by geting people that will do the jod that is pay for get a football tame for the kinds mybe a baksball tamoe get a other jamtacher for the school get a lot of tacher."

This kid Quentin [[sic!) obviously does not reside in a household where he is frequently pressed to parse and then evaluate the arguments presented by Messieurs Krugman and Brooks on some subject matter they disagree about [[I don't know...Citizens United or some such?) in the Op-Ed pages of the New York Times. I dare say that, seeing as how it is no longer published, the family study is likely to remain deprived of the complete Encyclopedia Britannica.

He probably comes from a long line of Quentins. It is a realistic possibility for his parents not to have much of a clue about anything having to do with any of that. To play Devil's Advocate for a moment, they can't really much help that.

Assuming, however, that we have now agreed to blame Quentin's parents, perhaps we choose to find them unfit, and remove him from their care. Or perhaps we find it beside the point to lay blame, and proceed to do so for pragmatic reasons. Either way, with luck, he will be placed with some other folks who not only press him for his opinion on the discussion between Krugman and Brooks, but did wisely foresee this day and purchase the complete Encyclopedia Brittanica when they had the opportunity. All's well.

Good luck with that. Liberals will surely detest the idea, call it racist, and some well-informed members may point to similar experiments in Australia in decades past that the Prime Minister in recent memory apologized for. Conservatives, meanwhile, are certain to find it off-putting, as it is hard to imagine a more invasive act of government activism. Hmm... the Greens, mayhaps? Closeted racists? Now there's a workable coalition.

For anyone seeking to solve this persistent problem - our society, say - schools are quite likely the path of least resistance, at least at first glance. Assuming we can get past the blame game, just for long enough to act. Thereafter, we can resume placing blame to everyone's content.

The article the OP linked to goes on to specify the following:

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The complaint, to be filed in state court in Wayne County, is based on a 1993 state law that says if public school students are not proficient in reading, as determined by tests given in grades 4 and 7, they must be provided “special assistance” to bring them to grade level within a year.
But at Highland Park, a three-school district bordering Detroit, most of the struggling students are years behind grade level and never received the kind of assistance required by law, the ACLU said.

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The state is not enforcing its own law. So is the claim, anyway. Testing that claim seems like an exemplary use of the courts to me.

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Originally Posted by Lowell

One more thing, ACLU lawyers do not make tons of money. This isn't call Sam or Joumona money. True enough it will cost public money to defend this suit, but if it brings justice for the children of Highland Park it will be money well invested. No one will be hitting the jackpot and pocketing millions.

Every child that becomes an educated tax-paying functioning member of society and not a prisoner housed at $35K a year offers a huge return on investment.

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Lowell, it won't bring "justice" for the children. The courts will find for the ACLU. The lawyers will get paid [[something) and the state will have to pony up more money for the school district [[a "special" educational supplement) that will be used to hire more assistants for the teachers. There will be some benefit but will do little to magically convert them into "an educated tax-paying functioning member of society" as you foresee.

I'm glad we have so many lemmings willing to tow the party line at any opportunity. Thankfully, we know from this thread that the school district is stellar and plays no part in this problem. Praise ye Jah.

Maybe Highland Park could hire Arthur Blackwell to lead them, he only requires $1 for a salary and that could save money for the kids.

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Originally Posted by Hermod

Lowell, it won't bring "justice" for the children. The courts will find for the ACLU. The lawyers will get paid [[something) and the state will have to pony up more money for the school district [[a "special" educational supplement) that will be used to hire more assistants for the teachers. There will be some benefit but will do little to magically convert them into "an educated tax-paying functioning member of society" as you foresee.

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I disagree. You seem to be making a argument for inaction.

We can only speculate on what the court may order if anything, but any and all assistance will be an improvement for children of that district. I don't think anyone is arguing, certainly not me, that the children presently in the systm will be 'magically converted' in any way.

The damage is large done there. But intensive remediation can offer a way for the future and breaking the cycle illiteracy while hopefully recovering some still in the system. Everyone of those children are important and they both need and deserve the opportunity to rise above their circumstances.

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Originally Posted by kenp

Maybe Highland Park could hire Arthur Blackwell to lead them, he only requires $1 for a salary and that could save money for the kids.

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Highland Park has undoubtedly been plagued by that family but malfeasance on the part of public officials, inept parents and other screw ups are distractions that many seem to want to play up to avoid dealing with a serious issue.

The children are the innocent victims in this educational drive-by shooting and the ACLU with the suit against the state is making that point clear.

The past can't be undone, but the future can be righted.

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Originally Posted by Lowell

One more thing, ACLU lawyers do not make tons of money. This isn't call Sam or Joumona money. True enough it will cost public money to defend this suit, but if it brings justice for the children of Highland Park it will be money well invested. No one will be hitting the jackpot and pocketing millions.

Every child that becomes an educated tax-paying functioning member of society and not a prisoner housed at $35K a year offers a huge return on investment.

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If, and only if the taxpayer's money accomplishes the result.

I agree with your goals, Lowell. Any decent person does. The debate is about methods. I don't see any evidence that money helps students. Do you?

That is why I'm in favor of radical change in schools -- regardless of whose ox is gored. Unions, corporate schooling, schools districts, anyone. We need to allow new methods to flourish. More money spent with the existing commisars of education isn't doing the trick for our children in HP.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

I agree with your goals, Lowell. Any decent person does. The debate is about methods. I don't see any evidence that money helps students. Do you?

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Ab-so-lutely. As mentioned in my first post, I experienced Head Start first hand as a Highland Park parent. It prepares both student and parents. Some of the parent were inspired to restart their own educational improvement. Statistics on success of head-started students, vs those that aren't, are striking.

For districts like HP that intensive form of education needs to be extended to all grades. I would be happy to see it start with the current head start class and be extended through all their years and for the successive classes. It needs to start and start now.

I do not advocate aimlessly throwing money at a problem. However when a proven highly successful model exists, money will not be wasted. The long term savings will immense.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

Are you aware that federal No Child Left Behind legislation includes free year-round tutoring on demand for children in high-poverty schools? And that the free tutoring is woefully underenrolled? Schools have to beg parents to use the tutoring, with pizza parties, raffle giveaways and the like.

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I'm sure you learned this from an unbiased information source, such as John Stossel... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

Obviously most parents give a damn, regardless of income, but there is a signficant cohort of parents who don't. There is nothing the schools can do about this. If you switched Highland Park and Bloomfield Hills kids [[switched the teachers, facilities, and programs) I bet you would have the same outcomes for both cohorts.

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Then why have schools at all? We've been doing this all wrong. If schooling doesn't affect outcomes, it sounds like a perfectly good libertarian argument for no mandatory schooling at all...

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Originally Posted by Lowell

I do not advocate aimlessly throwing money at a problem. However when a proven highly successful model exists, money will not be wasted. The long term savings will immense.

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Head Start is an excellent program, and we know it works. But that isn't the issue. We have plenty of intensive-early childhood models that work.

The issue is also getting the parental buy-in. A large number of children are eligible for Head Start but their parents don't sign up. That's, in part, why there are such dramatic differences in the student achivement; Head Start is self-selecting.

You can't force parents to do the right thing.

I'll add two things, which I've mentioned before. And this should be obvious to everybody.

You can't change parents.

You can, however, change kids. A little or a lot, but you can change their lives.

Could you have changed my father? An abusive, foul-mouthed, alcoholic who made life miserable most of the time? No way. I saw several people -- social workers, psychiatrists, friends and neighbors -- try to change him, and it always ended in failure. It is very, very hard to change parents at all.

So what is easier? To help their children. You provide a good, safe school with competent teachers. You fund the school so it can provide after-school activities, early-morning activities, field trips, hot lunches, gymnasiums, all things that can engage children and give them ways out. You won't always win, but at least you're giving the kids a chance. I know it helped me to have lots of after-school activities, and, sometimes, just the chance to not be home.

When you bring the parents into the discussion, suddenly we are talking about something that is very, very, very hard to change. We don't have the resources to change the way a whole generation of people think or feel or behave. That's why we instead send their children to schools where we can work to ameliorate ignorance, even if it takes generations, and instill a love of learning that lasts a lifetime. That, with some help, funding and competence, we can do a fair job of.

So when I hear some of you keep talking about the parents, talking about something you cannot change, I think that's a recipe for derailing a discussion about what we CAN change.

I also get the sense that, frankly, you don't really care about the kids anyway. *shrug*

How do you know Highland Park schools don't provide that? Highland Park has more spending per pupil than state average and fewer students per teacher than state average. This whole lawsuit is about test scores and literacy. It's not about hot lunches and the buildings.

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Originally Posted by Shollin

How do you know Highland Park schools don't provide that? Highland Park has more spending per pupil than state average and fewer students per teacher than state average. This whole lawsuit is about test scores and literacy. It's not about hot lunches and the buildings.

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Are you addressing my post, Shollin?

If so, I would say this goes beyond the specific issues surrounding Highland Park and is a more general rant about blaming the parents vs. helping the children. I did not, nor did I ever, mean to accuse Highland Park schools of not providing hot lunches or buildings that do not fall down.

You can lead a horse to water... drinking requires consent and action.

Statements like 'disenfranchised' are not appropriate. It may be very, very difficult -- but if a parent wants their child to get ahead -- there are more and more ways -- in spite of the education industry's self-serving attempts at their monopoly of oppression.

Funny how radicals don't take up this charge --- beyond screaming at charters. As a society, we need to make sure primary education is available to all.

A real radical would question the educational system itself, its origins, those who control it and much more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIva2she5HQ

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

A real radical would question the educational system itself, its origins, those who control it and much more.

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Hence, I advocate decentralized control. Less laws by federal fiat, and more local control.

By that I don't mean a monopolistic school district. I mean individual entities competing to deliver the best education they can deliver. Those who fail, well, they fail. The corruption and waste won't be any worse than what we have today.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Hence, I advocate decentralized control. Less laws by federal fiat, and more local control.

By that I don't mean a monopolistic school district. I mean individual entities competing to deliver the best education they can deliver. Those who fail, well, they fail. The corruption and waste won't be any worse than what we have today.

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Gee, that sure sounds nice. A bunch of competing institutions, and maybe Uncle Sugar to help by offering insured loans through banks to students, perhaps? I wonder what we can expect from such proud plans...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SluE1...eature=related

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

That is why I'm in favor of radical change in schools -- regardless of whose ox is gored. Unions, corporate schooling, schools districts, anyone. We need to allow new methods to flourish. More money spent with the existing commisars of education isn't doing the trick for our children in HP.

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I also think that is something thats needed. There are some isolated models of inner-city school successes across the country. However I would think at those schools there is some level of parental buy-in since they understand that the successful school is most likely their kids last best hope for a successful future.

One idea that I would like to see explored is a public urban Therapeutic/ Military style boarding School.

A lot of these kids have behavioral issues much of which stems from the lack of parenting. The behavioral issues affect their ability to learn. As they get further behind in school the behavioral issues get worse as they act-out more and more.

I believe parenting and learning go hand in hand. So we may need to put these kids in an environment away from there home environment where they can get some parenting to go along with their education.

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Originally Posted by firstandten

I also think that is something thats needed. There are some isolated models of inner-city school successes across the country. However I would think at those schools there is some level of parental buy-in since they understand that the successful school is most likely their kids last best hope for a successful future.

One idea that I would like to see explored is a public urban Therapeutic/ Military style boarding School.

A lot of these kids have behavioral issues much of which stems from the lack of parenting. The behavioral issues affect their ability to learn. As they get further behind in school the behavioral issues get worse as they act-out more and more.

I believe parenting and learning go hand in hand. So we may need to put these kids in an environment away from there home environment where they can get some parenting to go along with their education.

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At least a world where ideas can be tried.

I don't think we want to require students to attend a military academy-style school. But if the parents want that option rather than the current 'traditional' public school -- they should have that option available. And not blocked by the 'powers that be'.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

At least a world where ideas can be tried.

I don't think we want to require students to attend a military academy-style school. But if the parents want that option rather than the current 'traditional' public school -- they should have that option available. And not blocked by the 'powers that be'.

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Who is going to pay for this military academy-style school?

Spending more money is not the answer. Honestly, some of the students are to blame. A lot of them refuse to do anything and/or act like savages.

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Originally Posted by Shollin

How do you know Highland Park schools don't provide that? Highland Park has more spending per pupil than state average and fewer students per teacher than state average. This whole lawsuit is about test scores and literacy. It's not about hot lunches and the buildings.

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Highland Park also has far more special needs kids than the state average.

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Originally Posted by ejames01

Spending more money is not the answer. Honestly, some of the students are to blame. A lot of them refuse to do anything and/or act like savages.

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That's true of any school. Those troublemakers need to be dealt with, NOT used as an excuse to do nothing to the support the big majority of children who are trying to learn under very difficult situations at home, in school and on the way to and from school.

Focus on that big majority of children who still have a chance and keep them from being overwhelmed by the disruptive minority and falling into the abyss; the payback to society will be immense.

It's very easy to dismiss these children who are trying with one-liners like "Spending more money is not the answer" but not provide answers such realistic and proven solutions like Head Start.

As for spending more money, we already are spending more money becasue of the past adn present neglect that has brought on this suit. It is like having a leaking pipe in your house; pay the plumber now or pay immense amounts later for the water damage.

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Originally Posted by ejames01

Spending more money is not the answer. Honestly, some of the students are to blame. A lot of them refuse to do anything and/or act like savages.

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Spending more money on processes that aren't giving you the desired outcomes is not the answer.

Spending more money on processes that could give you the desired outcomes is worth a try.

I've seen it firsthand, where schools have had to bribe kids and parents to participate in the free tutoring available.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

I'm sure you learned this from an unbiased information source, such as John Stossel... :rolleyes:



Then why have schools at all? We've been doing this all wrong. If schooling doesn't affect outcomes, it sounds like a perfectly good libertarian argument for no mandatory schooling at all...

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Originally Posted by firstandten

Spending more money on processes that aren't giving you the desired outcomes is not the answer.

Spending more money on processes that could give you the desired outcomes is worth a try.

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Exactly. To give one example, there is substantial evidence that it would be desirable to divert more money to educating disadvantaged kids ages 0-5, even if that meant spending less on older kids.