Panhandlers in Detroit could face jail time

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Detroit —Panhandlers who ask for change from people who are waiting in line for food, at an ATM or who act overly aggressive could be fined and face jail time under a new city ordinance set to go into effect here next month.

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What the ordinance says

Under Detroit's revised three-page panhandling ordinance, people are allowed to beg except when they:

Force themselves on another person.

Block their way.

Continue to beg after a person reacts negatively to the request.

Touch an individual, or approach or talk to someone in a way that "would cause a reasonable person to fear imminent bodily harm or the commission of a criminal act."

Solicit on property that has a "no solicitation" sign.

Violators face up to a $500 fine and 90 days in jail. The ordinance also spells out "no begging" zones — within 15 feet of a public toilet; automatic teller machine; bus, train or taxi station; a business where people are lined up; or an outside seating area.

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Full story at: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz24EaJsmsB

Where would they get $500 to pay the fine? And what happens when the can't besides the jail time?

terrible idea. Regardless of weather you believe it or not the police have increasingly become a revenue generator. Dangerous waters. This is the opposite of a money maker. Im surprised they didn't pass legislation against giving money to panhandlers. 500 dollar fines instead for people that can afford to pay em.

I would imagine an opposite effect, those that would welcome 90 days heat, food, and dry out time.

Just yet another stupid law.

So they beg for money, and then can get sent to jail with lodging and food all on the taxpayers expense? Doesn't make much sense to me.

I'm going to bet many of these panhandlers have mental illness. Does throwing them in jail really do anything to actually help them? I'm betting many of them would probably welcome a jail sentence.

Ha ha. Does anyone really believe the city of Detroit which can't even spare police officers to respond to real crimes is going to do anything at all with panhandlers. This article is pure comedy.

I agree with many of the other detractors on this thread. However, the biggest waste as far as this ordinance goes is more time is wasted putting another law on the books that won't even come close to being enforced.

Good.

Fuck a bum.

I've had encounters with the really aggressive ones that don't take polite hints.

It probably won't get enforced 99% of the time, but if it gets at least a few of these jackasses to leave people alone when they've already said no then go for it.

Who is going to enforce it? Walking around downtown last Sunday was interesting. Had many encounters, never once saw a cop.
If panhandling is illegal they might as well mug

Agreed that this would be difficult, if not impossible, to enforce.

However, the situation is getting bad in some areas and something needs to be done. There are a few regulars at the corners of Warren and Southfield who are becoming a bit more forceful and belligerent. [[and by regulars, I mean that I've seen them work that intersection for years.)

I agree that overnight accomodation is not the answer but I wonder about maybe throwing them in a lock-up area for 6- 8 hours after a warning to stay away from certain areas. Basically a cell with a cement floor that wouldn't be too comfortable. A glass of water only, no free meals.

My 'hint' is rolling up windows and absolutely NOT responding to them at all. I give to the needy in other ways and as a female I cannot afford to take my hands off the wheel and any reaching into my purse or pocket.

Still, this is a stupid waste of resources. We cannot keep violent offenders and robbers locked up! Now we have extra police to do this sorta of duty and space and more paper work for the jails? Nonsense!

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Originally Posted by brizee

...I've had encounters with the really aggressive ones that don't take polite hints.

It probably won't get enforced 99% of the time, but if it gets at least a few of these jackasses to leave people alone when they've already said no then go for it.

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I believe that this is being enacted to address those "regulars" that a few have mentioned. They're known, but officers have little recourse. I don't see this as an end to those souls lost at the exit ramp.

I have mixed feelings on fining those who pay the pay handlers. Criminalizing charity? bad idea. I was going to mention the "donation boxes" in San Francisco that would allow people to "give" to the homeless. Looks like it didn't work out. http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs...00316/-1/rss01

I blame Engler.

I have been accosted at gas stations and post offices. Unfortunately most of the time the owners have the right to chase them off, but very rarely do.

My two cents:

• This law was passed to give police an option for handling aggressive panhandlers, not as a panacea. It replaces a previous law that was struck down.

• For our economy, its important that people feel safe and comfortable in Detroit; efforts to curb panhandling are welcome, even if incomplete.

1953

How about instead of locking them up which is a waste of resources and time, find some work details for them to do. You work so many days you work off the fine. We need trash pick up grass clippings etc in the roadways and parks.

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Originally Posted by firstandten

How about instead of locking them up which is a waste of resources and time, find some work details for them to do. You work so many days you work off the fine. We need trash pick up grass clippings etc in the roadways and parks.

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I thought about that and it would seem to be fitting punishment and possibly instill some work ethic. But I think if you'd be forcing them to work, you'd still have to provide food and housing + cost of supervision, tools, and transport to work sites

I've learned to respond to bums the same way they approach me. That tends to reinforce the "treat others as you wish to be treated" rule to the ones who aren't suffering some grave mental defect.

There's this guy who panhandles at the light where northbound I75 service drive traffic crosses the freeway towards westbound 8mile. He's an old vet who holds up a cardboard sign, he's always asking for work, and he smiles and waves at you even when you roll up your window and give him dirty looks. 2 winters ago, I pull up behind a car stopped at that light and saw a guy wearing a tie, driving a white Benz roll down his widow and throw a drink on him. It was about 25 degrees outside.

You don't have to hug the bums or give them your money. But for godsakes at least have the decency to politely ignore them if nothing else. They are some of the most vulnerable people in our society, whether or not they choose to be there.

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Originally Posted by detroitsgwenivere

There's this guy who panhandles at the light where northbound I75 service drive traffic crosses the freeway towards westbound 8mile. He's an old vet who holds up a cardboard sign, he's always asking for work, and he smiles and waves at you even when you roll up your window and give him dirty looks. 2 winters ago, I pull up behind a car stopped at that light and saw a guy wearing a tie, driving a white Benz roll down his widow and throw a drink on him. It was about 25 degrees outside.

You don't have to hug the bums or give them your money. But for godsakes at least have the decency to politely ignore them if nothing else. They are some of the most vulnerable people in our society, whether or not they choose to be there.

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"There's this guy..."? I think you're making some big assumptions here. How do you know that the guy in the Mercedes who threw the drink didn't know him from before? How do you know it's not his brother, abandoned son or someone who hired him and had his tools stolen or had something expensive broken while hiring him for work or some other ongoing bad relationship? Someone who just randomly throws drinks at a random person from a stopped Mercedes all dressed up makes no sense at all. Would any normal person do that? No, I don't buy it. I think there was more to it.

I would never do that and wouldn't expect anyone all dressed up from a Mercedes to randomly do that either because, first, if I don't know who he is, I don't know how he's going to respond. But, I'm guessing, being a vet, he's probably trained to respond aggressively from his former military training and living on streets. If it were me, I would be concerned the vet wouldn't come over and put a dent in my car costing over a thousand dollars worth of body work for provoking him. What does he have lose by attacking you? Seriously. He's probably already lost everything, which is why he's out there. What does he care if he loses it and takes you down? Same thing with aggressive panhandlers in downtown. I've had beggars follow me several blocks continually asking for change. I could just imagine what would happen if I threw a hot coffee at him.

I just politely say sorry I have no change. For all I know, he could shank me for it. I can't even imagine a time where I've seen a panhandler in Detroit who didn't give off a vibe that he would yell at me or pounce if I did something to set him off like throw a drink at him.

Your story sounds very rare and really out of the ordinary to make your case and I'm willing to bet there was something more to it. That's not something I've observed and I'm sure most others haven't either. To use that example to challenge the new panhandler law is so outrageous. I can't even go through this thread without having to respond to it.

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Originally Posted by davewindsor

"There's this guy..."? I think you're making some big assumptions here. How do you know that the guy in the Mercedes who threw the drink didn't know him from before? How do you know it's not his brother, abandoned son or someone who hired him and had his tools stolen or had something expensive broken while hiring him for work or some other ongoing bad relationship? Someone who just randomly throws drinks at a random person from a stopped Mercedes all dressed up makes no sense at all. Would any normal person do that? No, I don't buy it. I think there was more to it.

I would never do that and wouldn't expect anyone all dressed up from a Mercedes to randomly do that either because, first, if I don't know who he is, I don't know how he's going to respond. But, I'm guessing, being a vet, he's probably trained to respond aggressively from his former military training and living on streets. If it were me, I would be concerned the vet wouldn't come over and put a dent in my car costing over a thousand dollars worth of body work for provoking him. What does he have lose by attacking you? Seriously. He's probably already lost everything, which is why he's out there. What does he care if he loses it and takes you down? Same thing with aggressive panhandlers in downtown. I've had beggars follow me several blocks continually asking for change. I could just imagine what would happen if I threw a hot coffee at him.

I just politely say sorry I have no change. For all I know, he could shank me for it. I can't even imagine a time where I've seen a panhandler in Detroit who didn't give off a vibe that he would yell at me or pounce if I did something to set him off like throw a drink at him.

Your story sounds very rare and really out of the ordinary to make your case and I'm willing to bet there was something more to it. That's not something I've observed and I'm sure most others haven't either. To use that example to challenge the new panhandler law is so outrageous. I can't even go through this thread without having to respond to it.

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People are cruel, period. To think they aren't makes me question how naive you are. People do shit to people everyday for no reason, to deny so would be foolish on your part.

I usually don’t mind when people ask for money – as a downtown resident I’ve come to expect it and deal with it. I’m always respectful, and I give when I can – depending on how I’m approached. The one thing that still bothers me is when panhandlers enter a restaurant and hit me up for money [[or food). Over the past month I’ve been approached inside of Olga’s, Rub Pub, and just last night at Coaches Corner. It’s bad enough to get pounced on when you enter/leave a restaurant, but when you’re having dinner with your family, and they stand over your table – that’s crossing the line. In these cases, a little police intervention is not a bad idea.

Sounds like a very reasonable law. It doesn't prohibit panhandling. It does prohibit offensive behavior. Not a lot different than the 'do not call' law.

I totally agree with this. I have no problem with some panhandling. Many of these people are yes, scammers. The people with mental issues I feel for and wish the state would take better care of them or force them into some type of shelter. They are not of sound mind to make these decisions themselves. Some of them are real assholes though. I had an interview in Campus Martius and one came right up to us begging, we ignored and were called white devils and sat through about 4 minutes of cussing. Wish I would have had some pepper spray for this .......

When I was a child I learned from my mother the concept "There but for the grace of God go I." So I don't have a need to over-react to panhandlers who ask for change on the street.


However, I never give money to panhandlers. To me it's more effective to donate to the Capuchan Soup Kitchen or the Open Door at Fort Street Presbyterian Church.


When I'm asked for change [[which happens almost daily as I walk through downtown), I look the person in the eye and simply reply, "Thank you sir [[or ma'am), but not today." I don't engage in any further conversation and I just keep walking. Rarely does the panhandler say anything aggressive after that.


I do need to add, the street people around Union Street seem to be much more aggressive than those in the CBD and Greektown areas which are where I'm more likely to be walking. Also I don't buy gas at stations where street people just hang out.

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Originally Posted by superduperman

People are cruel, period. To think they aren't makes me question how naive you are. People do shit to people everyday for no reason, to deny so would be foolish on your part.

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I dare you to throw a drink at a random beggar. I double dare you. If you think they are not going to assault you in this city for it or kick a dent in your car, then that is very foolish and naive reasoning on your part. It's just common sense not to do that. It has nothing to do with cruelty.

Homeless are moving into the suburbs. I've seen them standing in the median at 16 and Van Dyke and outside McDonalds. The guy in the median was wandering into traffic. He didn't last long. Sterling Heights police probably escorted him back to 8 Mile.

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Originally Posted by davewindsor

I....wouldn't expect anyone all dressed up from a Mercedes to randomly do that

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But, I'm guessing, being a vet, he's probably trained to respond aggressively from his former military training and living on streets.

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For all I know, he could shank me for it. I can't even imagine a time where I've seen a panhandler in Detroit who didn't give off a vibe that he would yell at me or pounce if I did something to set him off like throw a drink at him.

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That's not something I've observed and I'm sure most others haven't either.

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I think you're making some big assumptions here

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

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How do you know that the guy in the Mercedes who threw the drink didn't know him from before?

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How the hell should I know?! I'm just telling you what I saw at the intersection. Was I supposed to flag him down and ask him, " Hey asshole, why'd you throw your drink on that bum?" Maybe I just assumed that Benzie was a pistol toten, job creatin, rightwing nut job from Oakland County down here in the "warzone" to pick up his weekly allowance of powder. Who knows what THEY are capable of....

But, probably not, right Dave?

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To use that example to challenge the new panhandler law is so outrageous. I can't even go through this thread without having to respond to it.

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Ummmm, that's funny. I dont remember writing anything that challenged the panhandler law in one way or another. Time to invest in some reading glasses Dave.

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Your story sounds very rare and really out of the ordinary to make your case and I'm willing to bet there was something more to it.

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Maybe it's just rare that its ever reported. I mean who gives a shit about a worthless, violent, liquor addled bum, am I right? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by davewindsor

I dare you to throw a drink at a random beggar. I double dare you. If you think they are not going to assault you in this city for it or kick a dent in your car, then that is very foolish and naive reasoning on your part. It's just common sense not to do that. It has nothing to do with cruelty.

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You dare me? Really? I'm done.....

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Originally Posted by detroitsgwenivere

Ummmm, that's funny. I dont remember writing anything that challenged the panhandler law in one way or another. Time to invest in some reading glasses Dave.

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Well then stay on topic instead of going off on a tangent because the OP was about the new panhandler law. So, the discussion is whether it's a good law or not with reasons why it should be supported or challenged.

I like the law.

It still allows folks to beg, but it keeps beggars away from captive audiences, and let's them know that "no" means "no".

I've only had issues with a couple beggars. The vast majority of beggars I see downtown already comply with this law.

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Originally Posted by davewindsor

Well then stay on topic instead of going off on a tangent because the OP was about the new panhandler law. So, the discussion is whether it's a good law or not with reasons why it should be supported or challenged.

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I am on topic. The law is addressing aggressive panhandlers. Im pointing out that not all panhandlers are aggressive, but there are some "panhandlees" that sure are.

And im not sure how a short 2 paragraph post about something i saw that bothered me at an intersection is a rant, and your lengthy admonishment to me isn't. But if you say so:confused:

If I had to place a judgement on an ordinance I havent had an opportunity to read yet, I would say that I'm in support of it's intent [[on it's face) as long as there is equal enforcement of those who are needlessly aggressive to panhandlers. Fair is fair.

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Originally Posted by detroitsgwenivere

I am on topic. The law is addressing aggressive panhandlers. Im pointing out that not all panhandlers are aggressive, but there are some "panhandlees" that sure are.

And im not sure how a short 2 paragraph post about something i saw that bothered me at an intersection is a rant, and your lengthy admonishment to me isn't. But if you say so:confused:

If I had to place a judgement on an ordinance I havent had an opportunity to read yet, I would say that I'm in support of it's intent [[on it's face) as long as there is equal enforcement of those who are needlessly aggressive to panhandlers. Fair is fair.

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I think he was saying that this could not have possibly happened, not in this world and if it did, the panhandler most likely brought it on himself because him and the guy in the benz had prior business together and the panhandler tried to back stabbed the guy in the benz and that this was simply the universes way of balancing everything back out, get it?

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Originally Posted by wolverine

I thought about that and it would seem to be fitting punishment and possibly instill some work ethic. But I think if you'd be forcing them to work, you'd still have to provide food and housing + cost of supervision, tools, and transport to work sites

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Thats true there would be costs involved in even doing a work detail. I thought it would be better than them just laying up in jail and not being able to re-coupe any of the cost of them being jailed.

That being said the panhandlers seem to be more aggressive and something needs to be done to curb that. A few years ago I parked my car in a lot downtown that had no attendant. A guy was accosting the other people that parked their cars saying he would watch their cars for them. I know that game of course but I was watching the other people turn him down, so I did as well. He must have realized that people were blowing him off so he decided to insinuate to me when I refused him that my car would be damaged. This dude pushed the wrong button with that statement and I told him if my car is damaged I would track him down and kick his ass and if my wife wasn't there to cool me off I don't know how this incident would have ended since I turned completely around and started walking toward him as I was making my statement. Something like that is out of character for me and I usually don't have that kind of problems with panhandlers in fact a lot of times I give them money, it depends on how they approach me.
But I find they are getting more aggressive, so there needs to be better guidelines on what they can and cannot do.

In Chicago the panhandlers are right off the expressway's begging for money. It's crazy.

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Originally Posted by Brian1979

In Chicago the panhandlers are right off the expressway's begging for money. It's crazy.

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They sit on milk crates on the left side of just about every entrance/exit ramp on 75/375 from Downtown to Warren Ave.

..what about using some abandoned school buildings as homeless shelters/social-service hubs..

..the old Michigan Bell building off the lodge freeway is due to open soon [[if not already) by Neighborhood Service Org., as a homeless apartment bldg./service center..

When Jesus was preaching through the Galilee, He told the people to give alms to the poor. Most of the people give. Then this poor woman in rags give her last coin to the offering basket. Jesus says, "She has giving more than all of you."


People need help, even that they don't need help. Give them
food, clothes, shelter, job and medical, and mind spiritual reprograming to get their lives back on track. Putting a cap on the needy is not going to make them go away. Give them hope and begging will stop.

Jesus sez... "It's is more blessed to give them to recieve."

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Originally Posted by Danny

When Jesus was preaching through the Galilee, He told the people to give alms to the poor. Most of the people give. Then this poor woman in rags give her last coin to the offering basket. Jesus says, "She has giving more than all of you."


People need help, even that they don't need help. Give them
food, clothes, shelter, job and medical, and mind spiritual reprograming to get their lives back on track. Putting a cap on the needy is not going to make them go away. Give them hope and begging will stop.

Jesus sez... "It's is more blessed to give them to recieve."

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God also ordered thousands of people to be killed. What's the point?

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Originally Posted by Shollin

God also ordered thousands of people to be killed. What's the point?

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God is merciful. If you're talking about God of the Holy Bible, God always sends a prophet to warn people to change their bad morals and wickedness before ordering them to be killed or a town destroyed. If they change their bad ways and repent from the warning, they will be saved; otherwise, they will be destroyed. See Jonah 3:4 of the Old Testament or google how the Prophet Jonah warned Nineveh and how a town repented and changed from their bad morals and God was merciful.

Unless you're talking about false prophets, false judges, and false Kings, which doesn't count.

But, I think the previous poster was talking about the teachings of Jesus, not the words of God. Who did Jesus order to be killed?

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Originally Posted by Danny

When Jesus was preaching through the Galilee, He told the people to give alms to the poor. Most of the people give. Then this poor woman in rags give her last coin to the offering basket. Jesus says, "She has giving more than all of you."


People need help, even that they don't need help. Give them
food, clothes, shelter, job and medical, and mind spiritual reprograming to get their lives back on track. Putting a cap on the needy is not going to make them go away. Give them hope and begging will stop.

Jesus sez... "It's is more blessed to give them to recieve."

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If Jesus returned and preached through Detroit he might tell the people to give to the Panhandles so they could pay their fines;and give caps to the other needy. We would then all be walking round downtown in caps. The first cap to be given out should definitely go to the lady that gave her last coin. I like the updating of the needs of the modern downtrodden to include "job and medical"; that's a really nice touch that didn't enter into the picture in biblical times.
Of course we also know now that recieving four years of "Hope" is no blessing either.

It's about time. The majority of the panhandlers are not homeless at all. A guy by the name of TC has been doing this scam for at least 20 years and can get very aggresive. I'm sick and tired of seeing the same faces at different venues in the city. They say then need bus fare, food, food for their families, etc. If you really want to help the homeless or people who are hungry donate money to one of the many organizations who can help them.

Those who think we need to be nice to panhandlers don't understand what's really going on out there.

Give to panhandlers, and you're mostly either feeding a habit or you're giving to someone who's not truly needy.

So you're encouraging drug / alcohol use.

And you're encouraging a behavior that discourages redevelopment of our city at the same time.

Go ahead, if you don't care about people or Detroit.

Or go find a good charity. Consider the Capuchin Soup Kitchen: http://cskdetroit.org/. That money will get to someone needy -- not someone manipulative.

I think Detroit needs to create a kind of work camp system to deal with the homeless. A work detail would be created to help clean up the city and those who would be part of it would be paid minimum wage to clear weeds, clean grabage, board up buildings etc. If authorities encounter a homeless person begging then they should evaluate the person to determine if they are fit to work. If they are unable to work do to health problems then put them in a hospital and treat them, if they are fit to work then give them the choice to either participate in the program or leave the city. I know that groups like the ACLU are all about how begging is protected speech, but what they are not taking into account is everyone elses right not to be accosted by someone who could be dangerous for all we know. I for one feel that I have a right to be able to walk down a street and not have 5 people ask for money and keep asking no matter how many times I say no.

I want to make clear that I do feel sorry for the people on the street and I know life is hard for them, but on the other hand they need to give us some space too. If they were sitting on the sidewalk with a can asking for handouts that is one thing, but more and more often they get in your way and try to block you and I honestly feel like I wish I had a cattle prod to zap this one guy who hangs out on fort street and just keeps going "sir, sir, sir, can you spare some money for a coney?, sir sir sir, please have a heart, sir sir sir, asshole"

If we want the city to have any chance of a comeback, we need to make our streets a safe and friendly area for people to be on, because we are not going to attract any kind of tourists or shoppers if they are being hastled at every corner.

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Originally Posted by Shollin

God also ordered thousands of people to be killed. What's the point?

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Yes, God did ordered thousands of people killed for their disobediance against him for a purpose of their sins!

God is still love, joy, peace, salvation, grace and a forgiver. But he's also a judge, jealous god [[only against those who worships idols.)

The main point is give or be judged.

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Originally Posted by davewindsor

Who did Jesus order to be killed?

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No one period! because he wants mankind to be saved and redeemed from the sins so they have enter the Kingdom of God and keep their souls out of Gates of Hell!

Over the years I've lived downtown, I've had hundreds of encounters with homeless panhandlers. I know most of the regulars on my block by name and have spent hours talking with many of them. The fact is, many are very aggressive. I got to know one guy very well, gave him money and food several times and even a few pairs of shoes. One day, he got very aggressive with me and wouldn't let me pass. From that point on I tried to avoid him. The next time he came up to me, he went to shake my hand and attempted to steal my watch [[which isn't worth squat).

I can't tell you how many times I've been out with my girlfriend and they will harass us for blocks or say obscene things. I'm always polite until they become aggressive, at which point, you have to let them know that you can be dangerous if threatened. It has gotten to the point that it is hard to walk 10 feet in the CBD without being harassed. Some of the panhandlers run scams. There's even a male/female couple who works together with different stories every time about paying for their kid's college fund. There's another guy who stole a nurse's outfit and pretends to be broke down. There's the favorite line about needing gas money or being from out of town. These people simply piss me off because I know they are lying. I never give them anything.

I feel bad for the ones with severe mental illness. Their situations are very unfortunate and I have compassion. I even feel bad for the ones with addictions, and will even give them money or leftover food sometimes, even if I know I am being an enabler. But, the bums who are foul-mouthed jackasses who think they can intimidate me into giving them my loose change can F off.

After many years of putting up with this, I can honestly say that the problem has gotten worse in the CBD and midtown. Many of the new "bums" even seem to be more of thugs than the disheveled needy folks I am used to seeing. For this reason, I have stopped giving altogether. Hell, that spare change is useful for feeding the parking meter, and I often enjoy eating my leftovers.

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Originally Posted by BrushStart

Over the years I've lived downtown, I've had hundreds of encounters with homeless panhandlers. I know most of the regulars on my block by name and have spent hours talking with many of them. The fact is, many are very aggressive. I got to know one guy very well, gave him money and food several times and even a few pairs of shoes. One day, he got very aggressive with me and wouldn't let me pass. From that point on I tried to avoid him. The next time he came up to me, he went to shake my hand and attempted to steal my watch [[which isn't worth squat).

I can't tell you how many times I've been out with my girlfriend and they will harass us for blocks or say obscene things. I'm always polite until they become aggressive, at which point, you have to let them know that you can be dangerous if threatened. It has gotten to the point that it is hard to walk 10 feet in the CBD without being harassed. Some of the panhandlers run scams. There's even a male/female couple who works together with different stories every time about paying for their kid's college fund. There's another guy who stole a nurse's outfit and pretends to be broke down. There's the favorite line about needing gas money or being from out of town. These people simply piss me off because I know they are lying. I never give them anything.

I feel bad for the ones with severe mental illness. Their situations are very unfortunate and I have compassion. I even feel bad for the ones with addictions, and will even give them money or leftover food sometimes, even if I know I am being an enabler. But, the bums who are foul-mouthed jackasses who think they can intimidate me into giving them my loose change can F off.

After many years of putting up with this, I can honestly say that the problem has gotten worse in the CBD and midtown. Many of the new "bums" even seem to be more of thugs than the disheveled needy folks I am used to seeing. For this reason, I have stopped giving altogether. Hell, that spare change is useful for feeding the parking meter, and I often enjoy eating my leftovers.

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I lived and worked within the CBD for years, and this mirrors my feelings and experience precisely.

The 'shaking hand' part is particularly annoying.

I saw on mlive that the Michigan Supreme Court said recently that begging is free speech. And that's OK with me. What's not OK is physically aggressive actions, abusive speech, and poor personal grooming.

It's been my experience that SOME panhandles and scammers know [[or think they do) who to really PUT THE PRESSURE to... I've seen them profile one person for the super-deluxe, relentless, guilt-inducing, or near curse out, shake down! Two minutes later ignore the next person[[s), or modify their tactics and/ or move on to the next from only a minor rebuke.

A comedian once remarked on getting into the 'Matrix' on panhandlers to get them 'up off' him...:cool:... Approaches vary - mine is fairly calm with just the 'look' that usually suffices with a 'firm' no thank you, or a roll up of my window if required. Rarely is my car touched or does someone impede my walking as I've seen happen to others.

You really want as little interaction as possible, should things take a nasty edge... IMO.

Still dragnet policing is crazy. Especially with the limited resources... does the city hope to collect payments from the fines?