Detroit Bulk Storage renews fight to Store Pet Coke on Riverfont

The controversy over the storage of pet coke along the Detroit River shoreline continues to percolate with Detroit Bulk Storage petitioning for set up storage in River Rouge, raising concern in Windsor and River Rouge.

From the Windsor Star:

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An application to store petroleum coke on the Detroit River across from Brighton Beach was filed by Detroit Bulk Storage, but a recommendation to deny the permit was handed down by the state environmental regulator.

Detroit Bulk Storage wants to use a riverfront location in Ecorse near River Rouge for petcoke storage. The proposed site sits in between LaSalle’s Morton Drive and Sprucewood Avenue.

MDEQ is holding a public comment period on its recommendation for Detroit Bulk Storage until June 25. A public hearing will also be held by MDEQ on June 25 in the auditorium of River Rouge high school.

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Looking at the Detroit Bulk Storage website makes me curious about why pet coke alone seems to be the issue rather than the broader one of all bulk storage. Part of the argument is now that the pet coke should have to be covered. But what about other bulk storage? Back in the 90's a concrete reprocessing operation set up in Highland Park. It wasn't long before Oakland Ave. was being silted over from dust created.

These folks won't quit will they??? I am having a hard time understanding why Detroit even has petcoke. isn't this from tar sands? Where around here are they refining that way? If it is worth their while to try and store it here, then why is it worth the transport costs to get it here?

The pet-coke is being produced at the Refinery in Detroit. The tar sands oil is currently being refined there. The pet-coke has to be sent over seas to be burned. The EPA won't allow it to be burned in the U.S.

And in response to Lowells question. The problem with Pet-Coke is, it's seen as being way more toxic that the components used in making concrete.

Is this from the monster Marathon refinery that ate Oakwood? The whole reason for expanding that place so outrageously, I'm told, was to refine tar sands oil.

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Originally Posted by ndavies

... The pet-coke has to be sent over seas to be burned. The EPA won't allow it to be burned in the U.S....

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Good thing we don't all breathe the same air on this planet. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by EastsideAl

Is this from the monster Marathon refinery that ate Oakwood? The whole reason for expanding that place so outrageously, I'm told, was to refine tar sands oil.

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You were told correctly. The big,tall, oil-derrick looking things are called delayed cokers, and they make, among other things, coke out of heavy oils like tar sands.

Except that their purpose is not to make coke - coke is the byproduct or waste material.

There are two points I would like to make about this petcoke storage situation. One is,
one of the overseas places that it would be shipped to is China. China is getting into
fracking now after seeing the U.S. and Canadian success at this. That means that not
too long from now China may not want so much petcoke from the U.S. That would
mean that we might want to store more and more of it here until we come to some better alternative. It will cost us just a bit more for gas and make Marathon just a bit less
competitive, but putting the petcoke into railcars immediately upon generation at the
delayed coker and taking it far away from civilization would be better. I am not at all
saying that would be good.

Another point is that petcoke may be more hazardous than most people
would think. There is a study mentioned on the NOAA website about the
toxic effects of the crude oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico:

http://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/storie...rine_fish.html

The PAHs mentioned in the study are also found in petcoke I believe. More
research probably needs to be done but this is a yellow flag for storing petcoke
where it may be harmful.
I expect that it is also a really uncleanable and damaging substance if it drifts into
and on your building. [[I have actual experience of activated charcoal and raw
coal dust rather than petcoke). Should we decide to store it in cities buildings
that would be affected should be bought out in advance for a very fair price that
allows the occupants to find housing elsewhere, and then these buildings should be
moved if valuable or destroyed.

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Originally Posted by Jimaz

Good thing we don't all breathe the same air on this planet. :rolleyes:

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Air pollution is largely local/regional. It doesn't necessarily disperse globally in an equal fashion. Even at the county level, you can have a huge difference from one county to the next in air quality as a result of local emission sources.

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Originally Posted by ndavies

And in response to Lowells question. The problem with Pet-Coke is, it's seen as being way more toxic that the components used in making concrete.

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Yeah I know that, I am just surprised that they are sending it to Detroit to be refined. If that $h!t gets into the Great Lakes, it is going to damage all the work being done to clean up areas like Lake Erie or the Humbug Marsh.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

I am just surprised that they are sending it to Detroit to be refined.

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They're sending it here because Marathon is buying. It's cheap, and there are already pipelines that bring oil from Alberta through Michigan. In fact, one of them owned by Enbridge is the one that ruptured and contaminated the Kalamazoo river a few years ago, with the same diluted oil sands crude that is being processed in Detroit now. Coke getting into the Great Lakes is the least of our worries - if Enbridge or TransCanada have a Great Leak on any of their lines, the Great Lakes ecosystem is fubar'd.

Attachment 25413
Koch Industries tries to troll Jon Stewart with ad bias, the Daily Show is there to show no mercy

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Jon Stewart tonight welcomed a new Daily Show advertiser: Koch Industries. And by “welcomed,” I mean mercilessly mocked and derided and will probably make them rethink taking out ad time on Comedy Central in the first place.

Stewart loved the imagery of people “working in a smile factory” and surmised that the Koch brothers are just trying to reach “our audience of not-yet-dying-off voters.” He mockingly asked, “If they were evil, would a baby agree to appear in one of their advertisements?”

And then Stewart aired a response ad to air a fuller story of the Kochs, with choice lines like “if there’s a way to monetize your thoughts, we’ll do it” and “Koch Industries: bending the democratic process to our will since 1980.”

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• DailyMotion.com/Stewaaart

What I am finding is according to the EPA is that there is hardly any toxins omitted harmful to human or marine.

http://www.epa.gov/hpv/pubs/summarie.../c12563rr2.pdf

They burn it in place of coal in power plants,mix it with concrete to lower the costs.

The thread of lower gas prices connects directly to this,and this is the byproduct allowing for the cheaper oil coming out of Canada.

Expect the supply to triple once and if the Keystone pipeline comes online.

So what is it we want? We want cheap fuel but not in the form of oil by products,coal emissions,and now pet coke.Everything has its drawbacks and the negative sides and it boils down to what do we want? Everything we touch in daily life required some kind of fuel to produce it.

Can somebody post a link that disputes the EPA PDF and proves it is toxic?

The EPA gets bought by big business daily. Your government will not protect you.
It's a game of economics and if the argument is not cost effective, it looses, every time.

We share an International border and waterway, which is rather unique in the USA.
Big Business needs limits, boundaries, constraints, to prevent profits over riding health risks

DTE Energy spokesperson Randi Berris has confirmed that the power company did use pet coke from the Detroit refinery in tests at their Monroe coal plant downriver

http://www.stillscenes.com/wp-conten...assinger_2.jpg

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Originally Posted by Willi

The EPA gets bought by big business daily. Your government will not protect you.
It's a game of economics and if the argument is not cost effective, it looses, every time.

We share an International border and waterway, which is rather unique in the USA.
Big Business needs limits, boundaries, constraints, to prevent profits over riding health risks

DTE Energy spokesperson Randi Berris has confirmed that the power company did use pet coke from the Detroit refinery in tests at their Monroe coal plant downriver

http://www.stillscenes.com/wp-conten...assinger_2.jpg

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I do not need the gov to protect me.The same argument could apply for anything.

This is what the other side of the shared border had to say about it.
http://blogs.windsorstar.com/news/pe...s-state-agency

So what is worse misinformation supplied by the general public or the gov,the best way is to research and make ones informed decision based on facts instead of emotion.


So for my information I posted links the showed one side of the facts and would like to see the opposing side of facts.

DTE did try a test coke run from marathon and said if in the future if they continued they would purchase from marathon because they were responsible verses Koch.I guess that would be a matter of opinion.

It has a high SULFER content and scrubbers are needed, must be in good working order, in order for the power plant to use it, with zero pollution.
It is a last resort, a futile substitute.

http://business.financialpost.com/20..._lsa=a3a4-7fa3

We get enough mercury and other poisons from the power plants right now, why add more ?

EPA works off of tax money, and if no money exists in the accounts, we get no protection.
Higher Taxes, more protection, more testing, more field agents, more lab techs, etc, etc.

Residents get the short stick, every time in USA

PAHs are a group of over 100 different chemicals formed during the incomplete burning of coal, oil and gas, garbage, or other organic substances and are one of the top 10 hazardous substances on the U.S. Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry.

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Originally Posted by Willi

It has a high SULFER content and scrubbers are needed, must be in good working order, in order for the power plant to use it, with zero pollution.

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But we aren't talking about burning it, we're talking about storing it. Is there any evidence that inhaling it in the observed concentrations is harmful? I haven't found any studies or evidence showing this.

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Originally Posted by JBMcB

But we aren't talking about burning it, we're talking about storing it. Is there any evidence that inhaling it in the observed concentrations is harmful? I haven't found any studies or evidence showing this.

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I've inhaled coke before and I'm still here.

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Originally Posted by JBMcB

But we aren't talking about burning it, we're talking about storing it. Is there any evidence that inhaling it in the observed concentrations is harmful? I haven't found any studies or evidence showing this.

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You want to be inhaling all the dust that was coming off that thing? Or put up with the occasional dust cloud on really windy days then let's put it in your neighborhood and debate whether there is any evidence it's harmful.

http://archive.freep.com/article/201...Detroit-houses

http://www.mlive.com/business/detroi...oleum_cok.html

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Originally Posted by MSUguy

You want to be inhaling all the dust that was coming off that thing? Or put up with the occasional dust cloud on really windy days then let's put it in your neighborhood and debate whether there is any evidence it's harmful.

http://archive.freep.com/article/201...Detroit-houses

http://www.mlive.com/business/detroi...oleum_cok.html

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Please do not try to bring rational thought to the conversation. Don't you know Tar Sands and all oil extraction, processing, use -- and I guess all commerce, free trade with Candada, and business in general are all bad. We don't need truth, we just need a slogan to accomplish the goal 'By Any Means Necessary'. The 'end' justifies. And our hearts are pure. Screw the poor who want jobs for their kids, we already have our union job. The purity of the environment is too sacred to risk for you. Do you think the EPA actually regulates things? No, they just rubber stamp. No need for regulation. We decide what is bad. We know it when we see it.

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Originally Posted by MSUguy

You want to be inhaling all the dust that was coming off that thing? Or put up with the occasional dust cloud on really windy days then let's put it in your neighborhood and debate whether there is any evidence it's harmful.

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So I'm guessing you have no proof that petcoke dust is any more harmful than anything else, since you're appealing to some sort of emotional/justice response than logic.

Also, you're changing the argument into a question of zoning. Looks like they dropped some lofts in the middle of a light industrial/commercial zone, right?

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Originally Posted by JBMcB

So I'm guessing you have no proof that petcoke dust is any more harmful than anything else, since you're appealing to some sort of emotional/justice response than logic.

Also, you're changing the argument into a question of zoning. Looks like they dropped some lofts in the middle of a light industrial/commercial zone, right?

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It's not logical to think inhaling what is basically coal dust in bad for your health? But yes there has been studies done, and not surprisingly it they found it's not really good for your health.

How am changing the argument? The residents where they're before they were storing the coke




First, the MDEQ most certainly did find that there are health threats from petroleum coke, stating that “Human exposure to fine particulate matter [[PM) emissions from petcoke storage piles, at sufficiently high concentrations and durations of exposure, could cause respiratory and cardiovascular effects characteristic of PM inhalation exposures.” In other words, inhaling pet coke dust is bad for your lungs and heart.The animal study of pet coke relied upon by both the EPA and MDEQ in their analyses of petcoke found “irreversible respiratory effects,” specifically chronic inflammation of the lungs and increased lung weights, “at all concentrations tested” [[emphasis added).
MDEQ also concluded that petcoke dust is no more toxic than dust generally in terms of other health impacts like cancer. But there are at least two good reasons to be particularly concerned about petroleum coke compared to other materials stored at industrial sites:....

• Petroleum coke is more prone to becoming airborne than other materialsbecause it contains a higher amount of fine silt than substances like gravel or sand – so people are more likely to be exposed to higher levels of it, increasing the chance of lung and heart impacts.This point was recently made in a study conducted by CDM Smith, a global consulting firm, for the City of Chicago. As summarized by the City, the study showed that "due to its high silt content,petcoke was found to have much higher overall emissions than other bulk materials and, therefore, greater air quality impacts from outdoor storage." [[quoting the City’s Response to Comments for its public health regulations, emphasis added)
• Not all other forms of dust are piled 4 to 5 stories high next to residential neighborhoods like the pet coke in the Calumet and Detroit areas - this proximity again increases exposure and so the risk of lung and heart impacts.

http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/mg...raight_on.html

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Originally Posted by MSUguy

It's not logical to think inhaling what is basically coal dust in bad for your health? But yes there has been studies done, and not surprisingly it they found it's not really good for your health.

How am changing the argument? The residents where they're before they were storing the coke




First, the MDEQ most certainly did find that there are health threats from petroleum coke, stating that “Human exposure to fine particulate matter [[PM) emissions from petcoke storage piles, at sufficiently high concentrations and durations of exposure, could cause respiratory and cardiovascular effects characteristic of PM inhalation exposures.” In other words, inhaling pet coke dust is bad for your lungs and heart.The animal study of pet coke relied upon by both the EPA and MDEQ in their analyses of petcoke found “irreversible respiratory effects,” specifically chronic inflammation of the lungs and increased lung weights, “at all concentrations tested” [[emphasis added).
MDEQ also concluded that petcoke dust is no more toxic than dust generally in terms of other health impacts like cancer. But there are at least two good reasons to be particularly concerned about petroleum coke compared to other materials stored at industrial sites:....

• Petroleum coke is more prone to becoming airborne than other materialsbecause it contains a higher amount of fine silt than substances like gravel or sand – so people are more likely to be exposed to higher levels of it, increasing the chance of lung and heart impacts.This point was recently made in a study conducted by CDM Smith, a global consulting firm, for the City of Chicago. As summarized by the City, the study showed that "due to its high silt content,petcoke was found to have much higher overall emissions than other bulk materials and, therefore, greater air quality impacts from outdoor storage." [[quoting the City’s Response to Comments for its public health regulations, emphasis added)
• Not all other forms of dust are piled 4 to 5 stories high next to residential neighborhoods like the pet coke in the Calumet and Detroit areas - this proximity again increases exposure and so the risk of lung and heart impacts.

http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/mg...raight_on.html

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Your fighting a impossible argument. What we have here is right wing nut jobs basically saying that particulates are not carcinogenic whenever they are not the ones inhaling them. They will never be convinced otherwise no matter how much simple logic you use.

P.S. Sweet victory on new years day MSUguy