Detroit budget proposal would cut $52 million from police, fire

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120412/METRO01/204120415/Detroit-budget-proposal-would-cut-52-million-from-police-fire?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

There is minimal protection now, long response times because there is no manpower, firefighters working overtime to the extent that it is now dangerous to themselves and others [[due to fatigue), Police coverage is slow....what will happen now if they go through with these cuts?

Many departments are left unscathed. Some departments should be closed. Why would a City cut emergency responders? If someone can answer this question, I'd love to know the answer. These City leaders need to get the hell out of the CAY building because they are inept buffoons!

The officers on the street need to be the #1 priority. The upper management is basically useless and earns a lot more in salaries. Cut back on administrators and put the priority where it should be.

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Originally Posted by Buy American

These City leaders need to get the hell out of the CAY building because they are inept buffoons!

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It's the folks in Lansing who are utlimately dictating these cuts, so I guess under your logic they're also inept buffoons and need to get the hell out of the Capitol Building!!!

If I recall correctly, 2/3 of the city's budget is dedicated to the police and fire departments. Cuts to these departments, thus, we're inevitable under the agreement.

yes, let's cut public safety beyond the bare bones that it is now, then hire a private company to take over police, fire and ambulance service. What could possibly go wrong?

Emergency responders will also have to be cut.

However, they need to keep in mind that government has some CORE services it provides, that being police, fire, water, and waste.

Other areas should be cut a lot harder [[percentage-wise) than the core services.

This board is pretty funny sometimes. Everyone clamors for "necessary" spending cuts, talks about how they won't be painful at all and in fact they'll magically cause sunshine and roses and long-term fiscal sustainability to sprout all over the city! Then the actual list of spending cuts comes out, and everybody shits a brick. "What? You mean core services are being cut? I just meant we should cut buses for poor people and lay off a bunch of 'administrators' whose jobs must not be important because I don't intuitively understand what they do!"

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Originally Posted by rb336

yes, let's cut public safety beyond the bare bones that it is now, then hire a private company to take over police, fire and ambulance service. What could possibly go wrong?

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I hear Keystone Korporation has a competitive offer...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8jphxpi1ro

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Originally Posted by Buy American

Many departments are left unscathed. Some departments should be closed.

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Which ones. I'm assuming that you have gone through the 400+ page pdf line by line and identified [[a) which departments are left unscathed and [[b) determined which should be closed.

If so, I would love to hear your thoughts on the two.

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Why would a City cut emergency responders? If someone can answer this question, I'd love to know the answer.

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Because they are the largest percent of the budget. Nobody wants to see these cuts but achieving financially stability by cutting from the smaller departments won't get the city in the financial situation it needs to be in.

The proposed budget is $1.2 Billion. Of that, it appears at first glance that the FD and DPD represent 41% of total spending

DFD: $149 Million [[$408,000 per day)
DPD: $339 Million [[$929,000 per day)

To say that DFD and DPD are being slashed to the bone and shouldn't get hit with cuts is disingenious if you have any expectation or hope of achieving financial stability.

I think the bigger question is 'What are we getting from our more than $900,000 per day spent on police. Given the poor response times, limited numbers of officers, etc I'd like to know where this upwards of $1MM daily expenditure is going.

[/QUOTE] These City leaders need to get the hell out of the CAY building because they are inept buffoons![/QUOTE]

So what recommendations would you make.

They haven't even picked the review board yet. This is just the current administration doing what they should have been doing for the past 10yrs.
None of means anything at this point.

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Originally Posted by Wheels

They haven't even picked the review board yet. This is just the current administration doing what they should have been doing for the past 10yrs.
None of means anything at this point.

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However, since the agreement is currently binding, no financial decision can go into effect until the review board approves it, whenever they're appointed.

So we do at least have SOME time to let all of this settle.

So to better facilitate the discussion with a little information to back it up I have grabbed the 2010-2011 expenditures and the proposed budget for each department from the PDF [[I figure 15 minutes of my time is worth having actual numbers for the discussion).

There are 37 departments in the budget [[some include grant monies, some are revenue generating and some are not, I believe, direct city budget like sewage and water).

The numbers are as follows [[Anyone know how to upload an excel file?):

	2010 Actual	Proposed	Change
10 AIRPORT 1	3,462,944	0	-100%
11 ARTS 4	3,200	0	-100%
12 BUDGET 5	2,314,432	2,023,517	-13%
13 BUILDINGS & SAFETY ENVIRONMENTAL 7	37,331,751	23,135,868	-38%
18 DEBT SERVICE 12	134,690,100	74,426,582	-45%
19 DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS 14	165,237,987	101,246,334	-39%
20 DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 46	259,575,275	142,988,698	-45%
21 DETROIT WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT DEPARTMENT 55	130,490,160	0	-100%
23 FINANCE 97	38,220,631	32,699,691	-14%
24 FIRE 102	200,318,245	159,954,156	-20%
25 DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND WELLNESS PROMOTION 110	79,719,789	0	-100%
28 HUMAN RESOURCES 183	14,399,279	8,007,951	-44%
29 HUMAN RIGHTS 187	871,003	0	-100%
30 HUMAN SERVICES 189	102,176,857	0	-100%
31 INFORMATION & TECHNOLOGY SERVICES 222	20,623,692	14,278,267	-31%
32 LAW 224	18,312,178	8,631,938	-53%
33 MAYOR'S OFFICE 226	9,488,527	3,953,534	-58%
34 MUNICIPAL PARKING 230	32,855,384	19,214,738	-42%
35 NON-DEPARTMENTAL 234	871,347,891	436,018,126	-50%
36 PLANNING & DEVELOPMENT 255	94,820,877	45,989,612	-51%
37 POLICE 306	467,152,601	339,593,842	-27%
38 PUBLIC LIGHTING 339	61,338,765	57,283,938	-7%
39 RECREATION 344	20,989,265	12,268,611	-42%
41 WATER 357	603,149,535	393,892,255	-35%
42 SEWERAGE 369	674,796,921	539,497,345	-20%
45 DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS 381	1,545,467	657,143	-57%
46 OFFICE OF HOMELAND SECURITY 383	2,971,712	0	-100%
47 GENERAL SERVICES DEPARTMENT 388	68,592,098	39,099,514	-43%
50 AUDITOR GENERAL 395	3,188,491	2,942,305	-8%
51 BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS 396	774,535	606,566	-22%
52 CITY COUNCIL 398	13,060,821	8,296,003	-36%
53 OMBUDSPERSON 404	1,093,379	592,292	-46%
54 INSPECTOR GENERAL 405	0	592,292	#DIV/0!
60 36TH DISTRICT COURT 406	45,984,802	31,033,117	-33%
70 CITY CLERK 408	2,624,682	2,070,070	-21%
71 ELECTION COMMISSION 410	8,054,478	5,092,776	-37%
72 LIBRARY	48,829,418	32,663,695	-33%
	4,240,407,172	2,538,750,776

And sorted in order of budget reduction:

	2010 Actual	Proposed	Change
10 AIRPORT 1	3,462,944	0	-100%
11 ARTS 4	3,200	0	-100%
21 DETROIT WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT DEPARTMENT 55	130,490,160	0	-100%
25 DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND WELLNESS PROMOTION 110	79,719,789	0	-100%
29 HUMAN RIGHTS 187	871,003	0	-100%
30 HUMAN SERVICES 189	102,176,857	0	-100%
46 OFFICE OF HOMELAND SECURITY 383	2,971,712	0	-100%
33 MAYOR'S OFFICE 226	9,488,527	3,953,534	-58%
45 DEPARTMENT OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS 381	1,545,467	657,143	-57%
32 LAW 224	18,312,178	8,631,938	-53%
36 PLANNING & DEVELOPMENT 255	94,820,877	45,989,612	-51%
35 NON-DEPARTMENTAL 234	871,347,891	436,018,126	-50%
53 OMBUDSPERSON 404	1,093,379	592,292	-46%
20 DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION 46	259,575,275	142,988,698	-45%
18 DEBT SERVICE 12	134,690,100	74,426,582	-45%
28 HUMAN RESOURCES 183	14,399,279	8,007,951	-44%
47 GENERAL SERVICES DEPARTMENT 388	68,592,098	39,099,514	-43%
39 RECREATION 344	20,989,265	12,268,611	-42%
34 MUNICIPAL PARKING 230	32,855,384	19,214,738	-42%
19 DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS 14	165,237,987	101,246,334	-39%
13 BUILDINGS & SAFETY ENVIRONMENTAL 7	37,331,751	23,135,868	-38%
71 ELECTION COMMISSION 410	8,054,478	5,092,776	-37%
52 CITY COUNCIL 398	13,060,821	8,296,003	-36%
41 WATER 357	603,149,535	393,892,255	-35%
72 LIBRARY	48,829,418	32,663,695	-33%
60 36TH DISTRICT COURT 406	45,984,802	31,033,117	-33%
31 INFORMATION & TECHNOLOGY SERVICES 222	20,623,692	14,278,267	-31%
37 POLICE 306	467,152,601	339,593,842	-27%
51 BOARD OF ZONING APPEALS 396	774,535	606,566	-22%
70 CITY CLERK 408	2,624,682	2,070,070	-21%
24 FIRE 102	200,318,245	159,954,156	-20%
42 SEWERAGE 369	674,796,921	539,497,345	-20%
23 FINANCE 97	38,220,631	32,699,691	-14%
12 BUDGET 5	2,314,432	2,023,517	-13%
50 AUDITOR GENERAL 395	3,188,491	2,942,305	-8%
38 PUBLIC LIGHTING 339	61,338,765	57,283,938	-7%
54 INSPECTOR GENERAL 405	0	592,292	#DIV/0!
	4,240,407,172	2,538,750,776

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jt1

And sorted in order of budget reduction:

	2010 Actual	Proposed	Change
10 AIRPORT 1	3,462,944	0	-100%
11 ARTS 4	3,200	0	-100%
21 DETROIT WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT DEPARTMENT 55	130,490,160	0	-100%
25 DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND WELLNESS PROMOTION 110	79,719,789	0	-100%
29 HUMAN RIGHTS 187	871,003	0	-100%
30 HUMAN SERVICES 189	102,176,857	0	-100%
46 OFFICE OF HOMELAND SECURITY 383	2,971,712	0	-100%

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Airport -- of course

Arts -- well, $3,200 wasn't doing much anyway

'Workforce Development' -- should not be a city function

Health and Wellness Promotion -- Wellness Promotion great idea, but I can see that being cut. Health? Is this the entire Health Department? Is this being transferred to County? If so, that make sense.

Human Rights - None of the City's business

Human Services - What on earth is that? No one can be against Human Services, but $102 million for a department whose name doesn't describe what it does?

Office of Homeland Security - Last I heard this was a federal cabinet department. Shouldn't be separate from police.


Thanks for the list.

WJBK played a clip today of JoAnn Watson throwing a fit over the cuts. She stated that this is a, and I directly quote, "right-wing gangster takeover".

I'm just astonished at how Watson can be so stupid. Doesn't she get it? She's part of the reason the city is bankrupt. Is she ever going to try to fix it? Or is she just going to keep spewing out divisive speech?

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Originally Posted by Buy American

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120412/METRO01/204120415/Detroit-budget-proposal-would-cut-52-million-from-police-fire?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

There is minimal protection now, long response times because there is no manpower, firefighters working overtime to the extent that it is now dangerous to themselves and others [[due to fatigue), Police coverage is slow....what will happen now if they go through with these cuts?

Many departments are left unscathed. Some departments should be closed. Why would a City cut emergency responders? If someone can answer this question, I'd love to know the answer. These City leaders need to get the hell out of the CAY building because they are inept buffoons!

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Your post suggests that you believe that increased budget for the department translates into better 'coverage'. Why do you think that when history shows otherwise?

I don't think there's much evidence that given more money, that it'll be spent improving manpower levels.

Of course money is necessary, but just as important is competence. I'm sure the DPD Crime Lab cost a lot to run. No evidence that it did much except lose things. We're no worse off without it, from what I can see.

[[Not a Detroit resident today, but have been for most of my life. And I did interact with DPD for residence and business.)

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Originally Posted by Buy American

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120412/METRO01/204120415/Detroit-budget-proposal-would-cut-52-million-from-police-fire?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

There is minimal protection now, long response times because there is no manpower, firefighters working overtime to the extent that it is now dangerous to themselves and others [[due to fatigue), Police coverage is slow....what will happen now if they go through with these cuts?

Many departments are left unscathed. Some departments should be closed. Why would a City cut emergency responders? If someone can answer this question, I'd love to know the answer. These City leaders need to get the hell out of the CAY building because they are inept buffoons!

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I'm going to assume the quote below from the article YOU sited above was added after you initially read it and posted the link to it...


”The proposed budget Thursday calls for $32 million in savings from the police department through cutting officers through attrition, work rule changes and a 10 percent wage cut.”

Cutting officers through attrition means the officers voluntarily left, retired or were fired for some reason -- just the normal comings and goings of employees. The 10% wage cut that will likely be imposed on Police should yield a good amount of that $32 million by itself. I didn't see anything about Police service cuts anywhere in that article.

I don't have the budget docs handy but I bet most of those depts. being zeroed out were funded primarily by state and federal funds. If that's the case, they'll have little or no benefit to the city's bottom line.

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Originally Posted by Buy American

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120412/METRO01/204120415/Detroit-budget-proposal-would-cut-52-million-from-police-fire?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

There is minimal protection now, long response times because there is no manpower, firefighters working overtime to the extent that it is now dangerous to themselves and others [[due to fatigue), Police coverage is slow....what will happen now if they go through with these cuts?

Many departments are left unscathed. Some departments should be closed. Why would a City cut emergency responders? If someone can answer this question, I'd love to know the answer. These City leaders need to get the hell out of the CAY building because they are inept buffoons!

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Also, the Deputy Mayor said they are cutting $160 million from the budget by eliminating and consolidating departments. The proposed cuts to Police and Fire are about $50 million, much of that thorough the 10% wage cut. The rest of the departments have already taken a 10% wage cut so where do you think that other $110 million in cuts is gonna come from if Police and Fire are not laying personnel off?

It takes a lot of nerve for one to call these elected officials ”buffoons” when you make comments that make one question whether you [[based on your comment) have mastered basic reading comprehension and math.

If you use the 2011 - 2012 budget, here's the net impact of these department cuts on the city's bottom line:

Airport - $0
Arts - $3,200 -an assumption as there's no line item for it in the budget summary.
Workforce Development - $1,700
Health and Wellness - $6,492,650
Human Rights - $481,843
Human Services - $0
Homeland Security - $312,418

Cutting all these departments saves the city a little over $7,000,000.

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Originally Posted by Novine

I don't have the budget docs handy but I bet most of those depts. being zeroed out were funded primarily by state and federal funds. If that's the case, they'll have little or no benefit to the city's bottom line.

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That's a good point. But I wouldn't assume that State funding covers the whole cost of the workers. In addition to payroll, the cost of pensions, benefits, office space, elevator service, payroll processing, HR, etc. might well have been left to the City.

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Originally Posted by Novine

I don't have the budget docs handy but I bet most of those depts. being zeroed out were funded primarily by state and federal funds. If that's the case, they'll have little or no benefit to the city's bottom line.

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Here is the PDF: http://www.freep.com/assets/freep/pdf/C4187887412.PDF

"That's a good point. But I wouldn't assume that State funding covers the whole cost of the workers. In addition to payroll, the cost of pensions, benefits, office space, elevator service, payroll processing, HR, etc. might well have been left to the City."

The city may have absorbed some of those costs. The budget doc jt1 linked to doesn't include a breakdown to that detail. But even if that's true, it's only a few hundred employees. The city's going to have to cut a lot more than that to make any appreciable dent in its budget problems.

Hopefully City Council salaries and staff are eliminated.

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Originally Posted by skyl4rk

Hopefully City Council salaries and staff are eliminated.

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Would you do the same to your representatives in Lansing?

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Would you do the same to your representatives in Lansing?

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At least half of them, yes. Unicameral legislatures are just as efficient. Add part-time legislature to the mix, then you may be on to something.

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Originally Posted by townonenorth

At least half of them, yes. Unicameral legislatures are just as efficient. Add part-time legislature to the mix, then you may be on to something.

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So then when business interests draw up the legislation they want, the people who decide don't have staffs to examine the legislation and see if it's in the public interest? They don't have staff to research and examine matters minutely so the lawmakers vote knowledgeably? No thanks, townonenorth. I'd rather give legislators and councilmembers budgets and staffs. I should imagine that legislators who make good calls thanks to competent staffs and adequate budgets produce a government that is more "efficient" in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

So then when business interests draw up the legislation they want, the people who decide don't have staffs to examine the legislation and see if it's in the public interest? They don't have staff to research and examine matters minutely so the lawmakers vote knowledgeably? No thanks, townonenorth. I'd rather give legislators and councilmembers budgets and staffs. I should imagine that legislators who make good calls thanks to competent staffs and adequate budgets produce a government that is more "efficient" in the long run.

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Actually, staff that are picked by elected councilpeople and mayors are notorious in their inefficiency. The trend seems to be to hire 'friends and family", and to keep the staus quo, no matter how bad their performance is. I think that a city manager form of government is more efficient, letting him or her pick the staff would be a far better call.

The legislature we have now is just a rubber stamp for Calley anyway. Why bother with research when you can just do as you are told and vote the party line? Think of what will happen when the vote out the personal property tax. That's the end of cities and the state as we know it.

You always could incorporate, that may save you some cash.

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Originally Posted by townonenorth

I think that a city manager form of government is more efficient, letting him or her pick the staff would be a far better call.

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100% agreement.

Here in Warren Mayor James Fouts immediately lined city hall with his campaign staff and supporters. Fouts' neighbor made all his campaign signs for free, and in exchange for it he now runs a city department and has a city car. That's just one of MANY examples.

City Manager form of government cuts out a lot of the BS politics and provides stability for city workers, so their department heads aren't changing every four years.

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Originally Posted by Buy American

There is minimal protection now, long response times because there is no manpower, firefighters working overtime to the extent that it is now dangerous to themselves and others [[due to fatigue)

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What percentage of the Detroit Fire Department are staffed by volunteers? Are there any? I couldn't find anything on it.

When I google other cities fire departments in metro like Troy, Michigan, I am finding that over 94% of Troy's fire departments are staffed by volunteer firefighters: 6 stations, 10 career firefighters and 180 volunteer firefighters. http://troymi.gov/fire/ Couldn't the DFD be staffed by more volunteer firefighters if they are overworked "to the extent that it is now dangerous to themselves and others [[due to fatigue)"?

Are you volunteering, davewindsor?

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Originally Posted by jolla

Are you volunteering, davewindsor?

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I can't. I'm not a resident of the city.

"When I google other cities fire departments in metro like Troy, Michigan, I am finding that over 94% of Troy's fire departments are staffed by volunteer firefighters"

Troy is nothing like Detroit. In suburbs like Troy, you can count on one hand the number of actual structure fires that occur. Most of the "fire" runs are really medical runs. Detroit has actual structure fires and needs a professional fire department.

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Originally Posted by Novine

"When I google other cities fire departments in metro like Troy, Michigan, I am finding that over 94% of Troy's fire departments are staffed by volunteer firefighters"

Troy is nothing like Detroit. In suburbs like Troy, you can count on one hand the number of actual structure fires that occur. Most of the "fire" runs are really medical runs. Detroit has actual structure fires and needs a professional fire department.

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You can't count it on one hand. Total fire incidents were 170 in Troy in 2010. Structure = 68. http://troymi.gov/fire/FrontPageLink...10_Summary.pdf Detroit also has 10 times the population of Troy, so obviously it will be higher and also need at least 10 times the volunteers

Regardless, that still does not show that Troy's volunteer model would not work in Detroit.

The city cannot afford the status quo anymore. So, there are three options: 1) Switching to Troy's model of a volunteer fire department, 2) Privatization, or 3) the fire and police unions are going to have to give up on work rules [[not directly affecting the hourly wage of a front line firefighter) like the Big 3 did, which raises the city's budget considerably like unfunded pension liabilities and heath care costs. If not, police and fire [[which make up 60% of the city's budget--at least according to Stephen Henderson from his talk show) is going to have to consider other municipal models from more successful metro cities like Troy.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

So then when business interests draw up the legislation they want, the people who decide don't have staffs to examine the legislation and see if it's in the public interest? They don't have staff to research and examine matters minutely so the lawmakers vote knowledgeably? No thanks, townonenorth. I'd rather give legislators and councilmembers budgets and staffs. I should imagine that legislators who make good calls thanks to competent staffs and adequate budgets produce a government that is more "efficient" in the long run.

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In the case of Detroit, now is not the time for the City Council to be settling matters of industrial policy, as you rightly suggest requires some support.

They should be [[and should have been) sticking to the task of running the mechanics of a city.

We all likely agree that they don't to have more than most other American cities right now.

"Regardless, that still does not show that Troy's volunteer model would not work in Detroit. "

The stats may say that Troy had a double-digit number of "structure" fires. If you dig into those numbers, I can guarantee that you'll find that most of those are minor in nature and are nothing like the intensity or scale of what you see in Detroit. When was the last time you heard of multiple homes engulfed in fire in Troy? Never because Troy never sees the kind of structure fires that happen in Detroit.

As far as the volunteer model, what makes you think it can scale up to a city the size of Detroit? Can you name one other city Detroit's size that operates that way? Using your logic, Detroit doesn't need the level of bus service provided because Troy gets away with much less transit than Detroit. Troy is "successful" and Detroit is not, therefore follow the Troy model. There's a reason that major urban cities don't rely on a volunteer model. It's not feasible, it's not practical and it would lead to many more deaths and injuries among the civilian population and fire department personnel.

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Originally Posted by Novine

Using your logic, Detroit doesn't need the level of bus service provided because Troy gets away with much less transit than Detroit. Troy is "successful" and Detroit is not, therefore follow the Troy model.

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Holy shit, I think davewindsor is Dave Bing! My mind is blown.

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Originally Posted by Novine

"Regardless, that still does not show that Troy's volunteer model would not work in Detroit. "

The stats may say that Troy had a double-digit number of "structure" fires. If you dig into those numbers, I can guarantee that you'll find that most of those are minor in nature and are nothing like the intensity or scale of what you see in Detroit. When was the last time you heard of multiple homes engulfed in fire in Troy? Never because Troy never sees the kind of structure fires that happen in Detroit.

As far as the volunteer model, what makes you think it can scale up to a city the size of Detroit? Can you name one other city Detroit's size that operates that way? Using your logic, Detroit doesn't need the level of bus service provided because Troy gets away with much less transit than Detroit. Troy is "successful" and Detroit is not, therefore follow the Troy model. There's a reason that major urban cities don't rely on a volunteer model. It's not feasible, it's not practical and it would lead to many more deaths and injuries among the civilian population and fire department personnel.

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If you're challenging the validity of the structure fires Troy uses in their statistics, you have to show the proof. You haven't shown any. You've only offered an opinion. Are you the Chief of the Fire Marshal's office for the State of Michigan who is qualified to offer such an opinion? If not, you need to back it up with facts, not your opinions.

Comparing bus service to fire departments is like comparing apples and oranges. I'm not even going to warrant it with a further response because it's not relevant. We are talking about the fire department, not bus service. If you're going to debate the issues, use relevant facts like other fire departments in metro or don't bother.

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Originally Posted by davewindsor

If you're challenging the validity of the structure fires Troy uses in their statistics, you have to show the proof. You haven't shown any. You've only offered an opinion. Are you the Chief of the Fire Marshal's office for the State of Michigan who is qualified to offer such an opinion? If not, you need to back it up with facts, not your opinions.

Comparing bus service to fire departments is like comparing apples and oranges. I'm not even going to warrant it with a further response because it's not relevant. We are talking about the fire department, not bus service. If you're going to debate the issues, use relevant facts like other fire departments in metro or don't bother.

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I don't think its at all fair to limit opinion issuing to certified authorities. One doesn't have to be a specialist to enter a discussion on general ideas.

That said, Troy being a volunteer department is fascinating. While Troy may not have nearly the volume of 'business' that DFD has, they are one of the few suburbs who have true 'high rise' buildings. I believe the fire codes for high-rise start around 10 stories. To have a building that tall, there's an entirely different set of code requirements for the buildings, and an entirely different set of requirements for the local fire department.

[[btw, I'm not a Fire Chief, but I do have multiple years of high-rise building management experience, and have memberships in several building trade associations.)

"If you're challenging the validity of the structure fires Troy uses in their statistics, you have to show the proof. You haven't shown any. You've only offered an opinion."

You're right, it is only my opinion. Troy doesn't provide enough detail about its structure fires to be able to show what's true in other suburban communities is also true in Troy. Maybe Troy is a magical city where the statistics really mean that Troy has a major structure fire more than once a week. If that was the case, you would think it would make the news once in a while. Odd that it doesn't. But if want to believe it, carry on with believing that. But don't expect anyone to take your idea that a volunteer fire department serving a community like Troy can scale to serve a city like Detroit. It's laughable and you won't find anyone with any kind of real world experience in firefighting to buy into your idea.

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Originally Posted by Novine

But don't expect anyone to take your idea that a volunteer fire department serving a community like Troy can scale to serve a city like Detroit. It's laughable and you won't find anyone with any kind of real world experience in firefighting to buy into your idea.

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I wouldn't expect anyone from the DFD union to say anything other than a complete defense of the status quo out of self-interest. You still don't offer a solution to Detroit's financial crisis, just a denial of real world reality. But, in your defense, if I was in your union, I would probably do the exact same thing discrediting what fire departments in other cities are doing to keep their payroll costs down.

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Originally Posted by davewindsor

I can't. I'm not a resident of the city.

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Sure you can, other than the union steward, they won't care. And he won't care if you're a resident or not. Most firemen don't live in the City anyways.

The key difference between Troy and Detroit, is that Detroit firefighter work thier asses off.

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Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Most firemen don't live in the City anyways.

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HAHAHA, so that's why they come to Detroit for work. They can't make that kind of money in their own cities like Troy.

"But, in your defense, if I was in your union, I would probably do the exact same thing discrediting what fire departments in other cities are doing to keep their payroll costs down."

What union? If you think I work for DFD or the unions, you are way off-track. But if that helps you believe in your pipe dream, keep on believing. The solution for Detroit isn't a volunteer fire department and no rational person believes that.

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Originally Posted by Novine

The solution for Detroit isn't a volunteer fire department and no rational person believes that.

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Typical union argument--anyone who doesn't agree with you is not rational.

Troy isn't an agrarian village. It's a highly developed and successful city in metro with office towers up to 25 stories, a world class mall, expensive mansions with some of the richest people in country and yet they still have a voluntary fire department. Geez, it's completely irrational for something like that to exist...

So, voluntary fire departments work in agrarian villages on one end of the spectrum. Voluntary fire departments work in highly developed and successful cities on the other end of the spectrum. Yet, it couldn't possibly work in a city the exists somewhere in between like Detroit.

"Troy isn't an agrarian village. It's a highly developed and successful city in metro with office towers up to 25 stories, a world class mall, expensive mansions with some of the richest people in country and yet they still have a voluntary fire department. Geez, it's completely irrational for something like that to exist... "

It has almost nothing in common with Detroit. Most of Troy was developed since the advent of modern fire codes. Most of Detroit was not. The homes in Troy aren't packed on top of each other where a fire in one can quickly spread to others, as happens all too often in Detroit. Troy doesn't have thousands of abandoned and vacant buildings, many of them fire traps that can collapse at a moment's notice. Troy doesn't have a population that lacks the ability to pay for basic medical services and relies heavily on emergency services to address all levels of emergency care. In short, Troy is nothing like Detroit.

"Voluntary fire departments work in highly developed and successful cities on the other end of the spectrum."

Which cities are those? There are hundreds of cities with populations of the size between Troy and Detroit. How many of them rely on a volunteer fire department?

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Originally Posted by Novine

It has almost nothing in common with Detroit. Most of Troy was developed since the advent of modern fire codes. Most of Detroit was not. The homes in Troy aren't packed on top of each other where a fire in one can quickly spread to others, as happens all too often in Detroit. Troy doesn't have thousands of abandoned and vacant buildings, many of them fire traps that can collapse at a moment's notice. Troy doesn't have a population that lacks the ability to pay for basic medical services and relies heavily on emergency services to address all levels of emergency care. In short, Troy is nothing like Detroit.

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This is so ridiculous, Novine. What are you saying now?! So, volunteers in Troy who have the technical knowhow to deal with a fire breaking out in a 25 story office tower do not know how to connect a hose to a fire hydrant and hose down a fire that broke out across several abandoned townhouses? Gimme a break. Volunteers in Troy are not imbeciles because they are volunteers. Just the opposite. I'm sure a lot of those volunteers are highly qualified engineers and other relevant trades in their regular jobs and offer a lot of transferable skills and training that a professional DFD firefighter wouldn't have when they volunteer. You're just defending your paycheck at the expense of insulting the good people who volunteer their time for nothing other than wanting to help their fellow man.

I really think Novine is arguing against a straw man here. There are no cities in the US anywhere near the size of Detroit that have a volunteer fire department. Detroit isn't going to have one either, and as far as I can see Davewindsor wasn't proposing that. What I thought he was suggesting is that Detroit could supplement its fire department with volunteers, which seems reasonable to me, as this is done in many cities, including large ones with challenging conditions like New York and Berlin.

If people think that would be a bad idea, they should argue against that, not against the idea of volunteer fire departments in general. I will make one argument, which is that while I think it might be a good idea in the abstract, in a context where professional firefighters are very likely to be laid off, it is easy to see how there could be some serious friction between the professionals and the volunteers--this is the sort of program that would be a lot easier to implement when people aren't worried about their jobs.

"Volunteers in Troy are not imbeciles because they are volunteers. Just the opposite. I'm sure a lot of those volunteers are highly qualified engineers and other relevant trades in their regular jobs and offer a lot of transferable skills and training that a professional DFD firefighter wouldn't have when they volunteer."

Who said they were imbeciles? I never criticized the skills of the volunteers in Troy. But the fact of the matter is that most Troy firefighters have never dealt with the kinds of fires that Detroit firefighters deal with every day of the week and I'm sure the Troy volunteers would be the first to admit it. There's a world of difference of having the knowledge of how to fight those fires and actually fighting those fires. It's like saying that the local police in Clawson or Clarkston could easily step alongside the officers in the Detroit Police Department. Good luck finding many officers from the suburbs who would be willing to do that.

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Originally Posted by Novine

"There's a world of difference of having the knowledge of how to fight those fires and actually fighting those fires. It's like saying that the local police in Clawson or Clarkston could easily step alongside the officers in the Detroit Police Department. Good luck finding many officers from the suburbs who would be willing to do that.

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Again, you're making assumptions about the background of those volunteers. I get the impression you think they just sit around all day drinking coffee and eating donuts and for the most part that's all they expect to do, living the easy life, and that's why they do it.

I have two cousins in Virginia. One is an engineer and the other is a CPA. Neither of them could afford tuition so they had to sign off a couple years of their life to the marines so the military would pay for their tuition. I'm sure there are a lot of engineers and other professionals out there who didn't come from money and had to go through the military to get their tuition paid. Are you telling me that if someone's an engineer in Troy with a military background and volunteered once a week at the Troy fire department that they couldn't handle a shift in Detroit? It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of those volunteers had some applied military training in addition to their skills they would bring over from their regular jobs.

I'm sure there would be a lot of people willing to volunteer at the DFD like the the Troy FD to serve their community if there was something in place to ensure they weren't treated like scabs by the professionals in the union.