whaaaa?
http://freep.com/article/20090602/NE...+Tiger+Stadium
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Good riddance.
I think we know what is coming next, the Lafayette Building. DEGC has NOTHING on the boards and they have to justify their existence so they will start knocking down buildings to make it look like they are actually doing work. Once these buildings are knocked down, expect a vacant lot for the next 20+ years.
Yay! More vacant lots! :mad:
What happened to the 4 million that Levin was supposed to give them? 5 will get you 10 that the Tiger Stadium Conservancy Group, I think that's their name, will go back to City Council and ask for another deadline.
about time, only in detroit would a sports team abandon their stadium and there would be a question about what to do with it.
Good riddance to that eyesore! I can't wait for all the exciting development that will occur there, similar to what is going on next to the White Castle next door and the vacant lots next to the gas station!
They should knock down the MCS first. It is more of an eyesore.
Toronto's Maple Leaf Gardens, Montreal's Olympic Stadium, and Houston's Astrodome are all former professional venues that are still standing without a professional team occupying them. Not saying they should be standing, but it is definitely not an "only in detroit" issue.
It was a valiant effort by those trying to save part of the stadium. Unfortunately with the state of our local economy it was nearly hopeless. :[[ The downside now is that the price of scrap steel has plummeted since the prior demo contract, the work is going to cost the city a lot more this time around.
so let's just leave it alone and save our demo dollars for another day. time for a cleaning out of degc leadership. this is ridiculous.
Personally I am glad its going down, the remains looks ridiculous, there is no money to go ahead with the proposed development and there will be groups for 20 years saying they are planning to restore,, Get rid of it, Id rather look at an empty field than another half torn, totally worn structure/.
What is the point of leaving it standing? A museum that nobody will go to? They could build a building nearby if they wanted to do this. The stadium seating is dangerous and serves no purpose. This failed and halfway demo is one of the more embarrassing things in the city, in my opinion.
And when it is finally razed, and the ball field is open, won't that be best for everyone? At least kids can play on it and nostalgic old folk can wander the same outfield as Ty Cobb... It will surely be better than a 10 foot high construction fence surrounding a halfway demolished stadium that was abandoned 10 years ago.
Terrible! So long Tiger Stadium and thanks are the 90 years of memories. Folks in Corktown may have to deal a big ole' vacant brownfield meant to become a big ole' parking lot for the Tigers, Lions and Red Wings games.
Who's job is it to let Martha know??
Isn't it hypocritical for someone with the name GREENTROIT, which implies environmentally consciousness to be pro-demolotion where the majority of the building materials will end up in a landfill?
I'm not sure my name implies anything. You are making assumptions.
As for your statement about the materials ending in a landfill, that is untrue. Over 94% of Tiger Stadium will end up being recycled. Concrete will be used as fill material, and steel is cut and melted before being remolded into other products.
http://www.greensportsvenues.com/200...gerstadium.php
Since I donated money to save it, and it's not being saved, when do I get my money back?
Actually, the Conservancy raised almost all of the money they need. One of the main reasons why they haven't been able to raise even more was that donors were reluctant to give when the City seemed determined to demolish the building no matter what.Quote:
It was a valiant effort by those trying to save part of the stadium. Unfortunately with the state of our local economy it was nearly hopeless.
Fine, then you pay for the demolition. I for one am getting tired of the City pissing away large chunks of cash on demolitions like this and then claiming that it's too broke to take care of other things.Quote:
Get rid of it, Id rather look at an empty field than another half torn, totally worn structure/.
I think it would be a huge step forward for Detroit if we made folks who want to demolish historic buildings raise the cash for those demolitions and use our tax dollars for fixing the existing ones up.
That still means that 6% of it will go into a landfill. In contrast, if we allow the Conservancy to do their job and quit drooling at the prospect of demolishing Tiger Stadium then none of the materials go into a landfill.Quote:
As for your statement about the materials ending in a landfill, that is untrue. Over 94% of Tiger Stadium will end up being recycled.
"Tear it down, I'm tired of looking at it, blah, blah, blah."
What a terrible reason to drive public policy decisions. I'm tired of looking at a lot of things, like Walmarts, chotchy guys with goatees driving SUVs...I could go on all day.
More than half of downtown Detroit has already been torn down within the past 50 years and at this rate the rest of it will be gone within the next 50. Decisions of public policy in this city need to be looked at in the bigger picture in terms of how it will affect things now and in years to come. Like selling off public parks or dissolving school districst. Issues like this seem to bring out the shallowest of the short-sighted folks. Ever been to Rome? I'm glad they didn't tear down the Colloseum when it was empty and being used as a motel by vagrants and prostitues.
“We’ve made so much progress. … I guess the DECG’s policy is to save the city by demolishing it,” Linn said.
perfect quote. omgggg. this is the status-quo in Detroit and has been for 40 years.
I can understand how somebody wouldn't want MCS or the Lafayette Building to be torn down. They are potentially usable space. Renovation and rehabilitation could lead to them being productive and usable property. But I don't see the use for a rusty old baseball stadium that has been left alone for 10 years.
What can they do with it? Keep in mind the area is already probably 80% open space [[playing surface, torn down outfield walls). I don't see what the hell you do with what is left???
ScienceFair, I am not a world traveler by any means but I have been really lucky to travel to a few places outside the U.S. I think if people from the Detroit area were fortunate to see the world, maybe their tunnel vision might be cured.
Yes I know. Everyone is telling me how Tiger Stadium must be saved, but nobody has told me what it will be. MCS could be lofts, offices, apartments, a train station, etc. Lafayette offers the same things.
What would a saved Tiger Stadium be? Would it have any use? Would people go inside of it or just look at it like they have for the last 10 years? I love the idea of saving the field, but what would the two levels of stadium seating from dugout to dugout provide?
Fine, then you pay for the demolition. I for one am getting tired of the City pissing away large chunks of cash on demolitions like this and then claiming that it's too broke to take care of other things.
C'mon Frank, you're better than that. IF we believe the City's somewhat dubious numbers, the cost to sit and watch that building rot was about $250,000 per year. Roughly the same to, in the words of the great George Clinton, "Tear The Roof Off The Sucker".
I was all for it being saved until most of it was torn down, and dugout to dugout remained, looking confusingly ridiculous. What's done is done, and it's time for Tiger Stadium to go. The effort to save it was there, it didn't work, but that doesn't mean you can't hold on to your good memories.
The City could've got the demolition done for, basically, nothing, if they'd allowed the contractor to demolish all of it in the first place.
Now, I haven't got enough detail to make up my mind about something, so help if you can. How much did the Conservancy raise, and how much was the City requiring them to raise? [[And, by when?)
WWJ audio featuring a short debate between the OTSC's Gillette and DEGC representative:
http://www.wwj.com/topic/play_window...dioId=3769246-
when will they get to the brewster projects? Why not just move all of the historic stuff to Greenfield Village?
If Alley doesn't mind a creepy-looking, beat-up piece of a guy briefly standing next to her, I'm with her on this one.
Nobody loved Tiger Stadium any more than I did, but the Tigers quit playing there, the dead stadium sat there for ten years, and now a truly depressing piece of a whatever that is that's left sits there, causing me to feel bad every damned day of my work-week.
See, one of the pleasures of working where I work was that I was able to see my beloved Tiger Stadium from the north windows, and the drive to & from work featured a pass right by it.
Now, every day I drive past the ruined, partially-destroyed remains of the place. Tiger Stadium was the whole structure, in its complete form, and that was finished off when they first knocked down a wall.
Too late, now; what's done is done, and the sad little image I now see, every day on my ride to work, makes my heart ache.
Please, somebody, take it away. My love is gone, and I have no wish to hang onto an arm, a foot, and some hair & teeth.
for all those confused and disturbed about the stadium's current configuration, remember what's left on the corner of michigan and trumbull is not some half assed frankenstein tiger stadium. the structure was scaled down to an earlier version of itself which was completely appropriate in the mind's eyes of detroiters for over two decades...Attachment 1519
this shows the evolution
Attachment 1520
here's information about from the conservancy about their plans for all those who are confused about what could possibly be done in such a place...
http://www.savetigerstadium.org/the_plan.htm
here's a reasonable example of what could be done... nickerson field in boston [[former home of boston braves), now host to boston university games and matches...Attachment 1521
this would be stupid terminal waste of urban fabric, especially when so much effort has gone into a visionary, progressive alternative. the fact that detroit finds itself at the epicenter of an economic catastrophy doesn't mean that demos such as this can be rationalized. b-c sat vacant for 20 years...it was heralded by many as much of a white elephat as navin [[ne tiger stadium). the conservancy was paying for security. give them time to put something together, MOST ESPECIALLY if there is NOTHING funded to replace with anything more meaningful. detroit will never again stand tall as a city if it continues to flatten everything that it can't figure out.
EDC stands for "Everything Demolished Corporation", right?
detourdetroit, you are a breath of fresh air!
Detour, I know about Navin Field, but what you call a "scaled down... earlier version of itself" is what I call the depressing remains of a once-beautiful, and whole, stadium.
Nobody who is still alive is going to have sweet memories fired up by that sight, or look at it and say, "Ah!! Now that's the place I remember!!"
Where's our old buddy Skulker to remind us how preservation-minded the City of Detroit is?
i know. i feel you ravine. i'm saddened by the fact that we couldn't have figured something out with baseball's version of the globe theatre. so unique in its wholeness. a stage in the round for the most intimate of baseball drama. but as with so many things, having a touchstone to the past with even a remnant of the fabric can enliven the senses and elucidate the sweetest of visions. what is powerful about what could still be is that our children and grandchildren could continue to use the space in a meaningful way and create their own memories, made the more sweeter, richer and deeper if they're sitting in the upper deck behind home plate, gazing into the outfield and imagining whether or not the popup to right field would land in the overhang, or miss it by a few inches.
skulker...doing god's work somewheres near the mason dixon line...that lawless, backwards backwater due south wheres all they can think of to do is to build them some light rail...
This guy nails it-not everything old in baseball is good, but that doesn't mean you should get rid of the good old stuff
http://ebbetsfieldflannels.blogspot....n-and-now.html
From their web site:
"Note that, as stated on our Web site, donations will not be refunded in the event that the Conservancy’s plan does not receive approval by the City of Detroit. The Conservancy expects to utilize all donations in the fight to save Tiger Stadium, and any unspent donations will be directed to a non-profit organization that is harmonious with the OTSC’s mission."
Amen Detour! I cannot fathom how this would benifit Corktown or Detroit in anyway shape or form. I am sure we will have a lively discussion on this issue at the Corktown Residents Council Meeting tonight...
Urban, since you mentioned your participation in that community group:
There is a BIG white house on Church, at the corner just up from Rosa Parks.
Fabulous. I am so envious.
If the owners are part of your group, please pass along my admiration and tell them that I deliberately drive by it, almost every day around 3:40, just to gawk at it.
I'm in the beat-up green Dodge with the 50's jazz blasting.
will do ravine :)
Has the conservancy ever released how much they raised. It seems they have been saying 'We are so close' for years. It also seems to me that their campaign to raise funds was half assed at best.
They didn't even get a website up until right before the first deadline.
The cost to the City of Detroit to let Tiger Stadium sit was exactly $0.00.Quote:
C'mon Frank, you're better than that. IF we believe the City's somewhat dubious numbers, the cost to sit and watch that building rot was about $250,000 per year. Roughly the same to, in the words of the great George Clinton, "Tear The Roof Off The Sucker".
All costs for security and such were paid for by the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy.
According to what the DEGC said in the paper, the Conservancy raised 4 million dollars. Assuming that's the money that was promised by Levin, was the money delivered to the Conservancy or simply earmarked to them? If the money was delivered, will it ahve to go back? If not, what will the Conservancy do with it?
Isn't it just grand that the DEGC waits for the greatest economic collapse in 75 years to demand that parties pony up financing for redevelopment projects--or face demolition? Tell me this is a body that has serious intent to do anything but raze Detroit into the set of the next Mad Max movie.
Keith Olbermann has just proclaimed George Jackson to be one of the Worst Persons in the World on tonight's "Countdown" because of the Tiger Stadium demolition.
While they're at it, shove the rest of Detroit into the river. I mean, really.
Okay, the above remark may have been harsh, but I was really hoping that plans would go through for keeping at least part of the stadium. For a while, it sounded like it would happen.
Council President Ken Cockrel very honestly told the Corktown community that it now really is time to let this go. The final word of course is up to Mayor BIng.
Corky
The Conservancy has about $22m in committed funds, AND have ALREADY put $300,000 in escrow for security, AND have not missed any deadlines.
I hate backroom politics. The conservancy was never informed this was being decided upon.
I believe Mr. George Jackson lacks the vision I once falsely believed he had.
From the conservancy facebook.
Subject: The State of the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy
The Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy is shocked and dismayed that a decision was made by the Economic Development Corporation to demolish the Navin Field portion of Tiger Stadium without consulting the Conservancy. The Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy has made considerable progress to move the redevelopment of this property forward by securing millions of dollars in earmarks, grants and tax credits, as well as state approval of historic designation.
Plans are well underway to redevelop this property into a viable and self-sustaining commercial property, a much-needed venue for supporting local youth and amateur sports, and a usable and attractive community green space as exemplified by similar preservation efforts by the Detroit Riverfront Conservancy. The Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy project will be a major contributor to the economic development of the City of Detroit, connecting southeast Michigan to the state and the entire region.
With a new administration in place, we demand that the City not be shortsighted in its vision for the future. We ask that development officials stop demolishing our heritage and instead, develop mixed-use opportunities that promote economic vitality, cultural tourism and healthy green spaces that interlink and sustain neighborhoods. By demolishing, the City loses $22 million in credits and earmarks and adds another vacant lot in the City of Detroit. Apparently, the policy is to save the City by demolishing it.
We encourage citizens to contact the Mayor’s office as well as Detroit City Council to voice their concerns.
The Honorable Dave Bing
Mayor, City of Detroit
Executive Office
Coleman A. Young Municipal Center
2 Woodward Avenue
Detroit, Michigan 48226
313-224-3400
Kraig,
Apparently The city is saying that tax credits and ear marks are not cash in hand and thus it is not a feasible plan... At least that was Cockrels take on it tonight at the meeting... Absurd view if you ask me...
So George Jackson's grand redevelopment plans are to tear down the Lafayette Building and Tiger Stadium.
What fucking good is this loser? Haven't we learned YET that just tearing something down for the hell of it isn't economic or urban planning? Hudson's site? Statler? Madison Lenox? I don't really care about the stadium, but can we least have a reason for doing what we're doing?
Detroit and Michigan: Confronting 21st century economics with the insights of the 1950's.
To all of you who applaud the loss of this remarkable site...you know I won't go as low as you. What a loss for the city and it's history! THANK GOD you had no voice in wanting to tear down the Fox or the Book or the Pick Fort you freakin idiots!!
Thank God there aren't more people who feel this way. If there were, nothing would ever happen anywhere in this country.
The City of Detroit isn't in possession of the money for its FY 2010 budget yet either. Shall we lay off every police officer and fire fighter in the city?
The outstanding funds are coming from the federal government. The federal government moves at its speed and it's a slow one. Anyone who has ever done any business with any federal bureaucracy can tell you that. Regardless, the funds are committed to the project Conservancy has the cash on hand to secure the property until such time as the remaining federal funds make their way to Detroit.
Unfortunately, because of the arrogance and blatant stupidity of a handful of individuals, that federal cash will now be re-routed elsewhere. Detroit will have nothing but the expense of demolishing the property and another vacant lot to contend with.
I agree with the EDC's policy, shunning the idea of preserving history, and instead going with the progressive idea of recreating history. Since the prior occupant of the Navin Field site was a haymarket, the EDC is taking this one step further, in their vision, and turning the place into a hayfield. Thus turning what was thought of as a major problem in the city of unmown empty lots, and turning it into an asset.
Bravo!
Your "Money talks, bullshit walks" statement does not apply in this situation and you need to be educated on the facts.
Someone really needs to teach the city government and the public how these tax credits work and how much potential money there is available for re-development. These public officials travel all across the world to conferences and bring back nothing for the city. It seems that not one of them has learned about the money that is available and in turn goes unused every year.
I predict that after the city of Detroit is completely torn down that only then people will start to learn about creative financing and start saying how they should have saved these places. Detroit: a legend in its own mind, two decades behind the times, and soon to be the largest urban farm/parking lot in the world.
The City of Detroit is in possesion of the means to collect the money for the Fiscal Year. What is the Conservancy in possesion of? It doesn't own the land. It doesn't have the money it needs to carry out the project. If you look at their website, they don't even have a plan. What they have is an idea, but that's not enough. The project has gone from a 15 million dollar project to a 33 million dollar project with no real explanation as to why. You can't conduct business that way when you have nothing but the promise of sweat equity. Additionally, all of you that have always complained about people getting things because of their celebrity status and name recognition, need to be honest and admit that the only reason the Conservancy made it this far was because Enrie Harwell had attached his celebrity status and name recognition to this project early on. Furthermore, no one involved with the Conservancy has demonstrated the experience to run this type of operation. The last thing we need is another International Welcome Center that closes its doors less than two years after it opens. that was already a waste of 17 million dollars. Do we really want to be the area that wastes 50 million dollars on two projects that yield nothing? Not a good sign for the only area in Detroit that's growing in population.
DEGC = Detroit Extension of Gravel Corporation.
Although there's been some progress, obviously the tear-it-down-create-an-empty-lot model isn't working. How do I know? I'm staring at blocks of empty lots out of my goddamn window on what should be prime, urban developed real estate [[funnily enough, it won't give away my location, because that's EVERYWHERE in this city).
This will be Geo. Jackson's glory year. With Bing "in control", Jackson will have free reign to demolish to his heart's content. These demolitions will be shown as signs of progress, will cost the city and the public millions in tax dollars and at the end of the day will do nothing for the city. Jackson will promote these demolitions as necessary to promote new development which will never come. When will this man, this one person wrecking crew, be held to account for the millions of federal, state and local tax dollars he's squandered in his demolition sprees with nothing to show for them?
It doesn't apply huh, I love how you say I need to be educated on the facts and then don't present any. How are these for facts.
Fact 1. If the Conservancy had enough money, it could have bought the building and land from the DEGC.
Fact 2. If the Conservancy owned the property, the DEGC could not vote to have the property torn down.
Fact 3. All one has to do is look across the street at the train station and see that I'm telling it the way it is.
Fact 4. The Conservancy is not asking for a loan, it is asking several bureaucratic agencies to give them property, land and money for a 33 million dollar project that is designed to not make a profit.
Fact 5. Projects that do not make a profit is not widely considered the best use of tax credits.
Fact 6. I'll say it again, not because I think things should be this way, but because things are this way. MONEY TALKS, BULLSHIT WALKS.
Unfortunately, that is the world we live in. You may not like it, but you need to recognize that.
First, if you're going to make a big deal out who has possession of what, please learn to spell the word possession. Thank you.Quote:
The City of Detroit is in possesion of the means to collect the money for the Fiscal Year. What is the Conservancy in possesion of?
As for the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy, they are in possession of a commitment of cash from the federal government.
First, if you're coming to comment on Ernie Harwell, please learn how to spell his name. It's Ernie and not "Enrie". Thank you.Quote:
Additionally, all of you that have always complained about people getting things because of their celebrity status and name recognition, need to be honest and admit that the only reason the Conservancy made it this far was because Enrie Harwell had attached his celebrity status and name recognition to this project early on.
Second, the Conservancy had been in operation for almost a year before Mr. Harwell became involved. It continued to operate for long after he separated himself from the Conservancy and raised the bulk of its cash after that departure. Therefore, your argument that the OTSC only made it this far because of him is utter nonsense.
Brilliant! Because the Mercardo closed its doors, we should never try to open anything else ever again. We should just keep demolishing things - using money that we can't afford to spend in the first place - even when the funding is available to restore them.Quote:
The last thing we need is another International Welcome Center that closes its doors less than two years after it opens. that was already a waste of 17 million dollars.
Some folks like to substitute their own delusions for facts. The realities are below.
The City of Detroit insisted on retaining ownership of the land when the original agreement with the OTSC was signed.Quote:
Fact 1. If the Conservancy had enough money, it could have bought the building and land from the DEGC.
Agreed. Unfortunately, however, that does not change the way that the agreement was written.Quote:
Fact 2. If the Conservancy owned the property, the DEGC could not vote to have the property torn down.
Umm.... The train station is across the street from Tiger Stadium???Quote:
Fact 3. All one has to do is look across the street at the train station and see that I'm telling it the way it is.
Since when?
They've asked for, and received, funding from the federal government as well as private individuals and foundations. As for whether or not the project makes a profit, the OTSC is incorporated as a non-profit charity. Non-profits aren't supposed to make a profit. Hence, the name "non-profit".Quote:
Fact 4. The Conservancy is not asking for a loan, it is asking several bureaucratic agencies to give them property, land and money for a 33 million dollar project that is designed to not make a profit.
The historic preservation tax credits are designed to preserve America's historic resources. Whether or not a given project makes a profit is immaterial.Quote:
Fact 5. Projects that do not make a profit is not widely considered the best use of tax credits.
Besides, even in a worst case scenario, the OTSC plan is still the most profitable option on the table. The only other option is the for the City of Detroit to spend a few million that it doesn't have to create a vacant lot that it can't afford to maintain.
Then why isn't the DEGC walking?Quote:
Fact 6. I'll say it again, not because I think things should be this way, but because things are this way. MONEY TALKS, BULLSHIT WALKS.
The City of Detroit cannot afford to demolish Tiger Stadium. It's running a huge deficit and isn't meeting most of its current obligations.
The City of Detroit cannot afford to maintain the vacant lot that will result once Tiger Stadium is fully demolished. Who is going to cut the grass? Who is going to pick up the trash?
The DEGC has even less money for this site than the OTSC does. If money talks and bullshit walks, why aren't they walking?
Kraig,
I wish it was as simple as you make it but it is not. The city was given the stadium for $1 and didn't want to relinquish control over it when they voted on this 2 years ago. Instead they voted to allow plans to move forward but had to vote on the plan every step of the way thus giving council ultimate control of the fate of the stadium until they decided to relinquish it. It did not relinquish control of the stadium until just recently when it was believed they were relinquishing control so that conservancy plans could move forward as long as the EDC approved this... Instead the EDC decided to vote against it... I could be wrong on some minor details as I am just going off memory here and am going off my understanding from council hearings I attended.
In this economic state for the OTSC to do as well as they have is amazing. They were given an almost impossible task... The MOU made it almost impossible for them to meet deadlines yet they have done quite well at doing so and thus for the City to be saying that they have been given enough time is preposterous. The EDC knew it would be almost impossible and in my opinion it seems like they almost counted on them not being able to meet deadlines. I applaud the OTSC for doing as well as they have done and feel that the fight isn't over yet and hope that this careless decision can be reversed!
http://www.wdetfm.org/detroittoday/
The Detroit Economic Development Corp. board voted 7-1 today to authorize the complete demolition of the last portion of Tiger Stadium. This is after an aggressive fundraising campaign by local conservationists, and comes as a surprise to sources close to the negotiations. We’ll hear why from Waymon Guillebeaux of the DEGC, and Thomas Linn of the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy.
about 53 minutes in...
Just wanted to add my sympathies to all the Stadium conservancy folks as well as the Corktowners -- I didn't attend many games at Tiger Stadium, but I did go there a few times for special events.
The problem, as we well know, with this city, this region, and this state is a lack of vision and leadership. When there is no vision, not only do the people perish, but so does Detroit. [[And sometimes I want to throw things at every city leader who makes pretty speeches about "vision" but wouldn't know it if they fell over it.)
What a shame. I'm saddened, and I feel guilty, too. I wish I'd helped those trying to save the stadium more.
Bulk of what cash, they don't have any. Ernie Harwell is the one that initially got City Council to convince the DEGC to hold off on demolition. If the demolition would have happened everything else would have been a moot point.
The point with the Mercado is that we can't afford for to give so much money to newly formed entities that don't have the expertise or experience to manage the project. You have a lot of the same players involved with the Conservancy.
As far as spelling is concerned, are you always so anal?
The Conservancy had to post a bond to cover the increased costs of demolition if its plan fell through. The ironic [[and incorrect) theme of many posts is that "the City" is paying big for demolition. It's not and never was. The only difference in waiting [[and an ironic one) is that the OTSC will now be paying for the demo.
The Train Station isn't directly across the street from Tiger Stadium, but, it's close enough for discussion purposes.
An MOU is not exactly a contract. Even the City isn't stupid enough to give up its property in an MOU.
The selling of the metal was paying for the demolition. It wasn't costing the City or DEGC a dime out of pocket.
Non-profits still have the responsibility to keep a project active and open. You can't do that if you don't know how to manage a project.
Spending 33 million and getting nothing for it is the most profitable scenario? Yeah, right.
The DEGC may not have any money or a plan. But they do have possession [[there, happy) of the property which is far more than the Conservancy.
The DEGC is walking, they're walking away from the Conservancy.
There's still hope for the Conservancy. It's an election year and City Council has been sympathetic to their cause.
The DEGC will be responsible for the maintenance of the property, such as it is.
Oh, really???Quote:
Bulk of what cash, they don't have any.
Who was it then who paid the City of Detroit $350,000 as a security deposit to get the MOU signed in the first place?
Who is that has been paying $12,000 per month to secure and maintain the property for a couple of years now?
The OTSC has the cash in hand to complete this project, with the exception of the portions that are currently working their way through the federal bureaucracy.
Wow! You haven't been paying any attention to this project at all, have you?Quote:
Ernie Harwell is the one that initially got City Council to convince the DEGC to hold off on demolition.
It was the residents of the Corktown neighborhood - you know, the ones who vote in City Council elections - who convinced the City Council to put a stop to this madness. It was one particular member of the City Council [[JoAnn Watson, if I recall correctly) who convinced Ernie Harwell to get involved with the OTSC. Demolition was already held off long before Mr. Harwell had any involvement with the project.
You're assuming that the OTSC can't do that. Why?Quote:
Non-profits still have the responsibility to keep a project active and open. You can't do that if you don't know how to manage a project.
Why do you keep saying that we're "getting nothing for it"?Quote:
Spending 33 million and getting nothing for it is the most profitable scenario? Yeah, right.
So it wasn't S. Gary Spicer, who happens to be Ernie Harwell's attorney, who got Ernie Harwell involved, it was Joann Watson? And you're accusing me of not paying attention?
So, demolition had not been started when Ernie Harwell went to City Council and asked them to get DEGC to hold off and work with the Conservancy?
So, according to you, demoltion of 75% of Tiger Stadium is considered "holding off"?
You may want to think about hopping off that short yellow bus.
Less than 1% of a 33 million dollar project is nothing.
I'm assuming that the OTSC can't do it for the same reason I would never hire Matt Millen to run a football team. No experience.
Isn't a big part of their plan is to operate a museum? How many museums can you name in Detroit that aren't broke? In the end we'll have nothing for it. That's why I keep bringing up the Mercado. It's an excellent example of what happens when someone depends on government hand outs, and that's what the OTSC is, for funding and not the feasibility of the project itself.
What's become brutally obvious is that preservationist-types have NO representation in the City of Detroit. There's no one on council, no one in the mayor's office and no one in any other position of power or influence that can make a difference. Thus you get this kind of decision, ad nauseum.
So I'm left to wonder, is it a case of the preservationists and their allies being such a small group in Detroit that they're totally marginalized, or are they sufficient in number to merit some consideration and influence but they're incompetent at pulling the levers of power?
The city leaders are just plain ignorant. Here's an opportunity to really have something no other city has...
a converted historical ball park that serves the community and can be used as a tourist destination.
Instead of building a ball field from a corn field and "They will come", we can have a baseball treasure that is a historical landmark that people all over the country already know about.
I'd say this project is a no-brainer but people with no brains are tearing it down.
Good observation. It appears to be a combination of everything that you've pointed out. It's too bad that the conservationists and the businesses aren't working together, or at least aren't working together more.
I know I may seem hard on them, but I do appreciate the vision and tenacity that the OTSC brings to the table. Now, and please bear with me on this one, a lot could be accomplished if the OTSC's vision and tenacity were coupled with the resources and business sense of Matty Maroun and the DIBC.
In this case, the preservationists ARE the business [[OTSC is incorporated as a non-profit). It's the DEGC that--ONCE AGAIN--refuses to play ball with anyone else, or the reality of the current fiscal environment.
Really? Is that what you want? If Matty Maroun's business sense were used, Tiger Stadium would be left vacant [[and unmaintained) for another 10 years until the City threatens demolition anyway.
Personally, I don't see the attraction of vacant lots. For some reason, the DEGC thinks that development in the middle of a large city works the same as it does in the cornfields of Lapeer County. Hell--why not build more freeways through Detroit to encourage more development on these empty plots of land? It makes about as much sense as spending scarce funds on this demolition. Instead of waiting for OTSC to get the money, or better still--HELPING OTSC obtain financing--the City self-imposes a completely arbitrary deadline to "do something", and for what? The return on investment of a vacant lot is guaranteed to be negative, whereas under OTSC's plan, you have a developed piece of property that contributes to the neighborhood as well as to the tax rolls.
I hope Ty Cobb comes back from the dead and cleats these assholes at DEGC square in the chest.
Why does the DEGC act as they do? It's not like they're bucking the power structure or anything. The governance of the city doesn't give a shit about preservation because 97% of the citizens of Detroit don't give a shit about it either. They're either too preoccupied with their own haggard lives or they see preservation as a game rich white suburbanites and tourist hipsters play.
The Matty Maroun part was just an example. I used him because he's someone that most of the posters are familiar with. That's why I said bear with me, I'm aware about how people feel about him. Remember, he, Mike Illitch and some of the other entities such as Farbman that own a lot of properties in Detroit are business minded people that are willing to make decisions that benefit their businesses. If working with a group like the OTSC is going to get people off of his back about a second span, Matty Maroun would probably be willing to make a deal. In the same sense, Illitch would probably be willing to do the same thing if it could benefit him in securing a new Hockey Arena. That's all I'm saying. You're right, the OTSC is a business, a non-profit business. I'm not against non-profits, I was simply referring to profit minded businesses when I said business.
Do you really believe that's a fair assessment of how Detroiters feel? When you look at what you and ghettopalmetto are saying, what should you expect from the City if that's how you feel about them? I certainly wouldn't classify the Mexicantown/Corktown and Warrendale areas as rich white suburbanites and tourist hipsters or as people living haggard lives. I think you're doing them a disservice. On this one, you're also doing City Council a disservice, they've sided with the OTSC every time that they've come to the table.
The OTSC made a lot of mistakes in my opinion.
Once Harwell left they didn't have anyone who was a recognizable personality.
They needed a Jeff Daniels type person or a former Tigers player[[s) who could draw more attention to their organization.
They should have made the donations refundable if the deal fell apart. After 10 years and many extensions to raise money this deal seemed shaky at best. There was no way I was going to give them my money in this bad economy if there was no chance I could get it back if their plan didn't go forward.
I sent them an email this past September and stated that needed some answers to a few questions before I made a decision on whether I was going to contribute to their organization. They never responded to my email. I sent the same email a few weeks later and again no response. Someone already mentioned this, but they appeared to be disorganized in how they went about things.
I would have loved to see something done with what remains of TS, but I never felt all that confident that the OTSC was competent enough to pull it off.
Businesses don't cut expenses to prosperity.
Cities don't demolish buildings to prosperity.
oh come on. no doubt communication could have been better, but when dealing with an entity like the city that had little interest in actually and actively making something happen, it's an uphill battle. OTSC was competent enough to get a federal earmark, work to get the site historically designated, get rendering made, scope out project costs and sources, including the identification of millions of historic tax credits that will be lost with the structure demolished. this like countless other for profit [[and non profit) projects is made more difficult from our dismal economy and the lack of access to capital at the moment.
i fail to understand how keeping the structure up is hurting anyone, especially if the OTSC has the money to keep carrying it on a monthly basis already in the bank. since there is NO FUNDED ALTERNATIVE PLAN for the site, let it alone. the DEGC has MUCH MORE productive activities it could be pursuing that are more in line with its mission to DEVELOP the city.
The OTSC had an active State Rep on the board up until January 1st. Having access to Federal money wasn't an issue. Had they stuck with their origianl plan that cost 15 million dollars they might have been okay, the 4 million from Levin and the historic tax credits would have covered that amount, but, once the plan ballooned to 33 million dollars they were unable to bridge the gap. Inexperience, you don't deviate from the plan until the Stadium is in your hands.
if it's steve tobocman, he is a former state rep. not sure if you're speaking of someone else. also, not sure how much he had to do with the earmark. the community had been talking about it for years and have been making inroads for a long time, so am not sure how relevant that is. if projected differences in budgets are any measure of being inexperienced, then nothing would ever get built. i've heard "final numbers" for the book ranging from $177-$200 million....hmmm...that's a lot of money.
from the onset the city had little to no intention of handing over the property and they [[with countless projects) and other private for profits development projects have a long and storied history of being over budget... so that's kind of a red herring that you're driving at, as has been suggested elsewhere.
the OTSC does not yet have the development dollars in place for the project [[like many many many other projects all over the country right now), but it doesn't mean there aren't experienced people involved...lawyers, architects, succesful business owners, people with non-profit development experience, including real estate development, etc. etc.
i think the real point is NOBODY has had experience with a project like this...in the whole country...it would be one of a kind unique, which is the glaring, ugly travesty. knocking down this structure [[without a higher better use in place) only underscores with a dripping, irony laden black mark that the city and its leadership are woefully inadequate to the task at hand and have no vision to see an alternative, progressive vision for the city.
Thanks to whomever mentioned that George Jackson was mentioned on Olbermann yesterday. I found the clip on the MSNBC website if anyone else is interested: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#31073593
Also, as an aside, I think it's important to remember that all of the people working at the Conservancy were volunteers, and a lot of them have very important careers. I doubt they had enough manpower to respond to each and every email they received, but I am sure every spare moment they had was spent on the cause. Personally, I think that they have done a wonderful job so far, and I hope that the mayor gets on board.
There is absolutely no reason to repeat the past. Detroit is doomed if we continue this destructive, self-hating pattern of suburban development. Even if DEGC is worried about the Conservancy getting the earmarks, they have no plans for the site and [[they admit) no one interested in developing there. When there are people interested in preserving the site, and literally no one interested in knocking it down to develop there, I think the solution should be pretty clear. Too bad so much of our city's leadership is blind.
Yes, I'm referring to Steve Tobocman, and up until January 1st of this year he was a State Rep. He's also a Board Member and was one while he was a State Rep. In today's environment of politicians hooking up politicians added to the fact that the OTSC isn't returning any of the money they're receiving that could be extremely relevant. If you were to take this exact same situation and replace the names of Tobocman and Levin and replace them with Kilpatrick and Kilpatrick this would be a completely different conversation and we all know it. The difference in the numbers is not the indication of inexperience, it's the not knowing to keep your mouth shut until you have the property in your hand that's the tell-tell sign of their inexperience. The casinos never said anything about not moving to the riverfront until they had their temporary casinos up and running. Do you see the difference?
As far as timelines and red herrings. Have there been any timelines that the OTSC didn't agree to or suggest themselves? They never put themselves in a position were they had any type of leverage. Those other projects you're looking at probably did have leverage and that makes all of the difference in the world. It's not the point of having business experience with a project like this, it's about having business experience period. The Conservancy is made up of some extremely talented people, but trust me on this, THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR EXPERIENCE. There is not a succesful group of people in any field that is going to argue against that.