How EM-controlled DPS ruined a school for teen moms with a 90 percent graduation rate

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Originally Posted by Detroit Stylin

Oh you mean like the United States

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Well there's always Canada. We can't all be perfect

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

OK, I'll take up the defense of the US.

Sure, we aren't perfect. But I don't see the point in beating ourselves up. Add up all our errors, and we're still dozens of times better than pretty much everyone else.

We should be very proud of ourselves for being the best protector of liberty, yet still strive to be even better.

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https://www.iraqbodycount.org/
http://costsofwar.org/article/afghan-civilians
Don't start arguments about moral superiority because, unfortunately, we're all pieces of shit.

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Originally Posted by davewindsor

How is it equality if the school board spends $12G per student when other charter schools are getting much less? They can just as easily get equality by taking a distance ed high school course for a lot less cost to the school board. Give them a number and no name and you'll never know if the student is a boy, girl, white, black or hispanic with distance ed. There's your equality. The test scores will ultimately reveal whether the student can handle themselves at university. It's that simple.

This school wasn't about educational equality and this school did not properly prepare their students academically for university. It was just a diploma mill that gave students a high school diploma they probably shouldn't have gotten anyway because all they did was just micromanaged their students' family lives for better salaries and getting more than double the school funding. I doubt that these high school graduates have anywhere near the same success graduating from a college or a university any more than a student from a much lower funded public or charter school. It really comes down to the student taking responsibility for their own success, which they can do in any learning environment if they really wanted to. Do I really need to get into anecdotes about some of the most successful people in the world that grew up in some of the worst conditions in the world?

Please reread what the school’s principal, G. Asenath Andrews, says. I mean, the principal is ranting that a student getting a C or less is like an A even though MEAP [[the Michigan Educational Assessment Program, the standardarized test for all public school students in Michigan) says that A is really a C or less. Yet, this C or less under MEAP somehow qualifies them to get into and graduate from a university? He's defending a diploma mill. It's ridiculous:

“If you look at MEAP scores, they’re not going to look good,” Andrews says. “I think we get the students ready. If you talk to kids, I think we’d get an A. If you look at MEAP we wouldn’t even get a C. We are a good school; we are not a great school. If we had a great school we’d have to start producing the kinds of test scores that make us look great. It starts with, ‘Is she OK? Is she living in a safe place? Is she getting prenatal care?’ Then you get to, ‘Did she do her homework.’ Our kids come with so much stuff to worry about, we never worried about test scores. If you base anything on just one standard, it’s not a true indication of what’s going on.” http://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/sc...nt?oid=2180156 [[upper middle of the article).

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The traditional districts are saddled with legacy costs. Compare the dollars per pupil less the legacy costs if you want an apples to apples comparison.

Of course, it is always easier just running away from the legacy costs and leaving that with other people.

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Originally Posted by jt1

The traditional districts are saddled with legacy costs. Compare the dollars per pupil less the legacy costs if you want an apples to apples comparison.

Of course, it is always easier just running away from the legacy costs and leaving that with other people.

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I don't see that anyone reasonable would object to addressing legacy costs. If all the energy that has gone into fighting against charters went into efforts to get the State to pickup legacy costs, I think that would have been done years ago.

Your point is valid. Detroit built schools for students that have moved to the suburbs. If these buildings were not fully depreciated, that's a huge legacy cost.

Are building costs in the per-pupil costs? And what are the other 'legacy' costs other than self-imposed legacy such as a bureaucracy much larger than needed? I'd like to understand this better.

According to the Free Press article from which I took the $12,000 annual cost per pupil for the old DPS Catherine Ferguson Academy, building costs were factored in the total.

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Originally Posted by jt1

The traditional districts are saddled with legacy costs. Compare the dollars per pupil less the legacy costs if you want an apples to apples comparison.

Of course, it is always easier just running away from the legacy costs and leaving that with other people.

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It's a charter school. They have the option of building a new school or renovating an existing older school. What's your point? This diploma mill is somehow good value for the taxpayer?

From the article, first year enrollment is 400 students first come, first serve. 400 x $12,000 = $4.8M

From the article, 18 students per teacher.

So, let's say you need 22 teachers to micromanage 400 students. Let's assume this micromanager/teacher makes $40K a year [[since the article didn't mention their salaries). That's 22 x $40K = $880,000. That leaves you with $3.92m [[82% of that voucher money) for the building maintenance, other operating expenses, the principal's salary, corporate administration and the charter investor's cut. There's probably a multiplier of 3 or 4 here to deal with each year of 400 students. I'm just inputting the data that was available.

Sure, the cost of building the facility mortgage is paid off on a building built in the 1920s vs. building new with a construction mortgage, but the maintenance and operating costs of an old building is usually more than just building new. Wasn't that the argument for the public school board building a new Cass Tech and demolishing the old one?

It's apples to apples. Bottom line: I still don't see the $12,000 per pupil of taxpayer dollars justification for this school when other schools are less than half that per pupil cost.

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Originally Posted by motz

You do understand the Al Jazeera has infinitely more journalistic credibility and integrity than CNN, Fox and MSNBC combined, right? They are a great source for articles that report the news in a factual manner and let you decide how you feel on the subject. A piece like this is factual, it tells you how the EM targeted this school in particle, specifically by cutting off its funding life line even though the school was what one would consider a model school.

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Yes, if only we could have more news sources from country's that have a absolute monarchy. A law system based on religious views, and of course treat women like cattle instead of human beings. These are the journalistic environments that breed the best journalism.

Once again - the $12,000 per student figure was for the OLD, DPS owned Catherine Ferguson Academy. It was not sustainable and, of course, may have been unjustifiable when MOST DPS students could be classified as at-risk and the district was spending only $6000 on each of them.
The charter school that took it over may have had a different price per pupil.

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Originally Posted by SWMAP

Once again - the $12,000 per student figure was for the OLD, DPS owned Catherine Ferguson Academy. It was not sustainable and, of course, may have been unjustifiable when MOST DPS students could be classified as at-risk and the district was spending only $6000 on each of them.
The charter school that took it over may have had a different price per pupil.

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Sure, it may not have been sustainable. But don't you want your school districts to be able to experiment, without complaints of unfairness at each and every turn?

Should we spend double on a certain demographic of students? Well, I don't know. But I'd like the school district to be able to try. I support the district's right to try new ideas that might not always involve exactly fair spending per student, nor exactly the same class size or exactly the same methods. We need diversity in our approaches so we can see what works.

Too bad we ran out of cash. Too bad the radical left squashed the charter using the cloak of 'fairness' to all.

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Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Yes, if only we could have more news sources from country's that have a absolute monarchy. A law system based on religious views, and of course treat women like cattle instead of human beings. These are the journalistic environments that breed the best journalism.

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Ah, yes. The old "Them Arabs is horrible" argument. Thank you, I see the problem with my views and have decided to watch CNN. Thank you, ABetterDetroit. I appreciate you.

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Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Yes, if only we could have more news sources from country's that have a absolute monarchy. A law system based on religious views, and of course treat women like cattle instead of human beings. These are the journalistic environments that breed the best journalism.

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Broad generalizations not helpful. What is essentially an ad hominem attack [[ad nationem?) not helpful.

All nations including our own fine country have social problems and failings. To discard Al Jazeera because they are supported by a less than perfect regime is in appropriate. Judge them on their product.

As people, cities, nations we are all imperfect. Let's hope that they continue to develop Al Jazeera as a credible news organization -- even while the nation isn't progressive as dear ABD requires.

Once, the US practiced slavery. Does not dimish Abraham Lincoln, does it? A true progressive would allow for the possibility that Qatar is a society with many diverse points of view -- and that Al Jazerra may be able to be a competent news organization with value even if funded by a flawed regime.

I haven't had a chance to check out today's Detroit News Special Investigation on
Detroit's infant mortality. Also I don't know the infant mortality stats for Catherine
Ferguson graduates. However, MEAP assessments and grades aside, if the care and
instruction Ferguson students received while at the school noticeably reduced the
percentage of premature births, then just monetarily speaking the school was probably
worth it, because premature babies are expensive to care for, and later on are doing
well if they manage to hold their own once they get to school.
Another point to consider is that if Head Start is worth the money invested in it, then
the extra money spent per Ferguson student could be thought of as the basic student
stipend with early Head Start spending for the little one added on. I am in no way an
expert in this. I don't know. Maybe it is as not as effective as having a pregnant
student in a regular school for the $6000 then spending Head Start money on the
young child later. But it is something to look at.

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Originally Posted by motz

Ah, yes. The old "Them Arabs is horrible" argument. Thank you, I see the problem with my views and have decided to watch CNN. Thank you, ABetterDetroit. I appreciate you.

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I said nothing of any particular ethnic group. You did, not me. I was obviously referring to the state of Qatar. If there is something I said that is not accurate I will be happy to supply sources on the "absolute monarchy in Qatar" the "system of law in Qatar being religion based" or the "lack of Women's rights in Qatar" just ask and I will post. You were the one that transferred the issue to "Arabs". I think that is really racist to anyone that is of Arab decent to equate them to the above issues.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Broad generalizations not helpful. What is essentially an ad hominem attack [[ad nationem?) not helpful.

All nations including our own fine country have social problems and failings. To discard Al Jazeera because they are supported by a less than perfect regime is in appropriate. Judge them on their product.

As people, cities, nations we are all imperfect. Let's hope that they continue to develop Al Jazeera as a credible news organization -- even while the nation isn't progressive as dear ABD requires.

Once, the US practiced slavery. Does not dimish Abraham Lincoln, does it? A true progressive would allow for the possibility that Qatar is a society with many diverse points of view -- and that Al Jazerra may be able to be a competent news organization with value even if funded by a flawed regime.

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I discard Al Jezeera as a credible news source because it is so obviously Sunni sided on all complicated middle east issues that include anything Sunni AND Shia. I would equate it to accepting FOX news as a good source on the shooting of Trayvon Martin.

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Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

I discard Al Jezeera as a credible news source because it is so obviously Sunni sided on all complicated middle east issues that include anything Sunni AND Shia. I would equate it to accepting FOX news as a good source on the shooting of Trayvon Martin.

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Now that's more like it.

[[Me, I'm kinda glad to hear someone say something negative about AJ.)

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Not designed to harm, but designed to stablize the district that was destroyed by local control. EMs should not be viewed as saviors. They are just emergency workers dealing with the mess created by others.

I don't see how blaming the EM has any validity. They certainly should behave responsibly, but they are not the school board. Its the school board's job to protect excellent programs.

Why is the EM to blame, but not the school board that didn't protect these students and instead steered the ship towards the rock. No, let's blame the EM, yell about 'local control', and ignore that 'local control' is really what failed the students.

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I agree with Poobert! EMs [[ most of the time ) can be corrupt. EM's also can make very tough sacrifices from education to gov't public services. Most folks don't like it. But if they grants, benefits and solid good goodies from public taxation, you must cut the fat and get of lot of bad apples and spoiled the bunch.

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Originally Posted by davewindsor

How is it equality if the school board spends $12G per student when other charter schools are getting much less? They can just as easily get equality by taking a distance ed high school course for a lot less cost to the school board. Give them a number and no name and you'll never know if the student is a boy, girl, white, black or hispanic with distance ed. There's your equality. The test scores will ultimately reveal whether the student can handle themselves at university. It's that simple.

This school wasn't about educational equality and this school did not properly prepare their students academically for university. It was just a diploma mill that gave students a high school diploma they probably shouldn't have gotten anyway because all they did was just micromanaged their students' family lives for better salaries and getting more than double the school funding.....

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Fine points. I was not advocating for equality. I was defending administrators who are trying new ideas. If this was a failure, then good that it was killed. Does not mean that experimentation is a bad thing.

Al Jazeerreau is not that bad. You guys tend to demonize old crooners for no good reason.

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Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

I said nothing of any particular ethnic group. You did, not me. I was obviously referring to the state of Qatar. If there is something I said that is not accurate I will be happy to supply sources on the "absolute monarchy in Qatar" the "system of law in Qatar being religion based" or the "lack of Women's rights in Qatar" just ask and I will post. You were the one that transferred the issue to "Arabs". I think that is really racist to anyone that is of Arab decent to equate them to the above issues.

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You know that's basically the prescribed response for anyone who was walking the line about a race or religion, right? Good work, ABetterDetroit :)