Up Goes the Northern Wall: Windsor nurses working in Detroit denied entry to US

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Originally Posted by Richard

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Is this medical field so speclized that American citizens are exempt mentally to perform it?
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I don't see how citizenship matters. If HFHospital decides to hire a Canadian nurse, what's the problem? Its in our best interest to have the best professionals in jobs. Even if there are qualified Americans, I want the employer to make decisions on who to hire based on their judgement, not the judgment of Donald Trump, or Bernie Sanders.

If you're in the hospital needing attention, do you really care whether the specialist you need comes from Southfield or Techumseh? I'd like the best one please.

Then, just seconds after my last post, came across this in the Canadian media:

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/wo...gal-immigrants

Why are we so intolerant? Why do we hate Canadians so much? Please, Mr. Trump, let these undocumented citizens stay.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

I don't see how citizenship matters. If HFHospital decides to hire a Canadian nurse, what's the problem? Its in our best interest to have the best professionals in jobs. Even if there are qualified Americans, I want the employer to make decisions on who to hire based on their judgement, not the judgment of Donald Trump, or Bernie Sanders.

If you're in the hospital needing attention, do you really care whether the specialist you need comes from Southfield or Techumseh? I'd like the best one please.

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If totally left up to employers it's far more likely they would choose the cheapest route over the "best".

Honestly, it's Canada that has more to lose than the U.S. They're training nursing specialists and doctors just to see many of them leave for the higher salaries offered across the border. That's a huge drain on their healthcare system, and it's becoming a major problem for them.

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Originally Posted by Johnnny5

If totally left up to employers it's far more likely they would choose the cheapest route over the "best".

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I prefer to think that they'd choose the most efficient -- the link between quality and cost.

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Originally Posted by Johnnny5

Honestly, it's Canada that has more to lose than the U.S. They're training nursing specialists and doctors just to see many of them leave for the higher salaries offered across the border. That's a huge drain on their healthcare system, and it's becoming a major problem for them.

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So you're saying that the US benefits from immigrant [[or border-hopping) labor. Yes, I agree. So long as the migrant provides value to their community, the community would be wise to accept them.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Then, just seconds after my last post, came across this in the Canadian media:

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/wo...gal-immigrants

Why are we so intolerant? Why do we hate Canadians so much? Please, Mr. Trump, let these undocumented citizens stay.

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Trump probably won't go after these illegals, because they're mostly white. Everyone knows Trump is an anti-minority nativist who won because he promised to stick it to brown people.

He even married an illegal, but loves to demonize nonwhite immigrants, and then when people call him [[and his deplorables) bigots, they make the nonsensical claim that, all evidence to the contrary, they're only against "illegal" immigration.

Yeah, right. That's why they're trying to deport American citizens, ban legal visa holders from entering the country, and even walling off our borders though most illegals come through airports. He, and his horrible sycophants, will be purged from this country, and it won't be pretty.

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Originally Posted by EastsideAl

"Instead of going after 20-30 million undocumented people, why not just go after their employers who are making the real money from utilizing them ? Le Orange never mentions that side...just killers, rapists, and pot growers."

Because that wouldn't serve their purposes of scapegoating the working poor, and pandering to ignorant xenophobia, in order to let their rich buddies and benefactors off the hook.

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This. Trump will NEVER go after the employers of illegals.

This is the only reason the U.S. has any illegal immigration, yet Trump won't do the one easy thing that every other country does to stem illegal immigration. He's a liar, bigot and scumbag.

Yup..open borders = cheap labor.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

I prefer to think that they'd choose the most efficient -- the link between quality and cost.


So you're saying that the US benefits from immigrant [[or border-hopping) labor. Yes, I agree. So long as the migrant provides value to their community, the community would be wise to accept them.

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The hospital benefits, but I don't see how the community benefits. These Canadian nurses leave the hospital and take the majority of their wages back to Canada. If the positions were held by legal residents those could be new members for the community being served.

I'm not opposed to foreign workers legally working here in the U.S [[When they are truly needed), but I am firmly opposed to it being used as a cost saving measure that negatively affects the American workers that would have been filling those positions [[Which is the case far more often than not).

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Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

How about pushing hate, scapegoating and nationalism heavily in order to seize political power to further their own personal agenda?

Just a suggestion on account that has happened repeatedly before in politics and human history.

Big conspiracies are far more rare.

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You can call them conspiracies, or you can call it pushing buttons.

Today, an interesting bit on the Chump;

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...ump-presidency

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Originally Posted by canuck

You can call them conspiracies, or you can call it pushing buttons.

Today, an interesting bit on the Chump;

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...ump-presidency

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So then it was't the Russians?

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

I don't see how citizenship matters. If HFHospital decides to hire a Canadian nurse, what's the problem? Its in our best interest to have the best professionals in jobs. Even if there are qualified Americans, I want the employer to make decisions on who to hire based on their judgement, not the judgment of Donald Trump, or Bernie Sanders.

If you're in the hospital needing attention, do you really care whether the specialist you need comes from Southfield or Techumseh? I'd like the best one please.

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So what happens if something goes wrong? Sorry they left in the middle of the night back to their country.

The hospital in the OP is not talking about care nurses,they are referring to anithiesoligists [[bad spelling) and requires a bachelor degree on the US side.

As long as we are picking and choosing what laws we can follow or not ,I purpose that we eliminate the RICO act and look the other way when it comes to organized crime as it would be in the countries best interest to actually put some leadership back into the criminal aspect.

I also think that the criminal court system needs to be shut down,because why would anybody say he or she is a fellow American so put them in jail and that foreigner they get a pass because I think the law they broke is okay.

You either have laws or you do not,you cannot pick and choose which laws you wish to follow,well I have not been able to anyways.

Move to Canada illegally and see what happens,if you get caught you get sent back,just like we do,why?

Because they are also a nation of laws that have repercussions if they are not followed.

Funny how that works,if the US follows the laws on the books then we are not compassionate but any other country can retain and inforce their laws and nobody says nothing.

Who ever does not agree with this,next time your house is robbed,you are mugged or any crime is committed against you,do not worry about it because we now have a selective and compassionate legal system of laws and the perpetrator just needed the money or goods to feed their babies so it is okay.

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Originally Posted by Richard

So what happens if something goes wrong? Sorry they left in the middle of the night back to their country.

The hospital in the OP is not talking about care nurses,they are referring to anithiesoligists [[bad spelling) and requires a bachelor degree on the US side.

As long as we are picking and choosing what laws we can follow or not ,I purpose that we eliminate the RICO act and look the other way when it comes to organized crime as it would be in the countries best interest to actually put some leadership back into the criminal aspect.

I also think that the criminal court system needs to be shut down,because why would anybody say he or she is a fellow American so put them in jail and that foreigner they get a pass because I think the law they broke is okay.

You either have laws or you do not,you cannot pick and choose which laws you wish to follow,well I have not been able to anyways.

Move to Canada illegally and see what happens,if you get caught you get sent back,just like we do,why?

Because they are also a nation of laws that have repercussions if they are not followed.

Funny how that works,if the US follows the laws on the books then we are not compassionate but any other country can retain and inforce their laws and nobody says nothing.

Who ever does not agree with this,next time your house is robbed,you are mugged or any crime is committed against you,do not worry about it because we now have a selective and compassionate legal system of laws and the perpetrator just needed the money or goods to feed their babies so it is okay.

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There are so many problematic issues here.

First off, nurses.

There are several types.

However, RNs in Canada.... [[all of them) have a 4-year Hon. B.A. in nursing.

Further, nurses w/additional training such as Nurse Practitioners [[can issue a variety of prescriptions and referrals) and those w/other specialty training have 4 yrs +

Unto itself that doesn't entitle them to work in the US or anywhere else for that matter.

But they are qualified for the jobs they seek, and we do produce a disproportionate number here, hence why quite a few are available to work across the border [[it is not strictly a salary issue, as RNs are quite well paid here).

There is, however, a lot of part-time rather than full-time work at the moment for them. There are a myriad reasons for that, but it certainly makes a F/T offer in the US more tempting, especially if you still get to live at home.

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I have no difficulty w/the argument that foreigners should obtain correct VISAs; though, its worth saying, anyone caught up in this particular discussion would easily qualify for an H1B so unless you're terribly exited about the hassle for the applicant or the extra 2k and change that that visa brings the gov't; it hardly makes a difference.

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I also have no difficulty w/the argument that large organizations take advantage of global labour markets to lower costs, at least in some, and sometimes in many cases.

That's simply true.

Is it wonderful? Or a panacea for local labour markets? No.

However, a few things are worth noting here.

These nurses are crossing the border [[in this particular case) for six-figure pay cheques.

This is not a case of 'cheap labour' causing harsh local conditions.

Know any Americans who are both qualified and willing to do this job for 100k? If so, there will be no more Cdn hires.

Turns out you're a tad under-supplied in this particular category.

Wanna change that? Great! But you'll have to increase student places available and probably lower tuition in order to fill them.

Not sure whose gonna pay for that............

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Let's then move on to 'entry to Canada'

I keep hearing how awful we are for turning down convicted criminals.

Ergo, you should deny entry to specialized nurses.

Really?

No one would be fussed if you turned down a nurse convicted of a serious crime.

That's not what was happening.

We don't refuse people w/legal work visas in Canada. [[and we dont' give those out to people w/serious criminal convictions) .

These nurses all had legal visas. [[and as such had passed background checks).

Sigh......

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Finally, yes, we refuse entry to people from time to time at the border, who do NOT have legal visas, and who also have criminal convictions.

But just as a matter of fact.....for better or worse.........we don't automatically deport people for entering the country illegally.

If you apply for refugee status.....we give you a hearing.....and consider the facts before deciding whether or not to deport you.

* [[only applies if you do not use a legal border crossing)

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Originally Posted by Richard

Maybe it is just Palm Springs which would be understandable but lots of Canadians in Fla and I have not heard of any reluctance, but maybe the sunshine overrides their political condemnations.

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I know one Canadian couple who has left for sure. Between the FL guv and President 2nd Place Winner they had enough. An anecdote, yes, but it happens.

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Originally Posted by Canadian Visitor

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windso...visa-1.4030179

New Wall, torn down.

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To quote from the above link…

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Work visas restored to specialized Canadian nurses working in U.S.
After a week of confusion, U.S. border officials are once again granting professional work visas to specialized Canadian nurses working at American hospitals.

Nurses and hospitals have been in a frenzy in the past week as visa applications for advanced practice nurses and advanced clinical nurse practitioners working in Detroit hospitals were denied.

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The problem still remains because anyone in that situation now has to wonder when the next shoe will drop. These abrupt actions don’t just cost waste and loss of money, they create instability and long term damage.

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Originally Posted by Colombian Dan

Yup..open borders = cheap labor.

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The U.S. has probably the tightest borders of any first world nation on the planet.

And I have never heard anyone ever advocate for "open borders". Trump cultists love to rant and rave about "open borders" but there has never been such a thing.

If Trump said there were pink unicorns galloping down Pennsylvania Ave., I have no doubt his cultists would swear it were true. Even Trump bragged he could shoot someone dead right on Fifth Ave., and it wouldn't matter to his hard-core cultists. And he's right.

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If Trump said there were pink unicorns galloping down Pennsylvania Ave., I have no doubt his cultists would swear it were true. Even Trump bragged he could shoot someone dead right on Fifth Ave.

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So you haven't read this mornings toilet tweet ??

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Originally Posted by Canadian Visitor

There are so many problematic issues here.

First off, nurses.

There are several types.

However, RNs in Canada.... [[all of them) have a 4-year Hon. B.A. in nursing.

Further, nurses w/additional training such as Nurse Practitioners [[can issue a variety of prescriptions and referrals) and those w/other specialty training have 4 yrs +

Unto itself that doesn't entitle them to work in the US or anywhere else for that matter.

But they are qualified for the jobs they seek, and we do produce a disproportionate number here, hence why quite a few are available to work across the border [[it is not strictly a salary issue, as RNs are quite well paid here).

There is, however, a lot of part-time rather than full-time work at the moment for them. There are a myriad reasons for that, but it certainly makes a F/T offer in the US more tempting, especially if you still get to live at home.

***

I have no difficulty w/the argument that foreigners should obtain correct VISAs; though, its worth saying, anyone caught up in this particular discussion would easily qualify for an H1B so unless you're terribly exited about the hassle for the applicant or the extra 2k and change that that visa brings the gov't; it hardly makes a difference.

***

I also have no difficulty w/the argument that large organizations take advantage of global labour markets to lower costs, at least in some, and sometimes in many cases.

That's simply true.

Is it wonderful? Or a panacea for local labour markets? No.

However, a few things are worth noting here.

These nurses are crossing the border [[in this particular case) for six-figure pay cheques.

This is not a case of 'cheap labour' causing harsh local conditions.

Know any Americans who are both qualified and willing to do this job for 100k? If so, there will be no more Cdn hires.

Turns out you're a tad under-supplied in this particular category.

Wanna change that? Great! But you'll have to increase student places available and probably lower tuition in order to fill them.

Not sure whose gonna pay for that............

***

Let's then move on to 'entry to Canada'

I keep hearing how awful we are for turning down convicted criminals.

Ergo, you should deny entry to specialized nurses.

Really?

No one would be fussed if you turned down a nurse convicted of a serious crime.

That's not what was happening.

We don't refuse people w/legal work visas in Canada. [[and we dont' give those out to people w/serious criminal convictions) .

These nurses all had legal visas. [[and as such had passed background checks).

Sigh......

***

Finally, yes, we refuse entry to people from time to time at the border, who do NOT have legal visas, and who also have criminal convictions.

But just as a matter of fact.....for better or worse.........we don't automatically deport people for entering the country illegally.

If you apply for refugee status.....we give you a hearing.....and consider the facts before deciding whether or not to deport you.

* [[only applies if you do not use a legal border crossing)

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Not sure we are talking about the same thing here. Are the Canadian RN practitioners acting as CRNA's in the US? If so that could be considered a move to weaken the pay structure of the profession. The CRNA degree is a masters program.

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Originally Posted by GMan

Not sure we are talking about the same thing here. Are the Canadian RN practitioners acting as CRNA's in the US? If so that could be considered a move to weaken the pay structure of the profession. The CRNA degree is a masters program.

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Nurse Practitioner

OR same with anesthetist designation

are Masters and post-masters programs in Canada

I have never had a issue entering Canada at one of our local crossings. After the usual dialogue any customs person ask at borders anywhere is the half a dozen questions worded differently about use/ownership and carrying/transporting of firearms and handguns in particular to try and get a idea if you need a search for these deadly weapons.

It only makes logical sense as they see the citizens of their country safer and better off alive rather then dead due to the much higher per-capita firearm death rate in the US so they have zero interest in increasing theirs.

Each time this line of questioning happens to me I have a strong feeling that there is something very uncivilized about the US at a simple basic level and that intelligent logical people in foreign countries view Americans as potential nut bags often.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

So then it was't the Russians?

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Maybe a bit of both... This from a Toronto commentator;

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-co...itary-alliance


It was Norman Jewison [[a Toronto born filmmaker) who sounded the horn back in the sixties with his "The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming."

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Originally Posted by canuck

Maybe a bit of both... This from a Toronto commentator;

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-co...itary-alliance


It was Norman Jewison [[a Toronto born filmmaker) who sounded the horn back in the sixties with his "The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming."

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"Emergency, emergency, everybody to get from street..."

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

"Emergency, emergency, everybody to get from street..."

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Great movie.

I finished reading the article I posted the link to. Check it out. It is pretty telling.


By which I mean the New Yorker article...

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Originally Posted by Canadian Visitor

Nurse Practitioner

OR same with anesthetist designation

are Masters and post-masters programs in Canada

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Thanks.
Found an article on the history and evolution of the program in Canada.
Interesting. It seems as if they are similar P.A.s with the ability to diagnose and dispense meds to treat patients. Over 50% of the registered Nurse Practitioners from the Canadian program are in Ontario.
The origins were to supplement rural healthcare access but over 74% of N.P.s are in Urban areas.
Seems like their origins are an attempt to eliminate bottlenecks in healthcare access.
I'm sure the HFHS is using their abilities to do the same here.

Not sure why there would be a shortage of candidates in the Detroit metro region with Wayne State and UM Med schools in the region as well as all the nursing programs in the area. Might be a retention problem.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

I don't see how citizenship matters. If HFHospital decides to hire a Canadian nurse, what's the problem? Its in our best interest to have the best professionals in jobs. Even if there are qualified Americans, I want the employer to make decisions on who to hire based on their judgement, not the judgment of Donald Trump, or Bernie Sanders.

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Also, jobs where you have to be physically present aren't a big deal to have filled by people in other countries. There are limits as to how far you can commute. People who are from Canada and work in the USA also feed money back into our economy.

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Originally Posted by Johnnny5

The hospital benefits, but I don't see how the community benefits. These Canadian nurses leave the hospital and take the majority of their wages back to Canada. If the positions were held by legal residents those could be new members for the community being served.

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I'd prefer my healthcare decisions be made in the interest of my health, by being inclusive. The alternative is to prohibit an otherwise qualified person from caring for me.

The downside you suggest is that somehow Canadians squirrel away their money, and its not available to us. In fact, the odds are that the nearby Canadian spends money in the US regularly. Dinners in downtown Detroit, employing servers. Tickets to Baseball, employing ushers and housekeepers. Shopping at our malls, employing sales clerks, truck drivers, etc. Or perhaps when they save enough, buying property in Florida, employing American real estate agents. They might fly to Europe on Delta out of Detroit, employing American pilots, stewards, and caterers. They may invest their earnings in the US Stock Market, rather than the TSX, employing computer programmers to create investing bots, and returning some of that money to thieving bankers. Or shopping at Walmart in Windsor where some of the profits are returned to Arkansas and the American economy.

I see no logic in limiting skilled labor. We all benefit when we get the best service at the best price. Everyone. I see ZERO harm to our economy.

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Originally Posted by Johnnny5

I'm not opposed to foreign workers legally working here in the U.S [[When they are truly needed), but I am firmly opposed to it being used as a cost saving measure that negatively affects the American workers that would have been filling those positions [[Which is the case far more often than not).

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So in other words, you'd rather the local nurse be given a leg up? That's great. That nurse was going to take an extra course on advanced nursing. But he'll pass on that now. And hope that after the Canadian nurses get kicked out -- he'll have a job anyway. Bingo! You've removed an incentive for excellence -- and replaced it with a protected market.

To assume that its just a cost-saving measure is a mistake. Quality doesn't just exist. It is created. And we pay for quality.

Trade may produce cost savings, but that's not the purpose. The purpose is to free us to choose the best product at the best price. And that's good for everyone. Especially for Detroit citizens.