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Not to pile on considering the mortgage business, but…
https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2022/07/20/ford-layoff-8000-ev-transition/10112304002/?gnt-cfr=1
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ford-cut-8000-jobs-bloomberg-news-2022-07-20/
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/video...s-in-evs-video
Oh well, welcome to the motor city.
1970s
Hungry ? Eat your rice burner
2022
Hungry ? Eat your EV.
No big deal though,boss man said they could go get jobs making solar panels,thanks for your vote,we take care of our own.
At this rate there are going to be 267,236 laid off workers across the country competing for the 6 solar panel manufacturing job openings.
And so the divide between the haves and have nots keeps growing.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...0yQpQ8ojYCeVHl
Richard, Huh?....
You must be young?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid
1970s tariffs were lowered on the import of Japanese cars which caused a lot of layoffs in the domestic automobile market as they took hold.
Bumper stickers read - Hungry? Eat your rice burners. Lots of domestic auto workers were also buying imports,which put themselves out of a job.
The second part was about when the new administration came in,he made it clear that CC was on the agenda and promised to shut fracking down,which equate to thousands of job losses there.
When asked where those people were expected to find jobs,his reply was,they can go make solar panels.
The 3rd part is the unions were supposed to protect jobs,the same unions that supported the administration that is dumping those jobs,is who the union supported.
As a union why would you deliberately support a cause while knowing full well it will decimate your labor force?
Better?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Honky Tonk
The worlds largest wine cellar for the rich is in Moldova,he flys his jet there and back ……. To pick up 1 bottle of wine from storage.
His Gulfstream GIV-SP burns 447 GPH that is 8940 gallons round trip which at todays prices that would be $42,292.60,to go pick up a bottle of wine.
Granted it is probably not MD 20/20 but for us little plebs in the world that is like 95,000 trips to Walmart for a $9 bottle of wine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Then why bother?
I guess he figures those that can,can,those who cannot,cannot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Honky Tonk
The hypocrisy of it all is just par the course with that crowd.
I wonder how many bottles of ketchup one needs to sell,just for 1 flight.
Isn't the funding of new product development funded by the OEM's profits? Always thought the formula was to reinvest those profits.
I guess in 2022, new product development is funded by cutting thousands of jobs instead. Interesting......
The key phrase^ in the mad scramble to EV. How else do they go from 27K EV's in 2021 to two million in 2026? Will that actually happen?
In March, Farley boosted Ford's spending on EVs to $50 billion, up from $30 billion through 2026. He set a plan to build two million EVs a year by 2026. Last year, Ford sold 27,140 EVs.
Ford's crosstown rival, General Motors, is investing $35 billion in EV and self-driving car technology by middecade with the goal to sell one million EVs in the U.S. by that time.
Farley has said workforce reduction is a key to boosting profits, which have eroded on its Mustang Mach-E and other plug-in models because of the automaker's increased costs for commodities and warranties.
“We have too many people,” Farley said at a Wolfe Research auto conference in February. “This management team firmly believes that our ICE and BEV portfolios are under-earning.”
https://freep-mi.newsmemory.com?publ...4db6b1_1348555
So Ford gets $100M tax break to create/retain jobs in MI, decides to cut 8000 people months later. Ford has 31,000 salaried employees, so they are going to slash over 25% of their workforce?
That's not "we have too many people", that's "we have completely mismanaged our headcount & there are way too many people collecting a check and doing nothing."
Ford will boost EV spending from $30B to $50B. Slashing 8000 jobs [[lets say average salary is $80K) saves you $640M. Even if you consider all the other costs associated with those employees, it might save you a couple billion, maybe??? Pretty BIG gap to get to that $50B number when Farley states that workforce reduction will be the primary driver of cost savings.
I saw on the news this morning that it will be "up to" 8000 employees and they haven't decide on the mix between white and blue collar
I don't think he's young... I was around then, as was he... and I don't recall ever seeing one of those bumper stickers? Was that maybe a Florida thingy? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Doing a Google search on "Hungry yet Eat your rice burner"... reveals no bumper sticker results...
https://www.google.com/search?q=Hung...ih=577&dpr=1.5
But if you use that quote for a Tee Shirt search, it reveals 1980s Harley Davison T-shirts.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Hung...ih=577&dpr=1.5
I don't think he's too young... the problem lies elsewhere... :rolleyes:
I am not young either and never saw or heard the eat your rice burner thing either. The bumper sticker that was popular in the 70's recession was "Michigan: Last one out, turn the lights off" because so many people were picking up and moving to Texas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
Salaried designer friend of mine at Ford said last night that the company essentially split in 2. ICE and EV.Quote:
Originally Posted by jcole
The 8,000 jobs are supposed to all come out of salaried ICE, so essentially they're firing 1/2 of their gas car staff.
Glad my son in law moved to GM last year
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket
Hmm. The "Go to first new post" button doesn't seem to work on this thread.
Not that it matters. It's just odd.
Maybe it has something to do with the unconventional title. Maybe it's just me. :confused:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
I have to agree with you Gistok, I've never seen one of those bumper stickers either, and I was born and raised here. BTW is 62 too young?
Naw.... although compared to the 1800s... 60s is the new 30s.... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid
You keep thinking everybody’s life should mimic yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
I cannot say if it was a Florida thing because in the 1970s I was a teenager in Minneapolis,where my uncle was a line supervisor for Ford and he had one on his car,as did others.
Those that bought a foreign car were not even allowed to park them in the parking lot,or they would come out to slashed tires or busted glass.
It could very well have not been a thing in the Detroit region because people may have just by nature been more domestic loyal.
Of course you will not find it on Google,because these days many will find it racist,you cannot find a I love Nazis bumper sticker either and sense bumper stickers have not really been a part of the scene for at least 40 years,who really thinks about them?
There was a life before Google:rolleyes:
It went further then with just cars because there were many in the workforce still that fought against the Japanese in WW2 and there was a lot of animosity still,and the market was beginning to be flooded with Asian products which was costing American jobs.
Datsun changed the name to Nissan because they figured Datsun was to Japanese sounding.
I have never worked on a line,so I guess they do not exist.
^Not saying the bumper stickers don't exist... just I and several other Michiganian's don't remember seeing them here in Michigan. Maybe as I said they showed up elsewhere.
^ it could have been being Detroit was the big three and so dependent that people were not so quick to accept the foreign influx so they never gave it a second thought because of that loyalty.
Back then Minnesota had a diverse manufacturing sector that got hit hard with the massive influx of cheap foreign products.
K-Mart got hit the hardest with repercussions because they were the first ones there to carry all that cheap stuff,it was considered the dollar store of today.
It was Daytons on the high end,Hudson’s for the middle class,Sears for the lower middle class,then if you were really broke it was K-Mart.
But it was mainly targeting Japanese cars and motorcycles.
Back on target,Ford did announce during the pandemic that they were going to create 2 separate automobiles divisions and phase out the ice part.
But then they also got into the HP crate motors that have been selling out as soon as they stock them,drop in 1000 HP in a crate engine. That had to been millions in development.
It also shows they are not interested in cross job training with existing workers and that they need way less workers when it comes to EVs,which is also going to cut way down on cross border parts and less revenue for the state.
Goodness! I have a younger friend working on one of the Ford assembly lines with a family. I hope he keeps his job. I worked at FOMOCO white-collar in their marketing area part-time, many years ago.
I was in college and drove, of course, a used tiny-tot Toyota Tercel and was gently reminded by coworkers to park it far back on the lot. Nothing too harsh, but you knew. My car was never touched/ damaged.
Heard the 'rice burner' jokes too. I even slid in the purchase of a used Escort that ran great but overall I find Fords to have weak components and not durable though my Escort made it over 200K! Yet I never purchased Ford again.
We purchase used vehicles deciding to do other things than pay financing charges. That led to learning about and finding vehicles with proven ability to run long and strong. Good reviews over the years - and minimal recalls as well.
Over the years that has been Toyota and Honda. Mostly Toyota.
The 'rice burner', disloyalty to US autoworkers didn't impact me much as we purchase used. Not impacting US automakers directly. I've little confidence in what Ford will do EV-wise. They've given up on sedans and problematic units such as the Ford Focus speaks to why some are ok with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcole
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P2bPk6rhMI
Old Scotty's on one re. Fords EV's...:cool:......
Ford's New Mavericks are Already Having Major Engine Problems [DO NOT Buy]
Toyota was originally Toyoda! Yet still unapologetically Japanese.
I get a chuckle out of folks forgetting that Nissan was once Datsun. I was early on purchasing compact Japanese cars after the horrors of owning a Chevette or two, but Datsun was never considered... just too tiny and narrow!
Sure there were the 280Z's, fast and fresh. But anyone remember this Datsun?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rGsiuqU3e4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
I sure hope this isn't true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zacha341
[And there's plenty of hope to believe it may not be. I've watched 4-5 of Scotty Kilmer's videos, and he's was out to lunch in all of them.]
Last I heard there were 3-4 recalls on the Maverick, none being engine related [as compared to 11 on the F150].
Some reports on forums of trans shuddering when switching into EV mode, but nothing that would warrant a DO Not Buy warning.
^ Yeah indeed Scotty can be koo-koo at times :o! I've been purchasing used cars for decades before knowing of him. In some cases he affirms what I already know/ learned. Here, he references recalls that if true are made public and detailed ala the NTHSA. A consumer factor dealerships hate.
There's no excuse in buying a car 6-12 months out there sans reviewing. Even if you must sift thru the somewhat esoteric [Scotty] to other standard areas like Kelly Blue Book or others postings on youtube. And talking to mechanics. They know the problematic tinker-mobiles vs the strong runners.
Yet I have friends n' family who walk right in EYES WIDE SHUT for new and used cars that have tons of info citing problems... and recalls.
But they want THAT particular car so they go forth. Then find out.
Having said all of that, I don't think tight craftsmanship and engineering when I think Ford. Especially at the used level where I purchase. And when he mentioned EV fire hazard that really got my attention.
EV's have many fewer parts so not as many production workers are needed. Until about 2026, Ford will import Chinese batteries.
^ as rule we are a gullible bunch
Ford borrowed $5.937 billion under the ATVM Loan Program. Ford still hasn’t paid that back.
- As of today, Ford has had a total of at least $33,489,841,570 [[$33.49 billion) in subsidies awarded.
So we give them and others billions of dollars,then offer $7500 to $12,000 in incentives in order to bribe people into buying their cars and what do we get in return?
Lost jobs and China gets the business.
“I want those jobs here in Michigan, not halfway around the globe,” Biden said when visiting a UAW job training center last month.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy...ctric-vehicles
How’s that working out for Michigan,your representative should be having a fit over the job loss that will only escalate,o wait she was to busy getting arrested for breaking the law instead of actually looking out for her constituents.
Because she could not be bother to protest without blocking the streets,I could have sworn recently there was a big hub bub about protesters blocking the streets where an entire country was stripped of their civil rights for doing the exact same thing and another governor called people Nazis for disrupting commence that cost billions,for doing the exact same thing.
Remember Ford already cut 580 back in April to offset Rivian losses.
They are cutting salary workers,engineers,marketing,development etc.
Which is at the higher end of the wage scale,which in turn lowers the average wage of a given region and they relocate to another state in order to find work.
China is happy though.
I think if I live long enough to buy an EV,I am going to skip the middle man,Ford and the American workers and just buy direct from China,it will probably be 1/2 the price anyways and their slave labor can use the money .
People are so desperate to save the planet,that they are not even saving in the process,that they are willing to throw their neighbors under the bus in that quest.
Not only willing to throw them under the bus,but send their paychecks to a country whose sole intent is to destroy our way of life.
News flash - China does not give a rats behind about your cause,so why bend over backwards to support theirs?
I wondered if batteries will become the entrance point of the Chinese auto industry into the US. I realize that some Buick engines, one model of a Buick and various auto parts already come from China. However, the actual sales of Chinese autos into the US market has been restrained. With Ford going electric and China providing Ford its batteries until about 2026, I wondered what percentage of an EV's cost was attributal to batteries. Google says 15%. Production costs are different than sales cost which includes profit, sales, front office costs and other things not related to actual production. "One year ago, the average lithium-ion battery pack cost between $147 and $153 per kilowatt hour to make, which accounts for around 30-40 percent of the total cost to produce an EV." So yes, Chinese batteries will constitute a huge portion of the sales of Chinese auto products in the US at least until other possible supplies of lithium or substitutes can be developed. In 2026, a Korean company will help Ford build batteries in the US. That will at least cut out some Chinese labor costs.
I am not opposed to EVs,technology has always moved this country forward,I am opposed to the way they are going about it,every time they do these social experiments there are generations that are lost in the wake.
You cannot change 150 years of advancement in the fossil fuel industry and all that surrounds it in 3 years or even 10 years without throwing millions into the ditch in the process .
What makes it even worse is they have already recognized that and have said,people need to suck it up and deal with it.
The ones saying that, it is not going to effect them or their families outside of beefed up stock portfolios.
Telling that family that is just trying to feed their kids to suck it up because you are saving the planet is little consolation,now their kids will go in with the possibility of not enough funds to get a better education.
So that is yet another generation lost in the process.
This all could have been phased in with minimal impact,it’s not going to kill the planet in the two years if that,that it would take for manufacturers to build their battery plants in this country.
The irony is in the rush to implement save the planet policies they are massively increasing the amount of pollution and looking the other way when it comes to the way the required minerals are mined,so in the process they are actually increasing exactly what they are trying to decrease.
Or speeding up the destruction to the planet in the process while increasing the human destruction on the personal level.
What are we trying to save and from whom?
But they have also admitted,it is not really about saving the planet and more about creating opportunities in advanced fields,but at what cost and the reality is those fields require a lower employment base then what they are replacing.
Ford did not build 20,000 model As then say,now I need a workforce to build them,he built a factory then installed a line for efficiency then hired and trained the workforce produce them.
Now it is the opposite,throw 20,000 EVs out there with no supporting infrastructure then worry about that after the fact and say it is critical you provide that after the fact,then on top of that,in order to fill that need,everything comes from somewhere else that benefits everybody else but the ones you are going to sell your product to.
Ford did not offer the $5 a day pay in order to attract employees,he did it só the employees could afford the product they were building which in turn increased sales and profits.
If you fire all of your workforce while importing all of your products,who is left to buy what you are selling?
Ok but it's not a one-time savings...it's a couple billion every 12 months, or roughly $20 billion over 10 years. Not insignificant.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeg19
Considering the size of their workforce it is only the start.
No mention of re-training the existing workforce in oder to fold them into EV production,so they have already calculated the size of the workforce required for the EV division.
The legacy cost is still there,I still think the big 2.5 are going to have a tough time competing in the future verses the newcomers who will be entering the market with a clean slate.
Separate division or not they are still going into it with a fixed cost that exceeds the start up costs of a new player.
I am not sure the region really comprehends what all of this is going to do long term when it is still so auto eccentric based.
It may be a bad case of be careful of what you wish for.
Can you really have 20 different models of an EV,even with GM they are not going to have to retain that line of brands,what is the difference between a Buick EV and an Oldsmobile EV,It’s just going to be a GM with a few variations,it will not be brand loyal Buick buyers because it is a Buick because there will be 50 different variations from the competition.
Once the basic EV platform is established,anybody can make a body to stick on it,just like back in the day when automobiles were first established.
It’s like the Wild West all over again but with EVs instead of horses.
That word "salaried" is sinking in. EV's have batteries and electric motors. The motors are much smaller and have fewer parts than ICE engines and there are no exhaust systems or transmissions. China is making Ford batteries for now so there will be a huge reduction in manufacturing jobs as EVs replace ICE engines. Many fewer salaried employees will be required to manage a sharply reduced manufacturing force and keep track of fewer components going forward. A lot of employees will have their pensions reduced or eliminated. This last item could explain much of the savings. Still, it seems like the massive layoff of salaried workers is too abrupt. It will be a decade before half of new cars sold will be EVs. Could Ford be anticipating an imminent bad recession? Other companies are not doing the same so that is probably not it.
That is where it becomes foggy with intent.
Lots of corporations have been having hiring freezes and layoffs across all sectors,Tesla laid off and has a hiring freeze,same with other tech companies,mortgage companies laying off thousands.
Starbucks closing low performing locations along with other major retailers,inventory levels are low because companies do not want to be stuck with warehouses full of stock,Wal-Mart is pausing their home delivery services and pick up services because they do not want to be stuck with the massive amount of warehouse storage that is required.
I am an uneducated idiot and even I saw what was coming 1 year ago and cashed out high dollar stuff in order to carry through,even borrowing in order to build a rental apartment in order to increase cash flow to offset losses.
Most people still spending like drunk sailors are doing so with credit cards and because of the drought food and energy costs are going to escalate in the fall early winter,food is going to be a big problem.
A lot of corporations are positioning themselves and shedding overhead,jobs,not for what is happening today but for what they anticipate will happen in 6 months.
At the current levels nothing is really stable long term or sustainable,once the COVID windfalls that cities and states are enjoying now work their way through the system,they are going to be in a pinch.
Where I am at and many other locals across the country even rents have increased from $1500 to $2500.
The feds have to raise interest rates in order to slow everything down so they can keep inflation somewhat in check,that increases the mortgage and cost of borrowing money by alot.
The only unknown is if we just crash or slowly slide into a recession,more so that we have already been in.
Ford could very well be using this as a way to shed the workforce under the guise of EV conversion.
Because we all know full well if there is a change of politics and federal funding for the EVs,it all comes crashing down.
GM already stated that without federal funding there is no 2030 goal,Manchin killed the policy that would have sent billions to the manufacturers in incentives and flat out grants.
That makes green dead for at least the next 2 years and possibly 6 depending on who takes the whitehouse in 2024.
We already saw that with solar and wind farms across the world,as soon as the winds of politics changes and governments stop the incentives,it all dies on the vine.
A lot of European countries are firing up their coal plants again,they are going to be more worried about heating homes and electricity today then green tomorrow because it is not there today to help them.
Most can care less about EVs of the future when they are struggling hand to mouth today,the layoffs are just another layer piled on top,it’s like a circle of chairs,most companies are positioning now so they make sure they still a seat when the dust settles verses increasing stock value.
Historically it’s time for that 10 year cycle for a recession,stash cash while you can,dump debt,those who do will come out the other side okay,those that do not will be hurting for many years after that,just like always.
And then you went on to write something to the effect of "it might not have been a thing in Detroit, and maybe it's not on google, but my uncle had one, so let me ridicule you for not having heard of it!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
The thread is there to read,I did not ridicule anybody,I made the post and others jumped in as usual saying the bumper stickers did not exist because they did not see them and could not find them in Google.Quote:
Originally Posted by detmsp
It could have very well have been a thing in Detroit and most posting was not paying attention,sense it hit Detroit the hardest one would figure people would more in tune with what was happening back then,this whole were old enough anyways.
"Sense" it makes no "since" to listen to your word salad Richard! How can educated people on this forum take you seriously, and agree that you are right, and we [who actually LIVE here] must all have been not paying attention back in the 1970s... :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
And besides your horrible use of punctuation and homonyms, now you're leaving out nouns and verbs in your above comments. Of course people will look at you with derision, when you denigrate others, but do so with incomplete grammar.
^ actually if you want to be technical about it all nobody “listens” to a post ,they “read” a post.
Let me guess,not only does Detroit have special gas stations that nobody else in the world does,it has newspapers in print that reads the news to you like a Siri out loud...
You keep mentioning logic,did they ever program you on how to apply it?
I hope you are not including yourself in that educated group because you constantly prove you have no interest in continuing your education,which is the very basics of an education.
Thats the difference,I do not claim to be somebody I am not.
Stellantis NV says it will be laying off an undisclosed number of employees at its Windsor and Brampton auto assembly plants in Ontario as part of a push for operational efficiencies in its transition to become a "mobility tech company."
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canad...b3f1b129329f5c
They are not disclosing how many,but these are hourly workers verses salary workers that Ford is laying off.
The Belvidere Auto Assembly Plant in Belvidere, Illinois, which had close to 5,000 workers in 2019, now has less than 1,500 and recently announced plans to eliminate more jobs in May, according to the Rockford Register Star.
This was Fords projections back in 2018
• Making a full commitment to new propulsion choices, including adding hybrid-electric powertrains to high-volume, profitable vehicles like the F-150, Mustang, Explorer, Escape and Bronco. The company’s battery electric vehicle rollout starts in 2020 with a performance utility, and it will bring 16 battery-electric vehicles to market by 2022.
https://media.ford.com/content/dam/f...financials.pdf
Depends how you read it - 16 vehicles by 2022 or 16 different models?
They have 4 ?
I thought that a Korean company was going to make Ford batteries in the US beginning in 2026 but...
"A giant Chinese supplier of electric vehicle batteries decided to push back announcing a multibillion-dollar North American plant to supply Tesla Inc. and Ford Motor Co. due to tensions raised by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s trip to Taiwan, according to people familiar with the matter.
Contemporary Amperex Technology Co. Ltd., the world’s biggest maker of batteries for electric vehicles, has been considering at least two locations in Mexico near the Texas border, as well as sites in the U.S., for the plant. China’s CATL has been in an advanced stage of site selection and negotiating incentives, in anticipation of announcing its selection in the coming weeks." - https://www.ttnews.com/articles/pelo...ry-plant-plans
I am not even minutely a fan of Pelosi,but she did what she needed to do,she had more cahonees to do what half of the other sniveling morons were to scared to do.
Screw the Chinese.
Ford can step back,take a deep breath and build its own battery factories on U.S. soil while employing U.S worker while building U.S built cars,if I wanted a Chinese car,I would order one from China at half the price that Ford can build one for.
Now that they have 8000 workers laying about,concrete is easy enough to pour and concrete blocks are easy enough to throw up.
You know a few years down the road it will be Ford idles factory’s and sidelines 10,000 workers due to a slowdown of Chinese built batteries.
I do not trust the Chinese,they will be hiding tracking devices or small explosive detonators in the batteries.
Wow... although it's spelled 'kahunas' [I had to look that one up], I actually agree with everything you said Richard... :rolleyes:
"I don't think he's young... I was around then, as was he... and I don't recall ever seeing one of those bumper stickers? Was that maybe a Florida thingy?'
He's full of crap. Decades of "Slug Bug" since the early 70s driving all over the Great Lakes region, never saw a bumper sticker that said that.
It's actually "cajones" or balls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
ya will have to give him a few days in order to recover from agreeing with me,before a response.Quote:
Originally Posted by jcole
Hah! If that Korean company is related to Kia [Hundai], I'd be checking their quality controls as Kia cars have many recalls and engine/ tranny problems.
Re. China anything, Ford et al best pump those brakes for sure! For sure this is not a good time for technology ventures with China considering that mumbly-peg Pelosi visit to Taiwan, yet the increasing showcase of our our weakness after the 'rubber' saber-rattling. Very little is useful for negotiations.
China holds the cards on so many levels - still yet to be revealed. All they have to do for example is pull their medical supplies and much of our healthcare system is disrupted. We DON'T need their production of batteries too!
Quote:
Originally Posted by oladub
this is a well done netflix documentary...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zacha341
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m36QeKOJ2Fc
a true enlightenment on clash of cultures
american factory @ netflix
^ Looks compelling... there's little keeping me paying my Netflix streaming now.
To our problems in US car manufacturing, YES we can absolutely do better. And that needs to be priority over other the work-related 'stuffings'. As a Toyota car enthusiast I have experienced great quality from some of their older models per their Kaizen work ethic:
Kaizen: a compound of two Japanese words that together translate as "good change" or "improvement." However, Kaizen has come to mean "continuous improvement" through its association with lean methodology and principles. Kaizen has its origins in post-World War II Japanese quality circles.
https://www.techtarget.com/searcherp...lity%20circles.
Zacha, I expanded on the 8,000 jobs lost in another thread since taken down that had a focus on a bill purporting to reduce inflation. Although 2/3 of my reply had to do with how it related to Detroit's auto industry, I will have to try to reframe my response to fit here and be about Detroit without answering your question about how it will affect me.
Subsidies found in the "Inflation Reduction Act" to Big Three Auto companies that sell EVs should be helpful to Detroit. "To address climate change, the bill includes $10 billion in tax credits to build electric vehicles, solar panels and wind turbines; $7,500 tax credit rebates for consumers to buy electric vehicles." Some of those vehicles will be built in SE Michigan. There is "another $2 billion in grants to “retool” existing car factories for electric vehicles." All these corporate subsidies and Ford will probably still get rid of 8,000 workers.
Chinese and Korean EV battery producers, SE Asian solar panel producers, and probably foreign EV makers will also be among the primary beneficiaries of this bill. President Biden eliminated some tariffs on Chinese goods and SE Asian solar panels to fight inflation. Ford Motors is letting go of 8,000 workers to help pay for its transition to EV production using Chinese or Korean batteries. Here is a Vietnamese company planning to build EVs with federal subsidies here [S. Carolina, not Detroit]. So in addition to Ford letting go so many employees, I see nothing stopping foreign companies coming to the US to compete with Ford and GM for subsidies and market share without big-3 legacy costs.
^ Indeed. Threads come and go. The point remaining is that Detroiters do best - head-on-a-swivel, ever-watchful - when we carefully assess policy. Period.
Including that which purports to be expedient and helpful. The devil will be in the details [as to how Detroiter's ACTUALLY benefit long term] - going forward.
Ford announced today that they are again taking orders for the F-150 Lightning EV, with a price increase of $4,200-$8,900 [[base model up $7K).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh_WFSWNrHQ
^HAH. Forget about it. Who really needs any personal-use cars/ trucks [0:38] EV or ICE!? Or even big-foot homes.
Let's get the Line City started here ASAP!
FWIW, Eric Starkman is reporting Jim Farley himself leaked this story to Bloomberg.
https://starkmanapproved.com/the-bel...-woke-gannett/
Granted opinion ^ but if you follow his links
What’s clear is that the conversion to electric vehicles is going to mean a major loss of American jobs. As reported by Codrin Spiridon in the trade publication AutoEvolution, more than 600,000 manufacturing jobs will likely be lost by 2030 because of the accelerated conversion to electric vehicles.
This all reminds me of what happened to the steel industry in this country,the feds gave the steel companies billions in order to reinvest and re-tool in order to compete in order to save jobs.
The steel companies reinvested those monies in moving off shore and then shut the factories down.
Out of all of these billions,show me one politician that has pressed for at least $50 in re-training programs for the estimated 600,000 job losses.
Boss man said they can go build solar panels,who wants to move to China?
Two things build solar panels,robots and slave labor.
Betcha those same politicians in 2030 will be advocating for billions in section 8 in order to feed and house those who they have thrown into the street,who exactly are they saving the planet from ?
We are entering into the realm of 50 year home mortgages and 15 year auto loans all designed to keep the average citizen in debt from cradle to grave.
Not for nothing but Walt Disneys EPCOT original city concept was that,before it became convoluted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zacha341
That was back in the 1960s.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9hqLo4J6mrQ
Based on the anecdotal comments I'm reading on The Layoff, tomorrow and the rest of this upcoming week is D-Day for Ford workers.
Looks like it will be more like 3,000
Ford tells employees it will cut 3,000 jobs | Crain's Detroit Business [[crainsdetroit.com)
Quote:
Ford Motor Co. plans to eliminate 3,000 jobs globally this week, according to a letter sent to employees Monday and obtained by Automotive News.
The automaker is cutting 2,000 salaried positions and 1,000 agency jobs, CEO Jim Farley and Executive Chair Bill Ford said. Affected employees in the U.S., Canada and India will be informed this week, the letter said. A Ford spokesman confirmed the letter as authentic.
You're right. As of now, they're slashing field jobs. So far 2000 cuts today.Quote:
Originally Posted by 313WX
Hopefully they will get enough of a severance pay in order to buy a flight to China so they can build solar panels,like da boss man said they can do.
But then again in the bigger picture they are just collateral damage,what’s a few lives when it comes to saving the planet ?
Note that it says 3,000 for just this week.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonWylie
There may be one or more waves of cuts in the coming months.
Getting rid of the "dead-weight" or aka the professional coffee drinkers can be uplifting for both involved parties. . . ...welcome to the MC!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smirnoff
Just like in that movie 9-5, or one of those TV sitcoms, eh?
Fords counter is they are adding workers on the EV side so the loss balances out,even though it is well known that fewer workers will be needed on the EV side.
If they are investing in the future,how come they could not retrain the existing workers?
They keep saying that they are doing this in order to compete with Tesla,can they really ever compete with a start up that does not have the legacy costs that Ford will always have?
It’s just basic economics,it cost Ford X amount to build a vehicle before even they build it.
I also wonder how the recent $1.6 billion lawsuit comes into play,that has to hurt.
What is the labor force structural difference needed in EV production verses ICE ?
The future looks like one would only need a few design engineers with a laptop and some technical support on the assembly line in order to fix the robotic assembly line.
Teslas design is bolting pre built components together,in theory Ford could just have component manufacturers and only need a line to attach the components together.
With Tesla you do not change a dented fender,you change that whole module that the fender is attached to.
They are doing the same thing in the ship building industry,assembling modular components in order to create a ship,what used to take a crew of 15,000 now takes less then 1500.
It looks like with EVs it is more about the technology aspect verses the assembly line of mass production of the past,you do not need the workers anymore,just the coffee drinkers.
64% of the population is working,44% of those are working in unskilled positions,the way this is all heading,we are going to end up with 20% of the working population supporting the rest of the non working population.
We are doing things because we can,but is that really the best way ?
Good catchQuote:
Originally Posted by 313WX
MBA playbook; complacent rule 101. . . ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Honky Tonk
I was hired by Ford in 2000. The first mass firing of 5,000 salaried employees was announced in 2001, a few months prior to 9/11. If they had waited a few months they could have blamed everything on 9/11.
They have been cutting staff every few years since then, so you can be certain there will be more cuts.
I think Ford's in worse shape than claimed. I travel in the south notice and note few Fords driven for example in Georgia. Sure we see plenty up here in as captive-audience Michigan, but elsewhere how are they doing?
Sure, some of their vehicles are ok and others are legend. But systemic disasters such as those 150 Trident 3 value-engines was just brain-dead sustained poor engineering. Like can you make a strong engine or not? I have a friend with a Ford Focus she's kept too long, now going down hill faster than it should... or those tickity-tak-tak 3-cyl jobs they played with a few years back.
I did I love my Escort decades ago. It was a tank for sure!
Honda, Hyundai and Toyota plants are mostly in the South, Alabama and Tennessee in particular, so it's not a big surprise that the people who work in those plants buy those cars.
^ Yeah. I thought about that yet I saw Chevy's and Dodges enough.
Work chum just got his F-150 3-valve fixed, cam phasers went bad, only $7k to fix, only.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zacha341
I think it depends on where one is at,there are not many major employers in the south like the north was,so lots of independent small businesses that use trucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zacha341
Hispanics have gravitated from Toyotas and Hondas to Kia and Hyundai,aggressive pricing and easy financing.
In Tennessee and Alabama when the factories established there you could buy 10-20 acres with a mobile home for under $50,000 rural,so factory workers there drive fuel efficient vehicles for their back n forth work car,you can bet they have their Ford,Dodge,Chevrolet truck waiting for them at home.
In Fla HOAs frown on trucks and some flat out ban them unless they can be parked in the garage and out of site.
Anywhere near the south and within 50 miles of the coast,most will have boats which requires a truck to bring the boat to the water.
There is no shortage of truck sales in the south,Ford rules followed by Chevrolet then Dodge.
My 97 Ford/Jaguar was originally designed to have a V8,it was not ready for the 95-97 MY,they came out with it for the 1998 but it took them until 2001 to build one that lasted more then 20,000 miles before imploding.
Like was mentioned,the dealer repair costs are border line insanity,out of warranty I do not see a large percentage of the truck owners being able to afford the repair costs that will come with these trucks as they age,but it is not uncommon to be seeing them with over 200k and still going strong which is a far cry from the old days where when an American built vehicle hit 100k it was worn out.
I have a 2020 F250 SD that is used in a hauling business and is averaging over 50,000 miles per year,I have personally driven it probably 3 times at best,but it was impressive.
I used it to pick up a vintage car on a trailer and was keeping up with traffic on the highway,looked down and was going 95 but it felt like going 50 mph,did not even feel the trailer behind it.
But it is governed at 97 mph.