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Biden waiving ethanol rule in bid to lower gasoline prices...
https://apnews.com/article/biden-bus...f4813334aeae64
We will not be putting this in our cars [which thankfully take the lower priced 87 octane gasoline].
Will this small 'savings' not rise grain and other prices related to corn, corn feed, etc. How's about risking your car engine?
That could end up quite expensive!
My last vehicle ran on regular gasoline and E85 Ethanol. COOL! I can save $.27 a gallon! It didn't work that way. Turns out Ethanol isn't as combustible as gasoline, so as I saved at the pump my mileage went. Savings were null. Also, if your vehicle isn't designed to run on higher amounts of Ethanol, you could end up with mechanical problems down the road.
If your car was built in the last 20 years then it's certified to run E15. I won't be burning it because there's like 12 stations in the state that sell it. Meanwhile, you've all been burning E10 for a decade, so what's another 5%?
What a Summer Blend a corn fuel.
Yeah. I've heard it runs a bit 'watery' in regards to performance and mileage. I don't own race-fast-cars, but I'll stick with the gas I already use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Honky Tonk
One of our cars is exactly 20 years old in great shape @ over 200K [a Toyota].
I doubt this is rare in this city [older cars], and economy, increasingly.
I'm not takin' a chance to save a small fraction, relative to expensive and avoidable engine problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM
Say what? Which?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny
I vaguely recall someone advising {for old cars, lawn mowers, snowblowers, etc.} to buy gas at a marina. Boat engines typically don't handle ethanol well. It had something to do with ethanol dissolving plastic parts over time.
I have no idea whether that's true. Can anyone confirm that?
All this will do is create havoc for those with gas powered boats, lawnmowers, chain saws, etc. The high ethanol content on the fuel destroys gaskets, seals and rubber hoses especially in equipment that sits for long periods. It's also less stable than regular gasoline so it can't be stored as long as it will separate and can lead to all sorts of issues, even in cars that are made to run it.
^ I sure wouldn't run it in some older BMW or Mercedes models with all their plastics. The rodents have a grand time as it is when they sit too long.
RE: marina
In older small engines [[boats, mowers, chain saws, weed wackers and more) ethanol causes quick plastic deterioration and/or carburetor issues.
In Northerm MI, most stations sell something called REC GAS [[instead of premium), which is quite expensive. In most instances, REC does not include ethanol [[some do). Snowmobilers use REC.
The box stores also sell non-ethanol gas in a quart can. More expensive than REC at the pump.
There are stations all over the state that use Rec Gas; just do a search. I know for a fact there is one in Warren on 10 Mile and Ryan. There is another at Metro and Jefferson. Don't even try to get it at a marina unless you pull your boat up to the dock. In that case, there are several in SCS in the million dollar strip. My SIL's generator, which is loaned us for several days last summer, prefers Rec Gas. Quite a bit of it sold down river.
Using a food source as fuel is a terrible idea. I'm 90% sure this is trying to prop up the corn industry as fewer companies are using corn syrup as a sweetener. If the price of corn goes down, you grow something different.
As for if I'll be using it, definitely not. I drive a plug-in hybrid, and I use so little gas I end up using the ICE just to burn off the old gas every couple of months. The high-ethanol gas decomposes much faster than the low-ethanol gas. My wife's car is a diesel truck, so again, definitely not.
Will not be using it.
It increases oil consumption [as it takes slightly more than a gallon of petroleum to make a gallon of ethanol, and then your car gets about 5% less mileage with ethanol blend].
It also increases smog, especially when it's warm out, which is why many states ban it's use in Summer.
Also, we further strip the nutrients out of the soil growing all the extra crops.
And we use up huge amounts of potable water to irrigate the corn crops.
It's bad for older cars and power equipment.
And increases cost.
So it
- increases the demand for oil,
- increases pollution,
- is bad for the soil
- increases the use of fresh water
- and is bad for cars that aren't flex fuel.
- And makes gas more expensive.
So in typical Pres Biden fashion, he creates a problem, then makes it even worse with one of his 'solutions'.
Of course it wasn't a problem when Donald Trump pumped it to buy votes, lol!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket
And it wasn't a problem when President Bush enacted the ethanol mandate in the first place.
And it won't be a problem now, since you can't really buy it around here.
Yeah, they sell quite a bit of it in Iowa, home of corn.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM
What a load of silliness. You've been using it for years. You just don't know and won't know. There are very few places you can get gas without it.
Yes, it can damage older yard equipment and some foreign made replacement parts, but generally only after extended storage ... leaving it in the fuel system over the winter for example. Recommendations are to run them dry of all fuel.
It does not cause harm to motor vehicle engines which have been designed for it for many years.
Y'all need to turn Murdoch's propaganda channel off.
I certainly didn't say that. Didn't even infer it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM
It's always been corrupt. The system forces it.
The extra icing on the cake this time is that the Pres had the nerve to say it will LOWER gas prices. He actually said that, on national tv! LOL
[Anything to mask the 8.5% inflation number that came out yesterday. At this rate we'll hit 13.5 by December.]
Yeah-ahh. You don't have to be a GOP Trump-a-votin' devotee to acknowledge this pattern!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket
What do we need. To grow more corn for gasoline, to try to keep prices down? Or to grow more corn to feed poorer countries around the world who are seeing fertilizer prices 'skyrocket', who may desperately need the calories in their diets?Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddle
Hint, if you need it.... one of these two things is being enacted explicitly to minimize gas price increases.
Funny you brought that up. I know someone who went through hell and back with that problem on his Toyota. It didn’t have to sit long either, it would happen overnight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zacha341
https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-...s-can-proceed/
President Biden, in his own words, announcing the summer production of more ethanol to save money at the pump.
+
The War in Ukraine Is Creating the Greatest Global Food Crisis
Since WWII, the U.N says
=
If you burn ethanol, there will be less food this fall.
You don't typically eat the type of corn you use in ethanol, at least not directly.Quote:
Originally Posted by oladub
Quote:
Originally Posted by oladub
So besides increasing smog, he's gonna cause fuel prices to rise AND food prices too?
Wow, this president sure does care about the poor doesn't he?
True, field corn is what hogs, cattle and chicken eat. We eat field corn indirectly. On the plus side, the mash leftover after removing the ethanol can be fed to livestock although its nutrient value has been depletedQuote:
Originally Posted by JonWylie
Sweet corn and field corn, what are the differences?
"Ukraine is a major exporter of both wheat and corn, accounting for 12% and 17% of global supply, respectively. And Russia's wheat exports account for almost 17% of global supply, Insider's Urooba Jamal notes. Since Russia invaded Ukraine on February 24, food prices have started to soar." Ukraine is also the world' largest exporter of sunflower oil.
My advice, dear readers, is to buy a little extra pasta and a couple of extra bottles of vegetable oil: not to hoard but to buy what you will use until next Spring ahead of time. Rice is a good substitute too.
I've read a large number of comments about how white people care more about Ukrainians than Yemenis, Somalians, Eritreans, Sudanese, and other non-Europeans who too have wars. That may be true but when grain gets scarce and prices skyrocket, we first-worlders will just have to dig deeper into our wallets and not buy something else but those poorest of third world countries will starve. It would not be surprising if the number who starve because of this war will outnumber the number of Ukrainians and Russians who die in the war.
Ethanol from feed corn was a bad subsidized idea from the start. Hopefully at these fuel prices the subsidies will be less. I doubt it tho, Republicans like to give money away to farmers and Democrats will deal on those to get their own giveaways. At least the 30 Billion Trump gave away to soy bean farmers should have those guys properly funded to grow a lot of food this season to help out with food shortages.
It is hard to determine which party is just dumb or dumber these days for fiscal conservatives. Biden sure is barreling thru the cash but can he double what Trump spent in money we don’t have? That’s a tall order. Trumps deficit of 8+ Trillion in 4 years [almost exactly the same as Obama raised the deficit in 8 years] sets a really high bar of spending money we don’t have.
Lets not forget that Tariffs and runaway high deficit spending are directly linked to inflation in any Economics 101 textbook but of course that would mean that both parties have contributed to some of the inflation and that could mess with the ‘my political team I cheer for is perfect and the other is evil’ useless problem solving process. Many would never use logic instead of hate. Hate is so emotional and logic well, isn’t emotional. It would require analytical thought on all the factors contributing to how this inflation is charging as opposed to a predetermined villian to blame.
I agree that Trump spent too much. He averaged $1.2T/year for three years and spent $4.2T in 2020 to deal with Covid and its resulting recession. Congress passed all this spending too and I don't remember any Democrats who opposed all this spending. Biden and Congress even added $.5T to the 2021 budget Trump and Congress passed. However, even without Covid spending, if Trump kept averaging $1.2T of debt x8 years, his debt would have been greater than Obama's. Maybe we agree that some other Republican or Democrat:D who could cut $1-3T of debt out of the annual budget is needed.
Back to ethanol. We have had ethanol subsidies since 2005. The Atlantic had an article putting part of the blame for Putin's war on ethanol.
The U.S. Subsidy That Empowers Putin Ending America’s foolish subsidies for ethanol could aid Ukraine.
"Demand from the ethanol industry, in turn, bids up the price of corn, and the income of those who farm it. "Postcommunist Russia has emerged as the world’s largest exporter of wheat. If Putin can absorb Ukraine—also an important wheat producer—the enlarged Russian empire would provide almost one-third of the world’s wheat exports. Russia has become so dominant in wheat markets in great part because America has retreated from them. U.S. wheat production was about one-thirdlower in 2018 than at its peak in the early 1980s. Wheat has yielded to corn. Almost 70 percent of all U.S. grain production is now corn, up from 47 percent in the late 1960s. And of that immense crop of corn, almost half is formulated into ethanol to drive cars and trucks."
They are pushing E85 - or Flex fuel most likely because they are realizing that they cannot just flip to EVs.
Corn subsidies actually was the brain child of a man called Earl Burtz who was the agricultural commissioner under Nixon in the 70s,his view was farmers needed to go big or go away and large industrial farming was the only way to go.
Corn loses $1 per bushel sold and in order to control food prices they thought it was better that the government controls the price instead of the free market.
Corporations said they were not going to sell corn at a loss and sense they were going to have control over the market the government said,okay we will subside it,then the small farmers took the heat over it and still continue to do so today.
People have a strange way of viewing things,the government is not subsidizing the evil farmers,they are subsidizing our food supply.
One way or another the farmers are not going to sell for a loss,so either pay more for corn based products,which includes a lot of what we eat,or it gets subsidized.
If you are looking to blame somebody go back to Nixon and the push to remove the farmers from the equation.
I am sure the farmers would rather be able to sell their crops at market value verses a set price that is determined by the government.
Sense the government already controls the corn,who do you think then controls the gasoline market if the goal is E85 where only 15% is fossil fuel,it’s not a democrat or republicans thing,it’s a socialist thing where the government controls the market.
The first thing Chavez did was undercut the farmers and sold products at market cheaper then they could produce it,after they were pushed out he then controlled the food supply,next he Nationalized the fuel production and set the price.
Remember back in the 70s and the Chevrolet Vega,they used a aluminum head on a cast iron block and many blamed the use of ethanol in the gasoline,which is highly corrosive,as the reason for the massive failures in the head gaskets.
That 70% of corn production is dominated by corporate farms.
The irony in all of that is,you cannot use ethanol based fossil fuels in the production of fertilizer,which drives the cost of corn production,so while you are cutting back on the use of fossil fuel in vehicles,you are increasing the cost of either at the pump or in food.
We will not even go into the environmental impact of the refining process in order to make the E85 in the first place,which makes it a zero sum game.
All of this saving the planet seems to be more about making it look good in order to appease,verses actually saving the planet.
Grain alcohol in fuel has a way of absorbing water. Which causes “phase separation” in your tank and tanks at the gas stations.
A good doc on King Corn…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWv29KRsQXU
That separation is real. I had a van that suddenly had no power to make it up a hill. After getting a running start I made up the hill and made it home. I siphoned some gas out of the tank and put in the freezer. The next day there were two distinct liquids that separated out, one was the color of gas, the other was a white opaque liquid. The opaque liquid was heavier than the gas and the ratio was 50/50. I took this bottle to the gas station owner, he looks at it then shakes it up. He did pay for the tank to be drained and for the amount of money I spent to fill up at his station the day before.
I’m guessing the underground tank was pretty low on fuel…
Are you using E15 now? No, because you can't buy it here. So will you be using it this summer when the seasonal ban is lifted? No, because you can't buy it around here. So what's the big deal?
^
THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN ENACT:Sec. 277. [[1) For tax years beginning on and after January 1, 2023 through December 31, 2027, a taxpayer who is a retail dealer may claim a credit against the tax imposed by this part equal to the sum of the following:
[[a) $0.05 per gallon of E15 fuel that the retail dealer sells and dispenses through metered pumps at the retail dealer's motor fuel site during the tax year.
[[b) $0.085 per gallon of E85 fuel that the retail dealer sells and dispenses through metered pumps at the retail dealer's motor fuel site during the tax year.
[[2) For a taxpayer who is a member of a flow-through entity that qualifies for the credit under this section, that taxpayer may claim a credit against the member's tax liability under this part based on the member's distributive share of business income reported from that flow-through entity or an alternative method approved by the department.
[[3) If the credit allowed under this section for the tax year exceeds the tax liability of the taxpayer for the tax year, that portion of the credit that exceeds the tax liability shall be refunded.
[[4) As used in this section:
[[a) "E15 fuel" means gasoline blended with more than 10% of ethanol but not more than 15% of ethanol by volume.
[[b) "E85 fuel" means a high-level ethanol-gasoline blend containing more than 50% of ethanol but not more than 83% of ethanol by volume and that is suitable for use in flexible fuel vehicles.
https://www.legislature.mi.gov/[[S[[ckm1mwzamel224lciohdxzyc))/documents/2021-2022/billintroduced/Senate/htm/2022-SIB-0814.htm
You will be buying it because the ones selling it will get a tax credit for every gallon sold,so they have incentive to sell it.
But you won't because A) most stations don't have the infrastructure to deliver it. Of course you don't know that since you live in Russia and have never visited Detroit, and B) you don't have to stick the E15 pump in your tank.
Fun facts
Btus per gallon
Ethanol 76,330 BTU / Gallon
Conventional gasoline 116,090 BTU / Gallon
76,330/116,090=0.6575
A 33% difference
Will or does the price reflect that?
Does miles per gallon reflect that....
Mileage does. A car's mpg keeps dropping with each added bit of ethanol. My daily driver's mileage drops 1 mpg with E10.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Wesson
Same 1 mpg drop between Summer and Winter gas.
Summer E-0 to Winter E10 is a 2 mpg swing [in a 17 mpg SUV].
If you can't buy straight gas locally, you can remove the ethanol using a large jug, water and food dye.
You need to do this if you ever plan to store a car for months.
In the Fall, I drive the other car to 1/4 tank or less, add 5 gallons of 93 that I've removed the ethanol from, and add a splash of Stabil.
It's a lot of hassle. And all that just so we can increase our dependence on oil, hurt the environment, and make gas more expensive. It hardly seems worth it.
Most stations do not have the infrastructure to deliver E15 ?Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM
You went out of your way to pathetically try and make me look bad,then you post a statement like that?
You apparently never visited reality.
2011 EPA provided a waiver to sell E15 for vehicles 2001 and up,if you actually read what I posted Michigan is passing the service rebate beginning 2023 so gas stations receive a tax credit for every gallon sold,they can sell that tax credit for cash to other businesses that need the credits.
If you are a gas station,what are you going to sell,gas that gives you cash back in your pocket over and above what the consumer is paying you or keep E10 for the small percentage of the population that actually still drives a 2001 model year or less?
The way you respond,my guess as a business,you would retain the E10 capabilities for the small amount of customers left that are still driving 20 plus year old cars.
The whole object of being in business is to make profit,nobody is going to throw free money away that you will be receiving for a product that you are selling anyways.
I know it may be a mental stretch for you to comprehend the only thing they need for infrastructure is to drain the current E10 tanks and fill them up with E15 and change the little stickers on the pumps.
But sense you live in Detroit maybe you can tell us how special it is to have the only gas stations in existence that nobody else in the entire world has.
I do not need live in Detroit to comprehend they have gas stations that currently pump gasoline No different then any other gas station in the world.
But sense I do not live in Detroit I will be waiting for you to explain to me that Detroit is the only city in the world with their own little special gas pumps.
That has to be the most lame brain statement in the world
You do not live in Detroit so you do not know.
Maybe you should get out some and visit other cities in the country,nothing in Detroit is no different then any other city,it’s not some city where it is a bubble within its self.
Hate to break it to you.
According to you I will not be able to visit Detroit anyways because sense you have your own little special gas pumps that nobody else in the world has,I would not be able to purchase fuel for my Florida car.
I would have to rent a special Detroit car that only uses special Detroit gas stations and not even be able to visit anything outside of the city unless I fill up in the city first and do not go outside of the range of the rental,because nobody else will have those special little gas pumps.
I was thinking,Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Won't they just be replacing our E-10 with E-15, and then putting an E-15 sticker on the fuel-grade button?
I don't think we're gonna have a choice to use or not use E-15.
Perhaps not all stations will choose to. Or will they even have a choice?
I think that was the whole reason they are offering the tax credits to the service stations,because the service stations will steer people to what they will make profit in which will be E15.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket
Next they will do the same thing with E85,they will stop selling premium and use that tank for the E85,E85 is for flex fuel cars,they already know they cannot meet the EV deadline so it will be EVs and flex fuel hybrid cars as a majority.
Remember when California had their cash for clunkers program way back when,they did that to remove the older vehicles from the road and incentivize people to buy new cars that met emission standards at that time.
I think it will be like it now as availability,some stations sell low,mid grade,premium and high test in that case it will most likely be mid grade,E15,E85.
Because they will not have to add more tanks or change pumps out,just do the switch over when the existing tanks runs dry.
For us WaWA is the only station that sells straight gas outside of a marina and not every one,but Florida has a massive boating base so it may be profitable to them whereas elsewhere maybe not.
Right now it is $4.85 per gallon which is the same as I pay for high test.
I think that is the long term goal in all of this,just make it so expensive to own a ICE vehicle that people will not have a choice but to switch.
The only outlier in all of that is E gas attacks rubber hoses,most hoses sold anymore are rated for E gas.
But are they rated at the 10% level and not at 15% ? I do not know that one.
But what caused the service station superfunds was a 90 degree hose that went at the bottom of the service station in ground tanks,what happened was they deteriorated and allowed the fuel to soak into the water tables.
It cost billions to clean all of that up,now here we are 30 years later and the elephant in the room is was those 90s replaced with E rated rubber because if they were not and the switch is made to E15 - E85 which will increase the risk,we may now be in the early stages of the next environmental disaster that will cost billions more and wipe out a majority of the existing gas stations like it did back in the 70s.
In the 70s I could still buy 105 octane to run in my 60s GTO,now you cannot find it outside of a random Sunoco who caters to the race crowd.
I think the rest will go the same way,they will just phase it out.
But they are still building new performance vehicles that require premium fuel in 2022,can’t imagine running a hellcat or new corvette on low grade fuel,unless they can.
The irony of E15 is while you save a few cents per gallon at the pump you will be making up for it in dollars at the grocery store because the cost of fertilizer has tripled in the process and the demand for corn will grow which increases the need for fertilizer.
Which is Round Up brand,so once again in order to drive costs down and save the planet we are going to triple the use of toxic products that will be dumped into the environment at a faster pace.
So we are right back to killing the planet at a faster rate,in order to save it.
It just makes no sense the way they are going about it,while wasting billions in taxpayer dollars and increased costs on those who can least afford it,even making those who currently can,less likely to be able to in the future.
Corn is used to make sucrose,which is used in just about every food product we consume so E15 is really a zero sum game,well,actually will drive up costs at the supermarket.
Here is a link that explains a lot,and says that existing gas station infrastructure is currently rated up to E100.
https://afdc.energy.gov/files/u/publication/e15_infrastructure.pdf
But that is only stations that have switched their tanks out mid 80s and up and mostly not in aged urban centers because there are still thousands of operating gas stations that have not changed their tanks out because the superfund ran out of money.
When you see older gas stations that have a little square fenced in building in the back or on the side and has a vent sticking out of the top,that unit has a pipe sunk into the ground and is sucking the gasoline vapors out of the soil because their tanks are leaking fuel into the soil.
They are also monitoring the fuel flow through the water table,Detroit it will naturally flow to the river,that is how they determine if the leaking tanks are a hazard to the public and if the station needs to be immediately shut down,is by the flow of gasoline in the water table plume.
Us older folk will remember when there used to be a filter on the side of the gas pumps,that was to filter the sand out of the gas as it was sucked up through the leaking rubber 90s.
Thats why you never ever rent or buy an X service station without checking with the city and EPA and find out if and when the tanks were removed and if the soil is contaminated otherwise at any given second they can shut you down a force you to clean it up,that’s over $100,000 minimum if you own it and if you rent it,you need to move with no notice.
I buy recreational gas REC-90 for every gas burning tool I use.
I was unaware of the intentional separating of E-fuels.
REC-90 is ethanol free. 2oz of Stabil per 5 gallon jug every refill.
Mich gov website on the thing about ethanol and water
https://www.michigan.gov/mdard/lab/m...etail-guidance
Even worse up north with the seasons but I wonder how many millions consumers spend every year replacing equipment that sat up for the winter and did not start in the spring,so they just bought a new one.
Its a scam of sorts because of the use of tax credits.
So how they work is larger pollution generating corporations are fined every year according to how much pollution they emit over and above current EPA set guidelines.
They can either pay the fine,millions for some,or use tax credits purchased from other businesses to pay the fine.
In this case a gas station has a low pollution footprint,but with the tax credits received for every gallon sold there is no way they can use them all,so they can then sell them on the market.
So for every dollar collected as a tax credit you can sell it for a percentage on the dollar.
I think what they are doing here with the E15 and tax credits is using it simply as a tool in order to generate millions more credits for purchase for other higher pollution generating companies.
IE: A refinery generates more pollution then the regulations allow,so they have to pay a fine.
If you then use the individual gas station and give them tax credits that they will never be able to take advantage of ,they will pump millions in credits back into the refinery.
What it appears like they are doing is trying to up the output of the refineries,which in return will double the pollution levels over and above the limits,while offsetting the fines with the actual gas stations tax credits.
How it can backfire is the gas stations are not required to sell the credits to the refineries,they can sell them to the highest bidder.
If that happens the refineries will have to increase the cost of fuel delivered in order to correlate with the increased fines that will come with increased production demand.
So it is not really about E15,it’s about using E15 as a tool in order to generate tax credits on a massive scale,for other businesses that will not be able to comply with new EPA regulations.
The 1958 Ford Nucleon: An idea that’s still ahead of its time
The Ford Nucleon was envisioned to be powered by a miniaturized version of a nuclear reactor of the sort found in a submarine and would go as far as 10,000 miles between refueling. The original concept model is currently on display at the Henry Ford Museum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CassTechGrad
Of course everyone's first thought is, "What happens in a crash?"
Probably a lot safer to have the reactor in the garage, and use it to charge the car at night.
Of course that still leaves the problem of making batteries, which we still have no way to do on a large scale, and the minerals needed to produce them can't be mined fast enough, and probably don't exist in even a fraction of the quantity needed.
Gasoline is the way to go for the foreseeable future. Perhaps in 50 years someone will have developed a solution.
FOR SURE ethanol isn't it. It INCREASES petroleum use and instead of reducing it.
Based on what evidence? There's plenty of improvements happening every year that make batteries more efficient and easier to recycleQuote:
Originally Posted by Rocket
Well, currently, less than 1% of cars and trucks on the road are electric. And only about 3% or less of new car sales are electrics, which means we need to multiply battery production by 33 times [50x or more if we're going to do heavy trucks too]. And we need to achieve that rate of production not just this year, but EVERY year, forever.Quote:
Originally Posted by JonWylie
The industry simply has no clue how they might do that. For one thing, there is a very limited amount of certain minerals needed to make the batteries, like cobalt, manganese, lithium carbonate, lithium hydroxide, etc, etc.
The USA has less than 2% of the world's lithium production. Almost all of it is controlled by China.
I just read that Lithium prices have risen 438% in the last year, so elec car companies are about to institute some very noticeable price hikes.
The elec car industry, government, media etc keep saying how we need a new breakthrough technology to do this and that, but so far nothing has come close to lithium-ion for the needed mix of energy density, lifespan, charge/discharge rate, etc.
So yeah, perhaps electric is the future, but so far, no one has even the faintest clue how they're going to pull it off.
Mostly about the tragedy of lead, but at 7:32 ethanol's effect on knocking is mentioned:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV3dnLzthDA
The Man Who Accidentally Killed The Most People In History
Quote:
One scientist caused two environmental disasters and the deaths of millions....
It does do that, but it also is less energy dense, meaning when you use it in a gas car, it effectively leans out the mixture, which promotes knock again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimaz
Modern cars have both knock and oxygen sensors, so their ECU's can mostly account for this. The net effect is just a loss of fuel economy.
What does hugely improve octane is injecting methanol. It's 113 octane or better, and has a cooling effect.
The title to that vid reminds me of Rachel Carson, the lady who wrote the book Silent Spring, about how DDT was terrible.
Turns out her science was junk, and her conclusions false. DDT is now used again. But in the meantime, many millions of people died in Africa, South America etc of malaria, thanks to DDT being banned. That puts Rachel well above Hitler, and near Stalin and Mao on the all-time death count list.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/us-jo...xt-space-state
The UP would probably be as NIMBY about Disney
World as it is about a Space Port. Here's hoping
that the Florida state government values both its
theme parks and space ports. The weather there
is nice for both of those. The New Yorker references
Nancy Langston. Her books are book club fare in the
UP.
http://www.nancylangston.net/
Methanol as a fuel additive may improve octane
but tends to increase nitrogen oxide emissions.
DDT is something of a "forever chemical".
Its use, if at all, should be carefully balanced
against its projected environmental and health
effects for populations that have close contact
with the environments that it would be put into.
It says something that a researcher investigating
DDT in Africa mentions that there is an ongoing
shift to the use of neonicotinoids instead of DDT.
Those have their hazards as well - they are
implicated in the decline of pollinator populations.
https://www.un.org/africarenewal/mag...vironmentalist
"There's a sucker born every minute" P. T. Barnum
Attachment 42052
What ever happened to "Palcohol" anyway?
Most of those rockets they are sending up are carrying satellites that provide GPS that the EVs,aircraft needs,It actually may be good for the state in the diversity aspect,hundreds of millions flowing through the state cannot be that bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dumpling
The rocket launches at the cape have little impact on anything else.
Screw Reedy Creek and Disney,it is the only private business in the United States that operates as an independent government within itself.
They brought in foreign IT workers at a cheaper rate,made the existing IT people train them,then they fired them.
When they first started buying property to build it,there was a community of about 60 homes,Disney had the bank call the note on all of those property owners and they were kicked out of their homes without compensation,the remains of those homes are still on the property.
They can do or build whatever they want in their property with zero permits or regulations,you or I try that and we would be in jail.
The only way they supported public transportation was if it only ran from the airport to their property with no stops in between and expected everybody else donate their land to them.
They use their workforce as a political tool in a way that makes the unions look like child’s play,while they exploit foreign summer workers that have zero recourse.
They are just another example of a corporation dictating to the public,but exempts themselves from what they pretend they stand for.
They run 1000s of vehicles,ever here them say they are switching to EVs? They will say they are but will not do it,they do not even have to comply with any pollution regulations.
They are like a separate country within the U.S..
My god, you guys are a bunch of rambling old-fogeys.
Dude, back on topic: stations around here aren't going to replace their 87 or 89 octane pumps for an 88/E15 blend just because the administration is granting a temporary exemption to the summertime E15 restriction. You live where they commonly include E15 nozzles on the pump [[currently about 1.5% of the stations nationwide), you might get a break this summer. You don't? Don't hold your breath.
Lol maybe us old-fogeys have been around long enough to realize it’s not that simple.
You youngsters should watch your pro nouns with the Dude and Guys thingyou do not know what we identify as,personally I can be a he that identifies as a she but prefers to be called a them,see us old fogeys do not wonder why you youngsters seem so confused,it’s pretty clear.
We also down south do not use summer and winter blends,which is not actually a blend,it’s an additive package that is poured in the tank when the tankers refuel and no have not seen E15 as of yet.
I posted the tax credit that was passed into reality,E15 is not a temporary fix,if it was there would have been no need,it was already pre planned,when was the last time law makers every came out with something like that before even it was announced to switch to E15 so the switch was decided at least 1 year ago.
No way they could have wrote that law or figured out the tax credits and implemented it in a matter of months.
Before the gas price increase.
For all we know the price increases could have been deliberate in order to do the E15 switch as an excuse.Like I also posted,new EPA restrictions are coming out and companies do not have the millions it takes to comply,so they have to have work around in order for production to be stable.
Mid terms are coming up and consumers are going to driven by the economy,so you will see a lot of things that will pop up that look good on paper but solves nothing or creates long term bad results.
Granted we,myself included did go off track,and we rely on you younger whippersnappers to bring us back in line,but you should really do it with something more credible then,it will never happen because gas stations do not have the infrastructure.
Unlike you youngsters who are easily manipulated,old fogeys have been around the block a few times and have a few more life experiences under their belts,not so easily fooled.
Gas prices went up because 129 out of 135 refineries went idle in the U.S. because of COVID and low demand,COVID is over and it takes time for a refinery to start ramping up production,so it would have been a temporary supply and demand issue,there was no need to create a solution for a problem that did not exist.
The problem was not with prices at the pump,the problem comes in if those 129 refineries have to shut down in 2023 because of newly implemented EPA pollution guidelines on the refineries.
So they threw them a lifeline and called it E15.
The president could have had the EPA extend the deadline,but then he would have lost political points with the save the planet crowd and they would be in an even bigger rampage under the claim a that he was walking back in saving the planet.
So they did it in a round about way that saves face,it’s politics.
They are doing the same thing with refineries as they did with the steel mills,they cannot directly shut them down,but they sure can regulate them out of existence.
I bought my Jaguar 8 years ago for $500,the PO brought it to 3 different specialist mechanics because it would not run and none of them could get it running.
Granted it took me 3 days but what it ended up being was the fuel separation problem,they tried cranking it which filled the fuel injectors with the separated mixture,which corroded them shut quickly.
So I changed the injection rails,drained and refilled the tank and it runs,the only thing I have spent on the car has been normal maintenance items,the PO took a $10,000 bath on the sale at the time.
Politicians brilliant ideas that end up costing consumers millions.
I can't wade through your stream of consciousness. A few points from skimming your diary:
Seasonal blends are not created by an additive to the tanker truck. Those additives are used to change generic gasoline into Shell gasoline or Marathon gasoline or Exxon gasoline.
Seasonal differences in gasoline are met by either limiting RVP or using reformulated gasoline, depending on the nature of pollution in the affected region. Detroit has to use 7.8 RVP in summer or be subject to an RFG requirement like we used to be in years past.
There is no collusion or conspiracy to increase prices by producers, traders, refiners, et al, to speed the introduction of a product they don't produce or sell. Don't be ridiculous. E15 is not a lifeline to a refinery - it's 15% less gasoline they can sell.
129 out of 135 refineries did not shut down during covid. Six of the 135 refineries closed, leaving 129 operating. Refinery inputs decreased no more than 21% at the low point in spring of 2020. Three of the refineries closed had a combined capacity of less than half of Marathon Detroit. One of them explode and burned beyond a salvageable condition. Three of the closing refineries are being turned into renewable diesel refineries.
Now you are down to,not only does Detroit have their own little special gas pumps like nowhere else in the country,the marathon refinery only produces gasoline specifically for Detroit.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM
The gasoline is shipped all over the country,there is no way marathon blends locally for other states because there are different temperatures spans in every state,they would have to blend 50 different batches.
The finial blend is done at local terminals with butane,it’s all about stopping expansion caused by heat expansion.
As a result of several U.S. refinery closures in 2020, U.S. operable atmospheric crude oil distillation capacity, the primary measure of refinery capacity in the United States, dropped 4.5% to a total of 18.1 million barrels per calendar day [[b/cd) at the start of 2021. The end-of-year 2020 total is 0.8 million b/cd less than the 19.0 million b/cd of refining capacity at the start of 2020. According to the data in our annual Refinery Capacity Report, the beginning of 2021 marks the lowest annual capacity figure to start the year since 2015. Based on information reported to us in our recent update, U.S. refining capacity will not expand significantly during 2021.
At the beginning of 2021, 129 refineries were either operating or idle in the United States [[excluding U.S. territories), down from 135 operable refineries listed at the beginning of 2020. The additional refinery closures in the 2021 Refinery Capacity Report largely reflect the impact of responses to COVID-19 on the U.S. refining sector.
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=48636
Covid did not go away from one day to the next,the idled refineries could have started to ramp up production as the states started releasing restrictions,common sense dictates that when people come off of house arrest they are going to drive again which would increase the demand.
I agree with you the gas refineries never manipulate supply in order to increase prices,because they are the poster child of honest business practices.
I bought the Brooklyn bridge during the pandemic and am now short on cash,I can sell it to you cheap.
The U.S. consumes 8.80 million barrels of oil per day,or 365 million gallons of gasoline per day,the 6 that shut down contributed less then 1 million barrels per day ,they had little impact on the bigger picture.
You have to understand the difference between an idled refinery verses a shut down refinery,my bad I assumed,because it is no different then an automobile manufacturer I figured it would be common there.
If I am not mistaken,it is 2022 so they have had over 1.5 years to start ramping up production,but they have not.
On the E15,so explain to me how the existing refineries are going to be able to meet the 2023 EPA guidelines and spend billions without jacking the price of gas up to $30 a gallon without the use of the tax credits?
Are you thinking they are the only corporation in the world that does not pass added cost down to the consumer?
I already have an additional $25 a month fuel charge on top of a $15 per month green energy pre charge added to my electric bill starting 3 months ago,not sure why people have it in their mind the evil corporations are going to absorb all of this out of the kindness of their hearts.
It’s not a conspiracy theory,crap rolls downhill,who do you think is at the bottom of the hill?
I would love to see every refinery shut down in 2023 because of a mandated EPA regulation,the current administrations party would hold no office for the next 50 years.
Thats what happens when you put the cart before the horse just to appease a minority,I paid $5 per gallon today,not that I care because I just pass down the increased amount down to my customers,and they pass it down to the person in the street that is struggling to pay the rent.
See how that works?
19 food processing plants have also burned or exploded this year,they will not be able to feed the country and process the corn for E15 at this point,we are heading for a shit storm come fall even worse if they cannot roll the E15 tax credits over come 2023.
The 2 things this country runs on,food and fuel,is going to be in short supply.
I guess the silver lining in all of this, is we so far do not have bombs raining down on us from the WW3 that you guys started,so $5 per gallon becomes insignificant in the grand scope of thingsz
No, I never said that. Nice try. Detroit does not have "special pumps". Regions where E15 is sold have special pumps, like the pump in this story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
So much wrong here, where to start. The gasoline refineries produce is mostly either CBOB or RBOB [[or CARBOB in California). Both are produced in varying octanes with the final octane rating raised by blending with ethanol after arriving at the terminal. [[Butane is not mixed at the terminal: butane content in the gasoline pool is reduced to around 2% in summer due to its high RVP. Butane is dumped back into the gasoline blending pool in winter if economics make it more attractiveQuote:
...the marathon refinery only produces gasoline specifically for Detroit.The gasoline is shipped all over the country,there is no way marathon blends locally for other states because there are different temperatures spans in every state,they would have to blend 50 different batches.
The finial blend is done at local terminals with butane,it’s all about stopping expansion caused by heat expansion.
Quote:
As a result of several U.S. refinery closures in 2020, U.S. operable atmospheric crude oil distillation capacity, the primary measure of refinery capacity in the United States, dropped 4.5% to a total of 18.1 million barrels per calendar day [[b/cd) at the start of 2021. The end-of-year 2020 total is 0.8 million b/cd less than the 19.0 million b/cd of refining capacity at the start of 2020. According to the data in our annual Refinery Capacity Report, the beginning of 2021 marks the lowest annual capacity figure to start the year since 2015. Based on information reported to us in our recent update, U.S. refining capacity will not expand significantly during 2021.
Quote:
At the beginning of 2021, 129 refineries were either operating or idle in the United States [[excluding U.S. territories), down from 135 operable refineries listed at the beginning of 2020. The additional refinery closures in the 2021 Refinery Capacity Report largely reflect the impact of responses to COVID-19 on the U.S. refining sector.
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=48636
Covid did not go away from one day to the next,the idled refineries could have started to ramp up production as the states started releasing restrictions,common sense dictates that when people come off of house arrest they are going to drive again which would increase the demand.
I agree with you the gas refineries never manipulate supply in order to increase prices,because they are the poster child of honest business practices.
I bought the Brooklyn bridge during the pandemic and am now short on cash,I can sell it to you cheap.
The U.S. consumes 8.80 million barrels of oil per day,or 365 million gallons of gasoline per day,the 6 that shut down contributed less then 1 million barrels per day ,they had little impact on the bigger picture.
You have to understand the difference between an idled refinery verses a shut down refinery,my bad I assumed,because it is no different then an automobile manufacturer I figured it would be common there.
If I am not mistaken,it is 2022 so they have had over 1.5 years to start ramping up production,but they have not.
I don't know what you are trying to prove there. Like I said, refinery runs dropped to a low point in May 2020, from a rolling 5-year average of just under 17 mmb/d to 13 mmb/d. That's not happening with 129 idled refineries. Recent runs are back up to over 15 mmb/d.
Quote:
On the E15,so explain to me how the existing refineries are going to be able to meet the 2023 EPA guidelines and spend billions without jacking the price of gas up to $30 a gallon without the use of the tax credits?
Are you thinking they are the only corporation in the world that does not pass added cost down to the consumer?
I already have an additional $25 a month fuel charge on top of a $15 per month green energy pre charge added to my electric bill starting 3 months ago,not sure why people have it in their mind the evil corporations are going to absorb all of this out of the kindness of their hearts.
It’s not a conspiracy theory,crap rolls downhill,who do you think is at the bottom of the hill?
I would love to see every refinery shut down in 2023 because of a mandated EPA regulation,the current administrations party would hold no office for the next 50 years.
Thats what happens when you put the cart before the horse just to appease a minority,I paid $5 per gallon today,not that I care because I just pass down the increased amount down to my customers,and they pass it down to the person in the street that is struggling to pay the rent.
See how that works?
19 food processing plants have also burned or exploded this year,they will not be able to feed the country and process the corn for E15 at this point,we are heading for a shit storm come fall even worse if they cannot roll the E15 tax credits over come 2023.
The 2 things this country runs on,food and fuel,is going to be in short supply.
I guess the silver lining in all of this, is we so far do not have bombs raining down on us from the WW3 that you guys started,so $5 per gallon becomes insignificant in the grand scope of thingsz
^ Gibberish
I am not trying to prove anything - the question is clearly stated in the thread topic,I answered it and the reasons I believe,and backed up with links,why I believe it is a scam and a case of look here and do not look there.
You reply was it will never happen because gas stations do not have the infrastructure in place to dispense it.
Which was wrong - then when you are shown the facts the best you can do is call gibberish.
Your reply’s are not about E15,your reply’s are based on a narrative and anybody that does not follow it is full of gibberish.
On April 12th, the president made a midterm visit to Iowa. He proposed lifting the summer ban on sales of E15 to help keep prices in check:
On April 13th, the OP posts an article referring to the lifting of the E15 summer sales ban and asks if you will use it. I respond by informing him that it won't be an issue because no one around here sells it. Only 1.5% of the stations in the country sell it, so don't worry about it. You take off on some rambling diatribe about ethanol and post a bunch of false information that shows the shallowness of your knowledge of the refining industry.Quote:
Today, I’m announcing that the Environmental — and I don’t think it’s much of an announcement; it’s already broken out pretty much the last 24 hours — but the Environmental Protection Agency is planning to issue an emergency waiver to allow E15 gasoline that uses more ethanol from homegrown crops to be sold across the United States this summer in order to increase fuel supply. [[Applause.)
And, folks, I feel like — thank you. I feel like, as a minister and I feel like I’m preaching to the choir here. But here’s what it means: E15 is about 10 cents a gallon cheaper than E10, and some gas stations offer an even bigger discount than that.
But many of the gas stations that sell it here in Iowa, Illinois, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania are required to stop selling it in the summer.
But with this waiver, on June 1, you’re not going to show up at your local gas station and see a bag over the pump that has the cheapest gas. You’re going to be able to keep filling up with E15. [[Applause.)
The funny part is how triggered you are. When Trump was president and flew to Iowa during the midterms and proposed lifting the summer E15 sales ban - as a way to increase corn prices! - I didn't come to a Detroit discussion forum and rant for three weeks about it.
Quote:
But last night at a rally in Council Bluffs, Iowa, President Trump made an announcement he hopes will make a lot of those farmers very happy.
[[SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: My administration is protecting ethanol, all right? That's what you want to hear.
[[CHEERING)
TRUMP: Today, we are unleashing the power of E15 to fuel our country all year long.
MARTIN: President Trump is referring to his promise to lift certain restrictions on the sale of ethanol and gasoline in order to boost sales and put more money in the pockets of corn farmers. Clay Masters of Iowa Public Radio was at the rally, and he joins us now from Council Bluffs, Iowa. Good morning, Clay.
CLAY MASTERS, BYLINE: Good morning.
MARTIN: So just lay out for us what President Trump is ordering the EPA to do by lifting regulations on ethanol.
MASTERS: So last night, the president laid out his intent to extend the sale of a kind of gasoline called E15 year-round. Right now, selling it in the summer months is prohibited. E15 is basically gasoline with 15 percent of it being primarily from corn-based ethanol. Doing this could prop up corn prices that have been down thanks to tariffs by other countries imposed in retaliation for the Trump administration's trade war.
You are confused,I am not triggered by it,for every action there is a reaction and for it to be beneficial you have to look at true intent.
E15 burns faster,which means you use more of it quicker which increases the demand and they will sell more of it,so what are you solving outside of increasing production at the refinery and increasing the demand on corn?
So what is the benefit of lowering the price at the pump when all it will do is increase the price at the grocery store,it is actually costing the consumer more in the bigger picture.
The only benefit that kicks in when you attach tax credits for every gallon sold which can then be sold to the refineries so they can meet their pollution standards.
All they really had to do was delay the implementation of the new standards,but that would have looked like they were walking back on pollution promises.
The trade war had zero to do with it,the government has been propping up corn trade and production for decades in order to keep the cost of food down.
E15 does not care about summer or winter,it’s the additives that decrease expansion rates in hot weather that make the difference.
Mainly the use of butane,so what happens when you increase the production of butane?
You are not solving anything because you are then increasing the pollution levels that it takes to create the butane.
It is simple - sorry guys,we want to save the planet but do to circumstances we are going to have to delay certain pollution controls at the refineries so they can ramp up production in order to meet the demand,that will drive prices down.
When you fine a refinery for creating pollution after a certain cut off point,they are going to limit production up to that point,after that point it becomes to expensive to produce and the price goes up accordingly in order to offset the increased fines.
The process is totally irrelevant.
You called the OP a he - she is a female - you live there you should know that,but when you do not pay attention to the bigger picture you lose little pertinent details like that.
LOL! Am I a 'she'....? I've thought so all these years so far, but now I best check with a biologist!
I would not want offend anyone by insisting with any certainty...:rolleyes:...
Back to the topic I'm noticing that 87 Octane is running thru my car like water. Maybe it's the station I am using. Going to try 89. Costs more but if better mileage...:o...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
You need to learn what Reid vapor pressure is, what affects it, how ethanol and butane affect it, and why it's regulated. Then you'd know why E15 cares if it's summer or winter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Butane is not an "additive" - it's not something from outside the refining or production process that you add in [[like a detergent). It's a byproduct of either refining oil or, more commonly, from stripping natural gas liquids at the well or at fractionating plants. Refinery butane has to compete with fractionator butane for supplies to steam crackers at petrochemical plants for ethylene production, and for LPG fuels. It's usually cheap since it's more plentiful in typical shale plays, so dumping it into the gasoline pool in cold months when its high RVP won't push the gasoline RVP over acceptable limits makes economic sense. Of course it depends on the RBOB/butane spread, export demand, storage costs, etc.Quote:
Mainly the use of butane,so what happens when you increase the production of butane?
You are not solving anything because you are then increasing the pollution levels that it takes to create the butane.
The rest is still gibberish.
Geez talk about gibberish,I have a couple of friends that are petro engineers,I can hook you up with them and you can debate the details down to the molecular structure of a drop of gasoline until the cows come home.
The average consumer picks up the pump and puts gas in their car,they are not looking to learn the process.
What they want to know is how much will it cost them,is it bad for my car and what are the ramifications of its use and how does it effect me.
So others and myself have outlined all of those aspects,provided links if somebody wants to go further they are welcome to.
You started this discussion with the comment of - it will never happen because the stations do not have the infrastructure.
So now you have gone from knowing zero to internet searching,and posting the results and then what anybody else says is gibberish.
Grasshopper you have many many years to go in order to catch up to us old foggies that you detest so much,you may be able to impress your other young compatriots while sitting around vaping or getting stoned but most of us where were you are now at before or maybe while you were still in diapers.
You may also learn at some point that when they say they are the government and they are here to help,that is the time when you need to be looking at why because it always comes with a catch and nothing should be taken at face value.
If you want to save the planet and support the polices that they tell you are all about saving the planet,no problem,but until you stop buying crap from China and discontinue the use of plastic,nobody is really saving anything or even serious about saving the planet.
Us old foggies used to bring the groceries home in paper bags and our drinks in glass bottles,all recyclable,we were saving the planet long before it was even a thing.
Its about generating revenue and the ones that can come up with the best heart tugging schemes generate the most revenue.
You will learn about snake oil schemes when you get older and how it costs you money,no problem if you want to give up yours but I like to keep as much as mine as possible,that’s the goal,I did work for it.
No matter how you spin it ,E15 as it is being presented is a snake oil scheme,I already explained the process and who it benefits and what the objective is.
You have not debated any of that,just focusing on the chemistry,which nobody cares about,other then the corn part and the separation issues the rest does not matter.
The chemical make up of snake oil is irrelevant,the circumstances surrounding the sale of snake oil is what is relevant.
Unless of course you can explain the economics of saving .50 at the pump while increasing the cost $3 in food products as a result of and how that actually is beneficial to the consumer.
Simple economics,so why would they make a move like that ? There is a reason.
Trump threw the E15 across the board but in the end easing the pollution restrictions on the refineries and drilling for oil in country was what drove prices down across the board which also lowers the cost of food production.
They can do that now instead of just trying to pull the rug out from fossil fuel with some kind of wet dream deadline that they know will never work.
They can slowly phase it out over a long period of time without bankrupting or throwing 1/2 of the population into poverty in the process.
So then why did you bring up butane and additives and "expansion"? LolQuote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Who went internet searching and posting links and revealed how little they know? LolQuote:
So others and myself have outlined all of those aspects,provided links if somebody wants to go further they are welcome to.
You started this discussion with the comment of - it will never happen because the stations do not have the infrastructure.
So now you have gone from knowing zero to internet searching,and posting the results and then what anybody else says is gibberish.
Thanks for wasting our time with your stream of gibberish, grandpa. Go be useful and drive your jaguar around and report back how many E15 pumps you find.Quote:
Grasshopper you have many many years to go in order to catch up to us old foggies that you detest so much,you may be able to impress your other young compatriots while sitting around vaping or getting stoned but most of us where were you are now at before or maybe while you were still in diapers.
You may also learn at some point that when they say they are the government and they are here to help,that is the time when you need to be looking at why because it always comes with a catch and nothing should be taken at face value.
If you want to save the planet and support the polices that they tell you are all about saving the planet,no problem,but until you stop buying crap from China and discontinue the use of plastic,nobody is really saving anything or even serious about saving the planet.
Us old foggies used to bring the groceries home in paper bags and our drinks in glass bottles,all recyclable,we were saving the planet long before it was even a thing.
Its about generating revenue and the ones that can come up with the best heart tugging schemes generate the most revenue.
You will learn about snake oil schemes when you get older and how it costs you money,no problem if you want to give up yours but I like to keep as much as mine as possible,that’s the goal,I did work for it.
No matter how you spin it ,E15 as it is being presented is a snake oil scheme,I already explained the process and who it benefits and what the objective is.
You have not debated any of that,just focusing on the chemistry,which nobody cares about,other then the corn part and the separation issues the rest does not matter.
The chemical make up of snake oil is irrelevant,the circumstances surrounding the sale of snake oil is what is relevant.
Unless of course you can explain the economics of saving .50 at the pump while increasing the cost $3 in food products as a result of and how that actually is beneficial to the consumer.
Simple economics,so why would they make a move like that ? There is a reason.
Trump threw the E15 across the board but in the end easing the pollution restrictions on the refineries and drilling for oil in country was what drove prices down across the board which also lowers the cost of food production.
They can do that now instead of just trying to pull the rug out from fossil fuel with some kind of wet dream deadline that they know will never work.
They can slowly phase it out over a long period of time without bankrupting or throwing 1/2 of the population into poverty in the process.
Okay youngster,you got me there because the farmers did not go out during the winter to plant the corn,last years crop was already spoken for and sense this years crop will not be planted and ready for market until the fall,it would be tough to find E15 on a large scale now.
Maybe that will give the service stations in Detroit time to change their infrastructure in order to dispense it at that time.
In the meantime feel free to save the planet at your expense and not mine,there are enough fake hairbrain schemes going on out there already sucking peoples wallets dry in order to make a few people feel good about themselves.
Its scheduled to come out in June using the existing 88 octane pumps.
Biden says is it going to be used to reduce independence on foreign oil,funny thing is we were already independent on foreign oil before he took office and changed it.
No one is trying to save the planet. The stated goal was a temporary easing of prices by increasing fuel supply [[removing the E15 summer ban).
How are we already independent of foreign oil? We imported over 8 million barrels per day last week.
Re-read what I wrote.
Of course it is about saving the planet,that was the reason Biden shut down fracking and pipelines as soon as he took office and removed our self reliance on oil.
I thought that was the whole reason behind saving the planet,removing fossils fuels from the equation.
Oppps sorry I forgot,how to make billions off of people thinking they are saving the planet 101.
The estimated savings at the pump equates to 10c per gallon,so people with little cars will save $1 per 10 gallons but spend $3 more in the supermarket for every $1 per savings at the pump.
That is cash out of pocket,now total up what it will cost the taxpayers in additional tax credit costs,billions.
No, at this point it's not about saving the planet. It's all about saving your ego, your self-righteous need to bloviate about any and every topic, your need to crap all over every thread with your logomania. I think your hot air is a bigger threat to the planet than ethanol.
Feel better now? Maybe when you reach the age of 18 you will gain knowledge,even more so the older you get,that’s what happens as you experience life,along the way you gain knowledge,I have knowledge on a large spread,because I made it my business to gain it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM
You started all of this with your comment of E15 will never come in because the service stations did not have the infrastructure.
You posted flat out false information and, I am the problem.
I have not posted anything that I have not either backed up with links or that is not easily searched to verify.
You are pushing a narrative,I presented pertinent information.
You have the world of information at your fingertips and yet you act and treat others with disrespect,you have a lot of learning to do.
Your daddy says it is about saving the planet,you gonna argue with him about it also?
Biden acknowledged that E15 is only sold in a limited number of gas stations, saying “even though E15 is only available in a few thousand pumps today, we’re investing more than $100 million to build biofuel infrastructure of the future — things like . . . blender pumps, the gas pumps that can handle higher blends of bio-ethanol and diesel fuel.”
Biden further referenced his plans to substantially boost production of sustainable aviation fuel [[SAF) to reduce the carbon footprint of the aviation sector. The administration has indicated that it may open paths for producers to make SAF from ethanol, in addition to existing pathways for production of the fuel.
The biofuels industry “has a role to play in a sustainable energy future,” Biden said.
https://www.governorsbiofuelscoaliti...g-term-future/
The reason they do not like to use E15 in the summer? Because it actually increases the levels of pollution,look it up.
You better be careful when you post disinformation like that,your party has a new disinformation squad and they will not think twice about eating their own.
Duh! That's why it's banned. The whole point of the thread was about the ban being waived. Where have you been? Too busy raving to pay attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Nice try on the flipQuote:
Originally Posted by MikeM
If you had known that you would have never come out the gate with - it will never happen because the service stations do not have the infrastructure.
You would have said - good luck with that,when Trump tried doing it the courts struck it down and did not allow it.
The question posted as a thread topic was - will you use blended ethanol gas in your car and will it help?
Pretty simple question.
My raving as you put it outlined the specific reasons as to why I thought it was a bad idea and went in depth as to why.
All you could come up with was - it will never happen,and you considered that a superior well thought out reply.
Thats not a discussion.
Maybe your disconnect comes from not understanding the whole purpose of a discussion is,if the OP was looking for a poll they would have put a poll thingy at the top.
I will tell you a little story,you are free to skip it,it happened probably when you were still in grammar school.
There is a country called Venezuela,it was rolling right along as one of the most productive and wealthiest countries in Latin America.
Along came a farmer called Chavez and decided to take that democracy and create a dictatorship out of it.
Americans did not like that,because dictatorships,socialists and wannabe socialists and commies are not in our Christmas list.
The oil company in the U.S. called CITCO is owned by the Venezuelan government and at the time 7-11 sold CITCO gasoline as their only brand in their 1000s of stores across the country.
Overnight Amercians stopped purchasing gas at 7-11 and from CITCO ,it almost bankrupted 7-11.
If people do not like E15 they will not buy it,you know that,I know that,Biden knows that,implementing it would cost billions in lost revenue.
The one thing you will not admit is,the very act of bringing the topic up under the current leadership was an act of pandering out of desperation.
When he brought it up he was in Iowa,looking for support because Iowa is the leading corn production state in the country.
So instead of looking for solutions to the mess that was created day one in office when those orders were signed removing this country from self reliance,and lower gas prices , and became energy and dependent on other countries.
The gas companies do not set the price per gallon,opec does,E15 does not drive the price of gas down,oversupply does.
All E15 does is water down the base in order to stretch it out.
So why even pander to the population looking for real answers,just like in this thread,people were looking for real answers so they could make that decision if and when the time comes.
Which is a bit more then
It will never happen
The service stations do not have the infrastructure to dispense it.
When the question was - will you use it - will it help
You still have not answered the questions posted and you keep twisting around like a rattle snake in a burlap bag.
The difference between when Trump tried to implement it and Biden trying to implement it?
There is a war going on,no surprise,but it does give Biden a leg up on getting it approved considering it could be sold as in the interest of national economic security.
The state of Michigan has already approved it with zero opposition from the courts,why would they do that if they already knew that the court shot Trump down,unless of course that court was a part of the resist anything Trump aspect.
Look at the timing when Michigan approved it,it was already decided they were going to implement it at least 1.5 years ago.
They not only passed the act,they also figured out the tax credit aspect,that has to be the fastest action any state has ever done in the history of the country.
Imagine if they put that same effort into fixing the potholes,they would be filled so fast it would take people 30 days before they even realized they were fixed.
Or even when it comes to transit.
You have to wonder what was the real motivation behind all of that in order to implement the passing of it at that speed.
Outside of pure desperation.
Like it or not at this time,everything we see feel and eat still depends on fossil fuels in its creation,the only way you are going to drive down costs is by increasing the supply of oil and extend the deadlines on the refineries,but some feel it is necessary to drive this country into a deep dark recession and make millions of Americans suffer all in the name of saving the planet and the best they can come up with is E15 pandering.
The right hand womans response was - all Amercians need to do is lower their standards.
She is kind right though,we really do not need to eat 3 meals a day,people lived without A/C and heating for decades and most rural locations did not get electricity until after 1946.
You have quite the imagination. I never flipped. I "came out of the gate" with E15 can't be bought around here, so you won't have a choice. And it didn't take me 35 paragraphs to say it. 35!
Do you only see the world day by day?Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM
It is being staged for the summer,June,is it summer yet or June in Detroit?
Or do you have special months outside of the rest of the world to match your special gas pumps?
The state would have never passed the bill and tax credit package at light speed if they did not intend on implementing it.
See that is the problem,you make it personal,it is not my imagination,I posted the links to back it up.
You are correct it did not take you 35 paragraphs to post false information but then again shallow minds should stick to shallow thoughts.
You are mistaken if you think that this thread has been about yours or mine little playground,there are others that would like to see the bigger picture,just because you do not like it personally,nobody cares.
Others are smart enough to take what they wish out of it,if they learned something all the better,knowledge is power,trying to restrict knowledge that you do not like or how it is presented is weak.
You will learn stuff like that as you mature.
All of the evilness and suffering going on in the world and what concerns you the most is somebody posting 35 paragraphs on the internet.
You should take advantage of your ability to travel while you are young,maybe it will give you a grasp of how lucky you really have it,while you bitch about 35 paragraphs on the internet in other places entire families are getting slaughtered,they would love to change places with you so you do not have to suffer the trauma of seeing 35 paragraphs on the internet.
You have a choice they did not.
Mid terms are coming up and there is zero positive news for a certain party and that spells disaster,if they can kick in E15 and be able to say look we brought the price of gas down see how good we are,it does not matter what the consequences are,so if it is thought that E15 will be a quick way of getting some positive press,you will have E15 coming out of your south end.
Short term fixes that are designed to pump up ratings have long term negative consequences,most that have been around for awhile are well aware of that.
There are people a lot more powerful then you setting the stage for it to happen,so outside of you saying it will not happen,maybe coming up with some positives that would give people a little more insite or even your reasons why it will not happen it may be a bit more productive.
There is nothing in this world that you can say it will never happen, because somebody some where always has a reason or motive to make it happen.
All I have done is complied information from multiple different sources and condensed it down,even if it is 35 paragraphs,it is still less time consuming to somebody that does not want to do or does not have the time to research certain topics,you and others with a limited attention span may be triggered by that,but you are not the only one in existence and the world was not put into existence in order to cater to you.
Its like anything else in life,it’s there,what you do with it or how you apply it is up to you,you and others are not the designated spokesperson for society or how much information they should be subject to.
To me the only person that can dictate to me the length or content of my posts is the owner of the site,it is their realm,anybody else that may have an issue,you have the option of cancelling your voice out by blocking me.
It’s really not that complicated.
Lol, the irony.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Of course, just understand that NO ONE is reading them. Perhaps they'll read the first couple of lines, then the last couple.
You end up conveying less, not more.
Did you know that the number one rule with posting dis-information on the internet that is taught?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket
Keep your post in under 3 lines and to the point.
Not everything is that simple and for people to understand sometimes things take a little bit more of an explanation,you can train a monkey or bot to simply post - it will never happen.
Whats the point of that outside of seeking recognition without actually participating.
The thread has over 2300 views,it’s kinda hard to make the claim that NO ONE read it,ya think?
Maybe that is the real reason for the downfall of print media,people no longer have the attention span past 3 lines like they are living in a Twitter world.
My 2020 F250 has 3 different sections of owner’s manual over 150 pages,you guys should tell Ford nobody can read anymore if it goes past 3 lines,it would save them millions.
How is my posting length any different then the links people post where when you click on them,it leads to twice the amount of words?
I have no interest in climbing Mt Everest,but I would not feel it is my place to dictate to those that are interested in climbing it as to how they should go about it.
It shows how screwed up people are,read comments in forums,Facebook,Facebook market place,next door etc ,95% of the comments have zero to do with what is posted,just people going after the poster and the content.
I can make it simple for people
No,I will not use E15,because it sucks.
Now where do I pick up my participation trophy?
Not that I care and it’s just an observation,others have made long posts,including ones that feel the need to complain about long posts, but nobody has an issue there.
That tells me it is not the length of the post that is the issue,more so a fraction of people that use that beef in order to be a part of that group that goes around patting each other in the back because they view those actions as a score against the opposition.
I am not a needy person,I make my own way in life and and view contributions as a little more then 3 lines posted on the internet that really says nothing,that deserves some kind of participation trophy.
I can talk to myself and say things that are meaningless,without having to post them on the internet.
No wonder everywhere you go,even to restaurants,everybody is staring at their phones,seems like nobody actually has discussions anymore.
How does anybody even get a college degree anymore,maybe they limit the exams to 3 lines or less ?
Maybe that is the real reason people cannot afford to buy a house and spend night and day telling the internet about it,they would never be able to fill out a mortgage application because it is longer then 3 lines.
You get back in life the effort you put into it,if all people can comprehend in the learning process is anything printed in 3 lines or less,they are going to have a hard go at it.
Over 2300 views,if 1 person walked away with a better understanding,that’s all that matters,the other 99% is indicative of why there are successful people and there are not because most will not make the effort to get to where they want to be.
The forum is no different,there will be those who seek more knowledge on a particular subject and there will be those who will input non essential things because it does not interest them,and they think in a singular pattern,if it does not interest them,they feel it should interest nobody else.
^ Thread read count NOT EQUAL to post read count. Having 20+ paragraphs, with many Red Herrings, makes the extra effort less worth it to read. There are at least 10 posters that have suggested that to you remove the fluff, which you have ignored. Also you have issues with mixing homonyms. Not a good sign for getting your points across.
^ so why does it bother you so much ? Are your lives really that petty ?
In the bigger picture others have bombs raining down on them,on the list of things to give a crap about,10 anonymous people triggered about post length on a web site ranks at a level 56 stories below who cares.
On the other hand, if those same 10 posters would simply hit the "ignore" button... they wouldn't even notice the "fluff". It works wonders ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
See how easy that is.
Now if those 10 posters are really interested in the topic they can go visit 15 different sites and spend even more time reading hundreds of additional paragraphs in order to get the same information they could have got in one place and at a fairly safe site.
Because that is what I did,compiled multiple levels of information into 15 paragraphs in one place and provided links for verification to as what it was posted.
Your not canceling me out by blocking me because you do not like my political leanings,you are just creating more time and work for yourself if you are really interested in the subject.
But then again there are those that prefer a population that takes everything at face value and does not peal back the layers in order to get the real picture,it makes them much easier to manipulate,and there is a percentage of the population that prefers it that way,because it is what they are comfortable with.
Some keep making threads personal,I do not care about E15,I already knew of the dangers of E10,I do not care about the price of gas or inflation because I am a business,all costs get passed down to my customers.
But it is not about me personally and I am well aware that things like that impact a large part of the population and makes the country a weaker place as a whole.
The only thing those 10 posters did was tell the rest of the world that the only thing they care about is themselves in the bigger picture and they expect everything they come across to be tailored to their personal liking.
I get a kick out of all of this - we going to make these evil corporations pay by implementing these polices,the cost to implement those policies is passed down to you the consumer,so the only person you are making pay is yourself and driving your standard of living lower.
In 1970 the price of an average new car was $3500 and represented 1/3 of the average household income,in 2022 the average cost of a new car is $52,000 and represents 54% of the average household income.
Auto manufacturers are still in business turning billions in revenue,the only thing that has been changed with policies implemented is the cost to purchase a new car has increased while the ability for the average family to purchase one has decreased.
They did not build crap cars that were little value after 100,000 miles because they were crap builders,there was no need to build a car that lasts 200,000 miles because at the time a majority of the population could afford to buy a new car every three years,and that’s what they did.
Fit weren’t fir guys like Ralph Nader or Phil Edmunston in Canada, companies might still be gouging consumers at 35% of income versus now, with more longevity and resale value. Competition took care of the rest. In particular, Toyota kicked other manufacturers asses worldwide, to which they needed to reply, albeit awkwardly. Cars coming into NA come from far shores nowadays, he quality has gone up, and people expect a better product because good old lefties brought it on. Lol
Ya know you can go to some crap hole country,out in the sticks that only has one power line that the entire community,and visit the one little local store and 90% of the time you will see a 1940s/1950s made in America,most cases in Detroit,refrigerator still humming along doing what it was intended to do.
The influx of imports back then filled the needs for people that recognized value for the money and did not fall into that category of buying a new car every 3 years,it was still a major necessity to have transportation and why buy something 3 times when it was only necessary to buy it once.
Lefties also recognize value for the money,no different then the righties although now I think people have leaned away from that concept and are as a majority only look at the immediate costs.
That is why China imports 3 billion in cheap crap into this county compared to our 100 million we export to them. Not exact numbers but the jist of it.
When we really look at E15 does it really accomplish the goal that it is presented as,driving the cost down at the pump,on the surface you save 10c per gallon,sounds wonderful,but as I have presented it will actually cost the consumer more across the board then they are already paying.
We are lucky as Americans with all of this free flow of money comparatively,many think that those were the good old days and families picked cash off of the trees in the back yard,but they did not,they also struggled to make ends meet and went through the trails and tribulations of the economy shifts,for survival they recognized value for money.
Close the door,were you born in a barn,do not stand in front of the fridge with the door open looking for something,shut off the light when you leave the room,stop running the water for 30 minutes in order to brush your teeth etc.
There are so many products out there that society has told people that they must have,that they really do not need and people wonder why they cannot afford anything.
I paid $450 for my phone 1 year ago,now the screen driver thing is going bad,$250 to fix that,that’s $700 just in a stupid phone,I paid $40 for my first car my mortgage in the early 90s was only $385 per month,for a house.
People have a mountain of opportunities to waste money on things already,no need to implement even more policies sold on,it will save you money when it actually cost you more.
Same thing is going to happen with EVs,the only thing you are doing is changing the way a car moves forward,they still need the infrastructure they roll on,the materials they are produced with and the labor to build them.
Cities and states are already implementing and additional $150 per year EV registration fee and looking at tax sur-charges at the charging stations,they still have to replace the revenue they are losing from the gas taxes in order to support the infrastructure.
I kinda think EVs as they become more popular,are going to be more expensive then ICE to operate and purchase,because demand will drive up the cost of production,even worse if government budgets get tight and the incentives dry up.
The only way to drop prices at the pump is to produce more oil then the demand,gluts drive prices down,as it is going they are looking at ways to decrease production of fossil fuels,which drives prices up at the pump and also as a side effect every other thing we purchase.
Its the cost of implementation that is what is driving people into the poor house.
Corporate greed - Is it not the goal for the worker to also seek as much as possible for services rendered?
When was the last time you saw a worker that said,I am making $200k a year but I only need $100k a year to survive comfortably,so just pay me the $100k otherwise I feel greedy.
The term corporate greed is one made up by the socialists because they think everybody should be distributed the same amount of money per month regardless of their input in society.
But you will see none of them distributing their weekly pay evenly amongst their neighbors.
And you will see a lot of politicians pushing a socialist agenda as they live in multi million dollar homes with hundred million dollar stock portfolios.
You see the new stimulus package being implemented after the COVID one wanes down,allow a war to start,it pumps billions back into the economy in replacing all of the materials needed to fight it.
And it's official: Nationwide Fuel Waiver Allowing E15 Gasoline [[pdf)
A rolling 20-day waiver to continue until fuel supply issues ease. Likely to be challenged in court, as was Trump's lifting of the E15 ban.
Still won't affect Detroit with its 7.0 RVP restriction, nor the rest of Michigan, where nary an E15 pump can be found, lol.
If you are in Detroit, here are the nearest E15 stations if you want to save a dime, lol:
Anew Fuel Station, Zeeland
BP, Bad Axe
BP, Adrian
Carbon Green BioEnergy, Lake Odessa
Freeport General Store, Freeport
Ignash Petroleum, Kinde
McCormick Fuel, Montague
NuVu Fuels, Ionia
NuVu Fuels, Rockford
The Depot, Edmore
Or...there are a couple in the Toledo area.
Make sure you update the list when the summer blend is introduced in June and as stated any gas station that currently sells 88 octane is already able to dispense E15.
Lol
Hell, I'll give them until July 1st so they have time to update their websites. I know the jobbers who don't offer it now will be rushing out to install new underground tanks and pumps based on a twenty day waiver that could not be renewed at any given time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
You still don't seem to understand that only a handful of places sell Unleaded 88 in Michigan, so here is a pretty picture for you Attachment 42079Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
If you own a gas station and I tell you I will give you an additional .35 cents per gallon over and above what you are already making per gallon sale,what are you going to push to sell more of?Quote:
Originally Posted by jcole
Newer gas stations are already set up to sell the product,it does not matter what previous octane was dispensed from that pump before.
The reason they pick the current 88 is because you cannot eliminate premium with corvettes and hellcats floating around,they will take the lowest grade pump and dispense from that.
If one has the argument that every gas station in the city in Detroit is over 30 years old,then it would be plausible that nobody would be able to sell it.
But when you are offering the gas station cash back for every gallon sold,as a business you would be stupid not to sell it,it’s free money for something that you were already selling anyways.
The economics of it is the definition of insanity,pay a service station .35 per gallon so the customer can save .10 per gallon ,does that make sense to you as a taxpayer?
Weather you use it or not,it will increase your grocery bill more then it has already increased.
The discussion related to the actual E15 is really irrelevant,it’s the secondary impact that will lighten your wallet,it does matter if you use it or not,it’s intent as proposed is to save money at the pump but what good does it do if you save .10 at the pump if it cost you $5.00 to save it?
If you want I will trade you a $5 bill for a $10 bill then give you back $2 and you can say you saved $2.
I do not think you are that crazy.
The idea behind it is to increase the supply without drilling more by watering down the existing supply.
Like when we were kids robbing our parents liquor cabinet then putting water in to make it look like nothing was removed.
Supply and demand dictates prices,the way to bring the price down at the pump is to increase the supply so it is a glut.
Imagine what would happen if our current leader stood up and said - drill baby drill,so his solution was to water down the current supply in order to extend it,it does not matter whose pocket makes up the difference and he is banking on what we are seeing,very few will look past - wow I am saving .10 per gallon if I use this.
Wow... not many places at all. So this thread is sort of moot for Michigan... :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by jcole
Do you like green eggs and ham?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
That Sam I am
That Sam I am
I do not like green eggs and ham
You will have to excuse me ,sometimes I forget to bring it down to your level in reply’s :rolleyes:
Yes, Gistok, despite the 89 posts.
And despite the state slamming the tax credit legislation through in less then a week when they have not been able to fix a pothole in 4 years sorry 6 years,because they also do not think it will happen.
Why would they do that if there will be no gas stations selling it?
Your argument is based on going outside in July and there is no snow on the ground,while saying no snow so we will not have a winter.
Then you give yourself trophies for that analysis.
Like a gas pump is going to know the difference between E10 and E15,my bad I forgot,Detroit has special gas stations that nobody else in the world has,carry on.
Of course you guys may very well be recognizing that with the moves you have been making in the last 2 years,by the time June rolls around everybody will be so broke they will not be able to afford a car to even put gas in.
Maybe that’s why despite all the evidence and proof pointing to it happening or doing everything they can to make it happen,you are doubling down on it will not happen,it could also be you just do not have enough faith in your peoples agenda,that you do not even believe what they are shoveling.
If you do not believe them,why did you waste everybody’s time and money electing them?
For someone that doesn't live here, you really do like saying things that are not true a lot about our state. :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Here are 23 pages of construction closures... and this is only by the state [MDOT], and not even the county work done by Michigan's 83 counties... ;)
https://mdotjboss.state.mi.us/MiDrive/construction
You really have to shut down an entire road or freeway in order to fix a pothole,we just use 6 supervisors and one guy with a shovel and a truck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
They put up a little orange triangle sign that shows a picture of a guy with a shovel and people just drive around,no need to shut the road down during the 20 minutes it takes to fix it,excluding breaks.
No wonder it takes so long.
Unless of course if you completely twisted my words in order to fit your narrative your reply would make sense,but then you would be doing the same thing as your leaders are,thinking everybody is really that stupid.
It is my fault though,when I mentioned potholes I should have clearly defined what a pothole actually is,so it would not get confused with major road construction,I figured most would know the difference,I guess I was wrong.
You are right,I do not live there,you guys may define a pothole similar to resurfacing a 26 mile stretch of freeway,where we would define it as a hole in the road that should not be there.
We also define a pothole as a road hazard,so when you call it in,it is repaired within 24 hours,because we hold our elected accountable,if I hit a pothole and it damages my car,the city pays to get it repaired because it is their job to maintain the roads,that’s why we pay taxes.
To clarify our definition of a pot hole - A hole in the surface of the roadway usually round shaped like a pot - pothole
A pot is a circular container usually used in cooking,it holds the portion within so it can be cooked without placing the food directly on the heat source,you may just open a can of soup and pour it directly on the heat source,but we are a bit more civilized.
Pot not to be confused with nowadays is referred to as weed,Mary Jane,marjuiana,wakey tabacky and numerous other names,that would have to be consumed in massive quantities in order to confuse a pothole with major road construction.
So it is not actually a hole in the road filled with pot.
Maybe if you had not spent 4 years resisting you would have actually collected the fed infrastructure funds,to fix the potholes,but now not only do you still have them,you have to pay to fix them out of your pocket 100%.
I guess sense I do not live there,I have to thank you for resisting though and doing your part to keep the national debt lower,so next time you drive over a bone jarring pothole just tell yourself,hey it was worth it ,as you navigate on to the next one.
Now I know,you guys have special 25 mile long potholes and special gas stations that nobody else in the world has and 1 otter that shows up every 100 years.
Its been a very informative week for me.
So what do you guys call that hole in the road,if not a pothole,a road surface vent? It’s supposed to be there by design ?
You live there betcha you cannot even tell me how many potholes have been filled in the city of Detroit in the last 30 days,without searching.
If you cannot what is your excuse,because you do live there.
Go ahead and say it - but Richard I do not live in the city of Detroit so how would I know that information.
My reply would be - Gistok I do not live there either but I know it is a major issue with the residents and by all accounts there are even more of them 6 years later and sense 4 years were wasted on resist but now there have been more funds in the name of COVID recovery dedicated to curing the potholes from COVID you should be able to tell me how many have been fixed in the last 30 days.
I forgot there was a rat out a pothole thread because city and state officials need you to tell them where they are because they do not drive the roads themselves or apparently care enough to find them on their own.
The simplest thing would be to think of them as republican right wing nazi non shot taking potholes and it would justify shutting down the entire state and they would be fixed within 2 days.
Lol, the bill you linked? The one introduced by a Republican? With no co-sponsors? Back in January before the administration proposed lifting the E15 ban? The one that has been languishing in the agriculture committee ever since?Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Actually, it does. If you'd bother to read instead of typing so much, you would find the tank and pump material requirements, approved makes and models, as well as the requirements for record keeping, labeling, insurance, etc.Quote:
Like a gas pump is going to know the difference between E10 and E15,my bad I forgot,Detroit has special gas stations that nobody else in the world has,carry on.
And no, Detroit doesn't have special gas stations - no one ever said that. It's the E15 stations that are special. What I did claim, is that Detroit has its own gasoline RVP requirements, as required by its state implementation plan to meet the national air quality standards.
And here you are doubling down on spreading fake and false information.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM
5 Conclusions
This study found that significant changes to safety testing standards have incorporated fuel blends with more than 10% volume ethanol. This has led to many refueling equipment products compatible with E15. A station owner can compare its equipment records against the compatibility list in the appendices of this report to determine if there is a need to update or upgrade any equipment to sell E15. The majority of tanks are compatible as existing pipe manufacturers have had listing for E100 for many years, UL-listed E25 dispensers and retrofit kits are available, as is hanging hardware [[a combination of E25 and E85 UL-listed equipment). Many manufacturers’ models, as well as other UST equipment including fill equipment, leak detection, overfill prevention, and containment, are compatible with E15.
A literature review was conducted to determine if there were any negative impacts during the multi-year deployment of E10 nationwide. No incidents of E10 causing releases were identified, and no infrastructure industry experts suggested that there were widespread issues with E10.
https://afdc.energy.gov/files/u/publ...astructure.pdf
1. What are the EPA’s equipment requirements for storing and selling E15? Can my existing tanks handle E15?
The EPA requires that equipment storing and dispensing E15 carry either a UL listing or a manufacturer’s warranty. Either one can fulfill the requirement on its own. All steel tanks carry a manufacturer’s warranty and are therefore approved for storing E15. Almost all double-walled fiberglass tanks installed in the past 30 years carry warranties for storing E15, too. And for any retailers still unsure as to whether their equipment is compatible, The Petroleum Equipment Institute has a library of warranty information to help clear up any confusion.
2. What dispensers are approved for selling E15? Do I need special pumps?
In most cases, retailers will not need new pumps to dispense E15. All Wayne dispensers are compatible with ethanol levels up to E15’s. Additionally, all Gilbarco dispensers from 2008 or newer are approved for E15.
Correcting misinformation on compatibility is a critical part of expanding E15’s footprint, and Growth Energy’s Market Development team stands ready to assist interested retailers in navigating this process.
http://ethanolproducer.com/articles/...%20E15’s.
This was your post #33
But you won't because A) most stations don't have the infrastructure to deliver it. Of course you don't know that since you live in Russia and have never visited Detroit, and B) you don't have to stick the E15 pump in your tank.
……………..
You posted a false statement in a pathetic attempt to make me look bad and you are still trying to double down on that.Then threw in the ignorant remark about Russia or never visiting Detroit.
You were not concerned about posting factual information in order to help others,you took a false statement and used it to push a stupid political and personal statement while making yourself look like a fool in the process.
So now all you have to do is provide your information where you derived your statements from that contradicts every other expert in the field including the U.S. governments own study.
Nobody has to check their records for anything,any gas station owner knows full well if their tanks and other equipment has been replaced in the last 30 years,because all of that equipment was certified to surpass E15 over 30 years ago.
There are no gas stations in the city or region of Detroit that mix fuel onsite so they do not have to change any equipment related to that.
I will be waiting for you to provide the information that backs up your claim that E15 stations are special.
Gasoline falls under federal regulations,as far as the deal worked out between the City Of Detroit and the state?
Is your party really going to stand up and say - FU Biden and admit they are implementing something that will actually increase pollution levels?
Then your party has to admit to the entire country that not only have they created policies that are driving everybody into the poorhouse,started WW3,and now want to smog everybody to death with E15 so people can save $1 per fill up ?
You need to spend less time worrying about republicans and more time grabbing on to the rim of the toilet as your party circles down the drain with all of these blatant self destructive measures.
Everybody know he created this mess from day 1 in office when he shut down the production in this country.
Who would have ever thought reduced production,increases prices.
That’s why Shell is reporting record profits,all you guys did was pander to the oil companies while running a fake save the planet narrative,they are being rewarded off of the misery of millions of Americans that are paying the price.
Your own party members that dictate energy policy,own 93 million in fossil fuel stocks,when do you think they make more money,when it sells for $2 per gallon or when it sells for $6 per gallon.
Your own party is bending you over,and double charging you for the petro grease and the best you can come up with is - you have never visited Detroit.
No wonder the socialists wakos have highjacked your party,you make it easy.
You do not recognize the direct correlation between companies showing record profits while the standard of living for all Americans has dropped to 40 year lows in the last 2 years ?
We are going after those evil corporations ,translates into ,we only have a few years in office so we need to pump up those corporations so we can max out our stock value as quick as possible.
The only reason for a corporation to exist is to make money for its shareholders,when your party is invested in fossil fuel as shareholders,do you really think they are going to do anything that reduces the share values?
Sure at about the same time everybody walks up to their employers and tells them they will take a 50% pay cut because they are nice people.
TLDR
I leave town for a few days, I should have known Karl would go on a rant. But, he admits it's really about making him look bad - that's what is really important, isn't it?
I did see one mention of Detroit in there: "Gasoline falls under federal regulations,as far as the deal worked out between the City Of Detroit and the state?"
No, between the state and the federal government:
Approval and Promulgation of Air Quality Implementation Plans; Michigan; Control of Gasoline Volatility
I'll report back next month with the increased count of E15 stations, lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM
You have to admit though, he is entertaining … to himself.
This is not necessarily political. I just wanted to find out how much gasoline costs per mile. The average cost for a gallon of regular gasoline in the U.S. is $4.52. The average miles per gallon of our auto and SUV fleet in 2020 was 25.4 mpg.
$4.52/25.4mpg= 17.8 cents/mile or $17.80/100 miles.
Now they are predicting $6 per gallon which at this time it does make an EV cheaper per mile.
The true cost per mile for an EV is based on many different inputs into the equation,verses pulling up to the pump and putting gasoline in.
That will change as the cost of fuel supply to the power plant goes up,California is also tinkering with a three tier charging rate system,the cheapest being charge from home,off peak.
Peak is the key word,as buildings and the things that draw the biggest loads like the A/C systems become more efficient,moving millions to the grid with night charging will change peak times.
Power companies are going to do what they do when they know they have you locked in.
That’s why it is really hard to have the debate as to if an EV makes economic sense long term.
As the price of gas rises,so does the interest in EVs but that can change pretty quick.
England has always had fuel prices double of what ours are if not more,but nobody there is rushing to switch to EVs,but their average MPG is double of what ours is,has been for a very long time.
Fifth waiver for summertime E15 sales issued July 19th. Two months now of permitted E15 sales yet still only 10 stations in Michigan selling it. Lol
Fight to lift US E15 sales restrictions creates strange bedfellows among oil, biofuel groups
Quote:
In a rare move, oil, biofuel and farm groups are all on the same page, rallying together to champion swift action on legislation that would do away with a summertime ban on sales of a gasoline blend containing 15% ethanol.
Oil refiners and biofuel producers have oft been at odds over regulations setting the amount of renewable fuel that must be mixed with gasoline and diesel each year. But on the issue of E15, they were united in support of a legislative solution to inconsistent fuel volatility regulations that have created barriers to fuel marketers and retailers offering E15 to US drivers.
While E10, which contains 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline, is widely accepted and available from retailers across the country year-round, current law prohibits the sale of E15 in conventional gasoline markets, which make up about 70% of the US gasoline market, from June 1 to Sept. 15 due to Environmental Protection Agency restrictions on air pollution from gasoline.
"Though oil and biofuel groups have fought like cats and dogs over the years, they have a common goal of limiting uncertainty and curtailing litigation expenses," Corey Lavinsky, global manager of biofuels analytics at S&P Global Commodity Insights, said Nov. 22. "Proposed legislation needs to overcome many hurdles before it becomes law. E15 use has expanded considerably in 2022, but laws restricting its use in the summer remain the status quo until new ones are passed."