Heartless Attempt to Patch Roads by Making the Working Poor of Detroit & Michigan Pay

I have heard much whining over the elimination of the film credits but very little about the cynical ending of the state earned income credit EIC. With the Sales Tax increase referendum on road funding in ashes, our state legislature has cobbled together a new funding bill that eliminates both.

The EIC is a tax credit created as an incentive/reward to the working poor with children for working instead of throwing up one's hands and going on public assistance. If your income is low enough you become eligible for a credit against taxes or may even get a return if no money is owed. Mind you, you still pay FICA taxes of between 7.65 and 15.3% of your income and other taxes such as the sales tax.

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Roughly 780,500 taxpayers qualified for the Michigan EITC in 2013, according to the state treasury, with the average credit totaling $140. Larger credits are given to families at or near the poverty line with children.
From mlive.com

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Along comes Rep. Farrington of Utica who has the audacity to say EIC does little to help the working poor! to justify its elimination.

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Farrington testified the EITC "goes beyond being a credit -- it's a subsidy," because it can be paid to residents with no income tax liability. He said the average Michigan payout is only $143 a year, meaning it does little to help the working poor, but he said it is based on a federal EITC, which a federal audit suggests is rife with fraud.
From Freep.com

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I am very comfortable in life now but not without struggle and lean years in my past when I qualified for an EIC and never took a cent of assistance. I know that $143 is just supper at Joe Muir's for Mr. Farrington, but for those struggling as I was it can be the difference between keeping one's lights on, getting gas for work or just taking your kid out the buck movies. I know.

This elimination will hit Detroit, and other jurisdictions, where the working poor reside, the hardest. $115 million will be taken out of those pockets and put into the pockets of road contractors. Shameful.

Not related to the unfortunate and typically mean-spirited legislation Lowell mentioned, is this other gem passed by the Michigan GOP.

http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/e...tion/71074414/

So now LGBT taxpayers get to fund adoption agencies that will refuse to deal with them. Fairness, GOP style.

Michigan seems hell-bent in becoming the Mississippi of the Midwest.

http://www.ew.com/sites/default/file...4/22/gif_1.gif

Elections have consequences, unfortunately.

Last Novemeber MI said it likes where it's going.

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Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast

Not related to the unfortunate and typically mean-spirited legislation Lowell mentioned, is this other gem passed by the Michigan GOP.

http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/e...tion/71074414/

So now LGBT taxpayers get to fund adoption agencies that will refuse to deal with them. Fairness, GOP style.

Michigan seems hell-bent in becoming the Mississippi of the Midwest.

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Yep, it has even earned itself the honorary nickname "Michississipi."

And to pile on top of these half-ass backwards political events that have taken place recently, since the auto industry collapse, I think this state is now one of the poorer and lesser-educated in the nation.

780500 X $140 = $109,270,000. That's a lot of money the rest of the taxpayers have to make up, not counting all the other assistance, social, educational, rehabilitative, and medical programs.

The GOP couldn't wait to eliminate so-called "freebie" programs that help the disadvantage in this state. In a nutshell, Michigan sucks. We have to suffer with this "clown" administration, another 3 years.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

780500 X $140 = $109,270,000. That's a lot of money the rest of the taxpayers have to make up, not counting all the other assistance, social, educational, rehabilitative, and medical programs.

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Latest population for Michigan per Wikipedia: 9,909,877

9,909,877 - 780,500 = 9,129,377 : Population minus the # who qualify for EITC

109,270,000 / 9,129,377 = $11.97 : EITC cost paid by rest of population

Rest of the population has to make up $11.97 per person per year.

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Originally Posted by archfan

Latest population for Michigan per Wikipedia: 9,909,877

9,909,877 - 780,500 = 9,129,377 : Population minus the # who qualify for EITC

109,270,000 / 9,129,377 = $11.97 : EITC cost paid by rest of population

Rest of the population has to make up $11.97 per person per year.

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Population = 9,129,377

Number of tax returns with positive input to the state = a number significantly less. Your denominator is off.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

780500 X $140 = $109,270,000. That's a lot of money the rest of the taxpayers have to make up, not counting all the other assistance, social, educational, rehabilitative, and medical programs.

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so repeal the tax cut to corporations [[payed for with ANOTHER tax increase for the working poor) and institute a tiered, progressive tax system

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Originally Posted by rb336

so repeal the tax cut to corporations [[payed for with ANOTHER tax increase for the working poor) and institute a tiered, progressive tax system

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Yeah, state tax of 91% on anything over $500K a year. That will really fill the state coffers. No? Tennessee, North Carolina, New Hampshire, Texas, and Florida will gladly welcome those high income people.

Could it be that this has come home to roost?

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2011 tax code re-write was projected to save businesses $1.6 billion annually by 2013, mostly by repealing the oft-derided Michigan Business Tax.

It was also projected to boost individual income tax collections by $1.4 billion, mostly by reducing earned income and homestead credits while phasing out and scaling back a long-standing exemption on pension income.

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Again with this new bill business profits most, the working poor, lower income earners and pensioners pay.

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Originally Posted by Lowell

Could it be that this has come home to roost?



Again with this new bill business profits most, the working poor, lower income earners and pensioners pay.

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Don't worry, it will all trickle down.

My partner and I have actually talked about spending a big chunk of the summer in Michigan, but for reasons such as the political climate we have decided to spend more of it elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Lowell

Could it be that this has come home to roost? Again with this new bill business profits most, the working poor, lower income earners and pensioners pay.

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And in 2014, all of the legislators who voted for the bill were turned out of office in a massive landslide as the working poor, lower income earners, and pensioners retaliated?

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Originally Posted by Lowell

I have heard much whining over the elimination of the film credits but very little about the cynical ending of the state earned income credit EIC. With the Sales Tax increase referendum on road funding in ashes, our state legislature has cobbled together a new funding bill that eliminates both.

The EIC is a tax credit created as an incentive/reward to the working poor with children for working instead of throwing up one's hands and going on public assistance. If your income is low enough you become eligible for a credit against taxes or may even get a return if no money is owed. Mind you, you still pay FICA taxes of between 7.65 and 15.3% of your income and other taxes such as the sales tax.



Along comes Rep. Farrington of Utica who has the audacity to say EIC does little to help the working poor! to justify its elimination.


I am very comfortable in life now but not without struggle and lean years in my past when I qualified for an EIC and never took a cent of assistance. I know that $143 is just supper at Joe Muir's for Mr. Farrington, but for those struggling as I was it can be the difference between keeping one's lights on, getting gas for work or just taking your kid out the buck movies. I know.

This elimination will hit Detroit, and other jurisdictions, where the working poor reside, the hardest. $115 million will be taken out of those pockets and put into the pockets of road contractors. Shameful.

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So you find someone who has different ideas than you do, and instead of a discussion on ideas -- you decide they are 'heartless'.

Not everyone agrees with you.

In this case, I do agree. The EIC is a fine program for wealth redistribution -- and it does so in a very positive way.

Some don't agree with us. Let's work to change their minds. Not to belittle them as individuals with moral flaws -- although it may well be true.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

The EIC is a fine program for wealth redistribution -- and it does so in a very positive way.

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Ah! I think that's called 'communism'. Am I wrong?

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Originally Posted by Ray1936

Ah! I think that's called 'communism'. Am I wrong?

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Except my friend John Galt, everyone is in the wealth redistribution [[WR) game.

Communists more want to eliminate private wealth. WR really is more socialist.

WR is a fact of life even in America. Entitlements provided by tax dollars already take lots of money from more wealthy to less wealthy.

So the question isn't so much whether we should redistribute, but how much. Lowell thinks any reduction in government-mandated redistribution is cold-hearted. I disagree. There are a lot of ways we can help those in need. Government-mandated wealth redistribution is probably the least effective tool in the toolbox.

Given a choice, I'd rather see Bill Gates help the poor. Thank God that he does. It shows us what can be done when government gets out of the way.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Except my friend John Galt, everyone is in the wealth redistribution [[WR) game.

Communists more want to eliminate private wealth. WR really is more socialist.

WR is a fact of life even in America. Entitlements provided by tax dollars already take lots of money from more wealthy to less wealthy.

So the question isn't so much whether we should redistribute, but how much. Lowell thinks any reduction in government-mandated redistribution is cold-hearted. I disagree. There are a lot of ways we can help those in need. Government-mandated wealth redistribution is probably the least effective tool in the toolbox.

Given a choice, I'd rather see Bill Gates help the poor. Thank God that he does. It shows us what can be done when government gets out of the way.

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^ that is funny you mention Bill Gates helping the poor. A class mate of my daughter is a Gate Millennium Scholarship Winner. Funny thing is she was also NHS president who was caught for plagiarism but it was swept under the rug by the school system and given a second chance because they did not want the fact that they kicked a minority out of NHS to hit the media, etc. The school teachers were set to replace her as NHS president but the principal over ruled it after getting heat from central office.

She obtained the Gates scholarship by submitting on her paperwork that she is the child of single unemployed mother. What she did not state is that her dad is noted physician here who 100% supports the family and basically provides them with an upper middle class lifestyle.

This child has totally played the system. She is very good at test taking but otherwise is a intelligent as a piece of cardboard.

Instead of everybody grappling for a skinny piece of a stale old pie, can we just make more pies?

That is to say, REALLY make Michigan an attractive place to do business. Not just time-release band-aids on bad policies. I mean truly scare the beejesus out of Texas [[where I now live), Tennessee, etc. Sorry to say, but Michigan has a reputation of being pro-labor and anti-business, to the point of running businesses out of town. What business wants to relocate to that environment? We used to have so many small businesses in Detroit; it's become a nightmare just to start one now.

BTW: Laugh at Mississippi if you want, but they're laughing at "y'all" all the way to the bank. Biloxi is the hot new vacation destination in the South. Their slot machines are loose and their beaches are beautiful. We went there in 2013 and they told us they got fed up with the good-old-boy way of doing nothing and elected pro-business candidates. I was there in 1996 and what a difference!

I think that the public's taste for redistribution waxes and wanes along a spectrum:

Who thinks we should give food to the hungry?
Money for food to the hungry [[food stamps)?
Money for living expenses to the poor?
Money to the poor to use however they'd like?

What's interesting is that there was a research novel I read in college that argued that the most efficient program was just to give money to the poor [[which is correct, on an economic basis), because we'd avoid the cost of all the government bureaucracy that goes along with heavily-regulated programs. But it's clear that is the least palatable, politically anyway.

Nothing is ever going to be done about this and other topics but more jaw-jacking, so it's all a moot point. Greed is here to stay.

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Originally Posted by BankruptcyGuy

I think that the public's taste for redistribution waxes and wanes along a spectrum:

Who thinks we should give food to the hungry?
Money for food to the hungry [[food stamps)?
Money for living expenses to the poor?
Money to the poor to use however they'd like?

What's interesting is that there was a research novel I read in college that argued that the most efficient program was just to give money to the poor [[which is correct, on an economic basis), because we'd avoid the cost of all the government bureaucracy that goes along with heavily-regulated programs. But it's clear that is the least palatable, politically anyway.

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In total agreement. I don't know that it's politically palatable. I do know that it's bureaucratically palatable.

There is a whole lotta people making money because of the poor. Think of it existing all across the spectrum from Government Bureaucracy, Walmarts to the Medical Industry and beyond.

Then you got the worst of the worst, the finance/insurance industry taking advantage of the poor.

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Originally Posted by BankruptcyGuy

I think that the public's taste for redistribution waxes and wanes along a spectrum:

Who thinks we should give food to the hungry?
Money for food to the hungry [[food stamps)?
Money for living expenses to the poor?
Money to the poor to use however they'd like?

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What we have seen over the last 30 or so years has been the largest wealth redistribution in history - from the working classes and poor to the top 1%. It is time to justly redistribute said wealth.

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Originally Posted by Dan Wesson

In total agreement. I don't know that it's politically palatable. I do know that it's bureaucratically palatable.

There is a whole lotta people making money because of the poor. Think of it existing all across the spectrum from Government Bureaucracy, Walmarts to the Medical Industry and beyond.

Then you got the worst of the worst, the finance/insurance industry taking advantage of the poor.

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I agree, but also recall reading that the more important unintended consequence of Johnson's Great Society program wasn't the actual fruit of the project -- but that the project itself significantly created the American black middle class by bureaucratic employment. Like the Space Program of the 60s. Not much gained by being on the Moon. Lots gained by the effort of going there.

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Originally Posted by kathy2trips

Instead of everybody grappling for a skinny piece of a stale old pie, can we just make more pies?

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I'll agree with that as the preferred outcome, but what's the best way to make that happen?

Republicans have slashed business taxes, passed RTW, gutted public services, raised taxes on lower and middle-income people, and what's the result? Pretty meh job growth [[accounted for by an improving national economy increasing car sales), no flood of new businesses into the state, and a deteriorating physical environment.

What else needs to be done? Eliminate public schools? Privatize the highways? Abolish DEQ and MIOSHA? Take the UAW leadership out back, line them against a wall, and have them shot?

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Originally Posted by Not In MI

^ that is funny you mention Bill Gates helping the poor. A class mate of my daughter is a Gate Millennium Scholarship Winner. Funny thing is she was also NHS president who was caught for plagiarism but it was swept under the rug by the school system and given a second chance because they did not want the fact that they kicked a minority out of NHS to hit the media, etc. The school teachers were set to replace her as NHS president but the principal over ruled it after getting heat from central office.

She obtained the Gates scholarship by submitting on her paperwork that she is the child of single unemployed mother. What she did not state is that her dad is noted physician here who 100% supports the family and basically provides them with an upper middle class lifestyle.

This child has totally played the system. She is very good at test taking but otherwise is a intelligent as a piece of cardboard.

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Yet when the third richest man in the state, worth more than $3 BILLION plays the system to get a $240 MILLION subsidy for his new arena, he's called a shrewd business person.

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Originally Posted by Hermod

And in 2014, all of the legislators who voted for the bill were turned out of office in a massive landslide as the working poor, lower income earners, and pensioners retaliated?

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No. Because those darn poor people did a lousy job with with their PACs and corporate contributions.

We must take from the poor to fix our crappy roads. Well this weekend I got caught up in some repairs on the Lodge. Apparently they're replacing some pieces of concrete between Meyers and I94.
Is it just me, or didn't we as taxpayers just pay a lot of money to have this freeway totally rebuilt just 4 or 5 years ago? Is this the quality of work we're paying for? No wonder our roads always suck. And our funding is always insufficient.

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Originally Posted by downtownguy

Yet when the third richest man in the state, worth more than $3 BILLION plays the system to get a $240 MILLION subsidy for his new arena, he's called a shrewd business person.

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Few conservatives would seem to call it what it is - WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION. When the funds are redistributed UP, its "investment."

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Originally Posted by kathy2trips

Instead of everybody grappling for a skinny piece of a stale old pie, can we just make more pies?

That is to say, REALLY make Michigan an attractive place to do business. Not just time-release band-aids on bad policies. I mean truly scare the beejesus out of Texas [[where I now live), Tennessee, etc. Sorry to say, but Michigan has a reputation of being pro-labor and anti-business, to the point of running businesses out of town. What business wants to relocate to that environment? We used to have so many small businesses in Detroit; it's become a nightmare just to start one now.

BTW: Laugh at Mississippi if you want, but they're laughing at "y'all" all the way to the bank. Biloxi is the hot new vacation destination in the South. Their slot machines are loose and their beaches are beautiful. We went there in 2013 and they told us they got fed up with the good-old-boy way of doing nothing and elected pro-business candidates. I was there in 1996 and what a difference!

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I wonder how Mississippi would fare if they didn't hoover up so much in federal dollars? One of the many "tax hating" red states that are addicted to federal funds - getting $2.34 back for every $1 sent to D.C.

http://wallethub.com/edu/states-most...vernment/2700/

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Originally Posted by downtownguy

Yet when the third richest man in the state, worth more than $3 BILLION plays the system to get a $240 MILLION subsidy for his new arena, he's called a shrewd business person.

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Don't blame the business person. That is a shrewd move.

Blame the government. They have no business granting tax abatements whatsoever to anyone. They should be banned 100% everywhere for everyone, including non-profits.

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Originally Posted by kathy2trips

Instead of everybody grappling for a skinny piece of a stale old pie, can we just make more pies?

That is to say, REALLY make Michigan an attractive place to do business. Not just time-release band-aids on bad policies. I mean truly scare the beejesus out of Texas [[where I now live), Tennessee, etc. Sorry to say, but Michigan has a reputation of being pro-labor and anti-business, to the point of running businesses out of town. What business wants to relocate to that environment? We used to have so many small businesses in Detroit; it's become a nightmare just to start one now.

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Kathy is spot on right here. It is a very competitive world, whether you like it or not that's just the way it is. Corporations and businesses equal jobs. If you chase them out of the state they will take their jobs and go where they are wanted and other states want those jobs badly so either compete or lose the jobs, simple as that. Seems to me that it should be obvious to anyone that has lived here for a while that the direct result of job loss is devestating.

Back to the topic of the earned income credit, it is nothing but a patch to a FUBAR personal tax system in this state. A needed patch to some folks but still a temporary patch that can always be messed with. What makes little sense to me is that needed tax reform for business was executed and nothing is being done on the personal tax system Michigan uses. It's so bad that on the proposal to hike the sales tax last May even the Governor said "this wasn't my first choice" and the rest of the politicians said "this is crap legislation but it is the best we will get". How stupid can they be? Fix the personal tax system just like you did the business tax, idiots.

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Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast

Don't worry, it will all trickle down.

My partner and I have actually talked about spending a big chunk of the summer in Michigan, but for reasons such as the political climate we have decided to spend more of it elsewhere.

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Oh my, oh my! The political climate is too much to take! You act like this is Caracas and the embassy is on fire. If there's anything I'm totally unaware of when I'm summer vacationing, it's the political climate. You take a newspaper to the beach?

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Originally Posted by Kevgoblue

We must take from the poor to fix our crappy roads. Well this weekend I got caught up in some repairs on the Lodge. Apparently they're replacing some pieces of concrete between Meyers and I94.
Is it just me, or didn't we as taxpayers just pay a lot of money to have this freeway totally rebuilt just 4 or 5 years ago? Is this the quality of work we're paying for? No wonder our roads always suck. And our funding is always insufficient.

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I don't know why more isn't said about the quality of repairs / rebuilding done to the roads around here for the last 40 years. The fix the same roads every few years. To me, it's unbelievable.

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Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Don't blame the business person. That is a shrewd move.

Blame the government. They have no business granting tax abatements whatsoever to anyone. They should be banned 100% everywhere for everyone, including non-profits.

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Sad but true. It's completely legal. They are just taking advantage of the law that is there as much as a working stiff with kids claiming the EIC.

It does however beg the broader question of big money influence in creating those laws and corporate welfare agencies. The little guy has very few and far less powerful advocates. That explains why the outcry over the proposed ending of the film credit in the same bill is so much louder.

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Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Kathy is spot on right here. It is a very competitive world, whether you like it or not that's just the way it is. ...

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The 'inequality' racket is more about jealousy than economics. Many don't understand that you can increase the number of 'pies'. So instead they complain about how many pies someone else has baked. Better to get baking. Detroit really could stand to learn this.

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Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Back to the topic of the earned income credit, it is nothing but a patch to a FUBAR personal tax system in this state. ...

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EITC is a fine method for income redistribution. Probably the best. Its a minimum wage that doesn't benefit the wealthy working retirees with pension income. I don't understand your resistance. Of course I'm sure the tax system could be improved too. But that doesn't mean EITC is a bad idea.

You might want to do more reading on 'negative income taxes'. It seems much better to me than thousands of overlapping and confusing entitlements.

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Originally Posted by MikeM

Oh my, oh my! The political climate is too much to take! You act like this is Caracas and the embassy is on fire. If there's anything I'm totally unaware of when I'm summer vacationing, it's the political climate. You take a newspaper to the beach?

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Well, when your vacation plans go awry when you show up to check into your b&b or cottage rental and they refuse to rent the reserved accommodations AND try to charge you the cancellation fee because you're two men sharing "single" accommodations.... you'd pay attention to where you spend your disposable income.

In Michigan and 29 other states, it's perfectly legal to do that and our Governor and legislature just doubled down on what levels of state sanctioned discrimination gay people can be subjected to here. Just sayin...people notice.

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Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast

I wonder how Mississippi would fare if they didn't hoover up so much in federal dollars? One of the many "tax hating" red states that are addicted to federal funds - getting $2.34 back for every $1 sent to D.C.

http://wallethub.com/edu/states-most...vernment/2700/

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They wouldn't fare at all. Mississippi has the lowest GDP of any state in the country.

If that's what Michigan is striving to be [[a non-productive backwater), then I probably should pack my bags now...

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Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Back to the topic of the earned income credit, it is nothing but a patch to a FUBAR personal tax system in this state. A needed patch to some folks but still a temporary patch that can always be messed with. What makes little sense to me is that needed tax reform for business was executed and nothing is being done on the personal tax system Michigan uses. It's so bad that on the proposal to hike the sales tax last May even the Governor said "this wasn't my first choice" and the rest of the politicians said "this is crap legislation but it is the best we will get". How stupid can they be? Fix the personal tax system just like you did the business tax, idiots.

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What would be your suggestions to "fix" the personal tax system [[I guess you mean the state income tax).

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Originally Posted by Kevgoblue

We must take from the poor to fix our crappy roads. Well this weekend I got caught up in some repairs on the Lodge. Apparently they're replacing some pieces of concrete between Meyers and I94. Is it just me, or didn't we as taxpayers just pay a lot of money to have this freeway totally rebuilt just 4 or 5 years ago? Is this the quality of work we're paying for? No wonder our roads always suck. And our funding is always insufficient.

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There's plenty of work going on already without more tax.

Michigan GOP wishes to raise taxes on the poor, eliminating the earned income credit for the working poor, to pay for road repair.
Eliminating the credit "helps ensure a flat and fair system to ensure investment in our state and to ensure that we are growing our economy," said Rep. Aric Nesbitt, R-Lawton. He added that the EITC "is how our state used to do business — handouts, giveaways."
He did not explain the inconsistency of his statement after a billionaire who gamed the system was given a quarter billion dollars to build a hockey arena.
And, they accuse others of "class warfare"!

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Originally Posted by Bobl

... Rep. Aric Nesbitt, R-Lawton ... added that the EITC "is how our state used to do business — handouts, giveaways."
He did not explain the inconsistency of his statement after a billionaire who gamed the system was given a quarter billion dollars to build a hockey arena.
And, they accuse others of "class warfare"!

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https://posterjackcanada.files.wordp...legs.jpg?w=940
Hey! If you look between your legs, EVERYTHING'S UPSIDE DOWN!
So we don't have to be honest!
Kiss my ass, you peons.

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Originally Posted by Bobl

Michigan GOP wishes to raise taxes on the poor, eliminating the earned income credit for the working poor, to pay for road repair.
Eliminating the credit "helps ensure a flat and fair system to ensure investment in our state and to ensure that we are growing our economy," said Rep. Aric Nesbitt, R-Lawton. He added that the EITC "is how our state used to do business — handouts, giveaways."
He did not explain the inconsistency of his statement after a billionaire who gamed the system was given a quarter billion dollars to build a hockey arena.
And, they accuse others of "class warfare"!

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So Nesbitt does not believe in government handouts. I like the EITC, but he doesn't. We disagree. There's room for diversity in our State. He simply has a different opinion about how we should run our government. That does not make him evil. Yet in my opinion, he is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Hermod

What would be your suggestions to "fix" the personal tax system [[I guess you mean the state income tax).

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Yes, I would change the flat individual income tax. I know it is sacred to some but I would argue that in a very large majority of the years since it was instituted in 1967 Michigan has failed to grow its economic base sufficiently in comparison to many other states. But what do I know, maybe the Feds will show up and build all our roads! They did have enough cash to bail out our largest corporation in the state and throw some serious coin at tearing down worthless dangerous abandoned homes. We really should send Thank you cards. Then there's charity. They build the nicest new public places for us like the river walk. And it goes with out saying that our largest city's bankruptcy would have been much worse without the donations from charities. Maybe we don't have to figure out our own problems at all because someone else will step in and handle them for us.

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Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit

Yes, I would change the flat individual income tax. I know it is sacred to some but I would argue that in a very large majority of the years since it was instituted

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Is there still a Michigan "Intangibles Tax" for high earners of dividend and interest income? That adds 3.5% to Mich Inc Tax rate for the wealthy.