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We all knew this day was coming, but it is still pretty surprising how fast it came. At some point pragmatic problem solving needs to reign over ideological purity. And it is necessary on both the extreme right and left. Between City Council approving the water deal and now this column in today's Detroit News, hopefully this is the beginning of being able to tackle the hard stuff in years to come.
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/opi...nley/16278905/
We'd be wise to elect moderates regardless of your political philosophy.
Nolan:Quote:
Imposing the Hastert rule would mimic how Democrat Reid runs the U.S. Senate, which has managed to pass no meaningful legislation in two years.
unfortunately, Republican moderates or virtually extinct. And to the extent not, they cannot survive a primaryQuote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
Today, you are right. Tomorrow maybe not. Sometimes tomorrow comes fast, when you're not watching.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
I had a lot of conservative tendencies, but the gridlock in Washington D.C. has made it so I won't vote for a federal-level republican for the foreseeable future. I usually lean right within Michigan, but if they want to bring the same gridlock politics to Lansing, then I'll just start voting dem on a state level too.
I won't be voting for any incumbents in Rochester Hills over charter violations when it came to an oil and gas recovery contract. Many of those folks in Rochester Hills have state or nation level republican ambitions.
I'm very tired of Tea Party politics where the #1 goal isn't moving the country forward, but to make Obama look bad. It's hurting our country.
The TP candidates will likely win for the state legislature. Snyder will likely be reelected.
Second this, although I don't see that the lockstep left is much better. They're jealous of the TP and wish they could do as well in pushing their initiatives, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by 48307
If Nolan is truly serious about taking on the extremist wing of the Republican Party, he will not endorse David Trott for the Congressional 11th.
Yup. lay down with dogs, wake up with fleas...etc. If Nolan doesn't what Teabaggers in office, stop endorsing the Party that can't win without placating them. Seems like he might be waking up to that problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by gnome
Bailey, I think you've taken the point too far and are exhibiting your progressive bias in an issue that will require the Editor of the Detroit News to possibly make an existential decision.
the Tea Party movement was not started by the News, and there has never been a Tea Party bent to the editorial positions taken by The News.
The News leans center-right, the Freep tilts center-left, the Tea Party teeters on the edge of extremism.
The TEA partiers energized the big GOP gains in Michigan and across the country in the 2010 election while the party of Obama slept through. Republicans found themselves in control of all branches of government in state and promptly cemented it by gerrymandering the house districts.
Then the establishment Republicans woke up with the fleas. It reminds of when the establishment Republicans pandered to the Christian religious right in the 70's and got stuck with ever more extremist candidates at the primary level. Fueled by non-stop Obama-hater rhetoric and codespeak by rightwing radio and cable-heads this meme, which has been floating around the internet, sort of portrays the current the Republican primary-voting majority and the conundrum the party faces.
Attachment 24500
I can hear the big bucks GOP players whining, "Why can't they^ just vote for us then shut up?"
Fine. Except the topic was about the editor of the Detroit News.
you want to really play the flea bag game? The obvious example is the City of Detroit. A bankrupt, structurally dysfunctional, crime ridden Democratic herpes outbreak.
you seriously want to point to an extremist wing as being the totem for an entire political party?
Sure, I'll play all day long Lowell once you concede that the myriad of problems south of 8 Mile is owned by the political Party that has controlled it for 50+ years.
If you think that is an unreasonable position, you might want to consider walking back from your inflammatory inferred accusations that people who don't vote like you are somehow crazy racists who sport sweatshirts imported from looneyville.
I think it exposes either journalistic malpractice or willful partisan hackery to endorse the slate of right wing nutters that Nolan has..especially most recently during the Obama years... and only NOW start writing editorials about a lack of a third/center right option.Quote:
Originally Posted by gnome
The hard right teabaggers are made up out of whole cloth that editors like Nolan wove for them. To now disavow their creation is pretty fucking funny.
Obama hating is a core requirement of the Republican Party. At a national level they'll do ANYTHING possible to make him look bad, even if it means hurting the country.
Now that they've made him such a bad-thing, they try to attach their political opponents to him. Take a look at the governors race, their are tons of commercials running just trying to find reasons to say Schauer and Obama in the same sentence.
Most republican voters are probably much closer to the center than they are to the right extreme, but the right extreme is who gets to pick the primary winners.
For me the choice was simple, stop voting for right-wingers.
Republicans carping about Mr. Obama is not too dissimilar than Democrats going after Mr. Bush. Picking on the opposition's leader is common. Not uncommon. It is to be expected.
if you think it is of a different tone it may be due to being sensitive to minor slights.
Personally, I noticed how common it was to refer to Mr. Bush as the "so-called President" during his terms in office. I count that as my own bias being revealed rather than a concerted effort by an entire group of people conspiring to defame a single individual.
you may recoil when Rush Limbaugh refers to the President as "Barry" or by using the President's middle name. You have to ask why is your nose out of joint? Both names are correct, the issue is that a reprehensible clown says them.
Have you not noticed that certain private individuals have been bankrolling primary challengers to unseat powerful, more moderate GOP members, ala Eric Cantor? The entire GOP shakes in fear of not just the Tea Party, but their private backers who seem to dictate which issues are important and which ones are not. This means you are seeing some traditionally more moderate GOP members taking anti-immigration stances [[even though everyone agrees, we gotta do something), anti-scinetific positions such as "Climate change isn't real!", etc. Those private backers have whipped the crazies into a frenzy and used that threat to force others to go along with their little "screw democracy" project.Quote:
Originally Posted by gnome
And yes, the "political party that controls Detroit" is guilty as hell of screwing up not just left and right, but all over. Someone at the state level should've stood up and said "Hey, get your act together", but they didn't. There is a reason I dislike Michigan's Dem party.
When that extremest wing is driving the agenda of the entire political party, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by gnome
You're confusing the incompetence and corruption of Detroit with the extremism on the GOP side of today. Totally different issues. George Romney, William Milliken or Gerald Ford couldn't possibly be elected in today's GOPQuote:
Originally Posted by gnome
...or Ronald Reagan or Abraham Lincoln.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
As it was pointed out to me while attending the Republican Convention, within the Tea Party there are those who harken to principles of lower taxes and less government regulation whereas others trumpet more crazyville positions about the UN, ChemTrails, Islamic infiltration along with Lizard people.
many of these views have been shared with the Lyndon LaRouch democratic wing.
The Lyndon LaRoucher's never became the defacto leadership like the Ted Cruz types on the right have. That is the key difference and what Nolan is talking about in the last few editorials.Quote:
Originally Posted by gnome
All that bullshit about "small government" and "lower taxes" [[COMPLETELY LEGITIMATE POINTS BTW) is irrelevant. Those issues don't move the needle in today's Republican party primary... Gay marriage, abortion, #benghazi, #irs, and depending on the day and what Obama is doing-- bombing someone immediately without congressional approval...or not bombing them because it's impeachable for POTUS to do so without congressional approval. And then maybe interring and mass deportation of illegal aliens.
The difference Gnome is that the Dems running Detroit were establishment, if incompetent, Dems. It wasn't as if the some leftist black panther wing faction was driving the primary results and saddling the state party their candidates in the general election.
You can't be serious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowell
What the heck was the Shrine all about if it wasn't leftist ideology? It was founded by Warren Evans' maternal uncle who was a well known separatist.
Moreover, you obviously have never been to a Democratic State convention where Detroit based party hacks have been rammed down the gullets of out-state moderate Democrats.
All of that aside, what exactly is this argument about? Nolan Finely writes a piece that spares any love for an extreme branch of an extreme wing of the Republican Party, and you want to disagree with him?
what kind of ignorant double-think are you involved in? "I can't agree with anyone different from me?" Why aren't you patting Nolan on the back for coming around to your line of thinking?
jeeze man.
"extreme branch of an extreme wing"? Or the dominant force?Quote:
Originally Posted by gnome
I'm still laughing at "terrist." :D
It's not that anyone disagrees with him, it's that some of us have seen this as a problem since about 2004. It's noting the irony of Dr. Frankenstein being upset about what his creation has wrought. Finley is upset that those he enabled turned out to be just as crazy as everyone knows they are. Gary Glenn's entire life is dedicated to eliminating gay people from society... he'll couch it in other terms, but really that is the only thing he is concerned about. When Nolan is running a board that shills for a Party that spends more time highlighting its "anti gay" plank in convention than its economic policy planks... you don't get to come back and cry about the type of candidate that gets through a primary.Quote:
Originally Posted by gnome
Really the issue I have with Nolan was he's about 10 years late to this epiphany or he's just terrible at his job. Either way, his recent editorials and his sudden rejection of the Hastert Rule are hardly profiles in courage.
Agree with this completely. There is no comparison between the gridlock intentionally imposed on government by the ideologue wing of the Republican party and the incompetence inflicted on Detroit residents for too many years.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroiterOnTheWestCoast
And there is no equal blame to spread around for the gridlock either. Political compromise is a non-starter for virtually all Republicans since 2008. The willingness of of so many dozens of members of Congress to play along with or outright promote the ideological conceit that Pres. Obama is actually an unpatriotic*, weak, socialist, white hating, incompetent Muslim fool has made this a shameful era in our political history. [[All this despite the reality that Mr. Obama, if he were white, would have been welcomed with open arms by the Eisenhower Republican party.) The playbook for Republicans since 2008 has been that nothing gets done until they can regain the White House. No exception. There is nothing equivalent to what is going on now and the Democrats' conduct during the Bush administration [[including the level of respect accorded the office.)
* The political calculus, hypocrisy and hubris of the patriotism issue was on full display from politicians and media alike last week after Mr. Obama's latte salute to one of his Marine guards. http://www.salon.com/2014/09/26/f_yo...a_controversy/
Why is Nolan Finley eating his babies?
What an assclown. Of course he can't resist the urge to take a baffling snipe at the Democrats in the Senate, you know, just because he can.
He's such a dick. Just like all his Republican shit-for-brain friends. I don't like either party but there is nothing "conservative" or "traditional" about a party where your two choices are some soulless empty suit ready to sell off this country wholesale to Wall Street or some wild-eyed, cross-burning, slobbering, snake-handling, tongue-speaking imbecile. Fuck the Republican Party. It's time for them to go the way of the Know-Nothings and something not completely jacked up to take its place.
Finley is a hack. I hope the worst for him.
Where are the black panther militant types in the party today boss? To some people politicians that break into church choir music during proceedings are the equivalent of the idiot tea baggers, they both just represent the extremes of we will cut off our nose to spite our face and never compromise for the good of the majority.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowell
It's really a bit rich for Finley to be decrying the inability to compromise evident in today's GOP that he has done so much to promote. The Reagan of memory may be Saint Ronnie, but were he alive and a practicing politician today he'd be just another RINO squish.
With you on this one, ABD.Quote:
Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit
Now visiting a black church is the same as being an uncompromising Tea Partier. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Must feel great to have to justify your own ilk by blithely claiming they are inexplicably just as bad as the other side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
Biggest difference: JoAnn Watson was voted out of office while the Tea Bagging Old Men Society is still a very powerful force within the GOP.Quote:
Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit
This is inaccurate. Partisan gridlock has been around for decades. What has virtually disappeared is logrolling--the process of voting for a bill or amendment that you don't like to gain a vote from a colleague on one that you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by swingline
Prior to about ten years ago, that process was completely non-transparent to the public. The internet [[and social media, to a great degree) has provided access to the public to specific voting records on specific amendments or bills in real time. That's provided cannon fodder for idealogues from both sides. You have to run to your base to win a primary [[most of the time).
Not too far from home, recall that Rick Snyder ran against a much weaker candidate in Virg Bernero than the stronger Andy Dillon, because Dillon did not have the ideological purity [[read: unwavering deference to public employee unions) that Bernero had. The concept is not purely a Republican one.
I think what's important is that efforts to create a third party would NOT create a party in the center; they would, like in Europe, create two additional parties, at least: the Tea Party types, and the Occupy types.
Maybe you see equivalence but there isn't. The choir isn't organizing in the primaries to stick the Dems with extremist candidates. They make a lot of noise then sit out the primaries.Quote:
Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit
Lowell, with all due respect, I think you need to step back and look at this from a neutral perspective. Tea Party members do not think their positions are radical either. Where you see extremism, they see common sense. Likewise, some of your opinions are likely considered extremism by those on the right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowell
The label of extremism is powerful and seems to galvanize the base for both parties. The charge of extremism only serves to divide us. No real opinions need to be considered from extremists. Reject them and all they say. Do not listen to their actual opinions on other topics. They are the enemy. They are 'extremists'.
Dysfunctional government is dysfunctional government. I get equally angry when a politician tells me gay marriage is evil the same way I get angry when the US post office wants to run 16 billion in the red annually and yet another politician tries to tell me we need to keep the jobs regardless of the deficit. Stupidity is just stupidity sometimes. Detroit could really benefit from a bunch of gay married people showing up with just one of the billions the post office pisses away every year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowell
Yes, it is common practice to pick on the opposition leader. However, typically it sticks to legitimate issues. Bush was attacked repeatedly over his "Mission Accomplished" statement, the fact it sometimes appeared more like the Cheney Administration, and a variety of other topically related issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by gnome
The difference with how the Tea Party has continually attacked Obama is that they've gone beyond topical issues and have gone to great lengths to "manufacture rage" over anything and everything they can think of.
How many different versions of his birth certificate did he have to show and STILL people don't believe he's legitimate?
I still don't know what the hell a "terrorist fist bump" is, but apparently Ann Coulter and Michelle Malkin do.
It is a part of the job as President to travel across the globe visiting allies and trade partners in an official capacity...until Obama takes office and the Tea Party attacked his first official trip as being a "waste of money".
Damn near every modern President has been a golfer [[hell, Eisenhower had a tree named after him at Augusta). Yet somehow it only becomes a controversy now? Why is that?
Bush spent more days of his administration away from the White House on vacation of any modern President, yet every time he leaves town he gets HAMMERED by the Right.
At some point it has to get exhausting being constantly pissed off about made up controversies. It also makes people look like the Boy Who Cried Wolf.
I feel exactly the same way, except in reverse. It just feels different when its your guy on the receiving end.Quote:
Originally Posted by EL Jimbo
I see absolutely no difference except partisan leanings on this. The we're being attacked is just a campaign to bind your loyalty.
The majority of the criticisms aimed at Bush from the Left were about substance. The problem with what the Right has done since 2008 is that any criticisms and attacks aimed at Obama that were of substance are lost in the wash with the wave of other made up outrages that are based on stupidity and only aimed at breeding mistrust in our government.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
Just yesterday, Steve Doocey [[sp?) of Fox News was interviewing the head of the CDC about Ebola. During that interview, he essentially asked the head of the CDC why we should believe anything he says because he's part of the Obama Administration.
Who does that? Nobody would have ever asked a question like that to a past administration. It was inappropriate, unprofessional, and dangerous. But I'm sure in the right-wing blogosphere it successfully fueled more mistrust because now we shouldn't believe the CDC now either.
Wait. Did Steve Doocy unwittingly confess that Faux News chooses to interview people who shouldn't be believed?! :rolleyes: Too funny!Quote:
Originally Posted by EL Jimbo
You've heard the refrain I'm sure, "It's Obama's fault"Quote:
Originally Posted by EL Jimbo
Whine. Whine. Whine. Your substance is someone else's attack. And your attack is someone else's substance.Quote:
Originally Posted by EL Jimbo
The only post in this thread worth anything was BGuy's.
So wait, lying about the main reasons you are using to invade a country is not substance? Vacationing more than any other modern president is not a valid complaint? Right wing complaints about the amount of Obama executive orders, when GWB used quite a bit more? Warrantless wiretapping is just freedom? Turning basically any situation into a new something-gate was a thing The Progressive America Ruiners did to George W Bush, right? Like Benghazi-gate? and IRS-gate? and Obama-Holding-A-Latte-gate? and Obama's birth certificate? And questioning Obama's loyalty to America?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch
Seriously, Obama has had it much worse than GWB did. He can't do anything without Daryl Issa or Mitch McConnell or John Boehner opening an investigation or voting to impeach him or trying to repeal the ACA. GWB at least had cooperation from his opposition when he was willing to compromise.
Editors note - I'm not saying Obama is any better than GWB. In fact, I think they are on the same tier of crappy leader.
I don't think W was much better than Obama -- but I'll take a leader who makes some mistakes while ACTING over one who COMTEMPLATES everything -- but we have elections to settle.Quote:
Originally Posted by motz
You see a lie in Iraq. I see delusional bureaucratic group-think. The difference doesn't matter when you lost loved ones to either Saddam or US fire. I see the lie as a political talking point with a basis in truth. IRS-gate seems about the same to me. I doubt Obama instructed Lois Lerner to chase conservative groups. But chase they did. Lie? No. Bureaucratic group-think? Probably. But in the end, the result was unfair and unacceptable. Its all perspective. I just don't see that Obama is getting it any worse that President Snyder will next term. After all, he lied about why he pushed Detroit to bankruptcy, didn't he?