That's nice; the guy Rick Snyder picked to collect taxes in Detroit doesn't pay them...this is just too much http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130316/METRO01/303160352/ … …
That's nice; the guy Rick Snyder picked to collect taxes in Detroit doesn't pay them...this is just too much http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130316/METRO01/303160352/ … …
Let's not jump to conclusions here.
I am amazed that the "Nerd" didn't do his homework. To put a man in charge of a city with financial problems who can't pay his own bills is ludicrious. Snyder needs to get rid of him and find someone else.
Is there anyone out there with any integrity?
Eh, you realize that's the problem, Kevyn Orr was never elected?
Of course I do. Do you realize he was put in place because the people that WERE elected just can't seem to get their act together?
and so putting in a man that doesn't pay his taxes.... Never mind, you're too sharp for me.
In a world without any gray area, true, he's a man that "doesn't pay taxes." But to me it sounds like an honest oversight. I mean, he paid $16,000 the day after he found out. Did the liens disrupt his ability to restructure Chrysler?
He claims he is going to take care of it after the fact. How many of us have forgotten to pay taxes when they are due? He got caught, hense "he's taking care of it", otherwise, he would still owe if no one found out.
I've been trying to understand what taxes I am suppose to pay as someone who recently hired a nanny, and I've been told by many people that a large number of people don't realize or actively ignore paying taxes on childcare. The government treats you like an employer when you hire a nanny, but most people don't think of it this way.
As Homer Simpson says,'Doh!"
Just as Pugh's inability to handle his finances contributed to my decision to not vote for him, Orr's tax issue raises a flag, also. Hard to believe he "forgot" or it "slipped through the cracks" considering he had four liens placed on his home since 2009. Seems like that would have been a pretty good reminder.
I'm sure the Gov. would have known that if you chose a Democrat it's to be expected; it goes with the territory. We've just had four years of a Treasury Secretary who came into office as a Tax Delinquent. Rules that Democrats administer are not supposed to apply to them; their job is to extract money from people that have it and give it to people that say they don't have it. It's called Re-Distribution; and if they consider taking from themselves and giving it back as a zero sum transaction who's to argue over a trifle?. I like what I've seen so far of Kevyn Orr and I'm sure he's up to subtle ways to extract money from Detroit Citizens and Bondholders alike. Check what he did for/to Chrysler Bondholders to achieve his signature achievement. He is a good choice for EFM.
Shouldnt the correct title for this thread be "Yet Another Democrat Appointed to a Position Of Setting Economic Policy Is Found to Not Have Paid Their Taxes"
If you're going to play this game for elected and appointed officials, I think you'll find that we'll run out of Democrats who didn't pay their taxes before we run out of Republicans who cheated on their wives, hired prostitutes, etc.
Yep, just what I expected from the "I'll back Snyder at any cost as long as he goes after those animals in Detroit" group. The fact of the matter is this isn't on Orr as much as it's on Snyder. The vetting process never existed. You can try to pretend that it was a 4 yr oversight or however you want to rationalize it, but they weren't trotting this guy out on every media in the state and country not to sell him. This is a disaster for Snyder, and he knows it. Now I'm interested to see if the lap dog journalists in this town go after Snyder for being so sloppy and arrogant. Either way it looks bad!
Ha! Great world we live in.
But seriously folks, if we spend our days chasing from office anyone who's not perfect, we'll have no one serving.
Back to this issue... its likely he doesn't do his own taxes. When you run your own business and do consulting, taxes are monstrously complex. Mistakes are to be expected. Now I'm not excusing serial, active evasion of taxes. But this is a sideshow, amusing only to those who seek to attack the idea of an EFM.
RapBrown. See Post #20.
I receive a correspondence from the State of Michigan in December 2012 stating I failed to file a tax return for. The year 2008. but I did file and also received a refund for. The year 2008, The next year [[2009) which is standard for a refund I received a form 1099-G from the State of Michigan showing a detailed refund to me for the year 2008. of $..., OO.
Now if somehow I were elected hypothetically speaking financial manager the media and their riders would run me out of town without given me benefit of doubt, so why jump to conclusions. We do not live in a perfect world.
I worked with a guy who got a letter from the IRS informing him he had not filed in three years. How did that happen? His father is an accountant and insists on doing his taxes. His father's reaction? "I guess I forgot. I'll take care of it." Said it without any surprise. My bet is that when someone else does your taxes this sort of thing happens all the time.
Good thing no republicans ever have tax issues. I mean, Mitt Romney obviously lived in his son's basement apartment & paid his Massachusetts taxes perfectly fine. No chance that he lived in any of the homes he owned while filing as a Massachusetts resident [[and voting there too. good thing there was no voting fraud committed!) But then again, I bet you would run out of republicans who cheat on their taxes before you would run out of democrats that ride unicorns while robbing 7-11's with bazookas that shoot rainbows of clean energy, or whatever. We get it. All democrats are scum, all republicans are saints.
No kidding.
This is fucking unacceptable.
I don't see the need to extend this man or the one who appointed him any sort of benefit-of-the-doubt, mulligan or credit.
It IS fun to watch smartest man in the room types like Snyder get egg right on their smug face though.
As for the media, it's funny Snyder and co were doing the rounds on "black" radio Friday, when he acted like they didn't exist for the entirety of his administration.
People can draw whatever conclusions they want, but this doesn't seem like a big deal to me. As someone else said, the more complicated your finances, the harder it is to keep your taxes straight. In a situation like this, you end up paying the taxes, plus interest, plus a penalty, so it isn't very advantageous. If there were reason to think he was actually trying to evade the taxes, that would be more serious, but I haven't seen anyone claiming that, or any evidence of it. This whole employment tax problem arose because he was paying his household help legally, not under-the-table.
To wit:
Hey, if Obama thinks it's OK if the US Treasury Secretary had a little tax issue, it must be OK for a city EM.Quote:
On November 24, 2008, President-elect Barack Obama announced his intention to nominate Geithner to be Treasury Secretary.[28][29] During his confirmation, it was disclosed that Geithner had not paid $35,000 in Social Security and Medicare payroll taxes from 2001 through 2004 while working for the International Monetary Fund.[30]
The IMF, as an international agency, did not withhold payroll taxes, but instead reimbursed the usual employer responsibility of these taxes to employees. Geithner received the reimbursements and paid the amounts received to the government, but had not paid the remaining half which would normally have been withheld from his pay. The issue, as well as other errors relating to past deductions and expenses, were noted during a 2006 audit by the Internal Revenue Service[31][32][33][34]
Geithner subsequently paid the additional taxes owed,[35] and was charged $15,000 interest, but was not fined for late payment.[36] In a statement to the Senate Finance Committee, Geithner called the tax issues "careless," "avoidable," and "unintentional" errors.[35] Geithner testified that he used software to prepare his 2001 return, but that the tax errors were his own responsibility.[37][38]
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...7y_1-26-09.jpg http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.2...gnify-clip.png
Geithner was sworn in as Treasury Secretary on January 26, 2009
On January 26, 2009, the U.S. Senate confirmed Geithner's appointment by a vote of 60–34.[39][40] Geithner was sworn in as Treasury Secretary by Vice President Joe Biden and witnessed by President Barack Obama.[41]
Who said that Geithner's tax problems were "OK"? No one I knew. Back to Orr, the guy appears to have a track record of doing this. If you don't think it's a big deal, your entitled to your opinion. But no one is being fooled by pretending this is an oversight or a one time problem. As far as "jumping to conclusions", Orr admitted that day that he needs to pay.
jtf1972 said: " We get it. All democrats are scum, all republicans are saints."
The way I get it is ALL politicians are assholes. That better?
oops.
If this is the 'Olympics of Restructuring' then why does this vaguely feel like a gold medal favorite who promised a world record tested positive just before the big games started?
$16K worth of liens is small stuff for a man of his means and there certainly was nothing illegal. He will survive this and it will be forgotten, but another skeleton in the closet could spell trouble. You know what they say about people in glass houses...
Honestly, I don't get it. Forget about Snyder. Forget about Orr. Forget about Watson, Kwame, Coleman, Cavanaugh.
Dude hires a firm to do his taxes. It's brought to his attention that unbeknownst to him, there are unemployment taxes due to one of his employees and a lien has been placed on his home. Less than 12 hours later, he pays the bill and takes care of it.
It's careless and probably humiliating. But it's not a crime. If he was trying to get out of paying it, there are a whole lot better ways than having someone put a lien on your home.
I'm less concerned that he made the mistake. What's telling his how he acted once it was brought to his attention. He is going to make some mistakes in the process of straightening out our books. If he is attentive then as he was now, then I'll chalk that up as a win.
I've made my fair share of stupid mistakes in my life. Forgot to pay my car registration because they sent the renewal to an old address. I sent the State of Michigan tax payment in the same envelope as the federal one a few years ago.
In the first case, I got pulled over in the parking lot behind St. John Hospital [[in a parking lot???) because my tags were expired. In the second case, I got a letter from the State of Michigan. In both cases I paid the penalty and took care of it.
I don't care if you're a Democrat or a Republican or even a Black Panther. I may disagree with your policy preferences or political ideology. But that has nothing to do with whether or not you accidentally left your garage door open, or whether you wrote the wrong year on a check.
Orr probably has a huge nest egg. The tax lien is a drop in the bucket to what he is worth. I wish people would not get all riled up over this matter. He says he will pay, has in the past. Sometimes this stuff has to catch up to them for the people with big bucks to ante up. If some really bad stuff from his past shows up, I will be concerned. Like I said in another thread , due to nannygate issues in the DC area, residents of Maryland, DC and VA, can expect scrutiny over taxes. I want to give Orr a chance.
I am not happy that we've arrive at the Detroit EFM status, but former Governor Jennifer Granholm and the giddy media therein engaged in the same introductory carnival showcase of her passing of mandates, and appointments of EFM's Art Blackwell of Highland Park and Robert Bobb of DPS et al....
The anointed-and-appointed 'smartest' people, in the room [[behind podiums, special news segments, applicable 'black' radio, church guests speakers etc.) implementing broad sweeping decisions, hand-shaking and back-slapping all the way predates Snyder.
It just seemed somehow less annoying, then, to some...
I discussed this "Lien" thing with a friend @ dinner, since I know nothing about it, and he told me this story. Friends of his live next door to a property owner who refused to keep a section of his land mowed. This in turn drew weeds & seeds onto their property, dumping, animals, etc. They took it upon themselves to keep his property mowed, but ended up putting a lien for services rendered on his property. Since he wasn't notified of the lien, he has no idea, and won't until he goes to sell his property. I'm still not sure exactly how liens and notifications work, but unless you can prove that Orr willfully, and with knowledge, refused to pay his taxes, I'm willing to give him a benefit of a doubt. Maybe some of the more legally knowledgeable members can chime in.
http://www.freep.com/article/20130317/NEWS01/303170193/
Problem solved.
You are notified of liens. And this wasn't one year, it was over four years—two of which he had paid, so don’t tell me he wasn’t ever aware of this issue. And just because someone is a highly paid corporate lawyer doesn't mean they are cash rich. Those 6 and even 7 figure salaries get blown on million dollar homes, cars, a boat, education, childcare, and various other 1% lifestyle decisions. Make more, spend more.
It's a well known scheme that people hold off on paying their tax bills until the IRS is knocking on their door.
The theory behind it is instead of sending the money to the government immediately, they can use it to double their profit through private investment during that time span.
The "I had no idea" line is typical lawyer jargon.
Whether or not you agree that's cheating on your taxes is all semantics.
Some of these guys like Orr have a financial manager, CPA to handle the day to day routine stuff like their own personal business. Maybe it is his wife. Maybe he did know. He has paid the debt. Successful people don't sweat the small stuff. I am not a person that would take a 16 grand lien lightly if it involved me. When someone like Orr is dealing in large amounts of money, 16 grand is small change. I think the citizens in this area need to put a proper perspective on the tax lien situation.
This is a non-issue. Wake me up when his credit score is under 700. Then you'll have a story.
Thanks DetroitNerd much appreciated
Not everyone in the money biz or law firms are boy scouts. Many are not. I highly doubt a qualified absolutely perfect human being with no baggage is going to be available as an EFM to get the ball rolling here. Orr has liens, he pays them. A few years late. He plays the game as most in the money business . Are the liens a nice item on a resume? Of course not. Years ago, a relative of mine owned a business chain, he had liens on his property for whatever reason. It is part of business sometimes. Get over it, move on. Let Orr get started. If he does not work, at least we tried something. Because what we have now is a mess that can no longer go on. Bing and the Clowncil can not agree on anything.
Wow... So say this guy isn't lying, and he wasn't aware of the taxes. [[From what I have read they have already been paid in full) Then what? I was notified in Jan 2012 that I owed almost $3000 in taxes from 2009 due to an error in my tax return [[that I didn't prepare) and that they removed school credit deductions. Now I fought this because while I did owe them some money, it wasn't $3000. After figuring it out, it was only $400. Does that make me a tax cheat? Maybe this is his situation, maybe it isn't, but it's funny that people in Detroit let local people slide [[Kwame for years, Pugh, Waters ect...) but one thing on this guy and it's headline news. It's only because Snyder appointed him....
After just locking up a former mayor for financial malfeasance I'm surprised so many people here are willing to give Orr the benefit of the doubt without considering his responses to the allegations. First, he acknowledged that he does have an outside accountant do his taxes, and it's not his wife:
Quote:
The Washington, D.C., bankruptcy attorney blamed the problems on an outside accountant hired to file his tax returns, said Sara Wurfel, a Snyder spokeswoman.
OK, so how's that outside accountant doing for ya?
Quote:
A lien for $7,022 in unemployment taxes for the 2008 tax year was entered on July 17, 2009, and satisfied on Aug. 20, 2010. Another for $9,409 in income taxes for the 2008 tax year against Orr and his wife, Dr. Donna Neale, was entered on Aug. 11, 2010, and satisfied on Oct. 3, 2011.
If it happened twice [[for unemployment taxes and for income taxes), a) did you think about retaining another accountant? or, b) are you complicit in putting off paying these taxes until the state of Maryland tracks you down? If he's just playing that game, as some have pointed out that many people do, fine, just admit it! But he claims that the most recent unpaid taxes and subsequent liens are "surprising to me, to be honest."
To think that he didn't know about the past delinquencies is laughable. Either he hands over his checkbook to this accountant with no oversight so that he could eventually pay up on his prior overdue taxes, or he has a poor memory of writing those checks in the amount of $7,022 in 2010 and $9,409 in 2011.
Forgive my cynicism, but IMHO even a person of reasonable wealth would likely remember writing checks in that amount for overdue taxes.
This isn't an oversight, it's a pattern, and while it's nice he paid up so quickly after it came out in the paper, the fact that he passes it off like a one time brain fart makes me question his integrity.
One more thing, aren't liens on property a matter of public record? If indeed Snyder & Co. did vet this guy, how could they have overlooked the liens?
I just wonder if it were someone like Alan Mullaly, would the reactions be the same? Would you ask him to step down from FoMoCo ?
Why should Orr get a pass? He's being embraced by the same crowd that backed Kwame the first time he ran for Mayor and again for his second term even after it was clear that he was damaged goods. This same crowd pushed Bing for Mayor telling us that a businessman would fix the city even as some of us predicted that Bing would be a failure. Based on that track record, I don't see any reason to take the recommendations of the movers and shakers without a heavy dose of skepticism.
See where we are in 6 months . IMO, if Orr does fall on his face, Snyder will make a move. I think Snyder wants another term. Does not want a failure in the D with the EFM. Do you still want the status quo? My gosh, the turkeys in Detroit could not run a high school bookstore, let alone a city. Anything is an improvement. I would almost accept Dennis Rodman as an EFM due to his new found foreign policy expertise. Okay, now I am really kidding.
Are you talking about the bankruptcy that was "foisted" upon the people of Detroit by the last 50 years of incompetent Detroit government? Please feel free to present your plan for leading us out of this mess. Or @ least point to what steps were being taken, let's say in the last year, to avert the current situation, by the City leaders?
This guy is THE Financial Manager extraordinaire who is going to win the Olympics [[in his words) of Detroit's recovery and you think he didn't know what his own financial manager was doing for him! To a salaried person that loses half his salaryto Fed/State taxes, FICA, Medicare and other stoppages $16k per year is not small stuff not to be sweated - its the gravy. How do you think successful people become successful?
If he truly didn't know about it then he's not the man for the job.
As a former IRS revenue agent [[the folks who do tax audits), the business taxes he skipped out on are not montrously complex. From everything I read about this, he neglected to file & pay the employer unemployment taxes for staff he hired. These weren't done for 4 years running. When you have a paid tax preparer as the article states, you still have the responsibility yourself to review your return before signing & filing it. I'd think that the attorney in him would know better to sign something without reading it. Apparently, he proved me wrong. Maybe the financial genius should be preparing his own return.
I question how he claims to not know of any liens. The IRS sends all their notices to THE TAXPAYER DIRECTLY, NOT THEIR PAID PREPARER. They will send scads of notices too. If it's a joint return notices get sent to each spouse separately. The placing of a lien on your property comes at the end of the collection process, so he would've gotten a whole bunch of certified mail about it before it happened. IMO there's no way he didn't know about it.
Failure to file & failure to pay taxes are violations of the Internal Revenue Code and are misdemeanors. Therefore, IT IS A CRIME. Does the IRS prosecute? It depends on the case, but generally no if you work with them to resolve outstanding issues. However, if you don't, it can be elevated to a felony. They really don't want to jail you, just get the tax money.
For those on this board who are saying Orr should get "pass due to an oversight", I have to disagree with you. This isn't a matter that's very complex or an isolated incident that fell through the cracks, especially with it happening 4 years in a row.
Jackie, to an attorney, one with financial experience, Orr could see this as a manageable game played with the IRS. Not knowing the extent of Orr's personal holdings and wealth, plus I am not a tax expert, I can understand where citizens would have a problem understanding the liens. You as a former IRS employee know how these things work. Is there some advantage to waiting to pay on a lien? Was there some legislation pending to alter the taxation process of the nanny system? Again, I don't know of a perfect person that was available for the EFM here. Maybe this is the best available at this time. Orr does have some good education and resume. Guys like Orr are players, this is the way they do things it looks like. Most guys in the money biz are players. Still an improvement over what we have at face value. Now I am expecting someone to throw my words of "face value" at me.
Jackie, Thanx for your insight as an experienced ISR agent. It certainly doesn't put things in a positive light for both Mr. Orr, or Mr. Snyder. THAT being said, I have no intention of making any long term plans for living in the COD, or MI, because I just don't see any solution in site with the managerial incompetency, or fiscal irresponsibility.
jackie,
he worked for a firm with about ~2500 attorneys -- made up of probably about 1000 partners and 1500 associates -- and probably a good 2000+ support staff, guessing by what i see on their nalp forms.
would i be incorrect in assuming that the lien was for his pro rata share, as a partner, for the ~3,500 employees that were employed by the ~1,000 partners, firm-wide?
if so, and from what i know from discussing this stuff with partners at my old firm [[also a large firm), this falls squarely on the accounting and payroll departments at jones day. typically these departments "take care of" everything for each member of the partnership, serve as the paid preparer, and often, by agreement of each partner, the return address for each of their returns "c/o" the firm's accounting/payroll department.
essentially, it's an in-house perk the same way that your firm's trusts and estates department will help you put your will together, or your real estate department will help negotiate the sale or purchase of your property, gratis. provided this is the case, as is usual at most big firms, i wouldn't be surprised if some doofus [[or a few doofuses) in the accounting department is making the case for his or her job right now.
and given how large and unwieldy jones day is as a firm bureaucracy, i would not be surprised, and actually almost expect, that [[1) he didn't know of it and [[2) paid it as soon as it came to his attention [[and [[3) someone or many someones is getting an absolute asschewing in accounting/payroll).
What Eber is saying here seems like a possible explanation. Guys like Orr, Snyder, nerds and lawyers of finance play the game at high stakes. A lot higher than me or most citizens of the area, the average "Joe". The residents of Michigan have been kicked around , abused by many elected officials for a long time. Many just don't trust anyone and are "shell shocked". My feelings are that we have to move forward, start to straighten out fiscally our money woes and work with what we now have. The clowncil needed a watchdog and a process to stop them , clowncil is simply incompetent. Bing has given up, saw the writing on the wall. Bing could not accomplish anything with the clowncil.
According to The Detroit News article, the liens have been filed for unpaid unemployment and income taxes.
Quote:
[[Orr) has two outstanding liens on his $1 million home in Chevy Chase, Md., for $16,000 in unemployment taxes in 2010 and 2011. Two other liens of more than $16,000 in unemployment and income taxes were satisfied in 2010 and 2011, records show.
From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...#ixzz2Nuc3pX3P
Well, then that would fit more with EBW's assessment. I would also go with EBW that this whole thing was handed off to someone to deal with and he did not know or if he did know, knew it was a minor issue and he'd take care of it when he needed to. Which apparently he's now done, in full.
The article says he stated the taxes were prepared by an outside accountant. I interpret this to mean it was prepared by someone outside his firm. Again, I can't understand how he'd have no knowledge of it considering there are 4 tax years in question. The IRS will send a separate envelope to address each tax year. If it's a joint return, there will also be a separate envelope sent to each spouse. These are sent to the taxpayer's home, not their business. I can't believe he didn't know about it considering the deluge of notices the IRS would be sending.
There is never an advantage to waiting to pay a lien. Once you have a lien placed you have the potential to lose your propety. Plus, fines & interest are continuing to accumulate. To my knowledge, there was no pending legislation to affect these taxes during those tax years.
Um..well, because it's not the IRS?
Quote:
"There was apparently an oversight related to a childcare provider unemployment insurance payment," Wurfel wrote in an email. "Immediately upon learning of the potential issue just today, he took action at once to look into and resolve with the state of Maryland."
....
Frost and another Maryland tax attorney, Jeffrey Katz, disagreed on whether it's common for subjects of liens to not know about them. Frost said Maryland typically sends separate warning and notification letters about liens. Katz said many who are hit with them don't know liens were placed until they try to renew driver's licenses and learn about them.
Katz and Frost agreed that Maryland is zealous about tax collection and its use of liens.
Hey all, its alright to disagree with the idea of an EFM, but its not so alright to take one single incident and make an assumption about the man's character.
Not trying to quote Jesus here, but is anyone here without sin, I mean without any issues with any taxing authority or government agency?
There's been a lot of taking this issue and turning it into an indictment of anyone who makes a lot of money and assumptions about how they all avoid taxes.
geez.
This was an embarrassing episode for Orr but frankly, if he can get the job done in an honest and effective manner, then that's the main thing. From first indications it would appear he's certainly up to the task. There's also no hint of corruption like half the current crew. And he's far more qualified than Bing and the 9 dwarves.
Look, whether you agree with the way the EFM/EM process came about or not, we are going to be joined at the hip with this person for the next 18 months and we don't have time for a do-over. That Orr was appointed by one man and not elected by the majority of the people should raise the bar on the level of transparency we expect. That is why it blows my mind that so many people are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Screw that!
He and Snyder's office have given dubious explanations for this "oversight". The fact that this is not the first time Orr has had liens for unpaid taxes -- yet it comes up again -- is why I cannot accept his "surprise" when the media uncovers the latest delinquencies. For Snyder, his office says Orr was fully vetted, but a tax lien -- a matter of public record -- escapes their scrutiny? Puhleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze!
For the $275,000 salary the EM will collect annually, and because of the stakes at hand, I think they absolutely should meet the highest bar of honesty, transparency and integrity. I am willing to forgive and forget an honest mistake. Paying the piper right after the media uncovers your "mistake" is not enough. How hard would it be to sit in front of the media, answer their questions, and spell out the specifics of this debt? What exactly is to for? How did it come to be? And why did it happen again? Don't just stand there with a sheepish grin and say "I'm embarrased."
If some of the naysayers are expecting someone of Warren Buffet or Rev Billy Graham's character or caliber, forget it. We are not going to get such a person. I have been reading the posts at the freep and the News during the day. The posts are hideous . I sure hope Orr gets something done. Quiets the people out for blood. I am tired of all the bickering, I would like to see the D make a comeback.
There will be more to come. This is what you get when you try to impose your will with such force after the voters had already struck down your shitty, over-bearing law. You bring your little trained seal in, put him in a little suit, make him smile, and then brag about how all of this can be done in "three to six months" and you think that bullshit hubris - and on Day One, no less - isn't going to catch up with you?
Welcome to Detroit, Mr. Orr. The state could have gone with a more strongly enforced consent agreement [[the city had already done the vast majority of what was asked of it, BTW), but greed won't allow it. Now, you're going to put in an EM who'll be lucky to make it a year. This is going to get messy very quickly, and it's the hubris of the governor that facilitated this. There will be a at least one court in this state that's either going to strike down the entire concept of emergency management, and at the very least, at least one court that will challenge the appointment of this particular EM. You can count on it.
Detroit belongs in bankruptcy court; it does not belong in the hands of a government with dubious political and financial motivations and intentions. Follow the bouncing ball. It will end up at the doorstep of the DWSD.
Snyder had enough of our city council. He had to do something. Consent agreement would never work. Not with the current players. There will be legal wrangling by all the politicians. It is a mess. I still think Orr will be here for a while.
I'm not trying to indict the guy. I'm just saying that for someone who Snyder touts as financially & legally exceptional & brilliant, he should've known about the liens. I don't buy into his assertion that he didn't. I don't want to hear excuses being made for him. The perception is that if you can't handle your finances, how can you handle anyone else's?
Fair enough, Jackie5. I agree that excuses needn't be made. But the perception that only those with zero flaws are suitable for public office is a very dangerous standard. What we're doing here is taking one single aspect of Mr. Orr's world and using it to form judgements about the man.
I don't think you're understanding... these are not federal tax liens. They were State of Maryland for taxes owed to the state of Maryland.
The article itself gets a bit of conflicting opinion on the tenacity of Maryland and how they place the liens.Quote:
I'm not trying to indict the guy. I'm just saying that for someone who Snyder touts as financially & legally exceptional & brilliant, he should've known about the liens. I don't buy into his assertion that he didn't. I don't want to hear excuses being made for him. The perception is that if you can't handle your finances, how can you handle anyone else's?
Most importantly, that I think is really being lost in this, the man immediately upon being advised of the lien, paid them. he didn't try to litigate the matter in the public...ranting about tornado damage or having to take a pay cut and not being able to afford his obligations, or it was all a mistake and he didn't owe anything.... he paid in full, within hours. Full stop.
Now, you may disagree that he "didn't know" they were there. Fine. apparently that is up for debate. Maybe he was playing games and only paid when he absolutely had to. Whatever. End of the day, the liens were paid before any action was taken to foreclose on them.
"That's an awful lot of taxes for a baby sitter. Are you sure he's not running a day care?" joked Maryland tax attorney Jeffrey Katz. http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...RO01/303190341
from the same article; "It's extremely embarrassing. It just makes you wonder, what are you thinking?" Howard Bragman, a Flint native and vice chairman of Reputation.com, an Internet privacy firm, said the failure of Snyder's office to search Orr's name inonline Maryland court records"is akin to malpractice."
I briefly knew a high-end nanny, [[$$$$$$$$$$$$!), @ a club I once belonged to. Besides the usual daily stuff, she was expected to go on trips, [[vacations, business trips, Holidays etc.) and take care of the kids. She would disapear for 2 weeks, 6 weeks, a month. [[that's how we found out what she did). This was a career, with references, etc., and not just a "baby-sitting" job. People like Orr, [[his wife's a surgeon too), don't shop Orbit for discounts. I'm wondering if "perks" came into play having to be claimned as "income".
From the tone of the people that don't want to believe Orr about the taxes, I don't think they will ever believe it was just business. I am willing to wait and see. If another shoe drops about the guy, I might reconsider my stance. I try to be flexible in my thinking on most matters concerning so called scandals. It could also be some of the naysayers don't like Snyder, love the clowncil and just want to grind Orr up anyway. Some may be honest in their negative feelings. Everyone brings their life experiences to the forum here. It is a mixed bag to be sure. I still say the tax liens are no big deal. It is not uncommon for wealthy people in that area to go thru this sort of thing. I am about done on this subject.
^^ When Orr's name and bio were leaked, I was quite impressed with his pedigree. So, for me at least, this isn't about loving the council or grinding up Orr. It is, however, all about him and the governor passing this off as an oversight, when it appears to be more than that. If he said it was "just business" as you call it, I would have appreciated his honesty and candor, but I still would have misgivings about his role as EFM. Consider this. There are people in Detroit that do the same thing with their property taxes. What kind of an example is he to these people to start paying taxes on time?