Do People Hate Detroit?

I have posted a number of threads on this forum, trying to take a positive perspective in my views and in many instances all I get is negative feedback.
Detroit gets more than its share of negative media coverage.
Even many Detroiters talk negatively about the city and not just among other Detroiters but to whoever is listening.
Now, I'll be the first to admit that Detroit has and has had its share of problems but so has many other cities.
I heard the many nasty comments made about our Mayor Bing, when prior to his election so many people thought that he would do a great job. Now, many of those same people hate him.
We all know that great things are happening in our city, new development is everywhere, people are moving here, our housing market has gotten better, and despite the financial problems city employees still go to work and do their best given the circumstances.
So, I was wondering could more naysayers make a resolution to think and say more positive things in 2013.
If you were wondering, I didn't go anywhere, trying to finish my film, hoping for a early 2013 release, The Great Detroit coming soon.:p

It's going to happen to every mayor of this city. It became clear when Dennis Archer was ran out of town. You have a city that's mostly on welfare. The people have no skills to get any sort of decent paying job. What is a mayor to do? If we bring jobs to the city, the population doesn't qualify for said jobs. Don't worry, when/if Mike Duggan gets elected, the city will still be in poverty and the city will still have a ridiculous crime rate and people will be bitching once again at the mayor. Its been going on for decades. It's time to face facts and manage expectations. Detroit is always going to have high poverty. It's always going to have high crime. It's population is never going to be 1.8 million again. What we need to do is manage the crime, bring some wealth back to the city, and try to slow the population loss.

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Originally Posted by Shollin

You have a city that's mostly on welfare. The people have no skills to get any sort of decent paying job. What is a mayor to do? If we bring jobs to the city, the population doesn't qualify for said jobs. Don't worry, when/if Mike Duggan gets elected, the city will still be in poverty and the city will still have a ridiculous crime rate and people will be bitching once again at the mayor. Its been going on for decades. It's time to face facts and manage expectations. Detroit is always going to have high poverty. It's always going to have high crime. It's population is never going to be 1.8 million again. What we need to do is manage the crime, bring some wealth back to the city, and try to slow the population loss.

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Do you think that the Detroiters are dumber, less motivated and more violent than in any other city?

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Originally Posted by Strong

Do you think that the Detroiters are dumber, less motivated and more violent than in any other city?

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Is that not part of your responsibility to educate and motivate which in turn decreases the violence,when your film is ready will you show it at no charge to those less fortunate or to those who would not be able to purchase it ,will it be a motivational film to show those that they can rise above and have faith and let them know that it is not easy and there are alternatives to the violence?

There are facts and graphs and statistics all out there not in dispute the question is who does what to stem the tide?

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Originally Posted by Strong

I have posted a number of threads on this forum, trying to take a positive perspective in my views and in many instances all I get is negative feedback...............trying to finish my film, hoping for a early 2013 release, The Great Detroit coming soon.:p

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Strong, I note that I have become acquainted with you at several events in Detroit, and have found you to be a nice man. I will take this opportunity that you have herein afforded me to say that yes, some people on this board do hate Detroit. Some hate Black People, and in particular, the Black people of Detroit. Those are the racists, who appear to be in the minority here.

But most of these posters are not racists, and they love Detroit, or what they remember about Detroit, or what they desire for Detroit. They do not hate Detroit, but hate what it has become for any number of reasons. They love the city in their own way, even from afar in the suburbs.

But what I am pretty sure that most of the folks here hate is a SHILLER. Someone who posts on message boards with continual, self-promoting mentions of products or projects. This is one of the reasons, I am certain, that responses to your posts about Detroit are often tepid, at best.

That being said, I wish to add this: For years I was the moderator for a couple of significant international online forums [[unrelated to Detroit) and shillers were immediately and unapologetically removed from posting - Game Over. As you know, I am a writer and blogger, but I do not feel it appropriate to unduly promote my current work or projects on these boards. In fact, I've never mentioned either. You have been very given wide berth here, as far as I can see.

If you are a part of this online group, without continually promoting endeavors of your own - and if it is a good production - your work will attract an audience, some of which will be from this Detroit Yes community. They will be the first to spread the word about its attributes. But to mention your film in most of your posts is disrespectful. Should you not do so, there might be more positive responses to your thoughts on the city that you post.

Back to your other issues; yes, there is often a refusal or inability of some here to see "positive" aspects of Detroit life. I, for one, am always on a mission to fight against the "invisibility" of non-pathological Detroit life - but one cannot be a Pollyanna about this city, either.

My comments to you are given with the best of intentions, with respect for your project and, most importantly, for the good of Detroit Yes. For shilling, whether open or surreptitious, whether innocently on-topic or not, if not restricted, can be the death of an online community.

Absolutely.

IRL and online people take sheer glee in the misery of both COD and it's citizens.

Other cities get empathy and understanding where Detroit gets scorn.

Seems there's a fair share of people out there in the burbs who hate any part of Detroit that's not a sports venue or a casino. My mom asked my sister yet again if I was ever gonna move out to the suburbs. Not bloody likely, and I don't know why she's so obsessed with this.

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Originally Posted by KJ5

Not bloody likely, and I don't know why she's so obsessed with this.

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What will the neighbors say?

Hate is a pretty strong word to describe my feelings about a city. I don't hate Detroit. What I hate is what Detroit has become. I hate that I lived in a city where I no longer felt safe. I hate that the people I voted for to make decisions that directly affected the quality of my life in Detroit turned out to be opportunists who only cared about the quality of their own lives. I hate that the services that I paid taxes for were not there when I needed them. I love Detroit but the quality of my life became more important than my love for Detroit and in early 2012 I left not just Detroit but the State of Michigan.

^^^ I hear you MMTM! The bold-faced justification of crime and corruption fueling the lack of safety bothers me greatly. And it's a crab in the barrel result. In some cases stolen goods just move from person to person, stolen, re-sold, stolen again, same people, or someone knowing of it... 'no snitchin' of course.

Sadly I do think some believe this to be so.

And BTW I don't particularly mind you promoting things you do. Others here promote what they are doing and involved in. I am happy however you are doing it less in the third-person narrative [[shiller) style...:cool:...

Are you partnering with an existing film company regarding your upcoming film... are you engaging any of the educational institutions or resources?

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Originally Posted by Strong

Do you think that the Detroiters are dumber, less motivated and more violent than in any other city?

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That's a tall order in a way... a 100% free showing that is. But not impossible if a partnership of some kind can be made. Even as tight as finances are there remain mentoring programs, and entities still out there reaching out to the community by way of film, arts, media and information - integrated in the creative, education and faith communities of the city. Sustainable, successful outreach with results are born of strategic partnerships which take time to grow and cultivate.

A certain level of cynicism is ok to me as there are cranks out there too - indeed there are many starts, but few finishes [[for a myriad of reasons). I try to engage where I can but I check a person out carefully before I invest my time.

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Originally Posted by Richard

Is that not part of your responsibility to educate and motivate which in turn decreases the violence,when your film is ready will you show it at no charge to those less fortunate or to those who would not be able to purchase it ,will it be a motivational film to show those that they can rise above and have faith and let them know that it is not easy and there are alternatives to the violence?

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If you don't mind me asking, what state did you go to, and do you miss Detroit/Michigan?

I used to laugh when I was a kid about Coleman Young saying Detroit was surrounded by "hostile suburbs."

But, I gotta say, 25 years later, after a lot of city living, yes, Detroit is surrounded by a lot of white racists who hate the city, its residents and rage against it as a kind of pastime.

I also think that, deep down, they know that they bear some responsibility for the way Detroit is. Rage is often shame disguised by anger.

This state of affairs is widely known and little discussed. Mention it and white crypto-racists start having fits because their narrative says that racism is over. It ended when Barack Obama was elected, or when Reagan authorized Martin Luther King Day, or somewhere in between, when the first black character appeared on the TV sitcom "Friends."

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Originally Posted by carolcb

If you don't mind me asking, what state did you go to, and do you miss Detroit/Michigan?

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If this question is directed to me I moved to the beautiful state of New Mexico the Land of Enchantment. There are so many things I miss about Detroit and Michigan but there are more things that I don't miss. But when I sit on my front porch in Albuquerque and look at this beautiful sunset [[picture below) I can honestly say I don't miss Detroit or Michigan that much.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

I used to laugh when I was a kid about Coleman Young saying Detroit was surrounded by "hostile suburbs."

But, I gotta say, 25 years later, after a lot of city living, yes, Detroit is surrounded by a lot of white racists who hate the city, its residents and rage against it as a kind of pastime.

I also think that, deep down, they know that they bear some responsibility for the way Detroit is. Rage is often shame disguised by anger.

This state of affairs is widely known and little discussed. Mention it and white crypto-racists start having fits because their narrative says that racism is over. It ended when Barack Obama was elected, or when Reagan authorized Martin Luther King Day, or somewhere in between, when the first black character appeared on the TV sitcom "Friends."

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LOL. Everyone wants to throw around the race card. All of Detroit's problems is racism. It's like a buzzword around here. People left Detroit and have hostility towards Detroit because of the epic crime and that crime is spilling over the borders and into the suburbs. And no, deep down they don't bare responsibility. People in Detroit are every bit as hostile towards suburbanites or outsiders. What responsibility does the suburbanites bare? I'm tired of seeing these criminals be made out to victims of the white man. Part of Detroit's problem is everyone thinks everything is racism.

Wow, that is a nice view. Thank you for answering. I still want to move back, and I have been gone forever. I honestly think people are nicer in Michigan; yesh, I know that sounds strange, but that is the way I feel about it. Back to that living in the past thing. I wish you the best in Albuquerque. My son spent two years in Santa Fe and it was beautiful.

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Originally Posted by carolcb

Wow, that is a nice view. Thank you for answering. I still want to move back, and I have been gone forever. I honestly think people are nicer in Michigan; yesh, I know that sounds strange, but that is the way I feel about it. Back to that living in the past thing. I wish you the best in Albuquerque. My son spent two years in Santa Fe and it was beautiful.

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Thank you. I started out in Sante Fe for three months and moved to Albuquerque in July.

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Originally Posted by MidTownMs

Thank you. I started out in Sante Fe for three months and moved to Albuquerque in July.

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Are you an artist, MidTownMs?

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Originally Posted by Shollin

LOL. Everyone wants to throw around the race card.

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See how this works? When you want to discuss racism, somebody is right there to barge in, laughing, about how what you're really doing is playing the "race card." Never mind that "playing the race card" has been, primarily, historically, a term for white people appealing to the racism of other white people. No, now anytime you want to have a frank discussion of racism in the United States, no sooner have you uttered your intentions before some chortling, red-faced joker sidles up and starts prefacing his remarks by saying, "Now, I know this isn't politically correct but ..." haw haw haw

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Originally Posted by Shollin

All of Detroit's problems is racism.

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See, nobody said that. This is called taking somebody's point [["There is a lot of white racism in metro Detroit suburbs") and trying to twist it into something that's easier to argue against [["All of Detroit's problems is [sic] racism").

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Originally Posted by Shollin

It's like a buzzword around here.

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Oh, yes. It's like a buzzword when you don't take it seriously, or when you intend to derail other people's intention to take the subject seriously and look at it.

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Originally Posted by Shollin

People left Detroit and have hostility towards Detroit because of the epic crime and that crime is spilling over the borders and into the suburbs.

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First of all, this is a blanket generalization that cannot be true.

Second, to say that racism played NO role in people leaving Detroit and choosing to live in all-white suburbs is ridiculous. Of course a lot of the people who've left Detroit have been racists. Does it matter whether they're the hood-wearing, I'm-going-to-burn-a-cross-on-your-lawn kind or the kind who simply loathes and fears living around black people?

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Originally Posted by Shollin

And no, deep down they don't bare responsibility.

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You're right there. They don't bare responsibility. They bear it. You have a struggling city that's 3/4 white and pretty well off and 1/4 black and not-so-well off. The white people take their resources, their income, their taxes, their institutions, their churches, their neighborhood watches, their significant capital, pick it up, and move beyond the city line. Now the city has to exist without the benefit of their resources, income, taxes, institutions, churches, neighborhood watches and capital. What did they think would happen? If residents of choice leave a city, they know damn well they're leaving it to people who can't properly afford to care for it. That's just simple economics. So that's why I imagine a lot of older people who left Detroit in the 1960s vent so much rage. They look at their old neighborhood and can't blame themselves, so they blame the "other." Anger disguises their shame and turns it into white rage.

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Originally Posted by Shollin

People in Detroit are every bit as hostile towards suburbanites or outsiders.

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Is that so? What's your evidence for that? A lot of the time it's just crossed signals I find, not hostility. From both sides.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

You're right there. They don't bare responsibility. They bear it. You have a struggling city that's 3/4 white and pretty well off and 1/4 black and not-so-well off. The white people take their resources, their income, their taxes, their institutions, their churches, their neighborhood watches, their significant capital, pick it up, and move beyond the city line. Now the city has to exist without the benefit of their resources, income, taxes, institutions, churches, neighborhood watches and capital. What did they think would happen? If residents of choice leave a city, they know damn well they're leaving it to people who can't properly afford to care for it. That's just simple economics. So that's why I imagine a lot of older people who left Detroit in the 1960s vent so much rage. They look at their old neighborhood and can't blame themselves, so they blame the "other." Anger disguises their shame and turns it into white rage.
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Ok, so you've covered the octo & septuagenarians that actually did live in the CoD and could reasonably be found to be complicit in Detroit's demise by removing their capital from the equation, but there are at least two generations of suburban dwellers that have never lived in Detroit.

Do the kids and grand-kids bear the sins of the parents?

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

See how this works? When you want to discuss racism, somebody is right there to barge in, laughing, about how what you're really doing is playing the "race card." Never mind that "playing the race card" has been, primarily, historically, a term for white people appealing to the racism of other white people. No, now anytime you want to have a frank discussion of racism in the United States, no sooner have you uttered your intentions before some chortling, red-faced joker sidles up and starts prefacing his remarks by saying, "Now, I know this isn't politically correct but ..." haw haw haw



See, nobody said that. This is called taking somebody's point [["There is a lot of white racism in metro Detroit suburbs") and trying to twist it into something that's easier to argue against [["All of Detroit's problems is [sic] racism").



Oh, yes. It's like a buzzword when you don't take it seriously, or when you intend to derail other people's intention to take the subject seriously and look at it.



First of all, this is a blanket generalization that cannot be true.

Second, to say that racism played NO role in people leaving Detroit and choosing to live in all-white suburbs is ridiculous. Of course a lot of the people who've left Detroit have been racists. Does it matter whether they're the hood-wearing, I'm-going-to-burn-a-cross-on-your-lawn kind or the kind who simply loathes and fears living around black people?



You're right there. They don't bare responsibility. They bear it. You have a struggling city that's 3/4 white and pretty well off and 1/4 black and not-so-well off. The white people take their resources, their income, their taxes, their institutions, their churches, their neighborhood watches, their significant capital, pick it up, and move beyond the city line. Now the city has to exist without the benefit of their resources, income, taxes, institutions, churches, neighborhood watches and capital. What did they think would happen? If residents of choice leave a city, they know damn well they're leaving it to people who can't properly afford to care for it. That's just simple economics. So that's why I imagine a lot of older people who left Detroit in the 1960s vent so much rage. They look at their old neighborhood and can't blame themselves, so they blame the "other." Anger disguises their shame and turns it into white rage.



Is that so? What's your evidence for that? A lot of the time it's just crossed signals I find, not hostility. From both sides.

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Wait, so you talk about blanket statements, and yet you say and I quote "Detroit is surrounded by a lot of white racists who hate the city, its residents and rage against it as a kind of pastime" Isnt that the pot calling the kettle black or is that racist? You also go on to say of course a lot of people have left Detroit are racists. You throw around these blanket statements without any evidence and require me to show evidence? You make accusation after accusation of white people being racist. Keep playing the victim. Blacks in Detroit in the 60's earned higher wages and had a higher home ownership than most other major cities. Welcome to the 60's. Income inequality and segregation was the think back then. You think Detroit was the only city to lose population? All cities from Chicago to New York to Philadelphia to Cleveland to Pittsburgh to Minneapolis to St Louis to Boston to Milwaukee all lost population as the migration to suburbs took full flight by the 60's. People who left Detroit for better employment and less crime I suppose are racist to you?

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Originally Posted by bailey

Ok, so you've covered the octo & septuagenarians that actually did live in the CoD and could reasonably be found to be complicit in Detroit's demise by removing their capital from the equation, but there are at least two generations of suburban dwellers that have never lived in Detroit.

Do the kids and grand-kids bear the sins of the parents?

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I dunno? Are they racists or not?

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

I dunno? Are they racists or not?

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Seems like many here will judge them as being so by virtue of their continued residence in the 'burbs.

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Originally Posted by Shollin

Wait, so you talk about blanket statements, and yet you say and I quote "Detroit is surrounded by a lot of white racists who hate the city, its residents and rage against it as a kind of pastime" Isnt that the pot calling the kettle black or is that racist?

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No. Because it's true. A blanket statement would be: "Detroit is surrounded EXCLUSIVELY BY white racists, all of whom hate the city... " Can you tell the difference between saying there are white racists in the suburbs [[a is a subset of b) and all suburban whites are racists [[a=b)?

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Originally Posted by Shollin

You also go on to say of course a lot of people have left Detroit are racists. You throw around these blanket statements without any evidence and require me to show evidence? You make accusation after accusation of white people being racist.

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Well, yeah. Sure. I've met them. I've talked with them. I have met enough white suburban people saying racist things to conclude that many suburban whites are racists -- N-bomb-dropping, black-joke-telling, prejudice-spreading racists. And, in response to that, what is YOUR evidence that urban blacks are racist?

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Originally Posted by Shollin

Keep playing the victim.

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Not sure how I can do that, Shollin. I'm white. I'm a WHITE man. How the fuck is talking frankly about racism PLAYING THE VICTIM?

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Originally Posted by Shollin

Blacks in Detroit in the 60's earned higher wages and had a higher home ownership than most other major cities. Welcome to the 60's. Income inequality and segregation was the think back then. You think Detroit was the only city to lose population? All cities from Chicago to New York to Philadelphia to Cleveland to Pittsburgh to Minneapolis to St Louis to Boston to Milwaukee all lost population as the migration to suburbs took full flight by the 60's. People who left Detroit for better employment and less crime I suppose are racist to you?

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Talk about moving heaven and earth to change a subject. Rather than admit that there is such a thing as a white racist in Detroit's suburbs, you'd rather pile on all this data? Why? Before you turn this into a class project, Shollin, I already know there are white racists in the Detroit suburbs. You know why?

It's because I've met them.

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Originally Posted by bailey

Seems like many here will judge them as being so by virtue of their continued residence in the 'burbs.

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You know, the minute you say there are white racists in metro Detroit, some white people seem to hear, instead, "All white residents of metro Detroit are racist." I've never seen anything like it. Not only do some people consistently misinterpret discussions of white racism, they then squarely blame those who WOULD discuss it based on their own misinterpretations of it ...

Well how can you argue with anecdotal evidence like i've met them? Nearly 4 million people live in the metro Detroit suburbs but because Detroitnerd has a met a few racists in the suburbs, he can throw around these blanket statements as fact. Gee, let me play this game. As a white person living in Harper Woods who mingled with black Detroit residents, I can tell you most of Detroit is hostile towards the suburbs and white people. Now where does that leave us? I know there are black racist in Detroit. You know why? Becuase I've met them.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Are you an artist, MidTownMs?

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That's a very good question because many artists move to New Mexico. But no I'm not an artist. But it's easy to see how the beauty of New Mexico would appeal to an artist.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

See how this works? When you want to discuss racism, somebody is right there to barge in, laughing, about how what you're really doing is playing the "race card." Never mind that "playing the race card" has been, primarily, historically, a term for white people appealing to the racism of other white people. No, now anytime you want to have a frank discussion of racism in the United States, no sooner have you uttered your intentions before some chortling, red-faced joker sidles up and starts prefacing his remarks by saying, "Now, I know this isn't politically correct but ..." haw haw haw



See, nobody said that. This is called taking somebody's point [["There is a lot of white racism in metro Detroit suburbs") and trying to twist it into something that's easier to argue against [["All of Detroit's problems is [sic] racism").



Oh, yes. It's like a buzzword when you don't take it seriously, or when you intend to derail other people's intention to take the subject seriously and look at it.



First of all, this is a blanket generalization that cannot be true.

Second, to say that racism played NO role in people leaving Detroit and choosing to live in all-white suburbs is ridiculous. Of course a lot of the people who've left Detroit have been racists. Does it matter whether they're the hood-wearing, I'm-going-to-burn-a-cross-on-your-lawn kind or the kind who simply loathes and fears living around black people?



You're right there. They don't bare responsibility. They bear it. You have a struggling city that's 3/4 white and pretty well off and 1/4 black and not-so-well off. The white people take their resources, their income, their taxes, their institutions, their churches, their neighborhood watches, their significant capital, pick it up, and move beyond the city line. Now the city has to exist without the benefit of their resources, income, taxes, institutions, churches, neighborhood watches and capital. What did they think would happen? If residents of choice leave a city, they know damn well they're leaving it to people who can't properly afford to care for it. That's just simple economics. So that's why I imagine a lot of older people who left Detroit in the 1960s vent so much rage. They look at their old neighborhood and can't blame themselves, so they blame the "other." Anger disguises their shame and turns it into white rage.



Is that so? What's your evidence for that? A lot of the time it's just crossed signals I find, not hostility. From both sides.

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Here we go.....

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Originally Posted by Shollin

Well how can you argue with anecdotal evidence like i've met them? Nearly 4 million people live in the metro Detroit suburbs but because Detroitnerd has a met a few racists in the suburbs, he can throw around these blanket statements as fact.

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Shollin, seriously. What's your argument?

One the one hand, you would seem to be arguing that white people in metro Detroit are relatively immune to racism.

On the other hand, you're saying that black people in Detroit are racist and hate white people.

Is that your argument?

Honky Tonk: Tell me about it. All you have to do is bring up white racism in the context of metro Detroit and the usual suspects all come out.

"What racism? A guy would have to be a racist at heart to think there was such racism! White people aren't racist! Black people are racist! Why are you playing the race card?"

Anyway, thanks for the "Not this BS again" meme. That's one of my favorites.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Honky Tonk: Tell me about it. All you have to do is bring up white racism in the context of metro Detroit and the usual suspects all come out.

"What racism? A guy would have to be a racist at heart to think there was such racism! White people aren't racist! Black people are racist! Why are you playing the race card?"

Anyway, thanks for the "Not this BS again" meme. That's one of my favorites.

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I don't think anyone has ever denied that there are racists in metro Detroit, however, what many seem to obsessively posit here is that there is no justification for living in the suburbs OTHER than racism.

When people say they prefer walk-able neighborhoods with low crime and fast response from PD/FD/City services...it's alleged what they really mean is they don't want to live near black people. Good Schools? Don't want their kid going to school with black people. Don't unequivocally support "mass transit" proposals no matter how stupid and destined to fail? Just a racist suburbanite that doesn't want Detroiters to be able to leave Detroit. Question the support through tax subsidies for Museums/zoos/exhibition halls that perhaps one's community has little use for or is geographically remote from? Well, just a bunch of mouth breathing racists who hate culture...and black people.

I mean the schtick is pretty tired.

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Originally Posted by bailey

I don't think anyone has ever denied that there are racists in metro Detroit, however, what many seem to obsessively posit here is that there is no justification for living in the suburbs OTHER than racism.

When people say they prefer walk-able neighborhoods with low crime and fast response from PD/FD/City services...it's alleged what they really mean is they don't want to live near black people. Good Schools? Don't want their kid going to school with black people. Don't unequivocally support "mass transit" proposals no matter how stupid and destined to fail? Just a racist suburbanite that doesn't want Detroiters to be able to leave Detroit. Question the support through tax subsidies for Museums/zoos/exhibition hals that perhaps one's community has little use for or is geographically remote from? Well, just a bunch of mouth breathing racists who hate culture...and black people.

I mean the shtick is pretty tired.

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Please see Post # 29.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Shollin, seriously. What's your argument?

One the one hand, you would seem to be arguing that white people in metro Detroit are relatively immune to racism.

On the other hand, you're saying that black people in Detroit are racist and hate white people.

Is that your argument?

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The post you quoted was me trying to sort out your anecdotal evidence that a lot of people in the suburbs are racist and hostile towards Detroit.

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Originally Posted by bailey

I don't think anyone has ever denied that there are racists in metro Detroit...

I mean the schtick is pretty tired.

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I don't think anyone has ever denied walk-able neighborhoods with low crime.I don't think anyone has ever denied they don't want to live near black people.I don't think anyone has ever denied Good Schools. I don't think anyone has ever denied "mass transit". I don't think anyone has ever denied how stupid...I don't think anyone has ever denied that it is destined to fail. I don't think anyone has ever denied a racist suburbanite. I don't think anyone has ever denied to be able to leave Detroit. I don't think anyone has ever denied support through tax subsidies. I don't think anyone has ever denied halls that perhaps one's community has little use for. I don't think anyone has ever denied a bunch of mouth breathing racists. I don't think anyone has ever denied culture. I don't think anyone has ever denied black people.

I mean the schtick is pretty tired.

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Originally Posted by bailey

I don't think anyone has ever denied that there are racists in metro Detroit, however, what many seem to obsessively posit here is that there is no justification for living in the suburbs OTHER than racism.

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Nah. I've been pretty emphatic on that. I think, perusing this thread, you'll find I've said that several times. What can I say? Sometimes a motherfucker won't listen?

But then, if y'all didn't intentionally misunderstand it so BADLY, how would you be able to then sculpt it into the "schtick" that you then label as tired? :)

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Originally Posted by Shollin

The post you quoted was me trying to sort out your anecdotal evidence that a lot of people in the suburbs are racist and hostile towards Detroit.

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But are those your genuine feelings, Shollin? That white suburbanites are almost completely nonracist? And that black people in Detroit are largely racist and loathe whites? Just trying to get a handle on this.

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

But are those your genuine feelings, Shollin? That white suburbanites are almost completely nonracist? And that black people in Detroit are largely racist and loathe whites? Just trying to get a handle on this.

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My argument is that people hate Detroit because of the epic crime rate, the lack of basic services, and the ruined neighborhoods.

Conversely as a Detroiter, you are doing a bang up job confirming that Detroiters despise suburbanites and blame them for the decline of Detroit.

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Originally Posted by Shollin

My argument is that people hate Detroit because of the epic crime rate, the lack of basic services, and the ruined neighborhoods.

Conversely as a Detroiter, you are doing a bang up job confirming that Detroiters despise suburbanites and blame them for the decline of Detroit.

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Yeah, you know, you didn't answer my questions. Is it true that you believe that most white people in the suburbs aren't racist and that many black people in the city are?

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Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Yeah, you know, you didn't answer my questions. Is it true that you believe that most white people in the suburbs aren't racist and that many black people in the city are?

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Are you trying to put words in my mouth? For every "racist" in the suburbs, there's at least one in Detroit. Short answer, yes.

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Originally Posted by Shollin

Are you trying to put words in my mouth? For every "racist" in the suburbs, there's at least one in Detroit. Short answer, yes.

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No, I'm just trying to get a clarification on your earlier statements.

So you think that racism is more than five times as prevalent among blacks in the city as among whites in the suburbs?

Who said five times? Before I answer, how about you put a percentage on the white suburbanites who are racist since we are playing this game.

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Originally Posted by Shollin

Who said five times? Before I answer, how about you put a percentage on the white suburbanites who are racist since we are playing this game.

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Well, it stands to reason.

There are 700,000 residents in Detroit. At least 600,000 of them are black.

There are 4,280,000 residents of suburban Detroit. At least 4,000,000 of them are white.

So, if for every urban black racist there is a suburban racist counterpart, it would figure that black racism is at least five times more concentrated in the city and five times the total percentage of white racists in the suburbs.

OK, I believe I understand how you feel now.

You didn't answer my question.

And this brief intermission was brought to you originally by Chester Powers and sung by the Youngbloods.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53XyCbIJGKY

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Originally Posted by Richard

And this brief intermission was brought to you originally by Chester Powers and sung by the Youngbloods.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53XyCbIJGKY

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Awesome. Love it, Richard. :)

The problem with being accused of being in denial is that it's equally frustrating whether or not you actually are. "I fervently deny that I am in denial!" :cool:

The lady doth protest too much, methinks could be directed at anyone but I'm directing it at no one here. It just seems an appropriate principle to note in any passionate discussion.

I'm a bit confused about the title of this thread, Do people hate Detroit? Is this a question for people that live in Detroit, people that live in the surrounding area,or just people in general that live in other parts of the country or world? Reading the thread it sounds like it's questioning people in the surrounding area. Just curious, not sure I understand the premise of the question. Can you enlighten me?

It just seems like Strong dropped a vague question out there and then didn't follow up on it. I guess that if Detroiters think that people around the country hate them, I have a few views on that. But if it's a local thing, I guess I'm out.

I don't people hate Detroit, rather people hate what Detroit has become. The vast majority on this forum knew a Detroit that was always spoken in the same breath as cities such as New York and Chicago. To see what it has become now would fuel a lot of resentment. I mean, many Detroiters have to drive through miles of blight everyday where they once lived, walked around, shopped played and to see it all gone in such a short amount of town is devastating.


As far as how people across the country feel about the city, recently I think people feel so sorry for Detroit to the point where it's not evne worth joking about the city any more. People are also wondering what the heck is in Detroit and Michigan's water, given the condition Detroit [[the state's largest city) is in and the legislative actions that have taken place in Lansing.

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Originally Posted by 313WX

...As far as how people across the country feel about the city, recently I think people feel so sorry for Detroit to the point where it's not even worth joking about the city any more....

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I think there's a lot of truth to that bolded phrase. At some point we all identify with each other and so can no longer stand to watch the suffering of others.

No. People, who have not lost their humanity, do not hate Detroit.

Real constructive thread you started here, Strong. Let's just keep these arguments raging for generations to come!

As an outsider, I do not hate Detroit. I have not been there so I can't really hate it. I think a lot of people look at it with either pity or contempt, though. Pity that it's so rundown in a lot of places. Contempt that it seems to have such bad leadership over the years. Any city that has the bad publicity of a Kwame Kilpatrick scandal [[for example) is going to receive negative feedback.

I love St. Louis and visit it pretty often. It also has kind of a bad reputation and it is an awesome city. So I know that reputation is not all there is to a city. However, having read some news reports about Detroit, I can't help but wonder if some of its problems are due to its leadership. If a city doesn't have good leadership it's hard to escape a downward spiral.

Detroit has good and bad qualities, but the media mostly focuses on the bad qualities, and there's a lot there to focus on. So it's no wonder people have bad expectations of Detroit. When most of the publicity is bad, what do people expect?

I don't think the bad publicity for Detroit is anything new. It's probably been happening for decades. My Dad said he would get catalogs as a kid [[early 1970s) and the catalogs sold guns and weapons. Any weapon would have a note on it that said "not sold in Detroit or surrounding suburbs." So apparently Detroit's reputation is not new.

Suburbanites hating the city is probably not exclusive to Detroit. I have heard of the same thing in St. Louis, particularly among the Middle Aged and older. St. Louis is better than it used to be [[Escape From New York was filmed in St. Louis in 1981 and it looked pretty bombed out then. It's a lot better now). So the kids of the Boomers who left probably tend to have a more negative view of the city. Many of them just come for a sporting event and leave, not realizing the great places they are missing.

Any thoughts on any of the Strong [[OP)?

What a view! I'm coming to visit... LOL! Do you miss the availability good tasting of the water straight out of the tap down there. I have family in that area and they say for sure they miss the Great Lakes ample water. Many places the water is pretty yucky [[parts of California, New Mexico, Atlanta, Jersey, etc.)

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Originally Posted by MidTownMs

If this question is directed to me I moved to the beautiful state of New Mexico the Land of Enchantment. There are so many things I miss about Detroit and Michigan but there are more things that I don't miss. But when I sit on my front porch in Albuquerque and look at this beautiful sunset [[picture below) I can honestly say I don't miss Detroit or Michigan that much.

Attachment 17648

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Precisely. I am black and go in and out of the suburbs almost daily relative to employment and commerce as needed. Everyone with reservations about living in Detroit isn't racist. And there are black racists as well as white racists. I met, known and worked with BOTH!

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Originally Posted by bailey

I don't think anyone has ever denied that there are racists in metro Detroit, however, what many seem to obsessively posit here is that there is no justification for living in the suburbs OTHER than racism.

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Originally Posted by Zacha341

What a view! I'm coming to visit... LOL! Do you miss the availability good tasting of the water straight out of the tap down there. I have family in that area and they say for sure they miss the Great Lakes ample water. Many places the water is pretty yucky [[parts of California, New Mexico, Atlanta, Jersey, etc.)

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I haven't given a lot of thought about the water here. Whenever I've needed water it's always been available. As far as the taste they sell water here just like they do in Michigan. So I guess the answer to your question is no.

When one person in the forum writes ' Do People hate Detroit?' others will answer in a racial backlash! It's all black folks fault!

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Originally Posted by Zacha341

Sadly I do think some believe this to be so.

And BTW I don't particularly mind you promoting things you do. Others here promote what they are doing and involved in. I am happy however you are doing it less in the third-person narrative [[shiller) style...:cool:...

Are you partnering with an existing film company regarding your upcoming film... are you engaging any of the educational institutions or resources?

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It's only in on a occasion that I mention my film project and I'll do it even less in the future for I have a whole thread on Connect in Detroit.

Also, I have not partnered with anyone to produce my film and so far only a few crowd funders or people to have placed a order for the Dvd or purchased a patron ad as offered on my website www.strongdetroit.net so all the financial backing has been my personal funds but that's okay.

I think that everybody is right to a point.
Detroiters hate what Detroit has become. Some blame the black establishment because it was blacks in power when the decline happen so is warranted but some is because the auto industry took such a step backwards and people didn't gear up another industry to replace it.
Whites left Detroit after the riots and took many jobs and economic opportunity with them but I admit I understand that move when in some instance the mayor encouraged them to leave which was a huge mistake.
Now, in regards to the racist theory. Many blacks don't like whites and at the same ask them to handouts and Many whites don't like blacks for the asking of handouts and the crimes we commit.
On a national level the media hates Detroit and used us as the symbol of what's bad in urban America which created a national hate for the city.
Well that brings us to the present, Detroit ain't gone anywhere and the lights are still on. We have some ugly neighborhoods which is a result of less population and we have some great neighborhoods and pockets in bad neighborhoods. We have some people who are making a difference both black and white folk. And, some might say that Detroit is making a comeback.
So if my brothers could stop the violence and maybe a job with prayer could be the reason and people begin to take another perspective in their attitude then maybe....

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Originally Posted by Strong

On a national level the media hates Detroit and used us as the symbol of what's bad in urban America which created a national hate for the city.

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I don't want to comment on the racial aspect because there are enough flame wars on the forum about that.

I do want to comment on the media hating on Detroit, because they do. The eastern establishment [[which controls the media) hated Detroit once Detroit began to grow. They hated all of the nouveau rich making bundles of money off of the auto industry. They consider the decline of the domestic industry and the disaster of Detroit to be a good comeuppance. Note they don't hate on the other failed "black" cities like Newark, Camden, Gary, and East St Louis.

You didnt want to comment on the racial aspect because...

But your allusion to failed black cities is strange, because...

I dont think other american cities wish ill on Detroit nor do they hate it. I think folks usually want it to get better not worse. New Yorkers dont love or hate on places like Camden and Gary because they are not on anybody's radar so to speak, which is sad. Detroit is a major city and thus, it is more of a spectacle of what can go wrong with american cities and towns, predominantly black or white in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Danny

When one person in the forum writes ' Do People hate Detroit?' others will answer in a racial backlash! It's all black folks fault!

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Where are you reading that? The only argument I see here is if those in the suburbs hate Detroit. You're not implying there are only white people in the suburbs are you? Wouldn't that be..well racist?

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Originally Posted by Hermod

I don't want to comment on the racial aspect because there are enough flame wars on the forum about that.

I do want to comment on the media hating on Detroit, because they do. The eastern establishment [[which controls the media) hated Detroit once Detroit began to grow. They hated all of the nouveau rich making bundles of money off of the auto industry. They consider the decline of the domestic industry and the disaster of Detroit to be a good comeuppance. Note they don't hate on the other failed "black" cities like Newark, Camden, Gary, and East St Louis.

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I was using the other failed cities as a comparison that the media save their vitriol for Detroit. One of the reasons the coastal folks [[on both sides) went for foreign cars in a big way when they became available, just another way to stick it to "Detroit" .

I live in the DC Metro area. Presently, by Silver Spring. Anyhow, the coast foreign car buyers also like to claim that those like myself who buy from Ford, GM or Chrysler are racist against the Japanese. As part of my job, I research patents and technical literature for engine and transmission control algorithms. I would say that maybe one name out of a thousand published by Toyota has a non-Japanese author. "Racist" Ford, on the other hand, reads like the UN. Hell, Ed Wellborn, the head of design for Cadillac and a big factor in my next purchase - an ATS, is an African American. I have to agree that their is a sort of pathological anti-Detroit mentality on the East Coast. It gets more absurd. My brother works for NAVSEA and, due to the cost of the wars, the USN has to find ways to keep ship building costs down. He told me that the engineers they get from Metro Detroit are saving the Navy. My uncle who owned an injection molding firm had a good saying "he who does the most with the least wins". In DC that becomes "he who gets the most something for doing nothing gets his name on a building".

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Originally Posted by Pickford-Bentler

I live in the DC Metro area. Presently, by Silver Spring. Anyhow, the coast foreign car buyers also like to claim that those like myself who buy from Ford, GM or Chrysler are racist against the Japanese. As part of my job, I research patents and technical literature for engine and transmission control algorithms. I would say that maybe one name out of a thousand published by Toyota has a non-Japanese author. "Racist" Ford, on the other hand, reads like the UN. Hell, Ed Wellborn, the head of design for Cadillac and a big factor in my next purchase - an ATS, is an African American. I have to agree that their is a sort of pathological anti-Detroit mentality on the East Coast. It gets more absurd. My brother works for NAVSEA and, due to the cost of the wars, the USN has to find ways to keep ship building costs down. He told me that the engineers they get from Metro Detroit are saving the Navy. My uncle who owned an injection molding firm had a good saying "he who does the most with the least wins". In DC that becomes "he who gets the most something for doing nothing gets his name on a building".

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The head of design at Chrysler is also an african american of haitian origin; Ralph Gilles.

Cool! I will be checking it out and I wish you the best with the project. Z341

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Originally Posted by Strong

...I have not partnered with anyone to produce my film and so far only a few crowd funders or people to have placed a order for the Dvd or purchased a patron ad as offered on my website www.strongdetroit.net so all the financial backing has been my personal funds but that's okay.

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Originally Posted by Hermod

I was using the other failed cities as a comparison that the media save their vitriol for Detroit. One of the reasons the coastal folks [[on both sides) went for foreign cars in a big way when they became available, just another way to stick it to "Detroit" .

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I thought it was more about it was the seventies and gas shortages and imports came on the scene with cup holders and power windows and reliability that sipped gas,they filled the demand that Detroit could not at the time because they became to complacent,lots of foreign cars from the seventies are still on the road,what about Pinto's and Vegas etc. I am not sure other then the "Hungry? Eat your rice burner " bumper stickers it would seem there was a lot of support.Not a reason to dislike a city.

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Originally Posted by Hermod

I was using the other failed cities as a comparison that the media save their vitriol for Detroit. One of the reasons the coastal folks [[on both sides) went for foreign cars in a big way when they became available, just another way to stick it to "Detroit" .

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Hermod, your post isn't exactly correct. I don't think anyone intentionally "stuck it to Detroit". You have to look back @ the American automobile industry back then. The Unions had become very cocky. American designed products had serious reliability and longetivity issues. People were also becoming less enchanted with automobiles. They just wanted to get from point A to point B, EVERYTIME they turned the key. I remember shopping for a used car, finding an American product on the lot with 36K on the odometer, and thinking "my God, this thing is shot". People were running into the foreign car minority, driving automobiles with 70, 80, 90K miles on them, and with just routine maintenance. In essence, American automobile manufacturing had shot themselves in the foot. They thought their golden era would just go on forever.

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Originally Posted by canuck

The head of design at Chrysler is also an african american of haitian origin; Ralph Gilles.

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And he is as FINE as the Chrysler 300 one of the many Chrysler products that he has designed since joining Chrysler in 1992. And he attended the College of Creative Studies in Detroit and has and MBA from MSU!!!

Attachment 17692

^^^ Great accomplishment!

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Originally Posted by MidTownMs

And he is as FINE as the Chrysler 300 one of the many Chrysler products that designed has designed since joining Chrysler in 1992. And he attended the College of Creative Studies in Detroit and has and MBA from MSU!!!

Attachment 17692

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Yep! And we can claim a bit of him too since he grew up in Montreal. He was born in New York and has dual citizenship.

hate is a pretty strong word. People in the suburbs dont hate Detroit. If anything they are indifferent to Detroit and are reluctant to visit for safety concerns. They wont patronize stores in Detroit. If they go downtown a ballgame its Freeway ->Parking Garage -> Freeway for many of em. If anything the news reinforces their decision to stay away and suburban $$ stays in the suburbs.

I am a bit [very!] far to give a opinion without being on the ground there

But i have noticed that Detroit is 75% black afro-american and 25% white population, and that crime is out of control, am i reading to much into this?

Is it drugs, lack of jobs, education or other/all/none?

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Originally Posted by AUSSIE

I am a bit [very!] far to give a opinion without being on the ground there

But i have noticed that Detroit is 75% black afro-american and 25% white population, and that crime is out of control, am i reading to much into this?

Is it drugs, lack of jobs, education or other/all/none?

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Right, mate.....

I've lived in and around Detroit for several decades [[let's say well the better part of a century and that's as specific as I get). My family came to 'Old' Delray just after WWI. Before I was born, it was wagons ho to the west side. Ours was the last white family on South Martindale between Grand River and Northfield. Our family had to leave.

I once had the opportunity to drive many celebrities around the Detroit area as a chauffeur for a young neighbor's new limo business. I would often ask [[when the rare opportunity came up for me to speak) what these sports and entertainment celebrities thought about Detroit [[not their audiences, the city). The nicest thing that I can remember was Rev. Al Green's response, a truthful one: 'Detroit is what it is'. Usually, I got a sidestep or no answer at all. When I dropped people off on the tarmac at Pontiac/Oakland or Metro, I would invariably end up telling them to please come back and visit us here in Detroit and also invariably get a stone faced mannequin look as if I had just invited them to stick their whatever in a light socket.

So, I go with Rev. Green's mindset. Detroit is what it is. Detroit is in deep trouble. People who want to sit in the peanut gallery and toss shells at us are no good anyways. When your house is on fire, forget about what the neighbors are saying, stop the fire.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Right, mate.....

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Not sure what you mean or where u are going with that, but i want to stress i am not turning this into a race/colour thing, just commenting on how i see it with what i read.

For instance, the school near my future joint @ 8200 Mack is the Hutchinson Elementary, and of the 573 students, ONE is a white:

http://detroitk12.org/schools/school/174/demographics/

Sorry, very confused with all this.

eh... You know what happened to the last australian I heard of that bought a building on the eastside?

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Originally Posted by rex

eh... You know what happened to the last australian I heard of that bought a building on the eastside?

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Yeah, i still remember the reason:

"Young said he did not realise he was holding a pistol, and the weapon suddenly went off."

WTF?

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law...-1226427830078

He got 35 years, min. 20 years

I don't hate Detroit. I love Detroit.

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Originally Posted by AUSSIE

Not sure what you mean or where u are going with that, but i want to stress i am not turning this into a race/colour thing, just commenting on how i see it with what i read.

For instance, the school near my future joint @ 8200 Mack is the Hutchinson Elementary, and of the 573 students, ONE is a white:

http://detroitk12.org/schools/school/174/demographics/

Sorry, very confused with all this.

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First I agree with your statement. Second, I was giving you my best Australian accent impersonation. I guess something got lost in the translation..... Are you really moving here, buying the building, or just wishful thinking?

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

First I agree with your statement. Second, I was giving you my best Australian accent impersonation. I guess something got lost in the translation..... Are you really moving here, buying the building, or just wishful thinking?

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No worries!!

For now i am planning to come to USA latter in the year, when it warms up a bit, have many friends and girlfriends in USA, none in MI though.

Of course I will be checking out 8200 Mack and try my best not to get robbed/shot etc

To live in USA is difficult, not sure its any better than Australia anyway, always enjoyed my many trips to USA

With 8200 Mack would consider buying a portion [1/4. 1/3. 1/2.] of it in partnership with a local US person, not interested to buy it for the sake of buying it, would need to run a business and pay for itself, its tough though, if it was all too easy somebody would have pinched it by now.

We sell parking spots in CBD Sydney for not much less than that ask.

Maybe turn it into a speakeasy/blind-pig joint....:)

GREAT building, nothing to hate about it, other than it may be falling down inside and the area/suburb its located in could be a issue?

More due diligence required

Cheers

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Originally Posted by AUSSIE

No worries!!

For now i am planning to come to USA latter in the year, when it warms up a bit, have many friends and girlfriends in USA, none in MI though.

Of course I will be checking out 8200 Mack and try my best not to get robbed/shot etc

To live in USA is difficult, not sure its any better than Australia anyway, always enjoyed my many trips to USA

With 8200 Mack would consider buying a portion [1/4. 1/3. 1/2.] of it in partnership with a local US person, not interested to buy it for the sake of buying it, would need to run a business and pay for itself, its tough though, if it was all too easy somebody would have pinched it by now.

We sell parking spots in CBD Sydney for not much less than that ask.

Maybe turn it into a speakeasy/blind-pig joint....:)

GREAT building, nothing to hate about it, other than it may be falling down inside and the area/suburb its located in could be a issue?

More due diligence required

Cheers

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Maybe turn it into a speakeasy/blind-pig joint....:)
That's a thriving business here in Detroit!
I'll drive around it a couple of times in the daylight and report back if I see anything out of the ordinary.

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Maybe turn it into a speakeasy/blind-pig joint....:)
That's a thriving business here in Detroit!
I'll drive around it a couple of times in the daylight and report back if I see anything out of the ordinary.

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Appreciate that!

Don't be shy, take a camera with you!

Actually it would be great to get one of the US Networks to make a show about its rebirth, they could well finance it, if they make shows about Kardashians and Hiltons this is a no-brainer

Most of America wants to put its boot into Detroit, us Aussies always root for the underdog, maybe that, and that its the MotorCity HQ is why i like the joint.

Cheers

For one thing in Detroit a suburb is an independent city with it's own Mayor. In other bits of the US [[particularly California) a suburb could be a neighborhood within a larger City, but in Detroit a Suburb is officially it's own City. The area around your building is called a neighborhood.

For another the racial breakdown of the local school says almost nothing about the racial breakdown of the neighborhood. I was in a pretty mixed neighborhood [[Woodbridge), and no white kids went to the neighborhood school. Most were in private schools, or managed to finagle a spot in one of the local suburban systems. The rest [[aka: me, my sister, and one chick) went to "Magnet Schools" which recruited from the entire city.

For a third Detroit's racial problems are incredibly complex.

Basically what happened is that in the late 70s and early 80s the white population fled en masse. Due to the fact that blacks are poor this meant that the City did not have enough taxpayers. With no money you can't afford police, basic city services, schools, etc. so now pretty much every black person who can leave is doing so.

That said, I am giving you a worse impression of the City then is probably warranted Detroit is actually a lot better off then Highland Park or Hamtramck because it still has some tax base, partly on the Southwest side, and partly Downtown. It has historically been able to balance it's budget most of the time, with taxes that are not much worse then imposed by other big US Cities. And since the Auto industry's recovering we'll probably end up with a few years and optimism of surpluses 2013-2015.

But long-term pretty much the only plans to help the City that people within the City actually consider are drastic measures like bulldozing 37 sq miles, declaring it a park, and moving the 50-100k people who live there into a newly-built sub-city.

People don't "hate" Detroit. They regret what has happened to it and long for it to become a livable city of 2 Million+ so that those of us that would enjoy living in a large city would want to move in. Unfortunately Detroit is light years away from that; if ever again. We don't even visit without at least a passing consideration of our personal safety. Imagine how beautiful it would now be if over a million residents hadn't left over the last 50 years.

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Originally Posted by coracle

People don't "hate" Detroit. They regret what has happened to it and long for it to become a livable city of 2 Million+ so that those of us that would enjoy living in a large city would want to move in. Unfortunately Detroit is light years away from that; if ever again. We don't even visit without at least a passing consideration of our personal safety. Imagine how beautiful it would now be if over a million residents hadn't left over the last 50 years.

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People don't even know what happened to Detroit, they are dismissive and make sweeping over generalizations about the city without fully understanding what has taken place over a number of decades.

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Originally Posted by ccal

People don't even know what happened to Detroit, they are dismissive and make sweeping over generalizations about the city without fully understanding what has taken place over a number of decades.

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Do you know what happened to Detroit?

^^^ I was gonna say the same thing [[ccal). Your statement sounds as if you know what happened to the city. I'd like to hear your take?