Serious question posed by the Chicago Sun Times: Is Chicago ‘becoming Detroit?’

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The location of the shooting on Ontario Street just a few feet away from North Michigan Avenue — the city’s marquee shopping district — stunned Chicago aldermen.

“When you start having that [violence] in a place where people generally feel safe, that’s when we start becoming Detroit,” said one alderman, who asked to remain annonymous.
The shooting occurred at 12:33 a.m. The 31-year-old victim was standing outside his vehicle when someone in a sport-utility vehicle pulled up, asked what his gang affiliation is and opened fire, hitting him in the abdomen, according to the police.

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http://www.suntimes.com/13339679-761...on-safety.html

Ouch. Detroit has become a benchmark. :[[

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Originally Posted by Jimaz

Ouch. Detroit has become a benchmark. :[[

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Detroit is probably used as an example in urban planning classes as what NOT to do with a city.

No one wants to become Detroit, and are doing everything OPPOSITe of what Detroit has done.

I think it is a pretty good example of how hypocritical politicians can be about problems they dont want to deal with. How many times have you read about the 10 to 20 victims a weekend shootouts in various parts of Chicago?

How is it that an archetypal Chicago problem becomes Detroit style?
Detroit again becomes an easy target from lazy shots.

Because this "incident" happened in a ritzy part of downtown? It speaks more to the ghettoized mindset than to the spreading of a foreign problem, come on!

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

http://www.suntimes.com/13339679-761...on-safety.html[/FONT][/COLOR]

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The Chicago Sun-Times did not pose the question. The Chicago Sun-Times reported that some alderman made that observation on his own. Therefore there is nothing "serious" about it.

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Originally Posted by poobert

The Chicago Sun-Times did not pose the question. The Chicago Sun-Times reported that some alderman made that observation on his own. Therefore there is nothing "serious" about it.

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Well, no... The Sun-Times posed the question. But they have changed the headline since I first posted the link [[probably got pushback from some readers). The anonymous alderman made the statement likening this incident to what he believes is common occurrence in Detroit.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

Well, no... The Sun-Times posed the question. But they have changed the headline since I first posted the link [[probably got pushback from some readers). The anonymous alderman made the statement likening this incident to what he believes is common occurrence in Detroit.

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Ah, thanks for the clarification.

Rather silly...Chicago has never been a terribly safe place, as they even mention in the article. Seems like Chicago is just being Chicago.

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Originally Posted by poobert

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

Rather silly...Chicago has never been a terribly safe place, as they even mention in the article. Seems like Chicago is just being Chicago.

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That was my take on it too. From my perspective, people outside of Detroit and Chicago tend to liken the two cities on the issue of crime. The distinction is made on how much Detroit has decayed versus Chciago.

Safe? Chicago?

Not me.

Chicago has always been a violent city. Think back to the "roaring 20's" when Al Capone and his crew were shooting first, and asking questions later.

Oh god. All of you missed the point.

No one said Chicago doesn't have crime problems.

But the fact is, no matter which way you spin it, Detroit is far more dangerous than Chicago. This is between the fact that the violent crimes in Detroit occur all over town to random people versus to gang members in certain parts of town, and if the police respond at all, the average wait time is a ridiculous 1/2 hour versus 10 minutes in Chicago.

Who cares. What big city doesn't have crime?

Can we move along already...

Some people, and communities obviously, really believe their shit don't stink.

The media is a culprit in this, certain cities like Detroit, Cleveland, Baltimore, Philadelphia just have to be the boogeyman.

We have 400 murders sure, but that's just in the black part of town! A man gets grazed in Bougieville and suddenly that 401st victim is a problem.

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Originally Posted by brizee

Some people, and communities obviously, really believe their shit don't stink.

The media is a culprit in this, certain cities like Detroit, Cleveland, Baltimore, Philadelphia just have to be the boogeyman.

We have 400 murders sure, but that's just in the black part of town! A man gets grazed in Bougieville and suddenly that 401st victim is a problem.

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Exiled to Chicago from Detroit. We have a big gang problem. These killings & shootings are not domestic, but between hot head gang members. We have a strong mayor and I believe he will put a stop to this. He's trying to bring business to the downtown area, and it won't fly if people are shooting each other.
One thing about Chicago, when you call the police, not one cop car arrives, but about FIVE! They are quick response!

what I'm about to write is going to be considered racist....but the majority of these shootings are between black people [[and some latinos), and the sooner we can move the uneducated, poorer class blacks out of the city the better. When the Housing Dept tore down the projects [[Cabrini-Green, et al), the gangs holed up in the projects scattered to the nicer neighborhoods. Those were the nice neighborhoods of black residents who owned property.This is a problem of absentee landlords and slum landlords letting unknowns rent their apartments, charging Little rent, and too many guns.
You won't read it, but the President's neighborhood of Kenwood is also a war-zone for shootings.

LoL at Da Mare fixin the problems, Whats he going to put a tax on gang shootings ? And gary mccarthy and tv tommy dart are busy tap dancing around the issue.
The only things that could put a damper on the problem is ten degree weather.
I heard on the radio that there have been less people killed in Afghanistan this year versus Chicago. The shooters wont being leaving Lawndale or West Pullman anytime soon in my estimation.

[QUOTE=Chicago48;326897]Exiled to Chicago from Detroit. We have a big gang problem. These killings & shootings are not domestic, but between hot head gang members. We have a strong mayor and I believe he will put a stop to this. He's trying to bring business to the downtown area, and it won't fly if people are shooting each other.
One thing about Chicago, when you call the police, not one cop car arrives, but about FIVE! They are quick response!

what I'm about to write is going to be considered racist....but the majority of these shootings are between black people [[and some latinos), and the sooner we can move the uneducated, poorer class blacks out of the city the better. When the Housing Dept tore down the projects [[Cabrini-Green, et al), the gangs holed up in the projects scattered to the nicer neighborhoods. Those were the nice neighborhoods of black residents who owned property.This is a problem of absentee landlords and slum landlords letting unknowns rent their apartments, charging Little rent, and too many guns.
You won't read it, but the President's neighborhood of Kenwood is also a war-zone for shootings.[/QUOTE/]

I guess you would have 5 cop cars on the scene in 5 mins. Chicago doesn't have the financial problems Detroit has, and Chicago is 3 times the size of Detroit.

Rahm will continue to do what Chicago has ALWAYS done. And that's sweep the problems under the rug. But it's too late, crime in Chicago is WAY out of control and these young black youths are getting more brash, bolder and they DO NOT fear the cops. You mentioned gangs but more importantly you didn't mention drugs. This is what's fueling the gangs of Chicago.

Rahm is all about making money and he is too selfish to permanently address the problems of crime and drugs in Chicago. Crime has NO boundaries and like you said, as long as these illiterate and hungry wolves are roaming the streets the crime problem will only get worse for Chicago. I laugh when I hear all the yuppies crying about crime once it FINALLY crosses into their "so-called" safe communities. As if crime can only be contained to the ghetto's. How Naive! These yuppies were living in a fantasy world, believing the westside and southside were thousands of miles away, separated by a huge brick wall with CPD keeping them safe. How many times have you heard white people say..."as long as you don't cross Ashland, you'll be safe..." Or "just don't go past Western and you'll be cool dude..." Every year the border is pushed out one major block and it's even made its way to Pulaski in some areas. These racist transplants or suburbanites should have never been in Chicago in the first place. All neighborhoods have good people and crime can breed anywhere. ALL OF THE BIG CITIES IN THE NORTH HAVE HIGH CRIME!

How is Rahm going to clean up crime in Chicago? Better yet, how is he going to force out all of the project based black people before all of the ex-pat Michiganders and Big-10 graduate tax payers decide they're no longer going to put up with this violence. I'd like to hear Rahms plan. And I agree with you again, that Rahm is focused on bring tons of businesses and big money into the city but what's his answer going to be to crime? Because crime is out of pockets in all of Chicago's neighborhoods now. The wolves are hungry and they're going straight to the money source now. The white neighborhoods. There was a shooting in LINCOLN PARK this morning...in the park! Earlier this week an innocent white male dog walker on the northside got his throat slashed by an unknown attacker.

Isn't governor Pat Quinn CLOSING the doors to 2 or 3 maximum security prisons this week? Letting these people return to the dangerous streets of Chicago. My guess is, these convicts now having criminal records, mental health issues, substance abuse addictions, no jobs, limited family support, no money, no support systems and a host of other problems. What kind of life do you think they'll return to? A life of crime in the streets of Chicago. Didn't Pat Quinn just shut down a mental facility in south suburban Tinley Park this week? Isn't the State dead broke and now has THE WORST CREDIT RATING IN THE NATION? Believe me, the roof is going to come down on Chicago UNLESS a Chicago politician and the "smart voters of Illinois [[lol)" decides to finally become a law abiding citizen. And I don't think that's gonna happen.

Detroit has hit bottom or we're very close and we're clawing our way out of the hole. Chicago is heading south like a Boeing 747 airplane out of control. Their problems are just beginning. If you believe otherwise you're fooling yourself.

The good thing about the city of Chicago is that, it's already a world class powerhouse city. Even suffering from a lost decade it's still a monster of a successfully, dominant city throughout the world. It's problems are reversible but are you willing to bet on a sleazy, selfish and slimy Chicago politician? I wouldn't.


But there's a first time for everything...

I don't know if this is a popular idea, but why do we not tie all government assistant programs to some achievable goals. If someone doesn't have a diploma they should be forced to get a GED if they want assistance. If they don't have a job they should be forced to do job training. We have so many people who have gone through the system and are illiterate with no job skills. How can we ever address crime if we aren't addressing poverty? I consider myself a fairly liberal person, but I feel these programs are given out with too much ease. Poverty breeds crime, until we address that nothing will change. We also need FAR more law enforcement in the big northern cities. More after school programs. Perhaps require that kids participate in at least one after school program of some type in order to graduate. Keep them off the streets and out of trouble. Trying to ban guns, or sagging pants, or the litany of other idiotic ideas cities have come up with will solve nothing.

One thing that annoys me about Chicago is that they compile their crime stats differently, so Detroit and St. Louis are on the most dangerous cities list but Chicago is not. I'm not really convinced that Chicago is as safe as their absence on these lists makes them appear to me. St. Louis is usually on the list partially because the city is so small and half of it is bad neighborhoods, so that throws the numbers off. St. Louis has crime mostly in bad neighborhoods, which is how most cities are. I'm not sure about Detroit or Chicago, as I don't live there. People think Chicago is safer because it's not on the list, not realizing that it could deserve to be on the list, but it's not because of the way it compiles its data. I've heard Chicagoans talk about what a dump St. Louis is, but Chicago has a lot of similar problems, they just have a prettier package overall. When a city is that large it's easy to overlook the bad neighborhoods.

The first step in becoming Detroit is having a pointless over-paid city council that accomplishes nothing.

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Originally Posted by LeannaM

One thing that annoys me about Chicago is that they compile their crime stats differently, so Detroit and St. Louis are on the most dangerous cities list but Chicago is not. I'm not really convinced that Chicago is as safe as their absence on these lists makes them appear to me. St. Louis is usually on the list partially because the city is so small and half of it is bad neighborhoods, so that throws the numbers off. St. Louis has crime mostly in bad neighborhoods, which is how most cities are. I'm not sure about Detroit or Chicago, as I don't live there. People think Chicago is safer because it's not on the list, not realizing that it could deserve to be on the list, but it's not because of the way it compiles its data. I've heard Chicagoans talk about what a dump St. Louis is, but Chicago has a lot of similar problems, they just have a prettier package overall. When a city is that large it's easy to overlook the bad neighborhoods.

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Wouldn't you say it's smart marketing done by Chicago? Iffalsifying your crime stats helps with tourism and rankings then why not fudgethe numbers. Half of these stupid rankings are inaccurate anyway and people arestill going to judge your regardless, based on their own experiences. IfDetroit were smarter, they'd do the same thing. I hear New York city fudges thenumbers as well. This is just being smart and doing whatever it takes to makeyour city rise above the others. It’s all about the money at the end of theday. Many of us do it in some form in our own personal lives. How often do yougo around telling everyone your idiosyncrasies and faults? Not very often.Otherwise people would most likely avoid you or maybe look down on you. It's nodifferent for a city.

I call it smart marketing.

This kind of violence has happened in Lincoln Park as well. Hopefully this is a wake up call to the mayor to hire more police. Everytime the city has put more officers on the street, the violent crime numbers decrease.

The reason residents around here could care less about a gang shooting on Mich ave is because the mobs of kids ccoming from the south and west sides to Chicago station downtown have been causing trouble. So far the police have flexed their muscle against these kids and the problem has decreased but it still remains a concern of area residents

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If someone doesn't have a diploma they should be forced to get a GED if they want assistance.

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...or pass a drug test!

I used to think that too.

But if they dont then what? Cut them off? ...making them hungrier? They'll be pulled up by bootstraps alright...yours... wrapped around your neck.

This type of violence and crime will not stop and as posted will "spread" until we really address and redefine education. 6-12 grade is whats really broken IMO.

Rate of Killings Rises 38 Percent in Chicago in 2012


Yup, Chicago's safe as can be.

Chicago seems to be teflon when it comes to crime - or other social ills [[like ugly architecture -esp. the soldier field tumor, although millenium park is starting to grow on me). Remember the rash of school kid shootings a few years ago?

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Originally Posted by Meddle

Rate of Killings Rises 38 Percent in Chicago in 2012


Yup, Chicago's safe as can be.

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When I consider safety in a particular city, I think about crime distribution. I would hypothesize in Detroit's instance, crime is spread fairly evenly across the city. All blocks can tell a story of a shooting nearby in recent memory.

In the case of Chicago, it's very concentrated. People who live on the Northside, Blue-Line Westside, Near Southside, and downtown seem to not give a damn about crime numbers. I've lived in the city three years now and tend to bike the streets as far South as Cermak, west as far as Western and North as far Lawrence and most of my time afterwork is spent outdoors. I haven't heard a gunshot and I've not witnessed any fights. I know it happens in these parts, but it seems rare.

With news of it occurring it's a wake up call. I counted 76 cops on my walk home from work this evening. So at least they've stomped out the crime problem near and around downtown.

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Originally Posted by wolverine

When I consider safety in a particular city, I think about crime distribution. I would hypothesize in Detroit's instance, crime is spread fairly evenly across the city. All blocks can tell a story of a shooting nearby in recent memory.

In the case of Chicago, it's very concentrated. People who live on the Northside, Blue-Line Westside, Near Southside, and downtown seem to not give a damn about crime numbers. I've lived in the city three years now and tend to bike the streets as far South as Cermak, west as far as Western and North as far Lawrence and most of my time afterwork is spent outdoors. I haven't heard a gunshot and I've not witnessed any fights. I know it happens in these parts, but it seems rare.

With news of it occurring it's a wake up call. I counted 76 cops on my walk home from work this evening. So at least they've stomped out the crime problem near and around downtown.

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Oh, you're really dreaming!

Stompted out crime near and around downtown. Not everythingis reported on the front page you know...

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Originally Posted by 313WX

Detroit is probably used as an example in urban planning classes as what NOT to do with a city.

No one wants to become Detroit, and are doing everything OPPOSITe of what Detroit has done.

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Detroit is actually used more in the urban planning class as a city that has so much potential for change. The places where current urban planning policies don't work and where new ones will definitely be born. So, there is a lot more positives of Detroit talked about in the urban planning class. We are supposed to learn from this downfall of a once grand American city, not continue bitching about it.

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Originally Posted by wolverine

When I consider safety in a particular city, I think about crime distribution. I would hypothesize in Detroit's instance, crime is spread fairly evenly across the city. All blocks can tell a story of a shooting nearby in recent memory.

In the case of Chicago, it's very concentrated. People who live on the Northside, Blue-Line Westside, Near Southside, and downtown seem to not give a damn about crime numbers. I've lived in the city three years now and tend to bike the streets as far South as Cermak, west as far as Western and North as far Lawrence and most of my time afterwork is spent outdoors. I haven't heard a gunshot and I've not witnessed any fights. I know it happens in these parts, but it seems rare.

With news of it occurring it's a wake up call. I counted 76 cops on my walk home from work this evening. So at least they've stomped out the crime problem near and around downtown.

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Define crime. Shootings? Yeah, those are probably more concentrated to certain areas in Chicago than Detroit. Everything else? Seems like it's more widespread in Chicago than Detroit, at least according to these two maps:

http://spotcrime.com/mi/detroit

http://spotcrime.com/il/chicago

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

Define crime. Shootings? Yeah, those are probably more concentrated to certain areas in Chicago than Detroit. Everything else? Seems like it's more widespread in Chicago than Detroit, at least according to these two maps:

http://spotcrime.com/mi/detroit

http://spotcrime.com/il/chicago

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Of course you're going to see more petty crimes when you have a higher population density.

The rate and distribution of the violnt crims is what matters most to people, combined with response times of emergency services,

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Originally Posted by 313WX

Of course you're going to see more petty crimes when you have a higher population density.

The rate and distribution of the violnt crims is what matters most to people, combined with response times of emergency services,

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Most of those are not petty crimes.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

Most of those are not petty crimes.

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On the North Side, the lion's share of the crimes appear to be drug abuse, graffiti, larency-theft, and burglarly.

There are a few simple batteries/assault reports.

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Originally Posted by 313WX

On the North Side, the lion's share of the crimes appear to be drug abuse, graffiti, larency-theft, and burglarly.

There are a few simple batteries/assault reports.

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Quite a few larcenies and burglaries as well. But by your logic, NYC's map would be as busy as Chicago's: http://spotcrime.com/ny/newyork

Detroit and Chicago are alike in some ways.

1. Both have segregation and demarcation in their neighborhoods.

2. Both have urban street crimes.

3. Both have Greektowns.

4 Both have Mexicantowns.

5. Both populations are dropping. From 1950 to 2010, Chicago lost over 1,100,000 people. It went from 3,000,000 to 2,680,000 due to white flight to the its suburbs. However its was mostly ethnic Jewish communities in the south and North Lawndale sub-division, ethnic Polish, Germanic families in the south side from Pilsen [[Little Village) to Hyde Park further down to Pulman sub-division. That includes in the Austin community that play its role. Some parts of Hyde Park, Lincoln Park, Gold Coast, New City, Roscoe Village, Little Ukraine, Little Italy is where middle class whites maintian their stronghold despite the gang and drug violence from Chicago housing projects coming from Cabrini-Green and Robert Taylor Homes. Middle class black families maintian their stronghold in Austin sub-division and mostly throughout the south side. The remaining poor black families reside along the old Black Belt [[Bronzeville) communities, North Lawndale area and Jeffery Manor. Chicago's Chinese maintain their stronhold at Armour Square community. However they looking forward to expand further southward and westward to Roosevelt St, too. The Mexican-Hispanic maintian their stronghold at Little Village [[Plisen), Humboldt Park and further near the far northwest side. Detroit lost over 1,122,000 people from 1950 to 2010. It went from 1,840,000 to 718,000 due to white flight to its suburbs. The ethnic Jewish communities from Black Botton/Paradise Valley to the northwest side of Detroit, ethnic Germanic, Polish, Italians acclerated their flight after the 1967 riots. African Americans expanded their communties from the lower and upper west and east side to the northwest and northeast, north end and lower southwest side. Poor Whites and Mexicans-Hispanics maintain their stronghold in Southwest Side. Little Yemeni community near Hamtramck border along Mt. Elliott and Conant St. and Bengali [[ Benglatown) community in the Conant Garders and Ethnic Lebanese and Shiite Iraqi Muslims the quickly expanded their communities from Dearborn to Warrendale Area. Those three Detroit areas suddenly grew during the last 20 years. Middle class black families maintain their stronghold along 6 Mile to 8 Mile Rd. from Livernois Ave. to Reford TWP borders, some parts of Mohican Regent from State Fair Rd to Hayes, Alter Rd from Chandler Park to Grosse Pointe borders

What's different about these cities:

1. Downtown Detroit skyline is like remnants from the Great Depression. Downtown Chicago's skyline is a miniture New Yorkesque scene filled with skyscrapers with a Sears Tower and up and coming second Trump Tower that would rival the 3rd tallest structure.

2. Chicago's size is 5 times bigger and wider that it would cover almost 75% of Wayne County. While Detroit is 136 square miles.

3. Chicago has a very corrupt ward system with an alderman board powered by the Daly machine and genitrified merchantilism politics. Detroit has superior corrupt city council system about to be a corrupted district system filled with old guard Coleman Young machine powered by oppresive plantation 'house to field negro' politics.

4. Detroit has one American League baseball team called the Detroit Tigers. Chicago has the Cubs in the north side for the National League and White Sox in the south side for the American League.

5. All Chicago national league teams have their stadiums in Chicago. Detroit has three stadiums in its downtown except the Pistons which they play out in Auburn Hills.


Right Now Chicago has experienced a huge demographic change. It's population is dropping, but its the middle class black flight to the suburbs that play a role. In the north side the loss of the CHA's Cabrini-Green and replacement of middle income public housing cause many low-income blacks to move away. Only a handful of low income blacks are now living what's left of Cabrini-Green area. Some of them with a excellent clean record are now along middle to high income young professionals. During the past 30 years real estate schemes lure many middle to low-income black families from the south and west sides to occupy homes in the south suburbs. Many young professionals in the north side are expanding further west to Humboldt Park and near North Lawndale communities. They are filling up the Loop area and increasing development further south to Chicago's Old Black Belt [[Bronzeville) and Hyde Park areas. Ethnic Hispanics and Mexicans in the north side are flighting from Humboldt Park to Far Northwest areas. In the Meantime Mexicans and Hispanic are expanding their communities further in the south side, too. By 2030 Chicago will 40% more young professionals and their middle whites and 30% more Mexicans and Hispanics than Black and Chinese families. It will increase its population to over 2,900,000 people.

Detroit will experience more population decline for the next 20 to 30 years. There will be 15% less middle class black families the 42% more poor and low-income black families stuck in the lower to upper east and west side communities. Some of them will move further to once well preserve northwest and northeast communities from Grandmont-Rosedale Park, Old Redford area to Chandler Park, Morningside to East English Village. They will make a ruckus and trigger violent crime in those areas if we don't take community action immediately! Young professionals are flighting to Downtown Detroit thanks to Quicken Loans and Compuware corporate ventures. Fewer young professionals are starting to occupy gentrified areas from Brush Park to Midtown. New fast growing Yemenis, Bengalis occupy fewer east side areas that border Hamtramck and Lebanese and Shiite Iraq Muslims started to expand their communties further west through Warrendale and further east to Detroit's Southwest Side. By 2050 Detroit population will slowly increase to 950,000. The black population will decline by 30% Hispanic-Mexican population will increase by 10% and young professional and ethnic races will increase by 25%.

Anybody trying to compare Detroit crime to Chicago has never spent any time in Chicago.

There are crowds of people on the streets at night in Neighborhoods where there is no special event going on. In fact you will see more people on the streets of Chicago at night then you see any time in Detroit.

Crime rules Detroit. In Chicago it is a way of life but life goes on.

The south side is not the place to be along with much of the west side, but you are still left with an area larger than Detroit.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

Quite a few larcenies and burglaries as well. But by your logic, NYC's map would be as busy as Chicago's: http://spotcrime.com/ny/newyork

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I said larcencies and burglaries, but they're not violent crimes in th US. Plus, unlike in Detroit, I'm sure the response and resolution rate of those crimes is much higher.

I don't know why you and others on this site insist on comparing the crime situation in Chicago to Detroit's. It's a silly comparison, no matter which way you and others spin it.

Chicago's still safer than Detroit by all measures.

And now you want to interject NYC, lol..

If you want to compare anything, how about the fact that Chicago and NYC has a functional and extensively rapid transit systm while Detroit doesn't, or that Chicago and NYC haven't lost more than 25 percent of their peak populations while Detroit has lost 2/3rds of its peak population and continues to lose more, or the fact that their Metro areas have at least doubled in size since the 1950s while Detroit's has been stagnant, amongst other things.

Chicago and NYC don't have the problem. Detroit's the one with the problem if it feels so inferior that it must grasp at straws to bring down other cities and make itself feel better.

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Originally Posted by 313WX

I said larcencies and burglaries, but they're not violent crimes in th US. Plus, unlike in Detroit, I'm sure the response and resolution rate of those crimes is much higher.

I don't know why you and others on this site insist on comparing the crime situation in Chicago to Detroit's. It's a silly comparison, no matter which way you and others spin it.

Chicago's still safer than Detroit by all measures.

And now you want to interject NYC, lol..

If you want to compare anything, how about the fact that Chicago and NYC has a functional and extensively rapid transit systm while Detroit doesn't, or that Chicago and NYC haven't lost more than 25 percent of their peak populations while Detroit has lost 2/3rds of its peak population and continues to lose more, or the fact that their Metro areas have at least doubled in size since the 1950s while Detroit's has been stagnant, amongst other things.

Chicago and NYC don't have the problem. Detroit's the one with the problem if it feels so inferior that it must grasp at straws to bring down other cities and make itself feel better.

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Let's keep the story straight: it was a Chicago politician and Chicago media that tried to make an unfavorable comparison to Detroit, not the other way around. I'm just pointing out that Chicago has a crime problem that is much closer to Detroit than it is to being "safe".

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

Let's keep the story straight: it was a Chicago politician and Chicago media that tried to make an unfavorable comparison to Detroit.

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It was probably in jest, as in Detroit is the precedent for the city no other city wants to become.

Only Detroiters took it seriously, and at this point likely out of context.

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Originally Posted by 313WX

It was probably in jest, as in Detroit is the precedent for the city no other city wants to become.

Only Detroiters took it seriously, and at this point likely out of context.

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Well, it was hypocritical on Chicago's part since that city is not hardly immune to the issues Detroit is facing.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

Well, it was hypocritical on Chicago's part since that city is not hardly immune to the issues Detroit is facing.

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But would you agree it has done a better job of handling them [[along with its region and the state of Illinois)?

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Originally Posted by 313WX

But would you agree it has done a better job of handling them [[along with its region and the state of Illinois)?

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Yes, it has done a better job than Detroit. But we're talking the difference between bad and worse, not great and worst. So while Chicago is fretting about becoming Detroit, is every other city fretting about becoming Chicago?

Chicago lost a substantial number of residents in the last decade, having 200,000 residents lost in a decade, second highest numerical population drop of any city in the nation.

Chicago has a high crime rate, perhaps the worst among top 10 cities if they would actually report all of their stats.

Chicago has a high unemployment rate, higher than the national average and second highest of top 10 cities.

Chicago has a ton of blighted neighborhoods.

Chicago's transit system, while light years ahead of Detroit's... really ain't that great. It's average by East Coast standards and sub par by international standards -- which is relevant since it proclaims to be a global city.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

Yes, it has done a better job than Detroit. But we're talking the difference between bad and worse, not great and worst. So while Chicago is fretting about becoming Detroit, is every other city fretting about becoming Chicago?

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No.

Most cities would love to be at Chicago's [[or even Toronto's) level, even Detroit although it won't admit it. That's why so many cities compare themselves to it.

The only exceptions ar NYC, Boston, San Francisco and maybe DC.

There's one big difference with Chicago as far as I know. I don't believe their core economy ever centered around one industry. Haven't they always been somewhat diverse?

With Detroit, when the auto industry faltered, there wasn't much to fall back on.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

Chicago has a ton of blighted neighborhoods.

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Define "blighted."

The South Side, where most of the blight is, still averages a population density of 20-25,000, even with the mostly depopulated englewood neighborhood.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

Chicago's transit system, while light years ahead of Detroit's... really ain't that great. It's average by East Coast standards and sub par by international standards -- which is relevant since it proclaims to be a global city.

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Chicago global city status is based more so around its economic output [[fourth largest GDP internationally) versus its mass transit.

Business leaders from all parts of the world in all sorts of industries have to visit Chicago for one reason or another.

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Originally Posted by 313WX

Define "blighted."

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Chicago has tons of severely blighted neighborhoods with abandoned houses and empty lots, much like the worst of anything you will ever see in Detroit.

This is blight: http://www.totalmortgage.com/blog/wp.../01/blight.jpg

And this: http://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-mu.../08/blight.jpg

This too: http://www.bloomberg.com/image/i2EkO858Apok.jpg

All of that is Chicago, but it could just as easily be Detroit [[or Cleveland, St. Louis, Memphis).

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Originally Posted by 313WX

The South Side, where most of the blight is, still averages a population density of 20-25,000, even with the mostly depopulated englewood neighborhood.

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20-25,000 per what? Mile? That would make Englewood twice as dense as the city as a whole, and more dense than even San Francisco, the second most densely populated major city in the country.

for some reason i thought this might be a positive story and i got really exited, now im just bummed out

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

20-25,000 per what? Mile? That would make Englewood twice as dense as the city as a whole, and more dense than even San Francisco, the second most densely populated major city in the country.

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Census Tracts...

With the exception of englwood, much of the South side is still dense and intact. Most of the nighborhoods also have an average density of 20,000 people per square mile.

Chicago has blight [[every big city does), but nowhere near Detroit's level of blight, where it's literally right in your face once you exit the heart of downtown and drive down a random neighborhood block, which is why I asked you to define blighted.

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Originally Posted by 313WX

Chicago global city status is based more so around its economic output [[fourth largest GDP internationally) versus its mass transit.

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There's no way Chicago has the world's 4th largest GDP.

Chicago only has the 5th largest economy in the U.S. It trails [[in order) NYC, LA, DC and San Francisco.

And obviously there are non-U.S. cities with bigger economies than Chicago. Certainly Tokyo, Seoul, London, Paris, Sao Paulo and a few others would have bigger economies.

I could see Chicago at best around #10 globally in terms of economic output. It depends on your definition of "metropolitan area". I don't know how you do apples-to-apples comparisons across national boundaries.

But Chicago, domestically, is no bigger than the #5 economy. It was the #3 economy up to about 5-6 years ago, but DC and SF have surpassed it.

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

There's no way Chicago has the world's 4th largest GDP.

Chicago only has the 5th largest economy in the U.S. It trails [[in order) NYC, LA, DC and San Francisco.

And obviously there are non-U.S. cities with bigger economies than Chicago. Certainly Tokyo, Seoul, London, Paris, Sao Paulo and a few others would have bigger economies.

I could see Chicago at best around #10 globally in terms of economic output. It depends on your definition of "metropolitan area". I don't know how you do apples-to-apples comparisons across national boundaries.

But Chicago, domestically, is no bigger than the #5 economy. It was the #3 economy up to about 5-6 years ago, but DC and SF have surpassed it.

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Where did you get your numbers? From what I've seen, Chicago's GDP is still 3rd in the U.S. However, there is no way that it's 4th in the world. It would have to be larger than L.A., Tokyo, London and Paris.

There is SO much misinformed information on this thread.Danny's post could not have been any further from the truth. I think he copiedhis information from an old Wiki post and pasted it here. Chicago'sunemployment is at 8.6% only .04 percent higher than the nation average. Segregationthroughout the city is ALMOST a thing of the past. Chicago was listed as themost improved city in regards to improving segregation. And this is aside fromtearing down the projects and letting the section 8 recipients live in allareas of the city. Many of the minorities are college educated and transplantedfrom other cities such as Detroit. I have a friend who grew up in Chicago andvisited after being away for several years. He couldn't believe how integratedthe city had become. The current real estate market is booming in Chicago.Although prices are still down 30% in the city, people are still spending likegang-busters. The prices have gone up slightly but not very much. The rentalmarket is off the hook too. There are several blocks in Chicago that lookALMOST as bad as Detroit but not quite there yet. But you cannot really tellthe difference if you're not familiar with both cities.

Last why do people continue to compare Detroit to Chicago?It's like comparing Chicago to San Francisco or New York. They don't compare.One thing I don't understand is why a couple of people on this threadconstantly dis Chicago for being a successful big city? Detroit wishes it couldhave what Chicago has. There is nothing wrong with that. We get so excitedbecause we finally get an OLGA'S ON OUR PREMIER STREET! But then we criticizeChicago in the same breath...Why be jealous instead of giving the city itsdues? Because that's what it is... jealousy. Chicago has tons of problems rangingfrom political corruption, crime, gangs and drugs. It's not perfect but it's amore livable city that Detroit.

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Originally Posted by illwill

.One thing I don't understand is why a couple of people on this threadconstantly dis Chicago for being a successful big city? Detroit wishes it couldhave what Chicago has. There is nothing wrong with that. We get so excitedbecause we finally get an OLGA'S ON OUR PREMIER STREET! But then we criticizeChicago in the same breath...Why be jealous instead of giving the city itsdues? Because that's what it is... jealousy. Chicago has tons of problems rangingfrom political corruption, crime, gangs and drugs. It's not perfect but it's amore livable city that Detroit.

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I'll answer this one. I have been... telling the truth about Chicago in this thread because a Chicago politician felt the need to bash Detroit, and a major media outlet in Chicago felt the need to broadcast it. If Chicago is without its own inferiority issues then there should be no need to take digs at other cities in order to feel better about your own.

Chicago is one of the nation's greatest cities for sure, but it not hardly a city without its own flaws.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

I'll answer this one. I have been... telling the truth about Chicago in this thread because a Chicago politician felt the need to bash Detroit, and a major media outlet in Chicago felt the need to broadcast it. If Chicago is without its own inferiority issues then there should be no need to take digs at other cities in order to feel better about your own.

Chicago is one of the nation's greatest cities for sure, but it not hardly a city without its own flaws.

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Pot call kettle black.

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

Where did you get your numbers? From what I've seen, Chicago's GDP is still 3rd in the U.S. However, there is no way that it's 4th in the world. It would have to be larger than L.A., Tokyo, London and Paris.

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It's larger than London and Paris...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_GDP

But you are partially right, it's also the 3rd largest in the US.

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Originally Posted by wolverine

Pot call kettle black.

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Heh, without a doubt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by illwill

Chicago has tons of problems rangingfrom political corruption

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I'll say this about Chicago's politicians.

They may be quite crooked, but at least they get the job done, an by-and-large don't get caught with their hand in the cookie jar. Detroit has a deadly combination of corrupt and incompetent politicians, where the job doesn't get done and they get caught easily with their hand in the cookie jar.

In reference to the world city aspect Chicago ranks 82 whereas Detroit ranked 441.

But that was in 2011 and they thought that the population city wise was at 912,000.

http://www.citymayors.com/statistics...mayors-ad.html

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Originally Posted by Richard

In reference to the world city aspect Chicago ranks 82 whereas Detroit ranked 441.

But that was in 2011 and they thought that the population city wise was at 912,000.

http://www.citymayors.com/statistics...mayors-ad.html

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That's not what we're talking about when we say "global city". This is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city

It's not entirely a metric of population, although that is part of it. It's basically a measure of what characteristics westerners [[or better yet, the British) find important about urban areas.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iheartthed

That's not what we're talking about when we say "global city". This is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city

It's not entirely a metric of population, although that is part of it. It's basically a measure of what characteristics westerners [[or better yet, the British) find important about urban areas.

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I understand that, the link was pointing in the direction
the side menus on the site gives the rest of the rankings.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 313WX

I'll say this about Chicago's politicians.

They may be quite crooked, but at least they get the job done, an by-and-large don't get caught with their hand in the cookie jar. Detroit has a deadly combination of corrupt and incompetent politicians, where the job doesn't get done and they get caught easily with their hand in the cookie jar.

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I think that's all residents care about. Get the job done...fast. If I call my alderman about a pothole on my commute or broken glass on the sidewalk, I can expect the pothole to be fixed on my way home, and the sidewalk swept up in a matter of hours. With new electronic reporting via smartphones, the office is held accountable for everything and must resolve problem each ward resident has. If not, forget about getting re-elected. Crime on the other hand...too complex of an issue. I hold the mayor accountable on that. And whether Rahm decides to hire more police will be on my mind in this next election.

BTW, regarding world cities, few people seemed to notice Detroit received a substantial promotion in world city rankings. This changed about a year ago.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 313WX

It's larger than London and Paris...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_GDP

But you are partially right, it's also the 3rd largest in the US.

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This is all wrong.

First, that Wikipedia link is ridiculous. If you applied Census-based CSA standards to European cities, London would have 20 million people [[the entire Southeast England).

Using that standard, Chicago would have to have 2.5 times the median per capita output to match London. In reality, Chicago has lower per capita output than London.

The only way Chicago matches London is if you really, truly believe that Chicago has a bigger metropolitan population than London, which is absurd using apples-to-apples.

Second, Chicago is 5th largest economy in the U.S., per Census.

Largest economies in the U.S., by metropolitan area-

1. NYC
2. LA
3. DC
4. SF
5. Chicago
6. Boston
7. Houston
8. Philadelphia
9. Dallas
10. Atlanta


Source-
http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/regi...ewsrelease.htm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

Largest economies in the U.S., by metropolitan area-

1. NYC
2. LA
3. DC
4. SF
5. Chicago
6. Boston
7. Houston
8. Philadelphia
9. Dallas
10. Atlanta


Source-
http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/regi...ewsrelease.htm

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Ummm, did you actually read Tables 1 and 2 in your link?

http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/regi...metro0211b.pdf

Current

NYC - 1.2 Trillion
Los Angeles - 735 Billion
Chicago - 532 Billion
Washington DC - 425 Billion
San Francisco - 326 Billion

Real

NYC - 1.1 Trillion
Los Angeles - 670 Billion
Chicago - 476 Billion
Washington DC - 383 Billion
San Francisco - 296 Billion

In Nominal and Real GDP [[per YOUR link), Chicago is still number three

But don't let facts get in the way of your anti-Chicago rhetoric.

I'm not even sure where you pulled that BS list from [[probably from an unpleasant place).

My god, it even says in that link's footnotes...

2. The ten largest metropolitan areas, as measured by 2010 real GDP, are: New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island, NY-NJ-PA; Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana, CA; Chicago-Joliet-Naperville, IL-IN-WI; Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, DC-VA-MD-WV; Houston-Sugar Land-Baytown, TX; Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, TX; Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD; San Francisco-Oakland-Fremont, CA; Boston-Cambridge-Quincy, MA-NH; and Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Marietta, GA.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bham1982

This is all wrong.

First, that Wikipedia link is ridiculous. If you applied Census-based CSA standards to European cities, London would have 20 million people [[the entire Southeast England).

Using that standard, Chicago would have to have 2.5 times the median per capita output to match London. In reality, Chicago has lower per capita output than London.

The only way Chicago matches London is if you really, truly believe that Chicago has a bigger metropolitan population than London, which is absurd using apples-to-apples.

Second, Chicago is 5th largest economy in the U.S., per Census.

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Did you actually read the source for that list?

PwC came up with it, based on the urban area population designated by the United Nations [[generally, the MSAs of American cities, not CSAs, and urban areas of non-American cities) and their per-capita incomes.

Take it up with those parties if you don't like the measures, which seem fairly accurate to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolverine

I think that's all residents care about. Get the job done...fast. If I call my alderman about a pothole on my commute or broken glass on the sidewalk, I can expect the pothole to be fixed on my way home, and the sidewalk swept up in a matter of hours. With new electronic reporting via smartphones, the office is held accountable for everything and must resolve problem each ward resident has. If not, forget about getting re-elected. Crime on the other hand...too complex of an issue. I hold the mayor accountable on that. And whether Rahm decides to hire more police will be on my mind in this next election.

BTW, regarding world cities, few people seemed to notice Detroit received a substantial promotion in world city rankings. This changed about a year ago.

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Wow!

You call the alderman to have glass swept up? Is that how you guys are living on the Northside? No wonder people are flocking to Chicago like crazy...if you call someone to have glass swept up. No wonder taxes are so high in Chicago.

But that is service!

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Originally Posted by illwill

Wow!

You call the alderman to have glass swept up? Is that how you guys are living on the Northside? No wonder people are flocking to Chicago like crazy...if you call someone to have glass swept up. No wonder taxes are so high in Chicago.

But that is service!

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In all seriousness, who would do it otherwise? Same goes for graffiti. If someone tags up your business or home, you can call the city to have it removed at no cost to you, and it's done quickly. These cleanup services are paid by ticketed violators of vandalism or littering.

In certain downtown areas, block security, sidewalk sweeping and powerwashing, seasonal planting are pooled resources from area businesses or condo buildings.

Good lord... you people are arguing over Wikipedia statistics?? Which half of your brain are you using? ;)

I just checked the "dubious" statistics... and it mentions 7.8 million people for London... under the Price Waterhouse listing. However, if you look up London in Wikipedia, it says city population of 7.8 million... but if you check the number for metro London, it says 13.7 million...

Wonder why those 5.9 million people in metro London generate zero GDP...

Nuff said... stop using Wiki as a debatable reference source! :mad:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolverine

In all seriousness, who would do it otherwise? Same goes for graffiti. If someone tags up your business or home, you can call the city to have it removed at no cost to you, and it's done quickly. These cleanup services are paid by ticketed violators of vandalism or littering.

In certain downtown areas, block security, sidewalk sweeping and powerwashing, seasonal planting are pooled resources from area businesses or condo buildings.

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get your own broom and dustpan or a shop vac. really, is it that hard? In NYC, store owners cleaned the sidewalks in front of their stores, and apt. building maintenance crews did so for their sidewalks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rb336

get your own broom and dustpan or a shop vac. really, is it that hard? In NYC, store owners cleaned the sidewalks in front of their stores, and apt. building maintenance crews did so for their sidewalks.

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Yes, I could. But that takes time that could be spent doing something else when a phone call or text message takes maybe a minute and a city employee is put to work.

I'm not saying homeless people throwing trash on the ground creates job security but there's people employed to clean it up. I'd prefer not to take their job.

Additionally, I'd prefer my building maintenance work on the building that I pay rent to live in, not cleaning the alley which the building behind us should also be obligated to assist. That's why this is a city service and the alderman offices have staff to dispatch crews.