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And the white folks will continue to claim that black folks should stop worrying so much about racism. As one of the Detnews commenters said, this kind of thing is learned behavior.
A shameful display from a highly regarded Catholic school. It will be interesting to see if there is a public response.
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120313/OPINION03/203130328/Detroit-King-s-comfortable-win-turns-uncomfortable?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE
Wasn't there a similar expression of poor sportsmanship by Catholic Central alumni this past football season when they were upset by a Detroit team? You would think a Catholic school would have a higher moral code than these expressions.
As a De La Salle graduate I'm not surprised by this and think it is definitely poor spirited and is a sad byproduct of the school's culture. It's really more of a public versus private school chant than it is racist. Still terrible in any regard...
"We've got futures. We've got futures."Later they chanted: "Flip our burgers. And you are stupid."
Call them elitists, but I don't get the racism angle.
Is it inconceivable that those chants could be made at a game against a team from Hazel Park or Hamtramck? Just because King is a overwelmingly black school a charge of racism is tossed around?
Years ago I read about the chants that Northwesten college used when they were getting blown out in Big Ten games. Things such as 'You'll being working for us some day' and other similiar chants.
Wow, disgusting!
I like sports but they seem to bring out the worst in spectators rather than the best, more often than not...
There is a little irony here, too. Okay, DLS is a good private school but it isn't the Grosse Pointe Academy or Roeper School. It's a junky old working class Catholic school in a junky old working class suburb, to be frank. I think their air of superiority is a bit misplaced.
What a misleading and pathetic article, both sides were doing the same thing. It happens at all games between rival students.
After the game this pic was taken, show me tha hate.Attachment 12293
Actually DLS is a parochial school not a private school and yes its pretty much what you described. GP academy is a grade school not a high school. University Liggett School is the only private high school in GP.Quote:
Originally Posted by poobert
"a junky old working class Catholic school in a junky old working class suburb"
Quite a statement coming from someone who probably lives in Detroit, a delapidated city where carjackings and the murder of young babies is the norm. Those types of things do not happen in Warren and the graduation rate at DLS is 99.9%, the students normally go on to college and become productive members of the community.
Chill out. I am Catholic and went to a working class Catholic school myself. I am a firm believer in Catholic education and my kids will be subjected to it as I was. Detroit [[where I live) and DPS are completely and utterly fucked, you are also correct. But for DLS to shout such demeaning classist [[and probably backhandedly racist) garbage is not only dispicable, but there are a lot of schools in the region better than them from better-off communities who could just as easily put them down as well. Point being, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, especially totally unprovoked and counter to any idea of sportsmanship [[not to mention the religion their school professes).Quote:
Originally Posted by Buy American
Nothing against Warren, but as I have said before the inner ring burbs, while not nearly as bad as much of Detroit, are facing many similar issues on a smaller scale [[forclosure, abandonment, blight, increased crime, municipal deficits, loss of tax base and employment centers) so I wouldn't be so quick to distance Warren from Detroit, either. We're all in this together, especially city and inner ring. It isn't 1990 anymore. Screaming those derisions as DLS did is not just shameful but very misplaced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by swingline
As others have said, I fail to see the racial overtones in the tasteless chants attributed to the crowd. In fact, I vividly remember similar chants from the the audience when I attended high school games and most of those were out in the "exburbs" where 99% of the players on the court were white.
Chants at sporting events aren't said to make a logical point, they're said to get under the skin of the opponent or the opponents fans. As mentioned by someone who was there both sides were doing it and it escaladed to classless comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by poobert
They're high school kids, it's going to happen.
Really ? Last I checked tuition is well over $7k per year. I didn't know that's considered realistically affordable for the "working class" even with tuition assistance.
Now, when DLS was still in Detroit on Conner across the street from the airport their was truth in that statement. The school was made up of mostly working class Catholic kids from the east side of Detroit. However, those were the days when tuition was much less expensive even when you account for inflation since the Christian Brothers made up the majority of faculty. However, DLS left Detroit 30 years ago.
For many years now, many of the fathers that send their sons there are professionals or work in well paying white collar occupations. It's not like the 1960's anymore, where a line worker at Dodge Main living at 6 Mile & Van Dyke sends his son there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by poobert
You should hear what the Harvard and Yale students yell at each other every year at "The Game."
Most Catholic HS are now in the $8-9k range.Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSpartan
With inflation added in the HS I went to in the 80's is now more than twice as much to attend. That's why so many Catholic schools have been closing. Even many the ones that are still open are nowhere close to the enrollment they had decades ago.
Oh, I certainly believe that statement. For the 1965-66 school year the cost for tuition at De La Salle was either $225 or $250. Granted, their has been inflation over the years. However, with inflation that is nowhere near $8-9k.
Actually, I decided to use one of those inflation calculators out of curiousity. I plugged in $250 for 1965 and then picked the year of 2005 to see what that translates to in terms of amount. According to the purchasing power calculator the amount is $1,550.00
The big difference between today and back then is that in those days they had enough Christian Brothers and Nuns to teach. Basically, they were a cheap source of labor. In the 1960's, the Catholic schools were a reason for some Catholics to stay in the city. When the costs starting increasing substanstially they were a reason for some working class Catholics to get out and put their kids in suburban public schools.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjk
I looked up the cost of DLS. $8,700 per year. 30% of the students receive financial aid at an average of $3,000 per student.
Catholic Central is $9,800 and Brother Rice is $10,350.
The difference is that Northwestern is generally renowned for its top rated academics and high achieving alumni when compared to most other Big 10 schools. Is DeLaSalle known for producing above average graduates? King HS is...Quote:
Originally Posted by rjk
If DLS doesn't have the reputation of being an elite institution then on what basis would the students start making elitist chants? It being a predominantly white and suburban high school playing a predominantly black inner city high school, it's not hard to infer what basis the elitism was built on...
This was a class-based assault, not race-based.
Anyway, why would someone say, "Flip our burgers. And you are stupid." That's not even syntactically correct. I think they were misquoted.
Terry Foster was quoted in the News online comment section stating that the story wasnt racist. So would that make it bullying? Well the bully got his butt wiped good. Was it immature high school kids being stupid? Maybe.
I think it was merely Terry hyping his radio show. Ratings, isnt this what it is all about.
This prediction turned out to be accurate, I see.Quote:
Originally Posted by swingline
I've heard it is still good, but yes, De La Salle was considered was one of the very best Catholic schools when it was in Detroit. It was one of the schools U of M actually gave bonus G.P.A. points for attending.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
When I went to catholic school, there was no way in hell our student cheering section would get away with chants like the ones at this b-ball game. Our asses would've spent the next month doing tray and trash duty in the cafeteria. Failure falls into the lap of school administration, who otherwise seem to have no problem policing what their students do outside of school, on social networking sites, etc.
Most Catholic school kids nationally don't pay full tuition. Many pay almost nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSpartan
The tuition could be 70k per year, doesn't mean the demographics aren't largely working class.
De La Salle hasn't been a working class school in years, especially since they left Detroit. A large number of the kids are from more affluent areas of Macomb County.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
I'll take your word for it, but I'll admit I'm surprised. Catholic schools were always known for educating working class kids, and Warren nowadays is very, very blue collar.Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSpartan
Maybe they all live in Rochester Hills or in those new subdivisions going up north of Hall Road.
Please tell where these schools are!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
I'm a 1993 DeLaSalle alum --- this is NOT THE FIRST TIME my school has made the front page of the sports section for idiocy.
I can't recall the details, but in either 1991 or 1992 we played Detroit DePorres in the Catholic League Final down at Calihan Hall. DePorres was better, they beat us by a bunch. BUT, during the game, the students [[I was in the student section for this game, but not chanting), started chanting "PROP 48" at DePorres star player. I can't recall said player's name, but [[1) he was black, and [[2) he was going to a high-profile college the next year to play b-ball. Proposition 48 is an NCAA regulation that says an incoming freshman must have a minimum GPA and SAT scores in order to be eligible for athletic competiton his first year.
Classless chant. Even MORE classless, considering the player wasn't even close to being a Proposition 48 case. DLS got trashed by Mick McCabe on the front page of the next day's Free Press Sports section, and deservedly so. I'd look up the details in the old papers at a library, but I'm not in Metro Detroit these days. But this DEFINITELY happened.
Anyway, this 2012 event, frankly, is 0% surprising to me. The chants fit the culture of entitlement and thinly veiled racism that I remember being pervasive among the student body in my days. Bummer from a Catholic school and what should be a leader in our community.
Wow, rich Catholic School kids are arrogant? I'm shocked. I'm going to go push this camel through this needle now. Good day.
Pretty much everywhere. Catholic schools were generally established to educate working class Catholic ethnics, often of immigrant stock.Quote:
Originally Posted by eastland
Even today, they largely educate a similar demographic, though many of the schools have shifted to immigrants of Latino descent.
How about Brother Rice and the old Austin, which was filled with Grosse Pointe kids?Quote:
Catholic schools were always known for educating working class kids,...
Granted, parochial schools will, to some extent, mirror the demographics of their surroundings.Quote:
Originally Posted by GPCharles
I don't know about Austin, but Brother Rice certainly doesn't serve a working class demographic.
That said, I bet you Brother Rice serves a lower-income demographic than the surrounding school districts [[Bloomfield & Birmingham). In this part of town, the parochial schools are less affluent than the public schools, though the nonsecretarian private schools are more affluent than the publics.
In looking at the high schools in the AOD, the average tuition is $9200. The most expensive being Academy of the Sacred Heart in Bloomfield Hills with it's cost of $21,270. The least expensive is Loyola in Detroit at $4,100 per year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
Austin Academy is $6,750. Brother Rice is $10,350. I think the demographics of the school location do reflect the area. The more affluent schools are in the more affluent areas. Brother Rice, Marian, Mercy, Everest Collegiate, OLSM, NDP are all over $10K/yr. The less expensive schools are in more so working class areas. These are Loyola, Cabrini, Gabriel Richard, Divine Child, WOLL are all under $6500/yr. The rest all range from $6500-$10K/yr. For the most part, it seems that the tuition reflects the area with the exceptions, IMO, of DeLaSalle, NDP, & U-D Jesuit.
I didn't include Christo Rey because their tuition is based on a sliding scale of household income. A big part of their funding comes from corporate partnerships.
Also, even though Loyola only charges $4100/yr, their cost is actually $14,400/student. They also seem to get sponsorships for students to defray their costs. If you take Loyola out of the picture, the least expensive becomes Cabrini in Allen Park at $4790/yr.
Please cite your reference for this because I along with all the parents at my child's school would love to know how we can do this too. Or is this just a supposition?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bham1982
Who cares? I went to Catholic Central and when we got scored on we would chant "It's alright, it's okay, you will work for me some day!" And it would go back and forth from each side. Why is race always brought up? Everyone's so bloody sensitive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Planner3357
Context is everything. It's not oversensitivity to expect high school students to understand the context of this situation. Would it be okay for the fans of a suburban school playing Cesar Chavez Academy to chant "Trim my bushes" or "Pick my tomatoes" just because there's no consequence to making that chant during a game with the local rival down the street?
Why do people look for anything throw the race card out?Quote:
Originally Posted by 1953
Agreed, and not just in this instance.Quote:
Originally Posted by poobert
Why do so many white people look for any excuse to ignore obvious instances of racism?Quote:
Originally Posted by jerrytimes
Quote:
Originally Posted by antongast
I think Swingline got it right. The "you'll be working for us some day" is nothing new. The problem here is the context. Of course, these are kids and insensitivity is nothing new with kids.
But, from your apparent perspective, this is especially true of white kids, whose racist parents have raised them to be racists themselves, and to display their proud racism at sporting events with racist chants cloaked as classist, insensitive chants. Because that's how it is with white folks.
How did you ever get all of that from what he said?Quote:
Originally Posted by bartock
Why are 90% of your posts to me questions?Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
and, I read other posts.
Maybe you should ask that of yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by bartock
Whatever gave you that idea? I was talking about the posters in this thread, not the DLS kids.Quote:
Originally Posted by bartock
And I don't think the kids [[or the posters) are necessarily "proud" of their racism, or even aware of it, and I have no idea how their parents raised them. What I do think is that being raised in a white man's world gives white men [[and I'm certainly not exempt here) a certain distorted perspective about how the world works that makes it difficult to view other people as people, along with a stubborn unwillingness to acknowledge that fact when it's pointed out.
Or, as Coleman Young [[who certainly made some perceptive observations in his time, whatever one thinks of his tenure as mayor) put it, "Racism is something like high blood pressure -- the person who has it doesn't know he has it until he drops over with a goddamned stroke. There are no symptoms of racism. The victim of racism is in a much better position to tell you whether or not you're a racist than you are."
just happen to see this:
"The latest incident of fan stupidity came Thursday in an East Region matchup between the University of Southern Mississippi and Kansas State. When K-State's Angel Rodriguez, who is from Puerto Rico, stepped to the free throw line in the first half, some members of the Southern Miss pep band began to chant, "Where's your green card?"
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31751_16...en-card-chant/
Nah, my take on most rhetoric is that it is...nevermind.Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
Quote:
Originally Posted by antongast
I was referring to the "obvious instance of racism" thing. Classist and insensitive, yes. "Racism", no. You and I perhaps differ on our definitions. And yes, I'm white, but not sure that my perception of the world is any more or less distorted than the next person, of any color.
One interesting historic footnote is that Coleman Young was admitted to DeLaSalle. However, when he arrived in person to enroll he was turned away due to his race. The legend is that one of the Brothers [[I.e. The Christian Brothers) asked him if he was Hawaiian.
I can picture the response. "What, Im not Goddamed Hawaiian"Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulGall
You and most other folks in this thread. Which brings me back to my original point.Quote:
Originally Posted by bartock
Well you don't have much of a perception of what racism is to a non-white person if you have never spent a single second of your life as a non-white person. Men have little perception of sexism from a woman's vantage point. Rich people, who have never been poor, have little perception of classism from a poor person's vantage point. And a white person, who has never lived as a person of color, has little perception of racism from a POC's vantage point.Quote:
Originally Posted by bartock
People have a capacity for empathy. Sure a white person doesn't really know what a black person goes through, but by that same logic neither does a black person know what another black person goes through. In your eyes we are all islands incapable of understanding any other shoreline but our own. A very pessimistic stance to take, and one I don't think is worth the heartburn.Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
No, I am not saying that a white person is incapable of empathy for what a black person might be enduring through an act of racism. A man can empathize with a woman who is going through a menstrual cycle, but no natural born male will ever know what a menstrual cycle feels like.Quote:
Originally Posted by ResurgetCineribus
My point is that bartock's statement was extremely presumptuous. He's not acknowledging that he might have a huge blind spot on matters of race, which was the main point of antagonast's original statement.
You are stereotyping and judging someone you know nothing about, the fact of which also brings you back to your original point.Quote:
Originally Posted by antongast
To me, this is one of the dumbest things I've ever read. But, to your position, some idiot just tried to justify calling me racist. So, I guess between you and that, you two will feel fine. Good for you two, keep the synergy up. I'll sleep fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
I find it ironic that my sarcastic response to others' presumptions become mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed
Why would you think that?Quote:
Originally Posted by eno
I graduated from DLS in '65. The school back then was different. There weren't more than 8-10 lay teachers in the school, the remainder were the "black robed brothers" and many were older. You could count on a higher form of discipline from the FSC guys. I doubt they would have tolerated this behavior from the student body. Many of today's parents are the yuppies and even though the boys are at DLS they probably put up with more shit from the kids. Just my $.02 worth!
Not to reignite the flames, but this was just way too relevant to not add it to this discussion:
http://www.timwise.org/2012/03/trayv...ss-in-america/Quote:
Indeed, if you do not know that Martin’s race [[and more to the point, Zimmerman’s racism) is central to the former’s death at the hands of the latter, it may well be that you are incapable of ever comprehending even the most obvious manifestations of this nation’s longstanding racial drama. Worse still, it may suggest that you are so bereft of empathy as to render you morally and emotionally dangerous to decent people.
And by empathy here, I don’t mean merely the ability to feel for the family of this murdered child. I’m guessing most all can manage that much. Rather, I refer to the kind of empathy too rarely attainable, by whites in particular, in the case of black folks who insist, based on their entire life experience and the insight gained from that experience, that their rights to life and liberty are too often subject to the capricious whims of those with less melanin than they, and for reasons owing explicitly to the color of their skin.
Empathy — real empathy, not the situational and utterly phony kind that most any of us can muster when social convention calls for it — requires that one be able to place oneself in the shoes of another, and to consider the world as they must consider it. It requires that we be able to suspend our own culturally-ingrained disbelief long enough to explore the possibility that perhaps the world doesn’t work as we would have it, but rather as others have long insisted it did.
I'm not the biggest Tim Wise fan but he's spot on right there.
It appears that DeLaSalle stepped up to repair some of the damage caused by its students' poor display a couple of weeks ago. Participating in an event at MLK HS rather than just issuing some sort of written apology was a good call. Well done. http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...ON03/203280348Quote:
Originally Posted by swingline