The age of reason has never been a part of Detroit's psyche

I will soon be seventy six and I recall, as a child, a woman who drove her electric car to church every Sunday. Quietly it passed through the streets of Grosse Pointe, a potted palm resting from floor to top in what would have been the passenger side and she, the driver, seated on what appeared to be a curved love seat.

The invention of the electric car is not new. It's conception was killed by an industry so tied to oil that any thought or ideas or inventions which relied on alternative methods for transportation were firmly destroyed.

When we consider the cost that the nation has paid to protect oil interests, one can easily conclude that had those costs gone instead to maintaining our inner cities, high education standards, affordable and energy efficient homes and buildings, lower tax burdens, universal health care and college educations for all who are worthy and capable of reaching graduate goals. Instead, we continue to spend money on wars and missions impossible in the middle east and while doing so, we manage to aid emerging nations while ignoring the needs that are vividly clear when we drive through places like Detroit.

As long as Detroit and Michigan itself resists going green, the age of reason will remain an enigma and the people who live in all inner cities will continue to live without hope.

Welcome to the forum, Judy.

Although depressing, that was one of the best first posts I've ever read here. You obviously put some work into it.

Were you referring specifically to Thomas Paine's The Age of Reason? I'm guessing not.

Sincerely.

I've always thought that anything or anybody from east of Woodward was worthless [[especially GP) because of elitist attitudes. Yep, I know there are holes in my logic [[mom grew up in State Fair/Charleston neighborhood). However, my years of experience as a west sider venturing across the divide have always confirmed this. Until now.

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Originally Posted by Lt. Dan Bassett

I've always thought that anything or anybody from east of Woodward was worthless [[especially GP) because of elitist attitudes. Yep, I know there are holes in my logic [[mom grew up in State Fair/Charleston neighborhood). However, my years of experience as a west sider venturing across the divide have always confirmed this. Until now.

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We Eastsiders are not elitists... we just cannot abide people who think they're better than everyone else... it makes it that much harder for those of us that really are! :cool:

Interesting first post. I must submit that my thinking lies in the area that if green was attractive economics, we wouldn't be talking about it but doing it. At least in the short term.

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Originally Posted by judymcfarlane

The invention of the electric car is not new. It's conception was killed by an industry so tied to oil that any thought or ideas or inventions which relied on alternative methods for transportation were firmly destroyed.

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Typical West Coast elitist propaganda.

Detroit isn't the problem, American consumers are.

No. from my memories. I left Michigan at age 20 and when I returned for my first visit, age 30, Detroit was already in a slide, so, around 1966. Next and last visit for my father's death, my age 40, Detroit was in the dumps. I do occassionally, but reluctantly, hear from friends who also grew up in the Pointe and remained there until retirement. They go back often and what infuriates me is their comments re: Detroit. "Grosse Pointe hasn't changed one bit since our high school days. Still wonderful. You really don't even notice Detroit."

I tell them that maybe there lies a major problem, but it goes right over their "upright" heads!

yeah, well, I left at age 20 and have nothing in common with those who never left GP, are still there, and still believe that Detroit doesn't exist. God, even as a teen, crossing the city limits and the Wall, I wondered, "How come everyone on this other side doesn't come over the wall and kill us?"

I wish I belonged to the group, elitist, lilup. I left Michigan at age 20 and have returned just three times in 56 years because living in the west is easier unless you live in the inner cities and this is true of our entire nation. The inner cities have been totally neglected even in the "WEST". As a nation we squander our money, hell, even Paris could probably get more aid, if asked for, then places like Detroit, Cleveland, Chicago and even in places like the capital of Calif. By the way, I live on the Oregon coast and my county has the highest unemployment in Oregon and I live on social security after, at almost age 76, simply could not work any longer.

I don't think that we Americans like to think long term. Which is why we're still where we are. We just don't seem capable of being patient for more than one week at a time, let alone long term goals.

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Originally Posted by lilpup

Typical West Coast elitist propaganda.

Detroit isn't the problem, American consumers are.

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I don't know lilpup, it's hard for consumers to decide what they want and then expect them to show up on the market. I think if the economy was stronger we'd be seeing more sales of electric and hybrid cars. Then the price would go down and the technology would likely improve. I realize it's still a tough sell, but it is happening. Unfortunately we're still at the 4 pound $5000 cell phone stage.

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Originally Posted by judymcfarlane

I will soon be seventy six and I recall, as a child, a woman who drove her electric car to church every Sunday. Quietly it passed through the streets of Grosse Pointe, a potted palm resting from floor to top in what would have been the passenger side and she, the driver, seated on what appeared to be a curved love seat.

The invention of the electric car is not new. It's conception was killed by an industry so tied to oil that any thought or ideas or inventions which relied on alternative methods for transportation were firmly destroyed.

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Judy, I am 72 and also living on SS plus a couple of pensions.

If there had been a technological breakthrough in batteries, the electric car might have had a different future. It wasn't just in cars. Many devices that consume electricity and which must be independent of the grid do not reach their full potential because of the limitations of battery life. We have made advances in the minaturization of batteries [[remember cell phones the size of a brick?), but we are not there yet. You cannot keep your laptop operating for very long without access to a 110V socket. Your iPod, iPad, and cell phone have a finite life away from the grid. Now try to power a car for any meaningful distance with a battery.

During WWII, the navy needed more powerful and longer-lived batteries for their submarines. They finally went to a snorkel and then to nuke power because of the shortfalls in battery technology.

Think of how much cheaper light rail would be with battery-powered cars instead of overhead wire. Battery powered streetcars [[and buses) have been tried in the past, but always came up short.

The Chevy Volt is expensive and appears is not quite ready for prime time as there have been battery problems.

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Originally Posted by Hermod

Judy, I am 72 and also living on SS plus a couple of pensions.

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...and you think the government spends too much money?

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/e...4/facepalm.jpg

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Originally Posted by antongast

...and you think the government spends too much money?

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/e...4/facepalm.jpg

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You're going to get that type of logic from majority of senior citizens.

All government spending is too much until their SS and Medicare are impacted.

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Originally Posted by antongast

...and you think the government spends too much money?

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Yes I do. I have been there and seen it. You turn me loose in any gummint office at any level with a copy of their org chart and a stack of non-recourse pink slips and i will save you a bundle on personnel costs without affecting the work being done. Hell, i would work for free for the Detroit EFM in reviewing the clowncil staffs.

Read "Parkinson's Law sometime and you will see how government employment grows without regard to the work to be done. They gerrymander offices to jack up the authorized grades, They upgrade their secretaries to admin assistants while the work stays the same.

So Judy, what kind of electric car do you have now, how long have you had it and would you buy one for your first grandchild?

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Originally Posted by Hermod

Yes I do. I have been there and seen it. You turn me loose in any gummint office at any level with a copy of their org chart and a stack of non-recourse pink slips and i will save you a bundle on personnel costs without affecting the work being done. Hell, i would work for free for the Detroit EFM in reviewing the clowncil staffs.

Read "Parkinson's Law sometime and you will see how government employment grows without regard to the work to be done. They gerrymander offices to jack up the authorized grades, They upgrade their secretaries to admin assistants while the work stays the same.

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That's a separate issue from whether we should be investing in transit [[what did you call it? Toonerville Trolley?) here in my city where I live, so that my neighbors and I can go places. You resent having to pay taxes to help me get around? Maybe I resent having to pay taxes to keep you fed and clothed and housed with a computer and an Internet connection and plenty of free time to spout off on DetroitYes about how much contempt you have for Detroit and its residents. Just saying.

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Read "Parkinson's Law sometime and you will see how government employment grows without regard to the work to be done. They gerrymander offices to jack up the authorized grades, They upgrade their secretaries to admin assistants while the work stays the same.

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There is certainly some truth to this, but that is often the result of badly thought out pay schemes, not because they are overpaying the administrative assistants [[and there really aren't any secretaries anymore--long gone.)

But I have to agree about the electric cars; electricity storage turns out to be a much harder problem than burning gasoline. Of course, people have been working on improving internal combustion engines pretty continuously for over 100 years. Until recent years, nothing like that much effort was put into batteries or other electrical storage devices, so I'm still hoping someone will come up with something that is effective.

Not true - battery technology has also been substantially improved over the years thanks to a lot of R&D, but it still isn't large scale/long duration viable in a cost effective manner yet.

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Originally Posted by antongast

...and you think the government spends too much money?

[/IMG]

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Was that Captain Picard [[sp)? Please explain what that's supposed to mean.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/facepalm

Thanks Fryar. So that's [[meme) what my son was talking to me about yesterday. I was nodding my head and pretending I was comprehending what he was saying. I guess I'm gettin' old.

Not to threadjack, but on the subject of memes, this one is pretty good, regarding the use of pepper spray on UC Berkely/Occupy protesters: Sunday in the Park With U.C. Campus Cops
- and be sure to also check out the video [["this link") at the site.

Yeah, it's a trip to keep up with all of the new image terrain and subtle and not subtle meanings therein.

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Originally Posted by ordinary

Thanks Fryar. So that's [[meme) what my son was talking to me about yesterday. I was nodding my head and pretending I was comprehending what he was saying. I guess I'm gettin' old.

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Originally Posted by antongast

...and you think the government spends too much money?

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I haven't gotten my SS forecast for the new year as of today, but I did get my wife's forecast:

Social Security Benefit: $569.70
Medicare Part B Deduction: $319.70
Monthly SS Check: $250.00

Mine is a bit larger, but I still end up with only about $350 in my SS Check.

So the two of us pay about $640 a month for our Medicare Part B.

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Originally Posted by mwilbert

TBut I have to agree about the electric cars; electricity storage turns out to be a much harder problem than burning gasoline. Of course, people have been working on improving internal combustion engines pretty continuously for over 100 years. Until recent years, nothing like that much effort was put into batteries or other electrical storage devices, so I'm still hoping someone will come up with something that is effective.

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When I was working in R&D for the Army, the logistics of recharging batteries for the proliferation of all of the night vision goggles, navigation devices, thermal sights, etc was overwhelming. The military was feverishly working on battery technology. I would imagine that the laptop computer, iPad, Kindle, iPod, and cell phone industries are spending a lot of money on battery technology as well.

Go by a golf course and see how many golf carts are hooked up to the grid. You don't think they might be working on battery technology?

The auto companies didn't abandon battery cars and go to internal combustion because they were in love with the oil companies, they did it because ICE improvements seemed more achievable than battery improvements over the near time frame.

If we truly made a breakthrough in batteries, electric cars would be very simple, durable, and inexpensive.

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Originally Posted by judymcfarlane

The invention of the electric car is not new. It's conception was killed by an industry so tied to oil that any thought or ideas or inventions which relied on alternative methods for transportation were firmly destroyed.

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Electric cars went away because the energy density of gasoline is orders of magnitude greater than the most efficient battery man can produce [[which are exotic and expensive gold-foil mega-capacitors used in solar endurance racers.) Batteries also, historically, don't do well in extreme, or even semi-extreme climates. This is one of the reasons why the EV1 was piloted in LA.

Now that lithium-polymer batteries are coming down in price, and gas is still relatively expensive, you'll see more electric cars available. Until recently, the technology, nor demand, just hasn't been there.

Okay, but what has the price of gas cost us considering what we have spent for protecting oil interests for the past, just the past 10 decades?

When I was in my 20's, living in Los Angeles, there was a movement for rapid transit, but it was voted down when it reached voters. Fifty years ago rapid trasit was voted down because it would cost too much, people were told. So L.A. built more and more roads, developers reached further and further out, people commuted more miles, more gas used and now, half a century later L.A. is, I've been told, doing what should have been accomplished half a century ago. Same situation in most of the nation. Give me the math, please. And while doing so, tell me which groups led the fight against mass transportation which would have saved, not just fuel, but also landcapes which were turned into strip malls and concrete.

Judy, you are really out of your depth here. Stop trying to preach to us, we know this shit better than you do.

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Originally Posted by lilpup

Judy, you are really out of your depth here. Stop trying to preach to us, we know this shit better than you do.

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Oh stop it.

It's quite a relief to get a perspective of things from someone outside Michigan.

Some of us don't live under a rock, are VERY familiar with "outside" perspectives, and are not willing to tolerate being scapegoated for others' irresponsible behavior.

Michigan certainly isn't the state with 56,000+ sq ft mansions!

I don't live in Calif. I detested it. If I felt comfortable living in cities, I would choose Detroit over most cities in the entire nation. I also love Michigan with all my heart. But, I cannot possibly live on social security with any comfort or dignity in Michigan or any states which tax everything one needs just to survive. I lived for 25 years in Montana in a "town" of 100 people, no one of wealth, most were low income, but all living decently because in Montana, and now in Oregon where I found my place of retirement, there are no sales taxes, utilities are low and both states have excellent family and senior housing for low income people plus well run services and life is not frantic or frightening. But, were I to give map directions to the young, I'd point them to Detroit. I really would. I believe your city is going to shine.

lovelacedevelopment.com/properties/gphousing.phpCached

hit on properties. The low income properties where I live, families paying as little as $60.00 a month. Seniors, where I live at Pelican's Perch, paying no more than 1/3 our SS income. No sales taxes on anything we purchase. Low cost co op utilities. And guess what. Of the 24 units in Pelican's Perch, Brookings Oregon, 1/4 of the residents are from Michigan. I'm from Grosse Pointe, but left at age 20. The woman in the next apartment is from Lavonia. One of the gentlemen on the 2nd floor grew up in South Detroit and still another is from Grand Rapids. But, forget the aged who moved to make ends meet. My county has 13% unemployment, down from 15% [[think some simply walked into the ocean until the waves took them out to sea - thus aren't counted), but even the poor can live in decent housing paying as little as $60.00 a month with full health benefits, dental insurance, cash assistance and food stamps and no one here is grabbing purses to survive. They don't have to.

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Originally Posted by judymcfarlane

One of the gentlemen on the 2nd floor grew up in South Detroit and still another is from Grand Rapids.

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Woah.."South Detroit"? You mean the place Journey sang about is real??