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Bing looks to put Demolition Jackson in charge of the Woodward Light Rail project. Can't we get a real transit authority to run these operations? What does Jackson know about transit?
Detroit could turn over management of light-rail project to group of experts
I wonder how it would effect relations with the suburban portion of the line. I see a fight coming.
Fire George Jackson ASAP
I'm wondering what DYes-ers think about this... GJ is pretty low on the favorite persons list. I don't see how this would be a negative for the suburban portion of the line... DEGC would be much more inclined to appreciate the value to downtown business to have the line extend past 8 Mile, where many employees are coming from.
Not sure how this impacts the RTA talk, since DEGC won't be able to levy a regional tax like an RTA would. Seems like securing more reliable funding than the Detroit City Council whims to support $10-$14M/year operating is [[as pointed out in the article) one of the big hurdles that is still up in the air.
I heard Pugh on the radio talking about transportation yesterday.
It sounds like the council[[or at least Pugh) is pushing for a regional authority to prepare for additional lines.
Don't know if he's talking out of his ass or he's privy to unannounced details.
Will the DEGC operate the line or simply facilitate the line getting built? The former seems to go beyond their purview, but the latter falls in line with what they do. And contrary to a lot of the opinions that have been cast about George Jackson and the DEGC, they actually do an excellent job at getting projects going.
Oh yeah! In your face haters.
http://cmsimg.freep.com/apps/pbcsi.d...W=640&Border=0
George Jackson, head of the Detroit Economic Growth Corp., and his experts could take over. The DEGC, respected by corporate and city leaders, is known for getting things done.
"And contrary to a lot of the opinions that have been cast about George Jackson and the DEGC, they actually do an excellent job at getting projects going."
What experience or expertise does Demolition Jackson or anyone over at DEGC have with pulling off a transit project of this scale?
As much as DYes seems to hate GJ, he is exactly what suburbanites can work with. Loves big scale projects, not to into historic preservation [[sadly) and looks at most things from a business only standpoint. This could improve suburban relations on the project. As much as I cant stand the man, this would be a good decision and take away alot of the Bing-Council squabbling.
Actually...Quote:
Originally Posted by Flintoid
DEGC would be fantastic for managing construction of Woodward Light Rail for the EXACT same reasons many people on here despise them:
DEGC counts beans. Nothing more.
Just don't let them have anything to do with planning or designing the damned thing.
I would assert that 'counting beans' makes for dull slow growing cities.......and vwhalla! that's what we've got here
Agreed. I'm not a DEGC fanboy either, but if you want suburban support, you need someone who can think like investors, talk to investors, and bridge the gap across 8 mile. The Westin Book Cadillac involved over 20 different lenders with different tiers of risk and subordination...it was only because of the DEGC that this could get done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flintoid
My official position is that I wish had a Regional Transit Authority to manage the project. But we don't. In the interim, I'd think DEGC is about as close as we can get. At least that will be easier for Detroiters to swallow than having Patterson and Bouchard pick their people.
Hmph, well, I guess you can't hate the guy for doing his job. A little more community consideration wouldn't hurt though [[sort of going off-topic).
Exactly. But by being nothing but a bean counter with no vision, the design will be driven by the beans.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
I don't think that's fair [[the "no vision" part), but anyhow I think a project of this scale should have some strong budget-minded types keeping it on track. These sorts of projects tend to be undermanaged and grow and grow cost-wise. So I think this is, overall, probably a good thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by bailey
The way the tea leaves look to me, I foresee that DEGC would oversee construction of the line, but by the time comes to operate it, some sort of RTA will be in place. I don't have any special knowledge of this; it just seems to be the way the wind is blowing.
When I saw "group of experts" in the headline, I thought the people would be "expert" in rail transit. Maybe engineers from Spain, such as those profiled in the recent PBS documentary about Detroit and transit? No. Jackson.
We're doomed. Get this guy out of here.
And last i checked the 'bean counters' were throwing away things worth many many beans to the city history and the right developers. Bean-Priceless things. The problem is they don't understand what value is and how many beans its worth.
Yes... but that was AFTER they did a 180 degree turn... for some time prior to that they wanted to just "rip down that dinosaur".Quote:
Originally Posted by corktownyuppie
sigh... I guess we'll see what happens-- or what doesn't happen. In the long term, a genuine regional authority must be created. I can see certain people holding on to the notion that this should be a "detroit thing only", however long it takes for the construction to be facilitated. "People Mover 2" isn't good enough. There need to be lines started along Gratiot, Michigan Ave., and Grand River [[for starters). For whatever it's worth, I have to say I wouldn't mind seeing Gov. Snyder taking a hardline with the principals and telling them if they don't get an authority in place, the federal/state money/support is blown.. I have no idea how realistic that is, though, lol.. ;)
The DEGC has experience pulling together a number of sophisticated projects of large scales. Now, if you're more comfortable with City Council and the Mayor running the project, more power to you. Just keep in mind that three of the council members can't manage their own fiances well enough to keep up with their house payments, even with household incomes that exceed six figures. And the mayor's business didn't last very long without GM carrying him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Novine
I think the DEGC is a safer bet.
We're still waiting for all those bids for the reuse of Tiger Stadium - you know the ones
GJ said would come as soon as the stadium was torn down. Now he won't even consider having anyone maintain the field. I guess we're looking at a long term resolution to the rail system.
"I think the DEGC is a safer bet."
I guess if you set the bar low enough, Demolition Jackson will manage to trip over it. How about an actual transit authority staffed by people who know how to run a transit system? Or people who actually know how to construct and operate light rail systems? Is that too much to ask?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kraig
Can you name the sophisticated projects of large scale that the DEGC have put together besides the Book Cadillac?
Actually, yes it is. People with expertise in operating rapid transit will want to work in a city where there are a multitude of rapid transit lines [[or at least a decent prospect of that happening), a reasonable governance structure in place and a stable funding source. Neither Detroit nor the region has any of these things. So we won't be able to attract the top talent to here; we aren't serious enough about this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Novine
^^^^
Ughhh....wait, there was the.......what about......never mind. Fuck, as said above, how about having transit experts running it? Oh, I forgot, they would be "outsiders".
Stromberg2, ready to throw a berserk!
The Feds are moving in the opposite direction: http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...light-rail-fta
They have reason to fear that DDOT is not stable enough to run the operation and they probably question who the hell the DEGC is and what makes them knowledgeable enough to built and operate a mass transit system?
http://www.degc.org/images/gallery/D...ort-091007.pdf... 30 years of "Hall of FAME" accomplishments listed on page 10. The people mover is #3 on that list. So yeah.. .awesome list there considering the PM is pretty much the leading example to the world of what NOT to do when planning a mass transit system.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjlj
Campus Martius, GM's Hamtramck Assembly Plant, Marathon's Expansion, Compuware, Quicken Loans, EDS, Blue Cross Blue Shield, Ernst & Young, the Riverwalk. That's just to name a few, they've done some good work. We have to remember, before it becomes a transit sytem, it needs to get developed. That's where the DEGC can come in. A transit auhority is something that will probably get put on the table in the future, but doing so from the onset will have the transit line going the route of DARTA. I think we can all agree that it may be a good idea to start assembling property and laying track before we add the extra layers of red tape and bureaucracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjlj
Wow that 'hall of fame' is embarrassing....
I've been covering this project, in its various forms, since at least 2006 or 07 [[my mind is jelly right now from a two-week cold and transit exhaustion).
It was not much of a secret that personality conflicts have been an issue for this project.
Norm White and DDOT not running the project is being greeted as great news by transit insiders that I've talked to.
DEGC runs the DDA, which has committed $9 million to the project ... through the M1 Rail consortium. So having George Jackson running this project likely means M1's concerns about DDOT's plans could find a more receptive audience.
The city needs M1's money. M1 has issues with DDOT's plans [[at lease some M1 members; they're not a united front on this). My theory is that the administration grasped at some point that M1 was serious about walking away, or at least some of its members. That would leave this project DOA.
Bing doesn't want a dead rail project around his neck, not this far into the game. So it was only nature White and DDOT had to go.
And if you read what I and the Freep have written from interviews with the feds, they haven't been shy about their concerns about DDOT's ability to fund and operate such a system. They want an RTA. And apparently, short of an RTA for now, it's been deemed wiser to have DEGC do this.
The "experts" thing isn't DEGC being experts at building a train system -- URS was hired for that. They're experts at business and political relationships, especially with some members of M1 Rail.
"They're experts at business and political relationships, especially with some members of M1 Rail."
Experts at cronyism and protecting self-interested parties? I'll grant Demolition Jackson is an expert at that. Which is really what the project is all about. It's not about getting a great transit system that will serve the city and region. It's about getting a system that will serve the self-interests of various parties.
Time will tell whether the transit system is great, good, or shitty. But as for serving the self-interests of the various parties, they are the people paying for the project. If we don't want to cater to their self-interest, all we have to do tell them they don't need to pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Novine
It sucks. I agree. But this is the reality.
Agree! They will be the facilitator to get it built only......RTA coming sometime after. Hopefully, soon.
More DEGC......less clowncil is always a better alternative!
"But as for serving the self-interests of the various parties, they are the people paying for the project."
They are? We are. Most of the money is coming from federal funding which is our money.
There has to be more then a few buildings standing in the way of "progress" along the entire length of Woodward. Because of that it would make sense to put DEGC in charge of M1 rail.
Just get it done already. Why delay actual revitalization a moment longer?
In my mind this will just be an olive branch to Demo Jackson to do something right for a change and totally redeem the DEGC. Perhaps he and his team could bring the donors back to their senses rather than pretending that they know something about the particularities of rapid transit. If it moves fast and isn't too expensive, it will be wildly successful and accomplish everyone's goals. Now just do it and revolutionize this city.
The DEGC doe not not believes in a fair bidding process.
They seem to do fine when it comes to BIG projects, but it often seems like everything has to be a BIG project to get their approval, while any number of smaller projects get pushed asside because hey, that property could be used for something bigger. give me ten smaller projects over another BIG project almost any dayQuote:
Originally Posted by kraig
Quote:
Originally Posted by rb336
The past Detroit Mayors were pivotal in these relocations and expansion.
Furthermore, the community in the region desire that the old Tiger Staduim site remains a baseball park. Chevrolet and GM knows this. However, DEGC has disregarded GM, Chevy, and the people.
I'm a bit concerned DEGC doesn't exactly have the expertise to build a rail system.. however, they're probably a better bet than anyone else. At least they'd have a handle on the finances and would be smart enough to get help from someone who actually knows transit.
The best thing they could do is help facilitate establishment of an RTA.
Look; the clowncil isn't going to "build" the line, DDOT isn't, DEGC isn't, and a RTA isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanhat
They are going to hire a rail contractor to build the line. Choose an entity to manage the contract with the least amount of "pay for play" built into their corrupt officialdom.
When the line is finished, you hire an outfit like Veolia to operate it.
The managing entity just needs a small staff to supervise the contractor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorath
Exactly what I was thinking, Gorath. I can envision a sort of selective bowling ball rolling down the length of Woodward taking out anything that doesn't fit some sort of BS litmus test on "usability", "streetscape" or "infrastructure" improvements. God help anything slightly down on it's luck bordering Woodward. Take your pictures now folks.
Indeed Rb336; and I also agree with History's post. In Detroit and other similarly situated cities, the 'economic redevelopment' pressure over the last several decades has been to strive for exclamation points that are supposed to shock everyone into thinking 'wow, this city is back on track, let me go do business there.' But the 'economic redevelopment' establishment in these cities that still struggle haven't taken their continuing misfortunes as a sign that there are better approaches. Smaller, organic development is what works. Harness and implement the demand that exists, even if it doesn't produce skyscrapers, rather than trying to generate a demand for things that do not fit. I am sure that the overall subsidies handed out would be smaller if the City went with the flow and engaged smaller developers-- ready, willing, and able to invest, and looking only for gap financing-- rather than big ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by rb336
Having said that, Woodward Light Rail is a big project, and it's in the spotlight, so perhaps DEGC is in its comfort zone. Still, I don't feel that this is a natural fit, and I don't totally trust them. Hopefully this is just a short term thing to get everyone on board, break ground ASAP, and then hand it off to a bona fine [[hopefully regional) transit authority. Let's do this!
The only building that will be demolished in the rail plans developed by URS is the building next to the Rosa Parks bus center, the one adjacent to the People Mover stop there. I cannot recall the name of the building, but I believe it has that Moci clothing store and Quizno's or something and a pawn shop in it [[can't call if they're vacant). It's at the NW corner of Michigan and Washington.
This is where the southern terminus of the line will be [[it loops west from Woodward to link to the bus station).
If DEGC is allowed to take over, the line will be demolished before it is complete.
P.S. Why wouldn't you want your transportation department in charge of a transportation project?
The Federal Transit Administration has said it doesn't believe DDOT should be handling this. They're providing the funding, and they've expressed skepticism publicly about DDOT's operational funding plan and ability to run this system without cannibalizing the bus system even more than it already has.
The ideal situation is an RTA. Until one of those is in place, it appears the Bing administration believes the DEGC is better equipped to deal with the political issues involved in this than DDOT, which is a transit agency. The engineers designing the system remain the same people from URS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermod
Correctamundo! DEGC's role in construction management would be similar to that of the owner of a building construction project. They keep track of progress, conduct weekly meetings, approve change orders, and administer payment. No doubt, third-party inspectors will be hired [[This is usually written into the construction contract) to verify that the Work meets the specifications of the project. With that said, it irks me a bit that the City of Detroit apparently doesn't have such experience and needs to resort to a mysterious and secretive QUASI-public agency to protect the ENTIRELY public interest.
The work that DEGC would be managing would be strictly financial, where they have experience. The engineers and inspectors would be on-board to ensure compliance with the construction documents.
You most definitely wouldn't want DDOT managing this project, as they have zero experience with a construction project of this magnitude. They simply aren't equipped for it.
^^^^
Yep, DDOT has enough trouble handling the busses. Or should I say, not running the busses!
Stromberg2
That building is butt ugly [[if I'm thinknig of the right one). No harm.Quote:
Originally Posted by BShea
Update:
The Detroit Economic Growth Corp. and the Detroit City Council have informally worked out a framework for the makeup of an authority to manage construction of the city's $528 million light rail line on Woodward Avenue.
The tacit agreement on the board represents détente on the issue between Mayor Dave Bing's administration -- now represented by the DEGC rather than the city transportation department and former CFO Norm White -- and the council, which previously rejected a plan that it said would have given the mayor too much control.
Under the compromise, the mayor would have two appointees, the council would have two, and a fifth person would be jointly agreed upon, council President Charles Pugh said.
The authority would oversee construction of the nine-mile rail line running from downtown to the city limit at Eight Mile Road, and it potentially could become the board that has operational oversight of the system, Pugh said.
The issue could come up for council approval within the next week or two, he said. The plan is to have all details worked out before it's presented to the council for a vote.
"It's unofficially official," Pugh said.
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...ding-authority
Thanks for the update, MSUguy. This sounds promising, and I'm glad to see some kind of common sense compromise, here. Sounds like they are hoping that this construction authority actually forms the very beginnings of the regional system as a whole, a kind of placeholder that can interact with the feds while a regional system is being cobbled together over the coming years. I kind of wish things would come together faster, because I'm kind of wary of continuing to fragment the system. Now, you'll have DDOT, SMART, the Detroit Transportation Corporation, and the new local/municipal authority that will only oversee the Woodward line, when we should probably be merging these or winding down some of these departments and authorities in conjunction with forming a regional authority.
Bing and members of the council are just doing what the corporations are telling them to do. Both haven't done anything for the residents of the city but for the eintities who had put them in office which was the corporation and special interest groups. Bing and council are doing what Kilpatrick was accused of doing; inacting a family and friends policies but in this case it is more like friends
I get that feeling too. And I guess, whatever we all think of George Jackson, the real problem for me is a lack of democracy and accountability. Authorities, especially authorities for something as vague as "economic development," are accountable to nobody. Why should they be empowered with running anything the people will fund? Ultimately, don't they get to make decisions whether the people agree or not?Quote:
Originally Posted by stasu1213
Is this going to be a mass transit system, planned and executed by people who understand it, and for the purpose of moving people? Or is this going to be another sham effort to please the powerful while not doing what the people want?
Well, sometimes "doing what the people want" isn't in the best interest of "the people". Look at Greece. 50% of their population is working directly on the government payroll -- not for govt contractors -- actual government employees. Their social security starts at age 55 and goes until they die.Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
That's great, in the sense of giving the people what they want. It also is unsustainable and can't last for ever...and that's why Greece is in a 4-year recession and on the verge of bankruptcy.
Yes, I agree that many times what's in the interest of big powerful corporations and what's in the interest of the people are in direct conflict. I don't think that anyone would argue that Matty Moroun is doing what's "in the best interest of the people".
Right Bing is trying to do what's in the long-term best of the city...which is to make it financially viable. The problem is that in doing so, it has to make decisions that might "make the people unhappy".
Do I have faith that George and the DEGC will design a mass transit system that is best for the people and its needs? No, of course not. But if "the people" had the funding and credibility to make this happen, then we wouldn't have to listen to the decision and opinions of powerful entities representing small numbers of people. But right now we need to those entities to make this thing happen.
We are on the verge of the beginnings of mass transit for the first time in decades. Talking about an RTA is no longer political suicide. If "we the people" need to bend to corporate interests to get the thing off the ground, then it's a very, small price to pay to make this happen.
If we stand tall, with our hands on our hips, saying, "hell, no...you can't tell us what to do"...well. We'll never get anywhere.
I think your line of reasoning is ... a stretch. I'm talking about hometown democracy and you're rushing off to Greece? And caricaturing my point of view as some Z-snapping sassmouth? Umm ... you can do better, CTY...Quote:
Originally Posted by corktownyuppie
Sorry...I didn't intend for my words to come off this way, and I apologize that they did. I don't always agree with you, though I do respect that you're writing strikes me as deliberate, articulate, and well thought out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
I recognize my tone was harsh...what was trying to get across was that we need to focus on finding where the *overlapping interests* are between the corporate insiders and the masses. We both need each other. The masses need the money from the powerful. The powerful don't want to invest funds into a project that the masses will reject.
Yes, there are conflicts of interest, and God knows this region is all too familiar with them. I just want to keep focusing on where our interest coincide, because we have an opportunity to really get some great things done right now.
Well, when you're dealing with the business community, remember how they deal with each other. One businessperson sits down with another businessperson understanding that there is no such thing as good faith. He knows the other guy is out to game him, and he's out to game the other guy as hard as he can too. And they draw up pages and pages of agreements, trying to foresee every point where the other person could game them. Then, after tense negotiations, they cement their "agreement."Quote:
Originally Posted by corktownyuppie
This is how they behave with EACH OTHER.
Yes, it's nice to know where the interests overlap, but any "partnership" the public enters into with business has to be negotiated just as toughly. There need to be mechanisms for the public to say yes or no. There need to be some teeth to any agreement, not just a PR rep to shoo away troublesome public complaints.
The powerful don't want to invest funds into a project that the masses will reject? Then the powerful better listen good, long and hard to the public so they don't produce something the public doesn't want, yes?
I worry that there is a fundamentally flawed transit plan that the business community wants to put us all on the hook for. Beneath their proud declarations of "getting great things done right now" and that "you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs," I fear we're going to get a lot of smooth talk and then a People Mover II. Since the operating costs are going to be paid publicly, shouldn't the public ultimately get the mass transit system it deserves? Not a parking trolley designed to boost downtown business interests?