Could be the start of something really cool for Detroit.
http://bit.ly/r5U7BM
Could be the start of something really cool for Detroit.
http://bit.ly/r5U7BM
Just in time, this op-ed in yesterday's New York Times: Should Cities Drive Food Trucks Off the Streets?
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/17/su...20truck&st=cse
Some food for thought.
Yes, if by "cool" you mean fewer jobs, less tax revenue, and more urban blight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitkid
Fnemecek How can any new business be a bad thing for Detroit? It amazes me that people see competition as a bad thing. And as far as less tax revenue, these trucks are paying for an oeprators license and pay taxes like everyother business. So a landlord doesn't get a rent check, who cares. Urban blight? Have you been to Detroit? have you seen a vibrant street food scene in other cities?
SWMAP, I think the city is going to try and create a designated area for food trucks like Mark's Carts in Ann Arbor.
Did you read the article? Its not just about parking!
hopefully there will be some progressive legislation on food trucks; encourage more local entrepreneurship.. how much does such a truck cost to buy?
If Detroit can find a suitable vacant lot, shouldn't be too hard, to serve as a destination for them I think it would alleviate a lot of the issues raised in the times' article. If Detroit's problem is that it has too many food trucks then it will be a welcome problem. I just don't see that happening.
As for competition with restaurants, the ordinance states that no mobile food unit can locate within 100 ft. of a similar establishment, I dont think that is going to change even if they draft new less prohibitive regulations.
Is it my fault that you're bad at math?Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitkid
If 10 of these trucks succeed and 1 regular restaurant goes under as a result, it's still a net loss in terms of jobs and tax revenue. Less tax revenue and fewer jobs will invariably equal more urban blight.
It amazes me that our educational system is so bad that people actually think that this will be a positive for the community.
I pack my lunch almost every day. What if I start buying from a somewhat reasonably priced food cart? Now I'm a job creator. Call the GOP.
I don't want to spend 10 bucks on lunch every day [[that inevitably comes with fries) and a lot of people can't sit down like a civilized person for lunch [[I normally have to eat mine in the office, construction guys are too sweaty or dirty to sit inside, etc...). This is hardly the end of the world and will compete with fast food more than traditional restaurants and I can't wait to get some new options.
"Although Mayor Rahm Emanuel supported the trucks during his recent campaign, the alderman who heads the committee that will consider the proposal said it won’t pass without restrictions that would keep food trucks at least 200 feet away from restaurants."
Are restaurants really that worried about competition from a truck? Why don't they open up their own trucks? If I were a restauranteur I'd be ecstatic about the proposition - you could open another location at a fraction of the cost.
El Gaupo has seven employees... That's seven people getting paychecks. I know of many small restaurants that have fewer than that.
You say that one restaurant going out of business creates urban blight? You know what creates urban blight, having stagnant or no economic activity. I would gladly welcome 10 thriving food trucks at the expense of one restaurant that couldn't face a little competition. The added foot traffic alone is a huge benefit.
And lets jjsut take a look at this : "If 10 of these trucks succeed and 1 regular restaurant goes under as a result, it's still a net loss in terms of jobs and tax revenue. Less tax revenue and fewer jobs will invariably equal more urban blight."
These trucks are forced to pay two rents, the rent at a commissary and the rent at the parking lot. The owners of both the commissary and the parking lots pay income taxes. Does every restaurant owner own the bricks and mortar location of their restaurant? No they don't. They rent out their space. The owners will pay taxes on the food they sell. The owners also pay fees just to operate in the city.
So, the argument against them is the same old argument you hear from those willing to accept the status quo. Change is bad. Competition is bad. Let's keep our head in the sand and say anything new is scary and will hurt Detroit.
For God's sake get out of your own way.
I hope these trucks serve the off-business hours, such as late night bar crowd. Most of the restaurants are done serving downtown at or before 2AM. The only options are usually coney, coney, or more coney. And, while I love coney, something different would be nice.
I'm sure there will be a few people who do that. The question: will there be enough new customers to offset the losses at traditional restaurants?Quote:
Originally Posted by Enduro
The answer is that it's extremely doubtful.
Anyway, one slices it, the end result of this is fewer jobs and less tax revenue in a community that can't afford to lose either.
If the food trucks are a threat to brick/mortar food places, then those places had better up their game. It's called competition, and it's what our free-market economy is all about. Up your game if you think a freakin' taco truck is going to put you under.
The consumer is always right in a market-driven economy.
It is not the city's job to protect restaurants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnemecek
110% Strongly Agree. Free market captialism at work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BShea
First, there's no incentive for traditional restaurants to open a second location. If they open a food truck, it will be a replacement to their fixed location, which still results in a net loss in tax revenue and jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBMcB
You're assuming that there will be an added foot traffic. There is simply no evidence to support such a conclusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitkid
In fact, with few jobs, less tax revenue, and more blight in the community, the most likely scenario is that there will less foot traffic in the area; not more.
The tax revenue and jobs created from those two locations is still lower than that created by a traditional restaurant at a fixed location.Quote:
These trucks are forced to pay two rents, the rent at a commissary and the rent at the parking lot. The owners of both the commissary and the parking lots pay income taxes. Does every restaurant owner own the bricks and mortar location of their restaurant? No they don't. They rent out their space. The owners will pay taxes on the food they sell. The owners also pay fees just to operate in the city.
For God's sake, please go back to high school where you belong and learn all of the things that you should've learned, but obviously didn't.Quote:
For God's sake get out of your own way.
That is why there is only one McDonalds? This isn't right--they put the truck somewhere not near their restaurant, and they can get more customers.Quote:
First, there's no incentive for traditional restaurants to open a second location. If they open a food truck, it will be a replacement to their fixed location, which still results in a net loss in tax revenue and jobs.
And by getting people out on the street, food trucks definitely improve the atmosphere. I agree with the people who say that if they city wants to regulate food trucks, it should be for other reasons than protecting restaurants from competition.
Fine, just don't complain when the unemployment rate goes up, the budget gets even tighter, and there's a bunch more vacant buildings around.
Once that happens, we won't have as many fixed restaurants or food trucks.
They can also use the food truck as a way to get more people to visit their brick and mortar locations. A few of the more upscale restaurants in NYC operate sidewalk stands to cater to the office worker lunch crowd. I have chosen to visit the some brick and mortar restaurants solely because I liked what I bought as the sidewalk stands.Quote:
Originally Posted by mwilbert
I live in SW Detroit - home of the taco trucks, and I love them. But it's a hard, hard life: sweltering or cold. There's lots of clean-up of the parking lot, flies, supply runs, etc. I have to think that many trucks vendors would love a fixed location with air-conditioning, plumbing & heat and that many of them would go that way. Seems like not too many building housed food locations would go the other way - to trucks. At least not permanently. I don't see many established restaurants deciding to run a food truck except as a sort of trendy gimmick.
And I'm sure that the trucks won't get anywhere near the stadiums! The vendors inside are paying huge concession fees and they aren't going to put up with truck competition.
Yes I would much rather eat food from some truck where there are no bathroom facilities available for employees or even patrons to properly take care of business than at a liscenced full service restraunt. A truck is not the same level of investment in a community as a resturant.
I can recall seeing a photo-essay of these things in Austin TX, I thought they were a joke. These things were all done up by hipsters. I still think they are a joke. Don't get me wrong there is a time and place for them, but the time is not now for the place called Detroit.
Well, don't eat there. Still not a good reason for them to be outlawed. If other people feel like you then the trucks won't make any money and will quickly go away.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner
ihearthed, I completely agree. At some point you just have to let capitalism do its thing. Competition is the best thing for Detroit, in every capacity.
The most likely scenario would be, the crappy operators would be the ones who go under regardless of their business being a truck or an established restaurant.
Where I live, there is an artisan barbecue truck that opens for lunch several days a week. For the 12 hours-or-so a week this truck is open for business, I have yet to see a bricks-and-mortar barbecue joint close shop. By the same token, the bricks-and-mortar hot dog shops seems to coexist with the hot dog carts just fine.
We even had a lawsuit threatened when a gentleman proposed to open a taco truck located across the street from a yet-to-be Mexican restaurant. The owner of the Mexican restaurant lobbied the City, saying that she had already sunk $500,000 into her business, and that permitting the taco truck wasn't "fair". To date, the Mexican restaurant has been engaged in its building fit-out for a year, with no projected opening. Should the City be engaged in protecting the interests of someone who clearly has no idea what she's doing?
It's the City's job to regulate, but not to pick winners and losers. A City of 700,000+ people should be able to have some healthy competition. Since when is it the City's responsibility to write and enforce the business plan of an independent entrepreneur?
B&M restaurants have been catering off-site for years, so why not cater on wheels for special events? Sounds like a good way to drum up business.
How are these different from the roach coach trucks that cruise factories and job sites?
I hardly think 50 years from now someone will be kicking over the bricks that used to be Detroit and saying to their fellow frontiersman, "If they only didn't let the food trucks compete with the resaurants." like Fnemecek seems to.
We all want progress for Detroit, but should it be this kind of progress? I live near the food trucks in SW Detroit and I definetely haven't stopped going to restaurants. There is a time and a place for either and until today I've never even considered the two as competitors. It would be cool to have these around downtown as it gives the area a vibrant, less threatening aesthetic.
It seems fair that a person with a truck and a dream can give it a try, this is America afterall. If a restaurant is threatened by a food truck, I'd say it's probably for good reason.
Bring on the competition!
.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
But that is exactly what we're doing by allowing the food trucks to operate.
Food trucks carry a tiny fraction of tax burden that even a small restaurant would carry, but is allowed to sell the same product in the same neighborhood. If both had to pay the same taxes and fees, it would be different.
Instead, the local government is picking the winner in a food truck vs. brick and mortar fight - and we're choosing the one that contributes less tax revenue and creates fewer jobs.
Uh oh, this could spell trouble for Opus One, Coach Insignia, the Caucus Club, and countless other downtown establishments. "Honey, look, a Taco truck! I know we have reservations at the Whitney, but what say we grab some food prepared near the street and drink 40's in Hart Plaza instead?"
Before you know it, our blight will become even more blightey, and there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Actually, they'll be saying, "If only every back in 2011 wasn't so bad at math."Quote:
Originally Posted by ResurgetCineribus
But I digress.
Excellent! No anecdotes about what you think will happen or reporting from a small observational sample such as a barbeque truck not causing any observable closing of barbeque restaurants in the short-term.
Just the facts.
Right. The only restaurants in Detroit are those ones. There are no middle of the road, family style establishments within the city at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitPole
If Business A is legally required to pay $10,000 in taxes and fees while Business B only has to pay $100, how is that a competition?Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintMe
I think they'll be more concerned with everyone's poor grasp of English.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnemecek
Look at how much we accomplish when we replace civil discourse with unsupported insults.
...and coincidentally, pays less rent to the downtown power brokers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnemecek
Certainly, you're not foolish enough to think that everyone should be forced to sit down at a table for an hour if they want to eat lunch. Food trucks and bricks-and-mortar restaurants cater to entirely different clientele. If you have only 15 minutes for lunch, you're not going to eat at a restaurant, but you might be inclined to pick up something "fast" from a truck.
And believe it or not, food trucks actually employ people who might be able to make an income and support their families, in turn spending their money in the local economy. And who knows?--many a food truck has become a bricks-and-mortar restaurant over time. Not everyone has half a million bucks for fit-out of a space, but lowering the hurdles for accessing the marketplace can only help people start their own businesses. But I suppose you'd rather have food truck operators standing in the breadline on the public dole....
If a well-capitalized bricks-and-mortar can't compete with a part-time operation with a limited menu, then I question whether said restaurant is worth half a shit in the first place.
You're espousing a myopic point-of-view here, Fnemecek. Do you think Gray's Papaya gives a rats ass about all the hot dog carts in Manhattan, even though they sell the EXACT SAME PRODUCT? Why do you insist on strong-arming the little guy, when the bricks-and-mortar places clearly have a lot more capital to leverage? It's this kind of pissy anti-business attitude that keeps people like the Ilitches deciding your destiny for you.
Hypothetically speaking, if a food truck can put a brick & mortar restaurant out of business...can't a brick & mortar restaurant put a food truck out of business?
anybody try it? hows the food...cause thats really what matters :)
Go to cities like LA and Portland who have hundreds of these and the same lame arguments about brick and mortar restaurants were made. These haven't driven fixed restaurants out of business they have actually have driven foot traffic ,so maybe you should educate yourself and read about the success of these in other cities before spout off on how bad it's going to be for the city.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnemecek
In a lot of cases, because of the lower overhead and ability to have limited hours, food trucks are successful at places where a bricks-and-mortar restaurant would lose their shirt. For instance--a venture that caters primarily to downtown office workers on their lunch break.Quote:
Originally Posted by MSUguy
where are the food trucks in southwest detroit? which ones have good food..
This is great news.
It's about time the city got some food trucks, and it's nice to see The City get out of its own way.
I haven't been to many, but there's always one in the H&J Foods parking lot. 3923 W. Vernor Highway. It pretty much just has tacos, and the good coca-cola from Mexico that's made with cane sugar... Although, I don't think this one counts as a truck since all of its wheels are flat and the rims are beginning to dig into the concrete.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypestyles
The only place that I agree with Fnemecek is the possibility that the city is giving away public real estate to truck operators.
If a food truck is going to use a parking space on the street, or a city-owned lot, then they should pay a reasonable and market rate for the use of the property. I'd apply Donald Shoup's ideas about parking so something that is not entirely different.
I haven't read up on all of the material relating to this issue, but one question I have is how are business and restaurant fees different for bricks and motor vs truck? These sorts of fees should be equal for both. If I'm missing something and they are not, then I agree with Frank.
Otherwise, bring on the food trucks. I respectfully disagree with my distant friend. I don't think that businessness should be required to provide amenities [[seating). I'm convinced that food trucks produce entrepreneurial opportunities [[something that Detroit needs) and increase street life [[another thing that Detroit needs more of).
So are we gonna start requiring ice cream trucks to do the same? Are ice cream trucks to blame for the lack of Baskin Robbins and Coldstones in the city?!Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmyers
Of course, not everyone is up for that. This is why drive-thru, walk-up, and carry-out options exist at restaurants everywhere. As for food trucks, I'd be fine with them if they either only operated in conditions where they aren't likely to pose competition for the brick and mortar restaurants or where they have to carry the same tax burden as conventional restaurants.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
Wow! And some folks say I'm over the top.Quote:
But I suppose you'd rather have food truck operators standing in the breadline on the public dole....
If I food truck can't carry the same tax burden that a conventional restaurant does, and they're not willing to operate in a restricted area, they have no business competing. Government should not subsidize food trucks at the expense of those who create more jobs than they do.
Gray's Papaya also doesn't care about McDonald's. Of course, McDonald's has to pay the same taxes and fees that Gray's Papaya does.Quote:
You're espousing a myopic point-of-view here, Fnemecek. Do you think Gray's Papaya gives a rats ass about all the hot dog carts in Manhattan, even though they sell the EXACT SAME PRODUCT?
What's your point exactly?
Sometimes the little guy has spent years working for someone else in order to save up enough money to open a restaurant. Why do you want to strong arm him?Quote:
Why do you insist on strong-arming the little guy, when the bricks-and-mortar places clearly have a lot more capital to leverage?
What's wrong with a level playing field?
When did a basic sense of fairness become a "pissy anti-business attitude"?Quote:
It's this kind of pissy anti-business attitude that keeps people like the Ilitches deciding your destiny for you.
And why do you think we need to get rid of fairness in order to keep the Ilitches from deciding my destiny?
Umm... Maybe you should educate yourself before you criticize me for not educating myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by MSUguy
LA has strict guidelines on food trucks and they're making them more restrictive, not less.
What's your source that food trucks create more foot traffic than traditional restaurants?
Yeah, except that downtown office workers on their lunch break is the bread and butter of conventional restaurants. You know, the people who are paying all of those taxes and providing all of those jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
Not likely, since the brick & mortar restaurant has to carry a higher tax burden.Quote:
Originally Posted by noise
In either case, they're relying on the consumer. If they're unable to provide a product that is desired by potential customers, they go out of business. If the food truck takes business away from the brick & mortar, the consumer has voted with where they choose to spend their money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnemecek
And in either case, the brick & mortar carries a higher tax burden, which is a de facto subsidy of the an industry that creates less jobs.
If two entities are competing, why should government subside either of them, let alone the one that creates the fewest jobs?
And if those places can't stomach a little competition for 3 hours a day, 5 days a week, they have a shit business plan to begin with. A bricks-and-mortar restaurant needs to be taking money, at a minimum, 10 hours a day, 6 days a week to do well. Let's cry a river because a steak house will have to "compete" with a burrito cart for 20% of its operating hours. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnemecek
Now, you tell us: why should a food truck have to pay taxes on par with a bricks-and-mortar business when the truck doesn't occupy a taxable property???
Sorry. If a restaurant fails because of taxes or a stupid burrito cart, it was a shit restaurant. Plain and simple. I'm not understanding your theory of a centralized planned food-service economy.
Look for my new thread, where I deem it wholly unfair that a food truck can't get away with serving $30 entrees and $8 drinks. How are the poor widdle food trucks supposed to survive when they're forced to sell meals for a paltry $5-6 a pop?
I don't agree with the idea that the restaurant is where the property tax burden sits.
It sits with the landowner. Only in the case that a restaurateur owns its building and land, and does nothing else on the property, then the burden is on the restaurant. Got apartments, condos, or offices upstairs? Then the taxes are shared pretty broadly.
Those taxes are due whether or not a somebody is occupying the space.
I think that archaic zoning, transportation policies [[I'm sure of these), and property tax collection procedures [[only speculating) are more blight inducing than street vendor deregulation.
I'm sorry, but any business that's profit margins are so tight that the tax rate is determining whether they sink or swim is a poorly run business. If a brick and mortar restaurant can't compete with a truck because of the tax rate, they deserve to go under. Either run your business more efficiently or provide a better product. Plan and simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnemecek
Who knows. Maybe that successful truck operation might decide to open up in the same location that the poorly run brick and mortar place was at?
I am from the Detroit area and live in Portland now. Portland has between 200-400 food trucks [[number varies seasonally) in various pods around the city. For $3-$6 you can sample foods including Mexican, Peruvian, Cuban, Indian, German, Belgian, Thai, Venezulian, Vietnamese, Japanese, Korean, on and on it goes. The food quality is generally very high [[as it is throughout Portland in general). Some of the trucks are tied to restaurants, other trucks branch out into full service restaurants themselves based on their success. All of these places have CROWDS of people at all hours: some pods cater to the downtown lunch crowd, some to late night crowds, etc. No restaurants have closed because they could not compete--going to a cart and going to a restaurant are apples and oranges. Sorry folks--if you think entrepreneurship, increased foot traffic and positive street life, and taxes paid to the city vis a vis food carts are something to ban or avoid then Detroit really is not going to go anywhere from what it is today.
I agree w u w/ the tax burden, but the welcomed foot traffic, may help other business in the area. Wether that be a party store, grocery store, pharamcy, etc... Alot of restaurants are strugging, I went to Roma Cafe 2 saturdays ago w/ my wife for lunch and it was dead. The food was fine, but I wouldn't go down there just to eat at Roma Cafe again. My wife is a smart shopper and she buy Groupons all the time. Usually its restaurants on those types of sites.[[Used one for Whitney, Opus 1, Roma cafe.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnemecek
You seem very interested in things being "fair", but I don't particularly view anything in the world in those terms. There are consequences for every decision. They made the choice to open a brick & mortar instead of a food truck. If you can't survive, you can blame nobody but yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnemecek
I'm not particularly fond of a flat tax, either.
Ultimately, I'm more concerned with the consumer in this particular situation. We can agree to disagree.
Yeah, except that's when the business is done. People tend to eat meals around a somewhat standardized schedule. Breakfast in the early morning, lunch around noon, and dinner in the evening. That 3 hour window takes up the bulk of the business opportunities while failing to carry the same tax burden or provide an equivalent number of jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
Fairness.Quote:
Now, you tell us: why should a food truck have to pay taxes on par with a bricks-and-mortar business when the truck doesn't occupy a taxable property???
Now, you tell us: Why should we subsidize one business model over another? Moreover, why should we subsidize a business model that creates fewer jobs at the expense of the one that creates more?
Let me get this straight. I advocate treating two business models the same. You advocate giving one a subsidy at the expense of another.Quote:
I'm not understanding your theory of a centralized planned food-service economy.
And I'm the one with a "theory of a centralized planned food-service economy"???
The restaurants that are brick and motar, should have a food truck, w/ a limited menu available on it. Ex roma cafe shpuld have a truck that serves paninis for example, for 3 hours in a busier part of downtown. It would help the bottom line. The cost arent that much for a food truck.
So not only do we have to sit down at a restaurant if we want to eat lunch, we have to eat WHEN you tell us to as well? Boy, I hope I get hungry quick, because the crappy deli that's only open from 11-2 Monday through Friday is about to close!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnemecek
Yes, you're right. Detroit is only big enough to support five eateries. Let's put a moratorium on new restaurant construction, then, if we're going to use your reasoning.
Show me ONE documented case where a restaurant has EVER gone out of business due to competition from a food truck.
What subsidy for food trucks? I think you're clinging to a straw man here. Pray tell, what taxes would you impose on food trucks that they don't already pay? Property tax? Special Discriminatory I Hate Food Trucks Tax? My Friends Own Restaurants Tax?Quote:
Fairness.
Now, you tell us: Why should we subsidize one business model over another? Moreover, why should we subsidize a business model that creates fewer jobs at the expense of the one that creates more?
Let me get this straight. I advocate treating two business models the same. You advocate giving one a subsidy at the expense of another.
And I'm the one with a "theory of a centralized planned food-service economy"???
You're really just making shit up at this point. If you want to see a subsidized restaurant operation...In Poland, they have a concept known as a "milk bar" [[bar mleczny) that was begun in the 1960s. Milk bars are government-subsidized cafeterias, which were opened because employees of small companies without canteens needed somewhere to eat lunch. Most of them have closed in the market economy of the past 20 years, but most cities still have at least one, which is still directly subsidized by the government--you can get a meal for $2-3. Yet, privately-run restaurants [[and kebab stands and hamburger carts!) are miraculously able to make money too. The HORRORS!
There is a shit load of hot dog carts in NYC and a shit load of restaurnts, they can co-exist.
Iit was around 5 to 7 years ago i saw taco trucks getting more numerous and popular in SW Detroit. Over the past 10 years i've seen dozens of brick and morter Mexican restaurants and Taquerias open up. Guess what? They are all still there. Isn't it great?!
as I said food carts and restaurants are apples and oranges. No one thinks/says "Hey, let's go out for a nice dinner and bottle of wine at XYZ--no, on second thought let's go get a burrito from that cart!"
I can do better, trucks have become real businesses. Ya know Good Girls Crepes started as little more than a food truck sized hole in the wall, literally, a hole in the wall? They upgraded as their business grew.
The customer is always right. I'm not looking for a full blown restaurant, a tip, crappy fries with everything and a 10 dollar salad or sandwich and I don't want to go to McDonald's. I'll still go to restaurants when I want a drink and to sit down and enjoy myself but for lunch I want options or else I'm packing it myself. Zero economic activity. I have a feeling there are tons of others like me. Cool food trucks I try on my travels are another reason I shake my head when I come home.
This is a hot new trend that Detroit is missing out on. "Hey, I know this awesome little truck on Griswold". How nice would it be to have some street vendors out on the streets late at night, offering something to sop up the night's sins and keeping an eye on what's going on around him. There's a lot of Quicken employees who work long hours coming, let's accommodate them so they can get a quick bite and go right back to work before they discover the wonder of Hot Pockets.
I swear, this city is laughable sometimes. THEY WANT TO GIVE THE CITY TAX DOLLARS. Take it.
Brick and mortar operations pay property taxes; trucks don't. The absence of a level of taxation on one business model that doesn't exist on its competitors is a de facto subsidy.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
But, you know, I'm the guy who is just making things up and clinging to my straw man
They weren't a food truck. They were a small brick and mortar operation, which had property taxes assessed against it, that grew into a larger one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enduro
Good to see so many people see competition as a good thing and are defending it.
Someone was asking about where food trucks can operate. The food trucks are not allowed to operate on any public property hence their having to pay to park in parking lots. So there is no special treatment for them.
from what I saw today, the place was packed and eventually sold out of everything at about 1:15.
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...ig-opening-day
Yeah, they don't occupy property either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnemecek
But, you know, property taxes are all that matter, because we like to selectively ignore that food trucks pay income and sales taxes.
When do I get to piss and moan that restaurants don't pay gasoline taxes? Because that would make about as much sense as your desire to discriminatorily tax food trucks out of existence. Subsidy Subsidy Subsidy!
All true if you can't seperate out the fact they aren't true competitors. Carts and restaurants are not interchangeable. They are totally different experiences. Sometimes you want one, sometimes you want the other. Portland has never had so many food carts and restaurants still keep opening like crazy. Without exception I can say that any restaurant that closed here in the past two years did so due to misguided concept, poor location, service, and food quality [[or all three)--NOT due to unfair competition from food carts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnemecek
Yes, subsidizing one business model over another is suddenly popular.Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitkid
God help us.
I have to agree with Hans. Every city I've been to with food trucks and carts seem to be more vibrant. There's also a positive with a possibility of less street crime when you have more people on the streets eating and shopping. When I travel to a city I usually look for areas that have food trucks online before I visit. I also look for good restaurants too. Denver comes to mind with great street food.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans64
Which brick and mortar also pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
#1. I think you just did piss and moan about it.Quote:
When do I get to piss and moan that restaurants don't pay gasoline taxes? Because that would make about as much sense as your desire to discriminatorily tax food trucks out of existence.
#2. Gas taxes are paid to the state and federal government.
#3. Gas taxes are also no where near what property taxes are.
#4. How is treating all businesses the same "discriminatory"? Words have actual meanings, you know.
Fnemecek, I usually respect your posts and blog but many trucks do become brick and mortar, I referenced Good Girls because Detroit is so backwards I can't think of any local examples. This is something that people, young people want. They want more options, they want something fast that isn't fast food. People will see a lack of trucks as another reason Detroit is a dinosaur that will never catch up to the times and isn't worth planting roots in. Am I overselling the trucks? Absolutely but it IS another thing other cities have, that we don't. They are willing to pay taxes. They don't compete directly with restaurants, they compete with Slim Jims, brown bags and 99 cent menus. This is additional revenue. Take it.
Maybe we should protect GM and Ford and nix the light rail system too. Oh, wait.
You keep calling this a "subsidy". You can't levy a property tax on a person or business who doesn't own property, and you'd get your ass sued if you tried. So where's the subsidy? It would be an uneven playing field if you *did* levy property taxes on food trucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnemecek
It's not as if these food truck operators would otherwise be shelling out half a million bucks in capital costs to sling tacos out of a window, but for the property taxes. That's the comprehension problem you're having. It's not either food truck/or restaurant--for the food truck operators, it's food truck or nothing.
Christ on Toast.
In fact I just might go take the MAX [[light rail) to go get lunch at a food truck right now!Quote:
Originally Posted by Enduro
Someone took a big gulp of Haterade this afternoon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnemecek
Your theory rests on the assumption, unproven by you and totally unfounded when you examine the evidence from cities like New York, LA, etc., that taco trucks, much less A SINGLE taco truck, must necessarily damage a nearby regular restaurant and put it out of business. As if the economy is a zero-sum game, and the two couldn't possibly coexist. Anyway, the same argument could be used to say that no brick-and-mortar restaurants should be opened near one another, since they'll inevitably put each other out of business. The tax issue is kind of irrelevant, since I would wager you don't really know anything about El Guapo's tax burdens--but presumably they're not paying property tax, 'cause they don't own property. So I don't see the problem.
Also, I would lay off the sneering at everyone for being less enlightened than you.
I also agree with Anthony Bourdain when he said that a city can't really be a great city if it doesn't have good street food, or more specifically, meat on a stick.
Lots of people here who don't seem to grasp proper analogies.
If I was going to go outside for quick lunch, it would be fast food or coney island or fast in/out diner. If there was a food truck available, I would probably go there instead because it is even faster and probably cheaper because they dont have the brick overhead. So, yes, the food truck takes from the aforementioned types of restaurants.
I would not be choosing a food truck when I had time to dine or was on a date going to the Whitney.
As for Good Girls.... not sure it is an upgrade when I used to get a crepe in 15 minutes and am now told it is a "40-45 minute wait" and then get no parking validation if I dont want to wait that long for a crepe. However, I digress.
Bah!!!!!!!
Well at least we agree one one thing. How is it that other cities can have hundreds who these with no issues, but not in Detroit? Whatever, it's same tired, lame excuse that "X" will never work in Detroit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnemecek
http://cdn.crooksandliars.com/files/...pson_0c5fd.jpg
Yeah, it'd be a real crime if a food truck could figure out how to make a sandwich just as bland and shitty as Subway and sell it at a lower price.Quote:
Originally Posted by East Detroit
Bah!!!!!!!
Depends on the location and the amount of foot traffic. Here in Rosslyn/Northern VA, we have at least 12 standard food trucks/carts within maybe 6 blocks and several of these trucks have brick and mortar restuarants that they are based out of within a few miles. I guess it isn't fair to compare since this small business district gets more foot traffic in a single day than Detroit's CBD gets in 2 weeks. I will admit that have sought out the brick and mortar establishments when I get a craving.Quote:
First, there's no incentive for traditional restaurants to open a second
location. If they open a food truck, it will be a replacement to their fixed
location, which still results in a net loss in tax revenue and jobs.
I was a bit skeptical about the whole food truck thing when I first moved here, but then again, this place is land-poor so it makes sense. The chain places like Quiznos and Chipotle have all tried their hardest to rid the area of the trucks but the market speaks. People want a wide-array of things that a standard one-genre eatery can't really provide. Maybe the diners that lose business directly to trucks will need to fight fire with fire and start their own truck?
Nitter natter nitter natter. I think there are different occasions for different establishments. If I am running around town by myself, shopping, sightseeing or trolling for info on something, I am in the market for something fast and informal. A food truck would suit me a ton better than McDonald's just because it is different. If I am with a friend or partner, we would likely prefer a sitdown restaurant, not of the chain variety. I have relatives who refuse to eat anywhere but chain restaurants so if I want to eat with them, we go to Olive Garden or Old Country Buffet or whatever. It is wonderful to find a red-eye food truck open very late for a quick snack, too. There is room for all these kind of places.
My favorite food truck was a frybread and Indian taco truck at a lonely crossroads in New Mexico. It was pouring rain and we got frybread with our backs getting soaked and our fronts and frybread staying dry under the little bitty overhang above the counter. The rain quit and we got pretty dry before we were done with our treat and the conversation with the owner.
Let's look at it from this perspective... gee I don't have more than a few minutes because my project is due... shall I get a granola bar from the office machine or spend 1/2 hour to an hour at a restaurant.... gee too bad there's no middle ground such as a vendor on the street where I can be there and back in just a few minutes....
OFFICE VENDING MACHINES..... THE REAL RESTAURANT KILLERS....
[[Sarcasm alert off....)
No one knows for sure how well the trucks will work here. Having worked downtown for a while, I think I would probably have gotten food from there, along with the other restaurants, fast food places and coney islands. When you are downtown at least 250 days a year, there's lots of room for variation and everyone got a little piece of my lunch money throughout the year, from the Caucus Club to McDonald's and everything in between.
We should also shut down all the vendors at Eastern Market, for if there were no market surely they would have brick and mortar grocery stores within the city that would pay property taxes and solve our supermarket woes!
One supermarket for corn. One supermarket for eggs. One sup....
It isn't just here:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ves_food-.html
Attachment 10208Attachment 10209I have 2 thoughts on this Every decent size shop in the suburbs has one of these trucks come at breaks and lunch what is the big deal ?
Second I just traveled thru Asia in June and street vendors are everywhere I loved them if I had a choice between pad se ew from a Thai street vendor or the same meal from an American Thai restaurant I would eat from most Asain street vendors first
There is already at least one food truck that operates in the area. Jacques' Tacos parks at Village Automotive at Woodward and 13 Mile on most Saturdays.
Plus, you'll see 'roach coaches' vending trucks at larger factories or shops most lunch times.
One last thing, on any given day, there are numerous legal, quasi-legal, and outright illegal bbq pits serving up grilled chicken and ribs around on street corners around the city. Come on, you don't think that Phil's Bump Shop serving up a dark meat snack has all the proper permits, do you?
MY GOD, who let all these apartment-renters into the city?!?! They're not paying property taxes like condo and home owners! They're unfairly being subsidized by the city at the expense of condo owners! We have GOT to pass some laws about these freeloading apartment renters. Because, you know, we can't pick and choose winners.
Love it, made me spew my water all over my keyboard. What exactly is a dark meat snack? I have no idea but they are mighty tasty.Quote:
Originally Posted by RO_Resident
What we need is more established resturants. There are plenty of vacant storefronts in downtown Detroit.
Put together a plan to lease out these places at a super cheap price to stir some competition.
As far as this guys idea of parking infront of Comerica Park, that aint gonna happen as long as Mike Illitch is selling his $5 hot and nasty pizzas for $15 inside the park.
FNemecek, I'll open a coney truck outside of [[formerly) Paul G. Citkowski's Dog House Coney at Westwood and Warren. That'll really put them out of business and blight the neighborhood.
Oh, wait. They're already gone. No food truck necessary.
Let me see, here, I'll just meander down to Warren and Longacre, where I'll put Steve's Three Brothers on their asses with my homemade pierogies.
Oh, wait. They're gone, too. Damn! Again, no food truck necessary.
Let's go back the other way and park outside of Dacosta and Warren and put Santia's Pizza out of business with my pizza by the slice truck and then put Little Mexico III down the street out of its misery with a mean burrito.
You can see where this is going ...
Yes, but you see a lot more hot dog carts in many areas where there arent a lot of restaurants at street level. If Detroit lacks in restaurants in CBD, then food carts and trucks could be encouraged.Quote:
Originally Posted by GUSHI
I would maybe also try to bring on qualified cooks in ethnic cuisines like Portland manages to attract, and give out permits to deserving providers.
But, Motownmark: all those places you listed aren't going to see even a hot dog truck. The cool ethnic and artisan trucks want to be where the cool working people are. It's not a question of them going where there are, already, no restaurants and options. They need to be where people congregate and there are already options- and then they siphon away percentages of business.
It's just the way it goes- but from the NYT article and also from a google search I can see that municipalities view the trucks with alarm - not just old-fogey Detroit, but Nyt and Chicago and Charlotte and many others. As the article said: it's a trend that's not going away but cities are going to legislate the heck out them. Thus the 60 trips.
This is not a very good analogy, as the renters get the property taxes passed through in their rent. The correct comparison is to homeless people, who really don't pay property taxes. And no, I don't see why homeless people or food trucks should pay property taxes.Quote:
MY GOD, who let all these apartment-renters into the city?!?! They're not paying property taxes like condo and home owners! They're unfairly being subsidized by the city at the expense of condo owners!
SWMAP, my point is that if Fnemecek is worried about blight, abandonment, and further loss of tax revenue, then he shouldn't worry about blaming some food trucks.
Every little bit hurts and adds up.