Printable View
Its been awhile since posting and sorry for any duplicates.
I think we can all agree Belle Isle isn't being used to its full capacity. A few nature trails here, hold a few events at the bandshell, reopen the Giant Slide and do SOMETHING with the zoo. Is it just that its too much red tape between the city, county and state to deal with, or has anyone heard of any plans?
Belle Isle is different from the other Michigan State Parks, given its location and its history. I always think of our state parks as places to go to enjoy their natural beauty and to take advantage of their natural resources, with events associated with those resources.
Not sure what events I expect to be held on Belle Isle. We've enjoyed many events hosted by the Belle Isle Conservancy. And some events hosted by other groups.
In the last few years, there have been many projects on the island to make improvements. This report outlines what's been happening...
Belle Isle Annual Report FY2020
https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Pro...port_FY20.pdf?
The Belle Isle Conservancy continues their work to carry out their mission.
https://www.belleisleconservancy.org/
It will be interesting to see how Belle Isle develops in the next couple years as projects are completed. I look forward to seeing what events are held there.
Is there more than one fountain on Belle Isle? I only recall the large fountain.
As for fountains, the Scott Fountain is the only one I know of. There is the mini fountain in the conservatory Tropical room, and at least a water spray in the pool between the conservatory and aquarium. But there are a number of monuments [[statues) around the island.
I believe that the city wants to spend $50 million of their Federal American Rescue Plan money on the island.
It would be nice if the island got some of the $1.2 billion of the Ralph Wilson Foundation money [[which is paying for the west riverfront park).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
The city leased the park to the state,with the exception of the greenhouses they cannot spend $50 million from the rescue plan.
Because they leased it out for 30 years they do not have the legal authority to spend anything on it.
Here are the lease terms.
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/snyder/Belle_Isle_Lease_397744_7.pdf
The whole reasoning behind leasing it out to the state as a state park was because at that time people decided the city could not afford it,so they turned it over to the state which includes all financial responsibilities for improvements,outside of the greenhouses.
You cannot say,I am giving this up because we do not have the funds to maintain it then a few years later say,we found this 50 million to spend on it now we want to have a say in it.
The city washed its hands from it financially,if there is an extra $50 million laying about there are maybe more pressing quality of life issues within the city.
The state receives all proceeds from anything that happens in the isle,events etc. so for the city to throw $50 million at it while expecting no return is like saying,everything else in the city priority wise is just fine and we have an extra $50 million to spend in surplus.
The state is in control of who does what and where and how.
The city may be able to donate $50 million to the state park system but the state park system would not be obligated to spend it on the isle.
As would most likely be the case with anybody else looking to put money into it.
^Someone who IS a lawyer probably OK'ed the city adding $50 million for Belle Isle to the wish list of things that the city wants to spend money on...
https://www.detroitchamber.com/detro...pand-services/
You do realize that the funds are not given directly to the city by the White House,they are given to the state who then gives them to the cities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
The state could have just as easily allocated the same $50 million and earmarked it for belle isle to the parks system.
It does not take a lawyer to interpret a lease,the whole purpose of a lease is to spell it all out,and you are using a wish list as a basis of fact,the only facts are spelled out in the lease terms.
The city has no control over Belle Isle for the next 30 years,do you really think that they are going to put $50 million into it when there are more pressing immediate needs?
It is not the place of the city to say what monies will be spent on the Island,because they have no control over it.
Its not that complicated.
It’s free money,the objective would be to do things that would directly impact the city taxpayers which would decrease their tax obligations.
It seems like half the announced spending in the rescue plan is "fun money". With all the necessary pandemic spending due to healthcare/slowing of the economy, you would think gov't would be a little more careful but instead gov'ts at all levels seem to be spending like drunken sailors the last few years and the debt be damned. It's the exact same in Canada. Yesterday we got free dental and prescriptions thrown in. Great! [[But then I don't have any kids to inherit the mess).Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
^ it makes you wonder what is going to happen next year,the UK is already projecting a 8.5% inflation rate by end of summer and extra consumer costs between an additional $700 to $1000 per month,not seen sense the 1950s,they were still under war rations at that time.
So what happens in the next few years when the current windfall is spent and city revenue drops.
Detroit is on stable financial ground now but I think there is going to be a lot of cities hurting really quick,one would hope they would stick some back and prepare for it but cannot have it burning a hole in their pocket.
The sad part is the money is counterproductive in a way because the costs have increased so much the dollar value is low,it would be nice if they could bank it,collect the interest for a year and when the economy drops they could probably spend it at double the impact verses today.
Detroit already cleared the books from the pandemic,so it is kinda of a wish list slush fund of sorts, as long as the proper priorities are there.
Being in the government in a past life,that is the way it works though,get $50 million,you better spend it,even if it is by paying $1000 for a toilet seat,if you do not then you will not get it next year.
There always comes a time when that piper wants to get paid.
That may be the case but it still is by far the most highly attended state park in the state.Quote:
Originally Posted by Genesyxx
I'm steamed at the state for shutting down the handball courts with claimed intentions to repaint them. They then declared they were going to remove the ceilings due to leakage after saying it would cost $300K to repair them, ignoring the handball/raquetball community's provided estimates in the $30K range, half of which they offered to donate. Three years later they remain chained up, although I see the have removed the ceilings. That accounts for several thousand less annual visitors. Grrrr
Attachment 42013
There is so much opportunity there it is crazy,but most state run parks are not intensive like Belle Isle would be,to oversee it would be a complex full time job in itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowell
By design state parks are low maintenance with very few extras outside of a gazebo to rent for events,when the state took that over they also took over control of the non profits working there,at any time they can pull those plugs.
I still think that was one of the worst deals in the cities history.
To state the obvious - and not that the city would have necessarily done a better job - but I definitely expected much more when the state took it over. Quite disappointing it's still in the state it's in.
You have to wonder if they assumed the city wasn't just out of money but was mismanaging the island and they could maintain it for a lot less money than they thought. As others have stated, there are a lot more activities -golf, water slides, playground equipment, tons of large picnics, etc. than a regular state park and along with aging infrastructure the upkeep is huge.Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkytofu
I've seen workers there in the past month doing work on the courts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowell
Most of those are gone, waterside removed, golf is gone, there's one playground that I know of, picnic areas consist of mowed fields of weeds.Quote:
Originally Posted by 401don
The beach is a big draw in the summertime. It's frequently packed on weekends, even with the bathroom being a place I would never use.
Renovate what's there, make it the gem it should be, then look to adding more appropriate recreational opportunities for visitors.
And plant some more damn trees!!!
I too expected far more capital improvements to the island by now. I was wrong. I remain unconvinced that the city could have done any better though. Detroit’s plate is still pretty damn full, there is no shortage of things that need renovation or investment throughout the neighborhoods citywide.
I am sure it was not originally built out as the end result,more so by adding things as time progressed.Quote:
Originally Posted by K-slice
Thats the problem,we think in the here and now while cities are in it for the long game,every time we make decisions based in the here and now it’s like a pair of scissors cutting another piece of the fabric out.
Look at all the negatives based on the here and now,slam highways through,tear down historic buildings for parking lots,yank up street car lines,destroying entire neighborhoods in the hopes of attracting commerce that never came.
It is spilled milk now but the city could have done the same thing it did in the beginning,little by little,but people were hoping for instant gratification in the park.
I think it could still be made into a star location like it was,I am just not convinced that the state has it in them to dedicate the focus it needs,because it is another park amongst others fighting for time and money.
I am kinda thinking it needs a dedicated board of volunteers overseeing the island in order to be able to give it the focus it needs.
I do not know enough about the other state parks but this seems to me anyways a massive undertaking in management and organization verses the other parks?
In all fairness on the states side,the last year or so would not count,but the previous 6 ?
Maybe the state needs help in the organization of it all?
Neither the state report from 2020 or the Conservancy website provide any information about a general plan for the next time with a timetable and budget. Definitely on my wish list: Plant more trees especially evergreens and get the dead trees cleared out.
The State of Michigan is doing a great job on well-needed infrastructure updates and environmental remediation, but one thing severely lacking are some cafes, restaurants or other concessions. Why isn't there a cafe or a place for lunch next to the Conservatory and Aquarium?
I could think of at least three or four other places where such concessions could be added. Even small walk-up kiosks for ice cream and coffee in the summer time could make sense.
Existing structures could be repurposed or new structures built. The Casino could easily accommodate a full service restaurant during the day, when not used for weddings. I'm also thinking the huge Athletic Shelter would be great. And what about the derelict but still functioning boathouse?
As far as I know, the State doesn't run concessions in any of the state parks. They allow outside concessions come in and rent space to sell souvenirs and some type of food. Tahquamenon Falls at the Lower falls has a half empty building with some mugs, cheap jewelry, chips and hot dogs run by an outside company. Hartwick Pines has a book store in the welcome building as does the Porkie's state park. I think Upper Tahquamenon has a restaurant run by an outside company. Belle Isle is a State Park, they are probably running it like a normal State Park.Quote:
Originally Posted by casscorridor
So, could this be a business opportunity for some local entrepreneur to follow the vendor/rent process, add something of value to the community, and at the same time make some money?Quote:
Originally Posted by jcole
If the added "cafes, restaurants or other concessions" or even an ice cream stand mentioned above are in demand, then I'd think that there's money to be made. I'd rather see it go toward a private small business than the State of Michigan.
I posted a link to the lease agreement between the city and state,page 2 reads that the park is to be operated in consistent with other state parks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vic01
Thats the problem with Belle isle,it is nothing like other state parks.
The question is,can the state sub-lease parts of the park to private vendors,there does not appear to be an allowance for it in the city to state lease,outside of operating in a consistent manner as other state parks are.
If no other state parks have private vendor leases,then not likely.
Usually it takes legislative actions in order to pass a law for the park service to be able to sub lease public space,a strong case could be made for Belle isle.
Keep in mind that the park is leased to the park service,all the streets are under the control of MDOT.
So hypothetically speaking if you sub leased a restaurant space from the park service and the road and parking lot was trashed,you would have to wait until MDOT allocated the funds to fix them which could take years,considering they have a pothole list 17 miles long already.
The state park service is adept at running parks as public spaces,Belle isle needs to be run like a business which is not even in the scope of the park service.
I think the park service is pretty limited by budget restraints and lack of knowledge,not that it is their fault,but this is out of their realm.
To me anyways,until the City and Park service gets together with a state legislature representative and hash it out,it’s going to be a long 30 years and the isle will never see its full potential.
You have a couple of local representatives,but they are off on their own little agendas and tangents, so you are going to have to go up to the state level and email or speak to every single representative,until you find one that bites and is willing to take it on.
Richard... you can swear by that document all you want... no one is going to notify any state representative just to tweak Belle Isle's changes... there are a lot of unique items on the island already that have many funding sources and ownerships... DYC, Detroit Rowing Club, the aquarium, conservatory and Dossin Museum.
Then there's the Belle Isle Conservancy that do things for the park that no other Michigan state park has done for them. Here is the scope of the Belle Isle Conservancy that goes above and beyond state control...
https://www.belleisleconservancy.org/
A private company already does kayak and canoe rentals out of the Flynn Pavilion. Oudolf Garden Detroit finished a privately funded garden with its' own endowment last year. There are examples of private entities working on the island in concert with the DNR. As Gistok mentioned, the Belle Isle Conservancy also plays a large role on the island unlike other state parks.
You can act like that document is toilet paper all you want but it is a legally binding contract,if you read it,it clearly states that the state has zero obligation to honor any pre-existing groups or organizations at any time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
You posted that they go above and beyond the states control,the state is the lease holder,nobody is above that.
All you have to do is show me the legal document that gives anybody legal rights to do anything at that park outside of how it is spelled out in the lease,until you can provide that,it does not matter what anybody is currently doing there,the state can pull the rug out at any given time.
I have provided you with the lease as a fact,I did not make it up.
You keep coming back with everything under the sun except for the one thing that you need,the legal binding document that spells out the terms between the state and existing enterprises operating on the island.
Until you can do that,you can fund raise to fix something up and there is nothing that prevents the state from saying,meh we do not like it.
It is supposed to be public knowledge,just as the lease was between the city and state,but it is nowhere to be found,I am sure you can provide it,because the public does have a right to know.
It is also as a state park,a public space that is now supported by the entire state taxpayer base,the rest of the state is going to want to know why their local parks are not receiving the same attention.
You have to have those answers,and saying screw that lease is not providing those answers.
The conservatory keeps referring to the city of Detroit,the city of Detroit legally has zero to do with the park,nobody can do park business in behalf of the city of Detroit,or represent it,the city is the lessor and that is the end of it.
Its not that I do not want to see the park reach it’s full potential,I have always believed it was an important part of the fabric of the city that was ripped away needlessly,but it is going to be even worse if it continues on half baked,nothing in today’s society operates without legally binding documents in order to protect everybody.
Not crossing the Ts and dotting the Is is what brought you here to this stage in the first place,why keep on doing it?
Gistok,you cannot argue with the lease terms,put it in front of a judge and I would highly doubt it would be considered a worthless document,if you think it is worthless and has no standing,throw it away and the city can say they are taking it back,I would be all for that.
Because at least if the city wanted to lease to private vendors they could tomorrow.
You always have to look at things that can come back and bite you in the ass later,that part in the lease that spells out that the park must be operated in a consistent manner as every other state park and you and the poster after you, have presented examples where it is clearly not.
Somebody,someday, is going to use that if they see it is advantageous.
I am not there as you are not but when the city of Detroit starts talking about a $50 million dollar wishlist going towards the park,the residents deserve a bit more then,trust me to throw $50 million into a black hole,when they are driving over potholes and past burnt out buildings.
At that time you are also asking the residents to support a park with tax dollars in addition to added $50 million for a state park that they have little control over,that’s not fair,what was the point of leasing it out because they could not afford to fix it,while still paying to fix it,then that silly little lease pops up again where the city has zero obligation to spend any money on it,let alone can do so legally.
For some reason,the only thing the city retains rights over are the green houses.
Everything that is improved or rehabilitated is going to incur increased yearly maintenance costs,costs that the state taxpayers will bear,they have a right to know.
Everything else is subject to the whim of the state,unless it is accompanied by a legally binding contract between the state and organization.
Post it here.
Its been 8 years.
There is the Antelope pond and fountain in the Conservatory garden.
Then there is the concept of spacing after a comma. Forgive this English major.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray1936
Yes.
Good of you to bring that up, but are you sure we can handle another justification for his idiosyncratic punctuation over 15 paragraphs of unrelated anecdotes?
Another Pandora’s box…
isnt that island a racetrack now ? have more races.
Allowing private businesses to operate concessions, be they small kiosks or full service restaurants, makes sense purely from the standpoint of enhancing the park's experience and attracting more visitors. I honestly don't understand why this isn't a normal thing at state/city/county/metro parks in general.
Another area that could be enhanced is sporting. There are some leagues that play here, but I could see it be much more of a focus. Bring in commercial partners such to help cover the maintenance costs of new basketball, soccer, baseball fields, a skatepark, etc.
Another idea - horses! Yes, horses could be a hugely popular attraction, either individual riding or carriage riding. It was an idea mooted before the state took over and the island did once have stables as noted in this thread: https://www.detroityes.com/mb/showth...riding-stables
Maybe these sort of things aren't the DNR's wheelhouse, which I can understand. But they should have stronger partnership with the Conservatory, allowing them to experiment with some more creative uses of what is ultimately still a severely under-utilised park relative to its potential.
Everything currently there was implemented by the city while it was under city control,because they had the power to do that.
The DNR or park service is regulated by the state legislature,they cannot just make up new rules as they go along.
So it would take state legislature action in order to give them the power to enter into public/private relationships.
It has been done in other states,it has also been done in federal owned land.
For instance if a historical house or facility is located on federal land,you can enter into a agreement where they will give you the rights to the house,you have to cover the costs for rehabilitation but you can live there until you die.
The clevat being,because the federal parks are considered public space,you have to allow the public into the house for X amount of time per year.
That’s the legal mountain Belle isle has to climb,as a state park it is considered public space,if you privatized it,it no longer becomes public space excessable to all without limitations.
For instance,put a restaurant there,the park service would be responsible and liable for the building and parking lot,which is paid for by the taxpayers.
The sticky part comes in when the argument is made,why should the taxpayers pay to build and maintain facilities that are run by for profit entities,on public space.
It’s not to say that it cannot be done,my argument is,do it right because if not,all it takes is a legislature with a chip on their shoulder and it all goes away and nobody is protected.
Its not the same relationship as it was with the city,it is now with the state and that includes every taxpayer in the state and subject to the states whims,legalities and budget constraints.
As it stands at any given time the state can pull any deal or agreement that in not set out legally,off of the table.
Kudos to the conservatory for all the work they have done while it was under city control,but unless they have something that guarantees their existence under the state ownership,the state can shut them down at any given moment.
What are the roles and responsibilities of the DNR, the BIC, and the City?
The City of Detroit owns the park and has leased it to the Michigan Department of Natural Resources. The MDNR is responsible for the day-to-day responsibilities, while the Belle Isle Conservancy focuses on awareness, historical preservation, and fundraising for capital projects.
Yes canuck... another Pandora's Box... :rolleyes:
DNR ResponsibilitiesQuote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
Ownership
City of Detroit
Management
Department of Natural Resources, Parks and Recreation Division
In Collaboration with: MDOT
Roads and Bridges
DNR - Law Enforcement Division, & Michigan State Police
Public Safety
Great Lakes Water and Sewer
Public Water/Sewer Utilities
https://www.michigan.gov/-/media/Pro...b7b822d6def935
Funny how DNR does not list the conservancy as in collaboration with.
All private events taking place on Belle Isle are scheduled through the Michigan Department of Natural Resources.
So basically the conservancy is operating at the will of the DNR in the capacity as a PR and fundraising firm.
Everybody knows that there are a lot of revenue generating options that could be implemented on the isle,ever wonder why in 8 years none of them have ever been implemented?
It’s pretty clear that you and canuk did not have a clue,if you did it would not be in the shape it is in.
What did you do under your watch,if you had spent 1/10 of the energy that you spent in 4 years trying to unseat a sitting president it would be the most beautiful island in the world by now,you wasted all of that time when you should have been concentrating on the task at hand and actually doing something productive.
It’s everybody else’s fault and they are wrong,ever think maybe it is your mind set is what is wrong,it’s not like you can ignore the devastation it has caused.
Now you choose to take a stand,where have you been the last 20 years,under a rock?
Why are you so quick to protect the status quo when it is clearly not working,are you blind,the taxpayers want to know what is going on,they have a right to know and somebody has a duty to tell them exactly how it is.
Sit down and shut up,we got this,is what put the city in the position it was in,and here you are pushing that narrative at any cost.
Its a citizens civic duty to be involved in what is happening in their city,you do not have the right to tell others or do everything in your power to circumvent that.
From 1200 miles away I can understand what that park means to the people of the city,they deserve a little bit more then what you are pushing.
It is supposed to be public knowledge,show the public the legal binding contract between the DNR and the conservancy that shows volunteers and donators that their time and money is not going to be wasted at the whim of the state.
Its not that complicated.
I love a guy whose passion for a park he's never been to runs 400 paragraphs deep because he googled some things and has no hobbies.
There are private organizations operating at the park, those that are there for profit, those like the conservancy and others who work with the DNR to better the park for visitors. Are you rambling on and on because you say the DNR at any moment could turn on said organizations based on the wording of the agreements? That is what this whole thing is about?
You are here posting also,does that translate into you need to get a hobby?Quote:
Originally Posted by southen
This is why it is so screwed up,some are more worried about who has been there,paragraphs posted on the internet,spelling and other matters that have zero to do with local improvements.
It does not matter what was in place when the lease was signed,the lease clearly states that the state is under no obligation to honor any preexisting agreements.
I have posted my material facts to back my up my stance,nobody has shown me any legal facts that tie current relationships to a binding contract.
I have even posted the solution to that and the best people can come up with is,you have never been there,we have no problem asking for peoples time and money that, goes into the millions,based solely on,well that’s how we do it.
If you cannot provide the documentation that solidifies the agreement between the state and parties operating on the island,legally,you have no legal standing,me having been there or not is totally irrelevant.
You and others are acting no different then the state,just give me the money and piss off.
The posted lease is the law,what anybody else posts on the internet is irrelevant.
The cities wishlist wants to gift $50 million dollars to the isle,that money would be deposited into the DNR bank account and it would be under no obligation to actually put those funds into the isle,the city cannot force the DNR to specifically allot those funds to the island.
The only thing that will set Belle Isle apart from the other state parks and how it is run,legally,is by state legislature actions.
As it stands the DNR cannot enter into legally binding contracts with any of the existing enterprises currently operating on the island,that is why you guys cannot produce copies of them,after 8 years,until you can all you are doing is pissing in the wind,you are supposed to be looking for permanent solutions and not spending millions of dollars improving something that is subject to change on a whim.
All you have to do in order to prove me wrong is produce the documents that solidifies the island’s future.
Based on some of the replies,you cannot,that is why you have to resort to the tired reply’s that played a part in destroying the park in the first place.
Youguy are feeling tantrummy, again?
Folks on here are debating the need for rehabilitating and improving the island, notwithstanding the finer points of contracts as they stand. You then accuse [[you guys) of letting the island disintegrate on their watch.
Youguy’s relentless “one against the world” stance is what makes you a big hit.
My personal fave is the little bit about Trump youguy wove in one of your posts to somehow link this to [[you guys) failure to protect Belle Isle. Why not? Lol
It had zero to do with Trump and everything to do with when there is a window of opportunity open you take it,who is opening the window has little relevance,when you make it relevant,you are only hurting yourself and your community.Quote:
Originally Posted by canuck
The people that live in the region are only here for a period of time,where as the city is there for decades,as each generation flows through the city,they have a duty to protect it and advance it for future generations.
It’s not one against the world,it’s a community fighting to protect what they have while moving the city forward in the proper way,in order to reduce the set backs that occur due to changing conditions.
It all plays into the same group,from protecting the island to saving historical buildings to implementing public transportation,if you do not have a solid foundation at the start,IE something that is legally protected so it is not subject to change as administrations change,it remains protected forever.
The difference between you and me is you look at the here and now and laser focused on a specific object,where a city is based on a bigger picture.
What is going on with the island is repeating the mistakes of the past,the key is to recognize them and prevent them from happening again,it is clear that there is opposition in doing that,for whatever motive,as there are clearly some that prefer the city and region to stay the same.
I do not need to live or visit the city or island to invest in it,I have a right to protect my investment,the city still owns the park and someday it will return to the city.
I do not care if you do not like me or my posts,the city guarantees my investment,actually the taxpayers do,if I see something that may pose a threat in the future to the city and my investment,I am going to say or do something,sense you are not backing my investment as they say Frankly my dear ,I do not give a damn what you think about me.
I invested in what was once the greatest cities in the country that impacted the world,I believe in it and I believe it can achieve that again,If I see something I will say something,it does not matter even if it is from 1200 miles away.
It has now been 8 years under state control,the only major announcement that I have seen is the moving of the race to downtown,from the comments I have seen here and other places,not much groundbreaking improvements have been made,and you do not need to mow the grass when it is covered in snow.
So the next question would be what does it take to move it forward in a more rapid and productive manner,to me it takes going back to the beginning and seeing what roadblocks are in place that need to be addressed and what are the limitations.
Intil you do that you are not doing anything different in the last 8 years as you are going to be doing in the next 8 years.
Plus you have to look at the states point of view,are they really going to put millions into a park that they have to return to the city,that is millions in capital investment or are they going to just do what it takes ground maintenance wise in order to keep it clean.
It needs capital investment in order to maximize,that takes private agreements that the state may not be in the position to implement.
So the way I am looking at it,8 years later is it time to revisit the original lease terms in order to tweak it,the city has the power to make decisions in regards to the operation and allowing private enterprise to run functions on the island that the state does not.
I do not know if they could revamp it where the state retains it as a state park but sub-leases back to the city the rights to running the structure aspect,who could then sub lease parts out to private enterprises.
Every year that goes by there are structures continuing to deteriorate and soon they will be at the point of no return and the state is not obligated to repair or replace them,it will be subject to the state’s budget as to if they will continue to exist or not.
Richard... unless you have actually been to Belle Isle over the years "to walk the walk"... [most of us locals have been there over 100 times over the years]... then your "talk the talk" about any problems with the lease to the state are just that.... talk.
Maybe if you visited between 2014 when the state took over... until now... you would have seen the improvements to the park. The park has had over $300 million in deferred maintenance... and it is being taken care of piece by piece. The island has been neglected for 1/2 century, so 8 year since the state took over has not been enough to fix everything.
With the Grand Prix leaving the island to go back downtown, removing the remains [such as the vast paved paddock area] has yet to begin... but will vastly improve the beauty of the island.
Here is an article about recent improvements... hey Southen, I see they are using your photos... cool! ;)
https://detourdetroiter.com/big-chan...favorite-park/
With the Ralph Wilson Foundation [he was the late owner of the Buffalo Bills football team] mandated to spend $600 million in Detroit improvements over the next 20 years, I can picture that organization to contribute to add to the improvements of Belle Isle, just as the foundation has spent over $50 million in city park improvements/expansions in the last 6 years [especially the $40+ million to create the new riverfront Ralph Wilson Centennial Park].
With the exception of the ill fated opening of the lagoon systems to the river [causing flooding and deforestation in the islands eastern woodlands], much of the park infrastructure has not looked this good in over 50 year.
The one major area that has yet to be addressed is what to do with the former Belle Isle Zoo... either tear it down, or reuse it in some capacity.
Nice of you to throw in the ad hominem,not surprised:)
What protections are put in place that protects all of that improvement so it does not revert back to its current state in the future.
You can talk all you want but you cannot dismiss what happens in the future,recession's,change of administrations,funding priorities at the state level,state budget cuts the list goes on.
You are also completely ignoring what the people are looking for in the park,they are paying for it,and their suggestions are exactly what it needs as a buffer against all of the above.
If they create the ability to lease aspects of it legally,they would do it triple net,who ever leases a building would be responsible for the fixing and maintenance instead of the time and money aspect being placed on the taxpayers.
They can put things online that generate traffic and revenue in order to decrease the burden there and when it all comes together in the future it is mostly self supporting.
The goal being in not repeating the mistakes of the past,not sure why you are so opposed to that.
But then again you view a legally binding document as irrelevant,so if you do not even understand the basics I guess I cannot expect you to understand anything more complex then a sippy cup.
If you own a house,do you have a contract with the bank or did you just tell them,do not bother ?
^ Richard, I have said many things about you in the past [as have many others], but I have never gone Ad Hominem on you... I know all the logic fallacies, and Lowell does not permit name calling on this forum. There are dozens of people who are no longer on this forum because of that, but I've been here over 23 years, so I know what Ad Hominem is and isn't [your use of the "sippy cup" insult towards me does go in that direction, but I look at who said it].
It's just when you post here, and pretend to be so knowledgeable on every subject, that you become annoying... especially since you've never set foot on Belle Isle. You look at a legal document... and most of us here look at the results by visiting the island often, and seeing for ourselves. It's really that simple. So stop obsessing over the document [oh how I wish our lawyer friend 3WC was still here, he'd probably give you an earful on city/state government legalese].
It took over 70 years of neglect to get the island to how it was around the time of the bankrupcy... and it's not going to be fixed in 10 years.
So I'm not wasting anymore time on your inane comments [and weak analogies] about how a legal document is causing Belle Isle to be neglected. It's not. :cool:
This whole thread is just another exercise in Richard's paranoia and complete distrust of any governmental organization.
I say hobby Richard because you spend hours talking about a park you have never been to in a city you have never visited. I spent hours in the park volunteering and spending time in nature last week. You won't find me on message boards for places I have never been to arguing with locals to invalidate their first hand experiences with the place. :p
^ Yep. Well stated. Time is very valuable - priorities must be maintained.
I took a ride about the island recently. Great. Making a concerted effort to go more often. My parents took me to the park often as a child. We did the same with ours. Different areas of the isle provide different experiences.
One of my favorite spots is that narrow east walkway towards the old light house that looks straight on lake St. Clair. There are a few benches there with a straight-on awesome view of the few remaining freighters come thru.
You cannot even comprehend the difference between neglected and protected,and as par to the course you spin everything around to fit your narrative with ad hominem in order to bolster your counter point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
I already posted it was not going to be fixed in 10 years,but yet you twist it around like I said something different,there is a difference between reading something and comprehension.
Just because you said the lease is not with limitations it does not mean it has no limitations,I provided the facts,you have done nothing to counter that outside of throwing barbs and writing words that have zero to do with my point.
Just because you have limitations in life when it comes to matters outside of your little bubble you automatically assume everybody else does.
I can see what happened under your watch and yet you still hold fast to everybody else does not have a clue.
Everytime anybody brings up any suggestions that would make the city a better place to live,you are right there telling everybody how it will not work,then you defend that stance to the point where the person making the suggestion is screwed up for even thinking of it in the first place.
Until people like you that retain that mentality step aside and allow things to progress you will not be able to have nice things,because people like that will be right there telling everybody else how they cannot do something verses how they can.
Clearly you are not aware that there are people that drive every street of the city and the park while video documenting it,you do not need to physically be somewhere to actually see it,all you are doing showcasing your limitations.
Lots of people can do something for 23 years,it’s called doing something without actually doing anything.
The whole thing is pathetic and some kind of sick addiction for him to spend the last years of his life with so many hours spent daily on a message board pretending to be an expert on a city and region that he has never set foot in. It is a shame that there is no one around him who cares enough to give him the help he needs to enjoy something remotely constructive.
Back to the island.
I find the state has failed on some of the most obvious basic affordable improvements. Surface drainage in the picnic areas is not functioning. Watching families with children navigate around mud and stagnant rain water for so long has been frustrating. Surface drain tile installation is highly mechanized and the tile cost is cheap even by today’s construction materials standards. A budget for the improvement based on what can be afforded annually and then starting in the worst places in the picnic areas and continuing to chip away at the problem yearly could have made a significant difference over the last decade.
You posted points that I have brought up after making a childish comment about me when I posted it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit
WTF
You guys seem to get off on creating discourse in a thread when I posted a simple question.
It is totally irrelevant what has been done or what is going to be done,the only thing that is relevant in my discussion is how is what is being done now and in the future going to be protected legally so it does not revert back to the state it is currently in.
All you guys have done is par to the course,not answered the question and went off in tangents that had zero to do with the question and then flipped it around as if I am the bad one.
Then the best you can come up with is the lane ass excuse that,you do not live here.
And the winner of the century,a legally binding document is not a legally binding document,then defend that stance repeatedly.
Make sure you inform all of the non profits in the city and Belle isle to never except outside support, because sense they do not live there they have no business in any city business,let me know how that works out.
Nice. I've never gone to this pond at the Isle. Looks nice from photos I found. Will check out soon!
https://www.google.com/search?source...&bih=610&dpr=1
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatriate
One thing we all seem to be forgetting is a 2 going on 3 yr pandemic when most people haven't actually been working on the Island or much of anything else. Maybe some actual work will get started soon.
I don't think we forgot about the pandemic, its more about the years before it. I understand there has been some cleanup efforts, but its so much empty space its close to laughable.Quote:
Originally Posted by jcole
The bandshell has been barely utilized [[I think they were showing kids movies there one year), some of the announced projects are still pending like the racquetball courts mentioned before. I don't even know why the water slide and pool were closed. I'd be happy with a simple bike rental stand being put up for people to cruise around, even if they start closing off vehicle access through the forest. To even put up a couple of frisbee golf nets where the mini-golf course was before seems like minimal effort wasted.
I really wish they would bring back:Quote:
Originally Posted by expatriate
The old Lily Pond [[much, much larger than the tiny one smushed against a corner of the conservatory building) -
-Return Central Avenue to the tree-lined, pedestrian-only road that it originally was:
-Another poster said bring back the horses. I concur. My heart sunk when I heard the old stables are going to be rebuilt at Greenfield Village, as if Belle Isle doesn't exist anymore? The State DNR actually has experience with horse stables and horse riding at nearby Maybury State Park.
-The 9-hole golf course: make it into a permanent disc golf course
-Some kind of animals: the zoo existed across 3 CENTURIES from 1895-2001. Let's bring some element of that back, even if it is only the white-tailed deer pen and feeding them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjoaDimlFxg
Please Ignore This Giant Bronze Statue
{and other stories from Detroit’s Belle Isle}
Quote:
"Please take this money to build a beautiful public landmark. And also a giant statue. Of me," said the local Detroit nuisance.
The stories behind two of Belle Isle's most notable landmarks: a marble fountain funded by a scoundrel, and a marble lighthouse built in honor of a Great Lakes shipping pioneer.
Meanwhile, the casino will be closed until further notice for roof replacement...https://scontent-ord5-2.xx.fbcdn.net...iw&oe=645B382B
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maof
The kind of architecture that puts a smile on my face, and then a little tear in the corner of my eye when I look at what is now being built around us. A real treasure.
Does anyone know what they are going to do with the paddock area [sea of concrete]? That needs to go real badly!! :eek:
I sat in on a conservancy zoom last year and asked that question. Sadly there are no plans for it currently and I think they are focused on putting their efforts elsewhere. Penske should be the one to pay for its' removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
I agree it is a eyesore and it would be nice if the paddock was removed but there is some park benefit to having it. Many times I have seen parents taking the little ones there to skate board, roller blade, and ride bikes. On a pretty day last fall on the paddock I witnessed a 4 year old take his 2 wheeler solo for the first time. That’s alway fun to see. It is a great place that’s in a park for those kinds of activity's away from traffic with no obstacles. So… There’s that up side for what it’s worth.Quote:
Originally Posted by southen
Link isn't available for Central Ave. The old lily pond looks fantastic.Quote:
Originally Posted by masterblaster
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maof
Such a beautiful structure. Detroit had some of the best architecture in the country, only to lose a lot of it to abandonment and disrepair.
I think you could get rid of 95% of it and still have that option. A lot of times when I am over at Oudolf working the DPD will be doing obstacle courses in that space and all you could hear was screeching tires for a couple of hours. Those were headphone mornings instead of being able to enjoy the sounds of nature and tranquility on the island in the morning.Quote:
Originally Posted by ABetterDetroit
Hard to think "landscaped parking lot" without thinking of you-know-who but it wouldn't hurt to put some planter boxes and benches on it as a short term solution to deter cars and help with aesthetics.Quote:
Originally Posted by southen
Beautiful! Reminds me a bit of Monet's water lily pond in Giverny. Would love to see something like it here on Belle Isle!Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincinnati_Kid
The pond between the Conservatory and Aquarium is quite beautiful. The city keeps the people behind the fence to protect it from vandalism... and to keep children from falling in and drowning.
^^ That is a beautiful scene! But it hasn't looked like that when I've stopped by the Conservatory!!
There is also a road that was added for the Grand Prix that's just southeast of the fountain that needs to be removed in addition to the paddock.Quote:
Originally Posted by southen
Also, take away the pedestrian bridge supports and the ruts in the cricket field next to the Casino from the heavy semi-trucks of the race. I wonder how much damage was done to the McArthur Bridge from the heavy semi trucks. They are repairing it this summer.Quote:
Originally Posted by royce
Repair the statute of General Starkey Williams that apparently was hit by a car within the last week.
Donate the island to Ivanhoe [The Polish Yacht Club] as a reparation for the destruction of Poletown, the Round Bar, etc.
Did it happen again? We were just there two weeks ago and I know it was hit in late 2021. The fire damage was mostly cleaned up compared to when it was hit....https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/eas...le-isle-statueQuote:
Originally Posted by GPCharles
The 56 y.o. man whose car crashed into the statue Dec. 2021 died, I think DNR said it was a suicide. I suggested to Scott Pratt [[DNR Southern Field Operations Chief) that the DNR contact the driver's insurance company to collect repair cost of the statue. Oliver Dewey Marcks Foundation renovated the statue about 20 years ago. They should be contacted to repair it again but use the insurance money from the man who hit the statue. I also talked to Amanda Treadwell [[Urban Field Planner DNR) to do this before the time to claim money is gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maof
I guess the question is how often do you hear that? This feels like a good balance. Most of the time its tranquility in sound there near the Oudolf garden, while sometimes DPD is enjoying and using the great Belle Isle Park as well. Yes one of your senses is then disrupted but then more people are enjoying a dynamic island.Quote:
Originally Posted by southen
Do you know what the street on Belle Isle that has a German name translates to? INSELRUHE... means "QUIET ISLAND". :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLemur
So unless you are going down the "greased" giant slide... things should be pretty quiet in the park in general... :cool: