I have heard that there was a recording made of his epic testimony - which included many heated verbal exchanges with southern legislators - on Feb. 28, 1952. Has anyone here ever heard the testimony? And is there anyway to obtain a copy?
I have heard that there was a recording made of his epic testimony - which included many heated verbal exchanges with southern legislators - on Feb. 28, 1952. Has anyone here ever heard the testimony? And is there anyway to obtain a copy?
I recall that it was played on WDET at length on the day CAY died. It was great.
Ah, yes, I remember the one southern Senator - can't recall which one - kept saying this and that about the "Nigras", as he was pronouncing it, and Young admonished him, "The word is 'negro'. Speak more clearly."
Then later, when asked whether he thought this or that activity was unamerican, replied with "I find these hearings to be unamerican".
I'm paraphrasing, my memory is not what it once was, but this is the way he was talking to the United States Senate, and God bless him for it.
I wonder how many folks out there voted for Coleman Young "once" in 1973. I felt Coleman was the right guy in '73, certainly over John Nichols, a rather bitter sounding Detroit cop. I think Coleman hit is political peak in his first term as mayor.
First or possibly second. After that he was coasting. In 1973 he had a good idea of what the problems were; by 1980 the problems had changed but his opinions had not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Publican
Young stayed in office at least two terms too long. But his accomplishments during his first two terms were numerous. I would say in those eight years he was the best mayor of Detroit since the decline began in the early 1950s. I emphasize those eight years.
I voted for him in 73, 77, 81 and 85. I wasn't enthusiastic about voting for him in 85, but his opponent, Tom Barrow, showed signs of the craziness that later made him the male version of Sharon McPhail.
By 89 I no longer was living in Detroit.
What were his accomplishments?Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey
besides barrow, were there ever any 'serious' rivals during his tenure?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjk
None that I can think of beside being a thug and a crook. Compared to Young, Kwame was the most perfect, honest and honorable politician in the history of the world.
You can candy-coat his tyranny any way you want to, but he was definitely the beginning of the end of the City.
Intergrated the Police and Fire departments along with other city departments. The Renaissance Center, Millender Center, Detroit One Center, the Madden Building, Joe Louis Arena, Police Mini Stations, revamped the civic center, brought in Southwest Airlines and actually got some use out of City Airport. Led the charge that integrated Wayne County Municipal Government. The People Mover [[ironically enough, his original plans, that were fought tooth and nail, called for the people mover to stretch all over the metro area). The Riverfront apartments, Virginia Park, Victoria Park. The Poletown Plant. Managed to have real Ethnic Festivals that ran every week for 5-6 months a year. And managed to have some of the most entertaining quotes that you'll ever hear.Quote:
Originally Posted by rjk
Sure he had his failings, but he did manage to get some things accomplished. And they shouldn't be overlooked.
His testimony before HUAC was his finest hour, but his reform of the DPD was overdue and very important. As for Poletown ... a good argument why he should have been a one-term mayor.Quote:
Originally Posted by kraig
While I listed it as one of his accomplishments, I do agree with your sentiments on the Poletown Plant. I've never been a fan of eminient domain, which is one of the problems I have with the DRIC. The similarities between the two are horrifying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
The House of Un-American Activities Committee accused Coleman A. Young of organizing an 'different upside down union'. Sen. McCarthy called it COMMUNISM! If convicted he could BLACKLISTED out of the American life for good. He might as well go to the Soviet Union and work collectively for the Kremlin.
WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET
In 1950's America, who side are you on? The Blue Eagle or the Red Grizzly Bear!
Neda, I miss you so.
Don't forget that he regularly balanced the budgets as well. I remember during one of the elections, there were billboards around the city with a big smiling picture of him with the slogan, "The Money's Right", and went on to tout something like 5 straight balanced budgets.Quote:
Originally Posted by kraig
Y'all been drinkin' the Koolaid again.
The City Airport mess alone should have gotten Hizzonah tossed into river with an anchor around his neck.
Don't just leave us hanging. What happened with the Airport?Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddle
What became of Coleman's lover Ann Ivory? The last I heard, she landed a job with the City of Fontana, CA, maybe as director of parks and rec. Is Joel Loving, Coleman's son with Ann Ivory, the fella that changed his name to Coleman Young Jr. and the fella that ran for city council?
In the mid 70', my friend and I crashed some bigwig party downtown. We were cute young women who could get away with stuff like this.
We were standing somewhere when Coleman Young came out and we asked him if he would take a picture with us. He obliged. We were all arm-in-arm as the camera flashed. He had on body armor.
I have no idea where that picture is or I would post it. it's somewhere in my stuff.
The whole bit about Southwest and closing E. McNichols trying to fake it as an airport. Doomed to failure from before the drawing board. Should have been left as a corporate and general aviation facility. And should be restored to that now. A typical Coleman farce.Quote:
What happened with the Airport?
To me, that would be on par with a picture with Charles Manson.Quote:
We were standing somewhere when Coleman Young came out and we asked him if he would take a picture with us. He obliged. We were all arm-in-arm as the camera flashed.
Coleman Young Jr. is now a State Senator in Michigan. His mother has been running his campaigns and has ran for offices herself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Publican
[QUOTE=Meddle;253425]The whole bit about Southwest and closing E. McNichols trying to fake it as an airport. Doomed to failure from before the drawing board. Should have been left as a corporate and general aviation facility. And should be restored to that now. A typical Coleman farce.
As I remember it, this was being done at the same time that Chicago was having plenty of success with Midway Airport doing the same thing. The plan was to install a longer runway to accomodate the demand for larger commercial aircraft. There was actually a very thorough airport master plan that was put together. The City Council back then balked at that plan during the same time period that they turned down letting Comerica build their headquarters were a vacant Ford Auditorium is still standing.
After the City Council said no to developing the Airport, Northwest Airlines, which had shown a very strong interest in setting up some operations at City Airport, ended up having to work out a much more expensive expansion [[450+ million) at Metro Airport. Had City Council said yes, the City of Detroit would probably have at least a half dozen major airlines operating out of city airport along with the corporate and general aviation operators that packed up and went to the Oakland County International Airport, due to the fact, that the new larger plans that they were acquiring could not be accomodated by city airport either. Subsequently, making Oakland County's airport one of the busiest in the country at that time and still very busy today.
Like I said, Coleman had his faults. But having a vision to turn City Airport into a real airport wasn't one of them.
It's incredible, and I mean incredible in the true sense of that word, to compare Coleman Young to Charles Manson.
To say he should have been tossed in the river with an anchor around his neck for the airport, and then the only thing that can be mentioned about the airport is that is was a "farce" because it should have remained corporate and general aviation seems the product of nothing more than pure hatred.
To claim he was a "thug" and give no incidences of violence he committed against anyone [['cause that's what thugs do) is equally incredible.
To call him a crook and not be able to point to any occasions when he was indicted for anything is irresponsible.
He stayed in office too long. He began to think of himself as synonymous with "Detroit". A few of his people were crooks, but some of them were far more effective and much better executive material than any we have had in place since.
He has a legacy that is greater than his time as mayor. That will not be erased by those who only knew of him for some 20-odd years and got pissed ever since he told criminals to "hit 8 Mile" and insisted upon inclusion of those who had been disenfranchised - something he fought for long before he got involved in politics.
The man has been dead for a long time and he can still touch a raw nerve in many people. Perhaps that will be his greatest accomplishment of all, for it gives him a form of immortality, at least in these parts.
Yeah, it's probably not fair to Manson. Even he wasn't as evil as Young.Quote:
It's incredible, and I mean incredible in the true sense of that word, to compare Coleman Young to Charles Manson.
Not long enough. If he had died in the 60s and never tainted Detroit, the city might be a better place now.Quote:
The man has been dead for a long time
I imagine that if you were a die-hard racist, and really enjoyed the Detroit Police Department being an instrument of the white power movement, and hated that Detroit had the distinction of being among the first major U.S. cities to long-overdue vote in a black mayor ... then I guess you'd hate Coleman Young your whole life long, and never see any benefit from him, even that first term.
A lot of folks around here, Meddle included it seems, have never forgiven Coleman Young for his first failing in their eyes - one of having the wrong pigmentation. Once you start there, it's pretty damn hard to be objective about anything else a person does.
His only failing in my eyes is that of being a thieving, lying crook.
His one goal was filling his own pockets, just like Kwame.
Alright then, Meddle. You'll be perfectly within your rights to list all his heinous crimes right here, right now.
Or STFU.
And yet he didn't die a particularly wealthy man.
Regarding City Airport, City Council was not the only entity standing in the way of the planned expansion. IIRC, there was actually some support for the plan on the Council. Much of the protests came from suburban politicians and residents in Oakland and Macomb county. The mayor of Warren, for example, was quite outspoken against the idea of increased air traffic over his city. Politicians in Oakland County were against the expansion of City Airport, while at the same time proposing expansion and more utilization of the airport in Oakland County.
There was also some protest by some residents in the area of City Airport, as well as some people who had relatives buried in the nearby cemetary. Whatever the case, a great opportunity was missed, as an expanded airport would have been a huge boost for the City, in my opinion. In the past I have flown in and out of City on both Southwest and Pro Air, and it was always so much more convenient. A mini version of Midway airport on the East side would actually be a benefit for the whole region.
I am amazed that anyone could say that Coleman Young was dirtier than Kwame Kilpatrick.
When you post ignorant statements like this, you loose all credibility with your argument, or lack thereof.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddle
Like others have said, the man wasn't perfect, but to ignore his accomplishments is to bury your head in the sand. And the difference between Coleman and Kwame was that Coleman actually cared about Detroit, while Kwame's goal was to line his pockets.
Maybe not dirtier. How about just as dirty? Two peas in a pod?Quote:
Originally Posted by Motor City Sam
Coleman Young: Vista Disposal, Magnum Oil, Gold Krugerrands...
You might be right about Northwest having had plans for flight operations from City Airport, but I don't recall that. They may have had plans for limited operations from DET [[like to the hubs at Minneapolis-St Paul and Memphis and selected cities on the East Cost and in Florida), but that would not have made building the McNamara terminal unnecessary. Metro already was a major hub for NW, and that hub wasn't going anyplace. The old terminal at Metro, while adequate in the 60's, was completely inadequate and an embarrassment for the region by the 90's. Having said that, it would have been good for the region had the plan to extend the main runway at DET gone through. Having that as an option would make travel way easier for the east side and Macomb.
I do recall the outcry over paving over parts of the cemeteries, and the objections from the mayor of Warren. This one I'd class as a nice try on CAY's part.
You're comparing a man who was never so much as charged with a crime while Mayor, despite the feds running an investigation on him since before he was a state rep, with a guy who was is currently sitting in state prison after being convicted of two felonies, along with parole violation, and is facing two separate federal indictments totaling over 30 counts. That's not "just as dirty" or "two peas in a pod".Quote:
Originally Posted by Thames
You wanna say Young did some dirt I won't call you crazy for it, but saying he was as bad as Kwame just isn't being objective.
Thanks to Kraig for articulating some of Mayor Young's accomplishments. Those of us who have been around and know Detroit history know that there have been far worse Mayors...corrupt Mayors...before Coleman Young, and those names have been mentioned in these threads before. I do know this: whenever I contacted the Mayor by letter, I always received a response back...and not a formatted response either.
Not as sophisticated as Kwame [[that was a different time), but his heart was in the same place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Motor City Sam
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motor City Sam
I remember the protests from Warren at that time. However, the only entity that actually had a vote was the Detroit City Council, and as a body, they voted no. Since then, no one has ever really taken city airport seriously.
They didn't plan to move operatiosn from Metro, Northwest just wouldn't have had to spend as much as they did expanding at Metro if they had been in a position to do some expanding of their midwest operations at city airport. The cost of doing business at city airport is far less expensive than at metro. Thereby, lowering that 450+ million to around 300+ million. Beleive me, I'm with you regarding the former Northwest Airlines not giving up their largest hub which is Metro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don K
Stumbled across this today: http://www.archive.org/stream/commun...search/Coleman
I remember what the City of Detroit was like during CAY's first term. It was a wonderful place to live, filled with fantastic neighborhoods. It was the equal of any of the great cold weather big cities. Everything you needed was located within the city limits.
By the end of CAY's final term, the city looked pretty much as it does now.
How that man kept getting re elected has always been a mystery to me.
Ummm no it doesn't.... the outlying neighborhoods are in much worse condition than they were in 1993 when Young left office. 48224 was still a copper canyon of middle class well tended homes. Now much of that zip code is rental property with empty lots strewn about.... property values only about 25% of what they once were...Quote:
Originally Posted by softailrider
The RencCen was all Henry Ford II really.Quote:
Originally Posted by kraig
And the project began preparation under Roman Gribbs, CAY was just the mayor when it was finished.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick
Wow. Some of those accomplishments were huge in a time where racism wasn't just the norm -- but actual policy -- in Detroit. I think he overstayed when the problems of the city were more complicated than overtly offensive civil rights issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddle
But if it weren't for what he did, the racist bullshit I put up with as a kid in the 1980s would probably have extended well into the 90s and on.
I'm not a CAY fanboy at all and have more far more criticisms than compliments. Hell, my dad worked for the city and he couldn't stand CAY and his antagonistic rhetoric toward our suburban neighbors. But let's not forget that some of the stuff he accomplished was necessary and took courage and conviction.
Yeah, there's a lot of neighborhoods that are much worse then in 1993. The zip code 48224 means nothing to me, not even sure where it is. That's not the point I was trying to make, in 1993, when CAY left office, the city was a fucked up mess. It went downhillQuote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
at a steady and very noticable rate during his terms in office. I've been living and / or working in the city for 50 years, I saw it happen right in front of my eyes.
Thanks, MikeM. That fiery brand is definitely lacked by our current public officials.
I guess actual proven corruption and criminality are all right so long as the mayor doing it did it while the city was seemingly on the up-and-up, and so long as he was one of "us."
Miriani [['57 to '62) was convincted of federal tax invasion, though he only got caught after leaving office. One can only imagine the sh%t he was doing while in office. This is not even to mention that while city council president, he was involved in a drive to reverse his own council's plan to integrate a housing development in the city. He wasn't able to pull it over on them, but he got his way from the mayor.
Albert Cobo [[50' to 57'), the mayor during the time, did everything in his power to appease city racists, tolerating in his city the intolerable, and he was rightfully and eventually rewarded with defeat for his lack of leadership of dealing with the issues of all of the citizens of Detroit.
Before these two, you had Richard Reading [[38' to 40') who was actually convicted and incarcerated after he left office of accepting bribes and for his involvement in protecting city gambling rackets during his tenure as mayor.
At the end of the day, Young's major failure was that he just happened to be the mayor left holding the bag when urban areas the country over were going to hell because some people didn't want to live among other people. Detroit's decline started long before Young ever set his foot in the City-Council Building as mayor.
He stayed far too long, and at least in my opinion, his greatest failure was not finding a way to head off the crack epidemic in the 80's, which in my opinion was probably the tipping point towards the point of no return. But, this dislike, nay, personal loathing of the mans peaks more about the people who harbor this personal hatred of him than it does about Young. Detroit was a politically dirty, tough city before Coleman. What changed more than anything else is the structural change in the global economy.
I agree I grew up in the periphy on the west side. 48228 is much worse now than it was then. There is no comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
My biggest complaint was almost all development under CAY was centered around downtown. Other things that were not brought up yet include the Cobo expansion, Joe Louis, the malls along Woodward and Washington [[disasters), reconstruction of the belle isle bridge, the beginning of the riverwalk with Chene, St. Aubin, and Mt Elliot parks, Harbortown, Stroh's Riverplace, and the integration of city departments so a person of color had a chance to be something other than a garbageman.
Your absolutely correct about that and I think Coleman would have fought harder against Engler's campaign to end the residency requirement which helped keep copper canyon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gistok
Also, I'll add that the far east portion of the now infamous 48205 was pretty well kept, especially around Kelly Road.
Thanks for the link, MikeM. That is just awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM
A myopic and uneducated but prevalent viewpoint. The beginning of the end for the city began in the summer of 1925 at 2905 Garland Street. The systematic institutional racism and the inability of our leaders to combat has stymied this city for decades. If you are able, read " Arc of Justice ". Coleman was a product of our times, as we all are, but he didn't create the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meddle
Interesting tidbit...Quote:
Originally Posted by ridgeabilly
The event that happened on Garland was also the genesis for this.
The original here, http://darrow.law.umn.edu/documents/...e_372_1927.pdf
/thread ended hereQuote:
Originally Posted by rjk
I agree that Coleman Young was a product of our times, but Detroit peaked much later than 1925 and to suggest any different is the definition of "myopic." There is little doubt the city peaked sometime in the 1950s, it was really the center of the industrial universe. Elm-lined streets, great neighborhoods, jobs a plenty. Where Detroit went wrong was the influx of poor southern trash, white or black, same thing. People with no skills, no future, no aspirations outside the lottery mentality converging on our fair city for the easy buck.Quote:
Originally Posted by ridgeabilly
So for every ten upstanding, hard working, American dream living people, there were three or four bottom of the barrel humans. 7th-grade-educated, hand out, head in the sand, barely able to sustain person of disregard. Then they bred, they stood on the corner, they tried to work but were rebuffed because they lacked the essential makeup of what would be an average worker.
Then they reproduced. All the southern white hate for blacks multiplied, upstanding blacks were lumped in with trash blacks, everyone was afraid of one another, and the system collapsed.
Per the topic of the thread, Coleman Young exacerbated the problem with is free-wheeling approach to politics and lack of common sense. Detroit had transitioned from economic powerhouse to something America has never seen before. The auto industry was declining, the riots were fresh, and people were generally afraid of each other. The fair housing act was really the last straw IMO, people think it was the riots but the fair housing act really changed Detroit forever. Not saying it was a bad thing, it just wasn't what Detroit needed.
So Coleman took over and he made the tax base even more afraid than they already were. I was born a year before Young took office, and he was my mayor until I left in 1986. The crack epidemic was the final straw, but Coleman Young never really helped what ailed Detroit. By the time he was in his third term he was just coasting, and the city was on its' way to being broke forever.
Sure he did some good, how could he not have in 20+ years as the mayor. But he ignored the real problems of the city at the most critical time, and he was always searching for some fight to win. No one won, and everyone who ever lived in the city lost. Think all you want that the city was lost in 1925, the best years of the city occurred well after that date. To think otherwise is foolish IMO.
I don't agree with your sociological opinions, but you hit the CAY part right on the head.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lombaowski
CAY was a product of his times. To be sure. And I liked and respected much about him. He however was not what Detroit needed. He was unnecessarily divisive when we needed someone to unify Detroit. He chose to focus on the past issues that divided the races, not on taking steps to promote solidarity when Detroit was getting attacked by economic forces. Most major American cities have struggled mightily against these forces, and some have survived better than others. Detroit didn't struggle much. We were in denial. And in many ways we still are. We are bankrupt, but we don't believe it. Some talk of 'occupation' and the stripping of democratic power. The real problem is the failure of Detroit to be relevant. We can continue to obsess about local control or whether blacks or whites run Detroit or whether Belle Isle is being 'occupied' -- or we can get to work changing Detroit. We seem to prefer our denial. No changes to anything. Just find some more money so we can go on just like yesterday.
For this reason, I hope the Grand Bargain fails. I think the best thing for Detroit is to see the finances of the city collapse. City workers laid off in large numbers. And I can't even imaging what pain the pensioners will feel. Bad now?
I believe what ridgeabilly meant was that the events of that moment in 1925 on Garland started something that was never healed. Not that the city didn't prosper and grow from that point [[1925 was, in fact, near the height of the city's growth rate), but that the wheels set in motion then eventually overtook all else and stained nearly everything that happened thereafter.Quote:
Originally Posted by ridgeabilly
I also agree with Wesley, for once, that Coleman Young, whatever his accomplishments, was not the best mayor for that period in the city's history. It was clear by the late '60s and early '70s that it was only a mater of time until a black mayor was elected in Detroit. But one does have to wonder how much the long-term outcome would have been affected had, say, Richard Austin [[definitely a more conciliatory figure) won the extremely close 1969 election and beaten Young to the mayoralty. Would so many white Detroiters have over-reacted so badly as they did after the much more divisive 1973 campaign?
One also has to wonder the same question on race relations on a national level. What if the moderates like Martin Luther King had won instead of the radicals like Malcolm X. Would race relations have been better? My personal experiences make me think it could have turned out better.Quote:
Originally Posted by EastsideAl
There's a similar argument on abortion. That the national court-driven decision was more divisive that the state-level battles might have been -- with the same ultimate result but less acrimony.
Back to Detroit and CAY -- I can't quite look at CAY and see how he really helped Detroit much. He didn't help race relations, to be sure. What he did do was aggressively integrate city government. It needed to be done. And in concert with national hiring to administer social programs helped create a vibrant middle-class in Detroit. If CAY had also found a way to sell this to white Detroiters, he might have been a true hero.
For the most part, white Detroiters in the 60s and 70s were racially progressive. Look at Jerry Cavanaugh. He was also aggressively fighting for racial equality. But what happened is those very Detroiters who wanted a solution to race relations fled along with the white bigots when crime started grabbing control of Detroit. CAY did spout the right rhetoric. His famous call for criminals to 'hit 8 Mile Road' and go out to the suburbs presumably was a call to be tough on crime. But he couldn't quite call for more aggresive policing. Instead used that call to antagonize LBP and the suburbs. Conciliation on both sides was needed.
Thanks for agreeing with me, at least once, EastsideAl.
I admired Coleman Young
Me too. I think overall CAY was a positive influence on Detroit. He wasn't perfect. Its reasonable to discuss his weaknesses to help us learn and improve. I count myself as an admirer as well -- overall. Three off the top of my mind things Young should be proud of: 1) DPD integration , 2) Red Wings and JLA in Detroit, 3) Poletown keeping GM building cars right in the city limits. [[And of course he can be proud of his testimony before the HUAC.)Quote:
Originally Posted by SDCC