http://www.freep.com/article/2014012...dtown-CorktownQuote:
Originally Posted by TennisAndMath
Be forewarned, this is from a legitimate, accepted news source so you probably won't believe it anyway.
http://www.freep.com/article/2014012...dtown-CorktownQuote:
Originally Posted by TennisAndMath
Be forewarned, this is from a legitimate, accepted news source so you probably won't believe it anyway.
My apologies, but I don't understand why people criticize something they have absolutely no knowledge about. I'll keep it within the topic here on the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by mwilbert
Bingo. Nobody has prevented Ol' Mike from constructing apartments on his moonscape [[or bringing his existing dilapidated properties into a State of Good Repair, for that matter). We've seen numerous buildings undergo renovation and construction while the Macedonian Mob sat on their asses, waiting for a shake down of the City again, er, "waiting for demand". This is all about grabbing as much public ca$hola as possible, and it keeps happening because the apologists believe every single word that comes out of that lying bastard's mouth, and attempt to shout down anyone who doesn't live in their economic fantasyland. Because, Stanley Cup or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Honky Tonk
regardless, he doesn't get the money unless the shovels go in the ground... so I suppose that's something.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
Again, not that I believe anything other than parking decks and stadium will be built by Olympia.
Except virtually every single other major development that required reconstruction or significant renovation to a building over the last decade or so hasn't happened in Detroit without some form of subsidizing from various private and public sources. Remember when the Book-Cadillac required something like 23 different forms of funding, most of them public, in order to get done?Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
Why do they get a pass on their "ca$hola" in your eyes yet you hammer the Ilitches as being the "Macedonian Mob"?
The bottom line is that rental rates in Detroit have yet to rise to the point where a building is profitable to build, renovate, etc without some form of subsidizing. We are getting very close to that point, but not yet. Until it does, expect more subsidies. That is the reality of the situation. Right now, the city has to invest in itself because the market doesn't believe in the city enough to jump in with both feet yet. This development could help put the city over the top of that threshold.
When the Book-Cadillac renovation began, Ferchill applied for tax credits and various forms of financing for that very specific project. Similar scenarios played out for other projects. These were all for very specific projects whose scope was well-defined. While other owners were using an established process to procure financing for their projects, Mike Ilitch was nowhere to be seen, instead choosing to let his properties deteriorate further. You haven't seen the United Artists Apartments yet, have you?Quote:
Originally Posted by EL Jimbo
Now Mike Ilitch says, "I want a new hockey arena. Give me some money. Oh yeah, I'll maybe build some other stuff too." The scope here is poorly-defined, to put it kindly. There is no guarantee that Ilitch will build anything whatsoever, other than an arena and parking. Detroit and Michigan have provided Mr. Ilitch with a check, using funding sources unavailable to "traditional" developers of residential property. There is a huge difference between using tax credits and using state-guaranteed *bonds*.
But again, this project isn't about constructing residences, because there is absolutely no obligation for Ilitch to even build a doghouse. And why would he? Ilitch already got what he wanted: a big fat check from the City and the State, which he will use to build a new arena that will grossly inflate the value of his team. The City and State, unlike lenders in previous scenarios, will not see any return from their "investment". All of the revenue goes directly to Olympia Entertainment, who isn't obligated to pay the City or State a single damned dime.
There's also the difference in availability of said tax credits. I'm fairly certain that the Book Cadillac and other projects you've mentioned were of historical significance and were eligible for the credits. Last time I checked, the dirt lots where the arena will go are not on the National Register of Historic Places.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
I'm fairly certain that there are a multitude of obligations such as A) purchased materials B) contractors C) construction workers - having to come from Detroit at a clip of over 50%. This is one of the major reasons that the initiative was passed in the first place.
You are correct, he's not obligated to build housing. It's an arena. He could have just had an arena and parking structure drawn up and called it a day.
I'm also not sure how all revenue goes to Olympia. They are leasing the building, not owning it. They have to pay rent. Olympia won't own every business that pop's up there either. Money will trickle out to the bars/restaurants/shops/hotels in the area.
I'd also like to point out that your vitriol toward this project and Mike Illitch in general is a bit over the top. I haven't noticed your thread titled "Dan Gilbert is Fleecing the City" or "Down With Matty" over their acquisitions and business practices, some of which have obviously been questionable. I'm fairly certain that The Palace as well as Ford Field used public financing dollars. Seems to be fairly common practice. It might not be right, but it's how it gets done. Besides, all of us bitching on here won't stop shovels from hitting the ground in a couple months.
I'm not a news source, but I can tell you from my searches 1 and 2 years ago that the following buildings were at 100% capacity:Quote:
Originally Posted by TennisAndMath
Detroit City Apartments
Millender Center [[Renaissance City)
Fyfe Building
Claridge House
Lofts @ Woodward Place
Lofts of Merchant Row
And these were at least very close:
Kales Building
Broderick Tower
And I can tell you that there are 3 new apartment projects going on right now plus 2 in planning, just in Downtown, to meet demand:
1 - The Ashley [[Milner)
2 - The Albert [[Capitol Park)
3 - Aloft [[David Whitney Building) - only partial rental
In planning:
1 - Statler City Apartments [[Statler Hotel site)
2 - New apartments on top of Book Cadillac garage
I'm well aware of United Artists. And I'm not saying that the Ilitch family's hit and miss record on preservation isn't worthy of some skepticism. However, here they are FINALLY proposing to act on all that vacant property they own on a grand scale and yet all you want to focus in on is the arena.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
You do realize that if they get all that money and do absolutely nothing else of what they propose to do outside of the arena that Olympia Entertainment's credibility will be nothing for the next 20 years. Regardless of their past, they very publicly put their name to the success or failure of this endeavor. Something tells me they will follow through on it if only to protect their reputation.
Also, this whole idea that the Ilitches won't build anything beyond the arena is completely absurd. The entirety of the investment to this point is $650M. Of that, only $450M is for the arena. That leaves $200M to go towards the beginning of developing the entertainment district around it.
To give you an idea what that $200M could provide, using the per unit rates for the proposed Statler site development as a guide, that $200M could build as much as 1,200 of the 2,000 proposed residential units that are part of the proposal.
As has been mentioned before, I don't see any penalties. In the absence of penalties and actual "teeth" in the agreement to force them to build anything but the stadium and parking, I don't see it happening. Ilitch has made too many glorious predictions of what he was going to build -- and built nothing -- for me to believe him. His credibility is already nil.Quote:
Originally Posted by EL Jimbo
Plus, it's my understanding that they get the bonus of $62 million whether it's they who build it or not. In an area poised between Midtown and downtown, that's just free money.
The Ilitches took an area of vacant properties and CREATED more of it. And now they're cleaning up their own mess? They're going to develop on 4 of their 40 vacant blocks--Let's not go through with the Beatification just yet, shall we?Quote:
Originally Posted by EL Jimbo
The arena is the only thing that will definitely be constructed. Anything beyond that is mere speculation and hope. Remember, Ilitch has no contractual obligation to go beyond an arena, and Olympia Entertainment is not exactly known for their enormous portfolio of residential properties.
Well, they haven't cared much about their reputation for the past 14 years since Comerica Park opened, have they? You [[among others) obviously think Olympia should be applauded for taking public money to embark on what will be a very profitable endeavor for them, with no accountability to the public. I think they can safely not give a shit about their reputation, ad infinitum.Quote:
You do realize that if they get all that money and do absolutely nothing else of what they propose to do outside of the arena that Olympia Entertainment's credibility will be nothing for the next 20 years. Regardless of their past, they very publicly put their name to the success or failure of this endeavor. Something tells me they will follow through on it if only to protect their reputation.
Can we get a new ghettopalmetto record? This one is broken.
Oy vey. The reason they've been sitting on most of that vacant land for that much time is because a small group of property owners wouldn't sell their property for anywhere near real market value 20 years ago when Comerica Park was supposed to go in behind the Fox. When that fell through, they held onto it in hopes of putting a new hockey arena there. When those owners were again making absurd demands, then they moved the location of the new arena.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
I asked you this question once and you ignored it, but I will ask you again. What if CoPa and Ford Field didn't exist? What if the Ilitch family never bought all that property? What would that part of town look like? Would it be the same? Would it be worse? Or would a string of small time developers have magically come through to develop all that area in spite of the overall trends in Detroit over the past two decades?
PLEASE answer this. I am INCREDIBLY curious as to what your response is. Everybody is a critic, but few people can come up with viable alternatives. Let's see you try.
Or they can spend $650 million on the arena--those bells and whistles in the Ilitch-income-generating luxury suites don't come cheap.Quote:
Originally Posted by EL Jimbo
How many blocks do you need to build a hockey arena?Quote:
Originally Posted by EL Jimbo
That's not part of the agreement. $62M of the public money is for the entertainment district portion. You are clutching at straws here, my friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
talking to an actual palmetto tree would probably be more productive at this point. It has a higher IQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
Oh, I think an arena is a big part of the "entertainment district", don't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by EL Jimbo
It seems that your entire conclusion is predicated in an assumption that requires an enormous leap of faith; that is, enormously subsidized stadium projects are absolutely necessary for any kind of development to take place. Nothing could be more false.
You think Ilitch's baby is going to bring all sorts of new development? What about all the buildings that were lost [[at public expense) for Comerica Park? Those buildings could be apartments right now. What about all the buildings that Ilitch bought and demolished behind the Fox? Those could be under renovation too. If someone-other-than-Ilitch owned the United Artists, I'd speculate that the UA would be under construction as I write this. Point is, this is not a company with a track record of developing property.
Yeah, there will probably be a Bar Louie and a Hockeytown Cafe in the arena building itself. I'm not holding my breath for more than that. We've seen time and again that demolition and huge public subsidies don't necessarily equal new development. More often than not, they result in black holes. Ilitch has damn near demolished half of downtown by himself, and you want to pin a medal on his chest, hoping he doesn't screw you over again. If it takes demolition of half the downtown to develop 4 blocks, then Detroit has no hope whatsoever. I'd love to believe what you're saying, El Jimbo. There just isn't any evidence to support it, though.
Also, since GP insisted that the land speculators were really people who wouldn't sell out to Olympia for a $1 let's do a quick refresher of other recent mega projects in Detroit.
You know those 3 wonderful casinos that sit side-by-side on the river that Detroit has? Yeah me neither. Remember how that was supposed to be the original plan? The Archer Administration had $150M set aside to purchase the 110 acres of land needed to build the casinos on the river. At nearly $1.4M an acre, that was pretty good money for that property.
The problem...The landholders got greedy and that $150M only ended up purchasing 42 acres. When the city couldn't acquire all the land, they told the casinos to find their own locations and the land that was purchased mostly ended up becoming Milliken Park.
So let's not pretend that Olympia has just been sitting on all this property for fun. They've tried to use it...twice.
How many of those buildings were truly worth replacing?Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
Why would anyone replace them? What would the draw be to downtown Detroit?
What would the metropolitan area's opinion of downtown be without the stadiums?
These are all big questions that you are ignoring. Yes, some buildings were lost. But not every building is worth saving.
Also, the stadiums went a long way towards placemaking. Downtown was a destination again. All those things drive interest in an area and help give it an identity that people want to invest and live in.
And you are correct, the arena is a big part of the entertainment district. $450M to be exact. The remaining $200M, including $62M in public funding, has been designated for investment in the entertainment district separate from the arena. It's all right there. You can choose to believe it or not. That's your call.
Lastly, I'm not suggesting we give anyone a medal. All I'm saying is that the 45 block plan is bold in size, scope, and imagination. If they manage to pull it off, it might be the single greatest thing to happen to this city since Henry Ford. I applaud them for trying. I'll hold off on any medals until it is completed.
bwahahahahahahahahahahaha! That's the sweetest, most delusional thing I've ever heard. As they say in the South, "Bless your dear, dear heart."Quote:
Originally Posted by el jimbo
If Ilitch builds out all 45 blocks of the wasteland he created, I'll buy you season tickets. I promise. Let's revisit this thread in three years' time, shall we?
Therein lies part of the problem.... back when they had Eminent Domain for the Stadia district, they were able to acquire the land they needed [[and then some). But with the loss of Eminent Domain, Ilitch could not acquire all the land he needed for the West Foxtown site, so he had to look elsewhere... and play the 2 or 3 sites against each other to determine which would sell.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
Granted the city really suffered in all this... and Ilitch decimated all that laid in his path, even though he ended up building elsewhere. But as Coleman Young found out with the Jefferson North site... even with Eminent Domain... he had to fork over $42 million for one small site, because the savvy owner filled the building with mechanical equipment and had brilliant acquisition attorney Al Ackerman.
So the end result was Ilitch 1.... Detroit 0.... :[[ ... and although they're promoting a wonderful development... I do believe most folks here are realists... and don't expect to see everything coming to fruition.
One thing to keep an eye on is how willing the Ilitch's are to having others participate in their development. With the Eddystone and Harbor Light Buildings... being on the National Register makes for some nice Historic Tax Credits. It's doubtful the Ilitch's will develop these 2 sites on their own.... but are they willing to give up the buildings to allow others to develop them as part of the Arena District? :confused:
Spot on. Once you have wrested hundreds of millions of dollars from various governments and have established that your former location may not compete with you, and then make arrangements to not pay taxes like others, for as long as -- what? 95 years? -- you're all set.Quote:
Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto
This is a heist, plain and simple. We're investing our billionaires with the powers once given to feudal lords...
Ilitch Enterprises supposedly spent millions of dollars to acquire privately-owned land for these projects. The dozens of city-owned parcels that were managed by the DDA were sold to Ilitch for $1.