LeDuff: Answers, accountability lacking as more bodies fall in Detroit

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Originally Posted by laphoque

Sure. Most able-bodied adults are not starving. And most people certainly don't muder. However, there would be fewer muders and fewer crimes if we had a more robust welfare system.

The GDP & productivity are still rising. The wages and welfare among the poorest in this country are stagnant or declining. There is no replacement job in sight for those low skill workers who once filled these plants. The US is tending to wrecklessly increase the workweek instead of shortening it to allow more people to be employed. We can afford to put more people on welfare. It would result in greater prosperity and safety if we did. It would reduce poverty and increase the likelihood that these kids are able to go to school instead of having to find a way to make it to the detriment of their schoolwork.

It has done this in all the other countries that it's been implimented in. The US spends less than 3% of GDP on this. Most other countries spend more like 8%. They have reaped enormous societal benefits from this. We argue about welfare queens and forget the names of the murder victims.

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So what you're advocating is that the taxpayers of this City, [[State, Country), should pay even more to include designer leather jackets and sneakers as part of the Social Services Program? Interesting concept. Isn't there a cell phone program like that in place already? Tell me, @ what point do you feel these "criminals" shoould start taking on responsibility for their actions?

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Originally Posted by laphoque

Sure. Most able-bodied adults are not starving. And most people certainly don't muder. However, there would be fewer muders and fewer crimes if we had a more robust welfare system.

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I like to think of myself as fairly progressive when discussing social issues and economic ways of governing a country. Furthermore, I have always viewed a "bottoms up" approach to strengthening any given issue/department/business of concern.

In this case I simply have to disagree. First, the country needs to find ways to curb spending. Your suggestion only aggravates it. Second, the welfare/safety net we have in place is far from effective. It promotes a style of life opposed to a second chance. Third, the federal gov't has proven time and again it is inefficient with huge expenditure programs like this. People take advantage of the system, and it costs even more money to root out the fraud and white collar crimes that plague such public troughs of expenditure. Lastly, even if you were able to somehow expand the budget of our safety net [[which would never happen with our current law makers) you would see more pork and grizzle attached to anything remotely helpful it would torpedo any attempt at frugally addressing the real issue.

You see, Washington is as broken as any of the hundreds of poverty-ridden regions that we currently pretend do not exist.

I think gov't money could be spent far more effectively if education was focused on getting students who are struggling into more vocational training programs. When 15-17 yr. olds are not suited to spending 6 hours in a classroom environment focus on hands-on training that is in demand in the marketplace. This ranges from manufacturing to construction to health care, etc. Combine this with the necessary math, english, computer skills along with lifeskills training. This makes far more financial sense than waiting until kids drop out, commit crimes, have babies, etc. and then throwing them into a job training program 10 years later. It's the old "ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" policy that gov't won't try because it's always focused on the short term.

the 8 to 4 office hours are a really bad decision, IMO.. yes, manpower issues, etc., but.. wow.. I wonder is this in any other major city?

I agree. Relative to theft it's more about the quick acquisition of someone else's stuff as a general pattern for 'sport'. Some homes are broken into multiple times at this point... the same thieves have the stuff stolen from them. The police don't even respond when you have clear surveillance video such a link below:

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/20...ught-on-camera

It's an expanding culture of crime I don't think we can 'pay' our way out of...

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Originally Posted by Honky Tonk

Some take advantage of these services and turn their lives around, some don't bother, and continue their life of crime.

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Originally Posted by TKshreve

I like to think of myself as fairly progressive when discussing social issues and economic ways of governing a country. Furthermore, I have always viewed a "bottoms up" approach to strengthening any given issue/department/business of concern.

In this case I simply have to disagree. First, the country needs to find ways to curb spending. Your suggestion only aggravates it. Second, the welfare/safety net we have in place is far from effective. It promotes a style of life opposed to a second chance. Third, the federal gov't has proven time and again it is inefficient with huge expenditure programs like this. People take advantage of the system, and it costs even more money to root out the fraud and white collar crimes that plague such public troughs of expenditure. Lastly, even if you were able to somehow expand the budget of our safety net [[which would never happen with our current law makers) you would see more pork and grizzle attached to anything remotely helpful it would torpedo any attempt at frugally addressing the real issue.

You see, Washington is as broken as any of the hundreds of poverty-ridden regions that we currently pretend do not exist.

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So, the way Canada does this is they give block grants to the provinces to allow them to administer their poverty reduction programs. I think that that is how it'd have to work here. I also think that this type of approach might work well in some other federal domains [[social security, medicare, medicaid, and so on) and could reduce their cost.

However, America's "need to decrease spending" is actually an artificial policy creation. If Americans want to eliminate poverty, if we want to give each American the benefit of free secondary education [[be it university or community college training), healthcare, and fix a crumbling transportation infrustracture, it is possible. America can afford this. It's disingenuous to say in, nominally, the richest country in the world that the resources do not exist. It's a question of priorities.

If Americans would demand a social safety net closer to the levels of Canada and European countries, we'd have an opportunity to design it in such a way that allow us to avoid some of the weaknesses that have cropped up there.

I'm not suggesting it's a good idea to give payouts of designer coats and shoes to people at DPD lockups or something like that. I'm suggesting that if America actually implimented programs that could realistically reduce poverty at the level the systems of other countries do, that our crime rates would probably come into line with them. That although most poor people are not criminals, most criminals are poor. And that it is silly to continously cut and limit welfare in the name of reform and be shocked when crime goes up.

Of course, at the level of the city priority one should be solving the crimes because many of the murderers are probably serial offenders.

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Originally Posted by laphoque

However, America's "need to decrease spending" is actually an artificial policy creation. If Americans want to eliminate poverty, if we want to give each American the benefit of free secondary education [[be it university or community college training), healthcare, and fix a crumbling transportation infrustracture, it is possible. America can afford this. It's disingenuous to say in, nominally, the richest country in the world that the resources do not exist. It's a question of priorities.

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Bingo! You hit it on the mark there.

But what you're proposing will never happen in America. The "me first!!!" culture is way too entrenched.

Many Americans will agree to have the military march off these folks off to concentration camps for their deaths before that.

Finagle them to start killing each other similar to the Mexican drug cartels. Spread rumors about snitches in their midst and let them thin themselves out.